Why can’t modern washing machines rinse properly?

I am over the moon that i found this website. The problem in all this is that people wash more these days and the eco washing mashines had to be invented to help reducing pollution. I think that the problem is not only in rinsing cycles but also in washing cycle. i have a washing maschine in my rented appartment in which you cannot see the water durring the washing cycle and at the beginning of each rinsing cycle. i end up pouring a bucket and half of water in my washing maching each time and i rinse it several time after the cycle is finished which means that the automatic washing mashine becomes half automatic really. I add water for the wash cycle mainly so my clothes does not rub against each other but against the soapy water which prevents the clothes being ruined after few washes. the saddest thing is that manufacturers are promoting their water reducing technologies as their selling point because most consumers will want to know how much they can save and not how good it will wash and rinse. the manual for the washing machine in my appartment says that the reason why i cannot see any water durring the washing cycle is because they have managed to reduce the water usage by half
using new technologies. very proud, well done, haha! are people really that thick?

Please moderate the comment if neccesary, English is not my first language.

I am glad I’m NOT the only person who has experienced ongoing problems re very poor rinse function in modern washing machines. It has driven me to distraction, because not only do I suffer from a severe skin disorder that requires a lot of oily cream, but I suffer from Asthma as well.

Most washing powders do not dissolve the cream, even on the hottest wash, unless I add more powder. But then I find the low water consumption machines do not rinse the powder out, not even after three extra rinses, hence the laundry smell hideous which then effects my Asthma. I have tried all brands of washing powder, liquids and echo balls, but to no avail. I tried reducing the washing load, but still no joy. I tried a short wash, followed by a boil main wash, plus two additional rinses at the end, but still my clothes are not as clean as they use to be! When on a rinse cycle the water level does not even reach the lower silver rim inside the door, it can’t even be seen and it certainly never soaks or covers my washing! I called a plumber to check my mains water pressure level and that was OK, so the problem is definitely due to a ridiculously low water allocation feature, built in the washing machine

I eventually tried adding Soda Crystals to the main wash and that has helped a little. But the point is, I’m still having to run:
a short wash with powder, followed by
a main wash at 95 with powder and soda crystals + extra rinse, followed by
an addition 2 complete rinse cycles

So in order to get one half load of washing done, my Hotpoint Aquarius TW540 is on for nearly 4 hours and I’m sure the number of programs I have to run, uses far more water than the older models (pre 1990). Still with all that palaver the results are very poor compared to the old type washing machines.

I have even considered buying a twin tub, but all the old machines are now obsolete and non of the new twin tubs have heaters in them, so that’s no good either as they won’t dissolve my cream

By the way, regarding washing powder I have found the most clean smelling (more like traditional powders) is Asda’s Eco-friendly, or Wilkingson’s, the rest smell synthetic and absolutely hideous.

I have had my skin disorder all my life, yet I never had laundry problems like this years ago. That tells me, that modern machines do not work as efficiently as the old ones, because they do not use enough water in the rinse cycles. No matter how the manufacturers try to explain or justify their product, the end result is far from satisfactory for the consumers with health problems! It seems as if our health needs are being overlooked by the manufacturers, who even fail to give us choice. And it is NOT good enough!

Conclusion: the echo label may be a selling point in theory, but in practice, low water consumption washing machines are not fit for purpose (re cleanliness), they also exasperate our health problems. Because it is unanimously agreed that modern washers do not rinse well enough, due to ridiculously low water allocation. So the Echo call in practice is false economy, and I’m fed-up with the dribble.

Solution: going by the number of posts on this message board from people experiencing the same problem, it seems the problem is sufficiently widespread. Thus indicating that there is clear need for manufacturers to reconsider the design of their machines, to start meeting special health criteria. There would be a market for a special health needs type washing machine, one that can wash at high temperature and which uses a lot more water to rinse. In such a health machine, the water level needs to cover all the laundry and it needs to rinse at least three times!

I shall send a copy of this posting to Hotpoint, and I advise that other people do likewise to their manufacturer. I’ve certainly had enough of the health hazard dribble machines’

best wishes to you all,
From Judy

Thanks for that info Ben am so tired of these washing machine and if this site is any thing to go by we are one of many too. i will go buy these two products ,can you tell me the brand of the liquid soap flakes please and how many mL does the capsule hold.

I have also been adding Arms & Hammer baking soda to the Towels last rinse .

Friday I went down to the Miele centre to look at the w5740 and watched a load of washing go round and when I pointed out the soap left in the last rinse before softener added and you will laugh at this,she said the water is cloudy because it leave a film on the clothes, that is what makes them smell nice.

And here is stupid me washing for only the last 30yrs wasting my time trying to rinse it out.

Gemma

I am on my second washing machine in 4 weeks ,my old Miele broke down so bought another and it will be returned this Wednesday as I will not rinse the clothes and I can’t afford to run it, my water bill will be double the amount , I have bought a cheaper model while I try seek a model 12 -15 years old .
I have weighed my washing, worked out the detergent per kg to see if this helped ,I have even stood and added more water to the rinse to clear as last resort I add white vinegar i ,so I have had to rinse by hand.

I have never been so screwed in all my life , putting one load on means 3hrs standing trying to rinse .
I have many questions like getting on to the soap companies and asking them how much do they advise because if I were to use their amounts i might as well thrown the clothes out and the answer well every one is different.

With these new water saving washing machine has anyone tested the amount of powder to water and why for the love of god does your washing swish around for 15 minutes in the same water what logic .
If you are having the same problem are you willing to send me your problem as if I can get enough people I will approach dispatches etc and see if they will investigates this problem someone has too
GEMMA

One day I will probably replace my Zanussi-Electrolux with an old Zanussi ZFL1023 – this looks a good machine and it was made at a time when Zanussi were good quality washing machines, about 1989 – 1990?

My question is: If it has hot and cold fill inlet valves, is it possible to use a TMV and a “Y” connector so both inlet valves receive warm water from the TMV?

I’m getting tired of adding jug after jug of hot water into my my washing machine, but it’s the only way to get the soap out of everything. It would be nice to use an “old” washing machine that uses higher water levels and spends longer performing the rinses.

Afternoon Andy,

Bosch – never sudslocks, with any detergent.
Hotpoint – always sudslocks. This is down to bad programming and cannot be altered.
Siltal – never sudslocks anymore, now it uses a sufficient anount of water to wash and rinse, since I altered the pressure switch.

The Bosch and Siltal both have their own stand pipes, so no problem there, the filters are spotless, they have the normal drain hose with no extensions and the stand pipes are with in the guide lines. It is just the fact certain detergents are too soapy for certain machines,so when interim spinning it all foams up between the inner and outer drum and there for fills the lot up with foam and thus cannot be pumped away. The situation is now sorted as Persil works fine and unlike Ariel is not too soapy, it was mainly a detergent issue.

It is just more apparent as modern washing machines spin straight after the wash, do not rinse with very much water so the detergent is not diluted as well, so when spinning just turns to foam.

Don’t use the Hotpoint much these days, only for large items, when I use it I hook the drain hose over the edge of the (don’t laugh!) bathroom sink and I have installed a special blanked off washing machine tap in there too for this purpose, saves moving the Bosch out of the way!

Oliver.

Really interesting thread. Yet another person here who is suffering from skin irritation from poorly rinsed washing.Like several others who’ve contributed here my bedding is cotton and most of my clothes are cotton. The synthetics – which I wash very rarely – rinse fine. In my view if a machine can not rinse towels/sheets/jeans properly it is not fit for purpose.

I find it particularly annoying that the manufacturers will not provide information on rinsing performance. I rate Miele as a firm but when I asked them about how their machines performed they said their rinsing was “excellent” but couldn’t provide any data to back it up. So how do they know it’s excellent???

I asked JLP why they didn’t supply rinsing information for their machines – answer was because the manufacturers would all have to agree apparently and they will not do so until someone forces them to do so.

Like several others I am not “allergic” nor do I have especially sensitive skin and have washed my clothes with out any problems for the last 30 years!

It took me 3 years to work out what was causing it and having done so I am taking it up with the retailer in the hope that they will put pressure on the manufacturer. I am quite willing to take them to the small claims court if necessary. In response to my written complaint they have paid for the service call to establish whether any fault with the machine. Which there isn’t – engineer confirmed that all was working to manufacturer’s criteria.

Interestingly he was suffering from exactly the same problem (itchy skin) since buying a new machine two years ago. There must be a lot of us about…….

I never had any problem before in my life with itchy skin until these stupid EEC regulations came into play such that only an eggcupfull of water is allowed into the machine, and no cold rinse. It is a travesty, and I say yah boo sucks to the EEC. I rinse my clothes by hand in hot water in the sink, and am now starting to have nice fluffy towels and clothes once more. It has taken time, it has taken gallons of water and doubtless the death of thousands of trees due to all the extra carbon, but I am getting there. I wash everything at 60 degrees, with a soak and a pre-wash selected. I put in 1 scoop of “Vanish” and this seems to be doing the trick.

The secret to soft fluffy clothes is rinsing in LOTS of water, preferably warm or even more preferably hot. Of course, some fabrics won’t take this treatment, but as I have said before, I prefer natural fibres of cotton and linen, and all my towels, bed linens and most of my clothes are fine on high temperatures. Anything synthetic is washed at 40 degrees, but I have very little that is synthetic.

Oliver I’m with you on the whole colour care thing. I use it pretty much-just in case on loads that have nice clothes in, but if its just a load of say trackies, joggers, rough t shirts, underwear etc I will use biological even on dark’s. There is a noticeable amount of fading around the seams but that’s it really black joggers are still black and not a washed out grey as the adverts would make you think. I think with me it’s just the principle that if I spent £40 on a top I want to take care of it, and I will do, but seeming as at the moment the majority of my wardrobe is from Primark at £3 or £4 a piece, colour care doesn’t seem worth it on these items.

Of course, I also wash some of my mums M&S, Edinburgh Woollen Mill, and Debenhams stuff, and I daren’t use anything but colour care or 30*C for fear of my mother’s wrath lol.

The latest adverts make me laugh for Vanish. Scaring people into using the new Extra Hygiene stuff but if the mum on the advert washed the sheets on 60*C cottons instead of a 30 minute quick wash.. need I say more? I will admit to buying a tub of this, simply on an impulse, and is probably the biggest waste of £3 so far this year, I might as well have invested in a bumper bar of Galaxy :).

Jon

The only way you can efficiently rinse laundry is with HOT or at worst WARM water. That is the bottom line as far as I am concerned. A cold rinse will never ever ever rinse clothes, it is a scientific fact.

I am having some fairly good results with my newly restored Miele using the pre-wash option, so that the clothes are at least semi-rinsed in hot water – by virtue of the fact that at least some of the detergent has been dispensed during the pre-wash.

None of this would be necessary if modern washing machine were not restricted by ridiculously low water levels, and cold rinses. Yet again, I will reiterate that it is SCIENTIFIC FACT THAT YOU CANNOT RINSE LAUNDRY EFFECTIVELY IN COLD WATER. You need warm or hot water, and plenty of it. That is the bottom line.

I used fabric conditioner on towels in the past, but now I use clear vinegar on towels to be sure any remaining detergent has been neutralised. They don’t come out stinking of vinegar and dry without any smell.

The label on laundry detergents should recommend using half the recommended amount for half loads (obviously taking into account the recommended dosage for water hardness and level of soiling, and using half of that). I try to wash full loads all the time, but sometimes you can’t avoid having to wash less than a full load.

If you can avoid using too much detergent in the first place then there’s less to be rinsed away, however you need to use the right amount to avoid limescale and a whole load of other problems like a smelly washing machine! I wonder if using less water for rinsing is leaving detergent in the outer tub and causing the smells and grease etc. – especially above the drum?

I have made quite a few comments on this thread in the past but I thought I should say that we appear to have stumbled on a satisfactory solution (for our particular circumstances at least). We have an old Miele W919 which has a “Water Plus” feature which introduces more water if selected. On its own this feature did not solve the problem. The water level is detected by a tube which dips into the water, and which which has at the other end a pressure sensor. We shortenned the tube to “fool” the sensor and cause more water to be drawn in. Again this on its own did not solve the problem satisfactorily.

We now use the Ecover concentrated Biological powder with this setup and no longer need to perform multiple additional hot water hand rinses by hand or using machine wash cycles as before. We have NOT found the Ecover liquid to be as effective and nor the non-biological powder.

Hope this helps. Someone should tell Ecover that they have unintentionally stumbled upon a geat marketing opportunity!

Hi all

Well I have just ordered from Lakeland’s anti-limescales balls to see if this helps as am using only 10mls of powder.
I do agree with you Ben and Barbara regarding amounts of washing powder ,I even bought Vernon Schmidt book( sad I know) that says as all front loaders use a 1/3 water we should be using 1/3 detergent .

So if persil says use 135mls for a full load a 1/3 = 45MLS but I even find this too much and only ever used half of that ,so that is why I started weighing my washing and now using about 10mls = 2 teasp of MIELE or Persil washing powder for 1/2 load. I have never had a full load yet thats 6kg cottons and 3kg easy care.

It’s amazing when you think you have a full load only to fine that your lucky to have 2kg of washing when weighed.
The cottons are the worse towels , jeans etc and next month I shall get some dolly balls from Lakeland’s just to see if they do help get rid of the soap and softer towels , read some of the reviews that are there before buying though.

I can’t find my glasses so please excuse the spelling and grammar .

stressed Gemma

I Also wanted to ask the question above re soap suds , except i did use powder previous to running the machine empty with just bleach, the whole drum was filled with soap suds, I used a 90 degree wash.
Thanks Barbara.

Hi All

Just plumbed in zanussi zwf 12070w1 washing machine ,cheap one till I can get my hands on an old one.

I have a question, i have too pour in 2 litres of water to activate the eco valve, if I don’t do this will I get more water in ?
As when I asked zanussi they said I had to or I will get greased all over the washing, my husband did his call lo l(first time ) and got annoyed as he cannot get his head around where this grease would come from and they had no guy we could speak too about the workings of the machine .
It beggars belief why on earth they have these call centres.

I have been commenting on the “I Want A Hot And cold Fill Washing Machine” which is mostly men, their advice however has been very helpful, both these sites should unite as we are all unhappy with “cold only fill” and not enough water to give the results of hot and cold fill. The length of time dissatisfaction has been posted on this site makes we think that we are stuck with this problem. I am considering replacing my top range machine for a reconditioned hot and cold fill.

I haven’t read all the other comments, so apologies if I’m repeating things. I think it’s vital that we reduce our water consumption, particularly our use of drinking water for non-food uses (washing clothes, flushing the loo, etc). Personally I blame the rinsing problems on modern detergents. If you’ve ever hand-washed a jumper with laundry detergent, you’ll know how many rinses it takes to get all the soap out – in fact, you probably gave up rinsing even though you knew there was still detergent in your jumper. On the other hand, if you use a neutral baby shampoo (which is recommended in some knitting books), you can get out all the soap in two rinses. I do have an allergic reaction (asthma) to the perfumes in Persil etc, so I use an eco-friendly un-perfumed detergent called Bio-D. I also usually use the ‘quick wash’ option on my machine which reduces the amount of water used and the length of the rinse cycle. I’ve never noticed a problem with soap residue in my laundry. What’s more, my detergent’s completely biodegradable and not harmful to aquatic life, and therefore the discarded rinse water isn’t polluting our waterways. Many washes (eg bathroom towels) don’t really need detergent at all – warm water’s enough to clean them. Or you could try soapnuts.

I have a Miele washer that I bought in 2004 and have no problem with rinses at all. Everything comes out sparkling clean. May be mine is one of the older one that has “power” rinse….I dont know. But what I do know is that I never use the amount of detergent that they (the detergent box or whatever) recommend. Right now I am using Tide HE (form my colors)and Persil white (for my whites). And I only use about 1/8 cup. (Mind you we have soft water in Vancouver.) I think over all we use too much detergent/soap/shampoo/toothpaste than needed. For those that has rinse problem, try using less detergent. You need to find the right amount for the water(hardness) in your area. Experiment!!! and use the least needed. Save money and the planet.

Has anyone else found that too many companies use too many foam boosters in detergents? I have been using Ecover concentrated and even that produces too much foam. Is it me or does it seem that since concentrated detergents came out their cleaning performance has gone down the drain as well as excess bubbles? I have found using the top named brands now a waste of money as none of them work including Persil. So would i be better off just using cheap own brand detergents? Could i use Granny’s soap flakes instead. I am very dubious about using soap based cleaning agents in case i ruin the washing machine.

Simon

I think “suds locking” refers to the situation where the foam gets trapped between rinses and does not get flushed away. Either the pump gets switched off too soon, before all of the soapy water has a chance to be pumped out completely and/or the foam does not get flushed out between the drum and outer tub.

I don’t know if the leftover foam itself is full of the detergent chemicals that the rinses are trying to remove, but I have noticed this foam does not get flushed away properly. This is more a problem if I wash a smaller load and use the recommended dosage (even WITHOUT soda crystals I’ve seen lots of foam!!). Best thing I found for small loads – to avoid excess foam – is to use 2/3 or 1/2 the minimum dosage and always use soda crystals to prevent limescale, if you don’t live in a “soft water” area.

Thinking back, I remember adding 1/2 a drum of cold water when re-rinsing and not seeing many soapsuds appear, but now that I add 1/2 a drum of hot water, you can really see the soapsuds and if you pause the washing machine for a few minutes, you can see the soap “fizz” out of the clothes soaking in this warm water. It must be doing something and Mira’s comment #388 says about baby clothes recommending rinsing in warm water.

Miele have a Water Plus option that increases the water level to 1/3 up the door for rinsing and just lapping at the bottom of the glass on wash. However most Miele machines only do 2 rinses, which is not sufficient at all. Some have the option to add a third rinse but they still do not rinse properly.

Oliver all due respect, but as I’ve mentioned way up in the thread, the 4-5 year old Miele machine mum has at home which does 2 rinses as standard rinses more than sufficiently with 2 default rinses and using mainly Ariel or Persil detergents. While all but one of us has moved out her machine has had to deal with 3 people with sensitive skin over the years, and we’ve both found it to be better at washing AND rinsing than any of the previous machines, including the Bosch it replaced which did a mediocre job with 4 with Rinse Plus, and the previous Hotpoint’s dating from the early-mid and late 90s respectively.

Saying that I have recently moved into a flat with an el-cheapo standard issue Beko, and have to say that does a surprisingly good job at washing and rinsing rinse water is always clear by the 2nd rinse even if you use the Quick wash which does 2 as standard, and can do up to 4 if you select the extra rinse. I did have an incident with Asda tablets, which seemed to froth into oblivion and would interfere with the first few interim spins, but even then that was dealt with by the 2nd rinse. Gone back to branded stuff (despite still having half a box of Asda stuff left) and not had a problem with rinsing at all.

It’s interesting to say the least how we all get different results with different machines and powder.

Mira old washing machines were indeed hooked up to hot and cold, but most machines only utilised the hot tap to fill the wash water on washes at 60 degrees or above. None, if any of the European front loaders produced in the last 40 years have ever used warm rinsing only the standard cold water rinse, the new LG’s with the Medic Rinse aside. The warm rinse option has long been available on American top-loaders, however, but are a rarity in this country.

Jon

It is not only the fact modern washing machines do not rinse properly but they do not spin at high enough speed on the spins between the rinses to get all the soap out. I have bought an old Hotpoint 9506 electronic de luxe and it gets all the soap out and only takes 55-60 minutes to do a 60 degrees wash and 4 rinses with water 1/3 up the door glass on washes and rinses. No residue left at all though you can faintly smell some fragrance but perfumes these days seem to survive rinsing no matter how much water is used. But i have plunged towels in hot water after rinsing in the Hotpoint and absolutely no residue using Persil, Ariel, Daz, Bold or Fairy. I can use conventional powders, liquids etc and they do not over foam at all.

I believe the powders/liquids over foam in these stupid pathetic attempts of modern machines is because the detergent doesn’t have enough water to mix with and there its mainly washing in neat detergent where as the older models ‘water it down’ with extra water they use in the wash process. I will say this that i think the detergents made of all brands back in the 80’s and 90’s were way better than what we have now including powders. Washing at 30 degrees is a gimmick and only useful for freshening clothes but as usual the ‘so called environmental brigade’ think they know best when they haven’t got a clue!

Don’t know if anyone has tried but next time you go into Currys, Comet or Bennetts and complain about the rubbish rinsing of modern machines you just get fobbed off with ‘They are excellent at rinsing’, ‘They are energy efficient’, ‘Better for the environment’. One man told me in an independant store said that modern machines were better at rinsing lol I felt like wacking him one lol Neither the retailers or manufacturers want to know and its down to individuals to pressurise and demand better machines!

Hope all that helps.

Simon

HI ALL,
I have sat in front of my washing machine for hours watching the washing cycles very fed up with it all now, so where to go from here with my washing problem, which is after the washing is dry you pick it up and it feels like a load of pins sticking in your hands and lower arms also put a t shirt over your head you the have it on your eye lids a bit like fibre glass loft insulation feel ! and as for putting your hands in your pockets to get keys or coins out.

It is not detergent which is left on my washing i, it is lime which has bonded on the clothes in the wash like dust or fine grit and this is after cold and hot rinses but this lime also has some thing from the washing powder or liquid with it as well a chemical reaction has taken place in the wash i think ? as i can put neat washing powder or liquid on my arm and have no problem with it ( dont try this at home???) .

With what i was told today even calgon does not help and people now find it no longer works with the new powders and liquids , as i found out too using the correct amount? I now using ECOVER DELICATE and SURCARE CONDITIONER which after a few washes this week does look like it is working so far , but still with an extra rinse,
Also i am going to fit WPRO MAGNET PLUG from comet to my washing machine as other people in hard water areas now fit to there washing machine as a water conditioner.
GOOD LUCK OUT THERE ,HOPE THE ABOVE HELPS
ADY.

Washerhelp:

I DO NOT HAVE AN ALLERGY !!

However, in common with most people, if a large amount of detergent is left in my laundry, it will cause me to have eczema/psoriasis/dermetitis, particularly on the “sweaty” areas such as backs of the knees, elbows, middle of the back area (where, in the case of ladies, the bra strap sits). My husband finds that he has a particular problem in the more sensitive areas (not to put too fine a point on it), if I do not rinse out his underwear by hand in hot water after I have washed it in the Miele.

But neither of us have an allergy.

HI ALL,
When the washing powder or liquid leaves you with a
itch or burning, and i think you know what i mean ! after you use the right amount.
Take it back to shop where you bought it from tell the them
product is no good and get refund , it costs the makers more
money that way when the shop gets the money back from
the makers IT COSTS THEM MORE to refund the shop .
Pay back time after you have to rewash all your clothes
again thats if they do rinse the chemicals out which have
stuck to the lime particals on your clothes which i have now found out is the problem after a lot of tests.
So Washerhelp man or woman can you give an answer why the
particals no longer rinse out when they did before on a
normal wash with the use of the correct amount of washing
powder or liquids even after more extra rinses .
Thank you for the ecover tip simon .
ADY.

Does anyone on here know anything about where the Optical brightener Distryl Biphenyl derivative comes from? Have asked numerous detergent manufacturers but as usual they never reply. Simon

Ahh the WMA30s. Yours would be a couple years younger than you think they came out in 2000 and believe it or not Indesit kept the basic design on Hotpoint machines until as late as last year when the Wales factory closed. But they were their first A wash performance machines though hence why they have the long cycles as you say. Powerhouse they were still around our way until about 4 years ago, we bought our old AEG dishwasher there (I say old, we bought it in 2005 but sold it 6 months later when we got a new kitchen) they always seemed to be far more helpful than the two C’s.

Persil small and mighty isn’t a bad product, although it does foam more than the tablets I’m using. Always seems to be going for quite cheap too, often Sains or Asda have the huge bottles for £4, if its not selling for £4 in one supermarket it generally is in another. Seems a lot more simpler a concept than the gels too the gels certainly perform well but are less value for money. The big bottles sell for £8 I think for only 25 washes or so. I remember you used to be able to buy a huge bottle of Ariel liquid, 50 washes or so, with change from a fiver.

I’ve heard about Amway stuff here and there but not seen it anywhere I presume it’s only available from specialist places?

Jon

In the ideal world Oliver, every washing machine would be like your Bosch WFF2000 and would work fine with Persil Biological on its own. In reality, modern washing machines don’t use enough water, limescale is a nuisance in my “hard water” area and I don’t think many people with expensive designer clothes would wash them at 60C, even if they can. You rarely see wash labels on new garments that recommending washing above 40C.

I’m suspicious that detergent packets recommend using too much – countless times I’ve used the “recommended” amount and seen lots of foam. If using less than recommended can cause limescale damage, then soda crystals are the ideal solution. I’m sure people who have problems with rinsing are probably using much less detergent than recommended, but they risk causing other problems like a dirty washing machine, grease, limescale and mould. Again, soda crystals will allow people to use less detergent without risking limescale damage (in all but “soft” water areas) and improve rinsing because there’s less detergent in the first place. However, regular hot washes are needed to keep the washing machine clean inside.

If soda crystals are known to cause damage to drum spiders, the makers of soda crystals should be contacted immediately!!

Reading through the comments, some of you seem to know a lot about detergents and rinsing. You could e-mail every major washing machine manufacturer and pass on your findings. Since there are only a few manufacturers who make different brands e.g. Electrolux make Zanussi and AEG and others, it won’t take very long to visit the manufacturer’s website and e-mail them with your knowledge. It could help us all, especially the hot rinsing idea and why it works. Alternatively, write to each companies’ head office. :)

See also “Who owns who? Who really makes your washing machine?

Can anyone help with problem of very hard towels etc. I have a Miele W3240 and ever since it was installed my towels and other articles feel like stiff cardboard when they dry. As I was sure the conditioner section could not have been working I called out the Miele engineer he stated the machine was perfect and gave no help or explanation as to why the clothes are so hard.

I also have a Bosch Classixx, Ceejay, which I bought last July, and I’ve also noticed the slightly strange smell that the washing has, so I’m glad you mentioned it. It’s really irritating, and even hand rinsing clothes numerous times in lots of water doesn’t entirely get rid of it. I was wondering if it was something to do with the machine itself. However, today I was hit with a bit of inspiration, and I think I may have finally found out what it is. So this is what I did:

I found 3 old flannels that have never been washed in the Bosch, therefore they could not have any remnants of the odd smell from previous washings. Then I hand washed each flannel the same way, changing only one thing – the amount of water. The constants were 30 degrees temp for the wash, cold water for rinsing, and exactly the same amount of powder in each wash – a very small dose appropriate for the size of item. I squeezed out the flannel a bit after the wash and each rinse, and then as much as I could after the final rinse to simulate a good spin.

First, I attempted to simulate the Bosch style of washing – low water in wash, 3 rinses in low water. The result was a lot of foam in the wash phase, and still lots of foam on the third rinse, crackling on top of the water.

Second, I used lots of water in the wash phase, and lots in the 3 rinses. The result was no foam in the wash phase, just a few bubbles which would quickly dissipate. The final rinse had no bubbles at all.

Third, I used a small amount of water in the wash phase, followed by lots in the 3 rinses. There was lots of foam as before, which did NOT rinse out despite three deep rinses! I have to say I was a bit surprised by this.

The flannels are now all hanging up drying. Flannel 1 has the icky smell. Flannel 2 has no smell. Flannel 3 also has the icky smell, but maybe a bit less than flannel 1.

I have to conclude from this that the wash phase needs to have more water, and that if it did, the washing would smell fresher, and rinsing would be much easier.

Does fabric conditioner help with rinsing? If people don’t have time to re-run entire programmes without detergent and instead they try running a “rinse and spin” cycle (on machines that have that option) after the washing machine has finished, I wonder if you use fabric conditioner first time round and then re-rinse, could it help rinsing?

I know fabric conditioner permeates deep into the clothing fibres, more so than water alone. If we try re-rinsing clothes after the softener has been added, would this help remove more detergent? Just a thought.

Has anyone tried using chlorine bleach instead of powder bleach in the machine to bleach whites? Wondered if it would damage the machine? Also is it safe to use soda crystals in washing machines? Mine is a Hotpoint WMA30 model so think its got an aluminium drum?
Also i am looking to replace it though with a Hotpoint 9506 model or that series so if anyone knows whereabouts is best to look would be most helpful. Im in Sudbury, Suffolk. Hotpoint also used to make a washing machine that had a purple door, control dial, buttons and dispenser and think it was called Super de Luxe but wanted one of those in particular as they were very reliable. Not sure if they are about any more though.

Oliver Shaw – you are a very lucky man. You have a modern washing machine that rinses effectively! I am madly jealous. I am continuing to resort to hand rinsing, in combination with using the cold water wool wash cycle on the Miele to rinse the clothes as well. This actually works quite well, the clothes are still soapy, but nowhere near as bad as they used to be.

I will continue to stick to my mantra that you cannot rinse clothes in anything but hot water … cold water will not rinse soap out of clothes, only hot or maybe warm water will. Hence my hot hand rinses.

Oliver: it is extraordinary that you are getting good rinse performance from your machine, and I am not.

We have moderately hard water here – hard enough for the kettle to get that brown scale on it – do you have soft water? Maybe this might be at least part of the answer?

I think the fact that LG have taken the trouble to add a warm rinse is confirmation that temperature is a key factor in rinsing efficiency. In the numerous tests that I have done in the past I am absolutely certain that conditioner was not involved since I was not using the stuff. I have even conducted serial tests on new towels which shows that the more they are washed the more detergent they seem to accumulate. The amount of detergent retained in clothes depends on the material. Natural fibres such as cotton are the worst. Try the test again Oliver but do it with the towels themselves. The idea of using a thermostatic valve is attractive – I will look into this but my next washing machine will be an LG!

For anyone who is tempted to try warm rinsing: I was amazed at the results of warm rinsing when I done my 40 degrees cottons wash.

Having first performed the pre-wash, using detergent for the pre-wash only, then running another cycle without detergent, I decided to do a bit more. I run the hot tap and added the hot water for the cold rinses. With all that extra water and it being slightly warmer, I couldn’t believe the amount of soap bubbles I could see!! Clothes that you think are rinsed properly STILL contain detergent!!

It seems that warmer water does help rinsing, as Nikki Jenkins says in several comments above. I did have a towel on the floor below the detergent drawer, as you may spill some water.

Yes it’s a bit of hassle, but it doesn’t take long to pour in jugfuls of hot water. I’d rather spend just a few minutes adding hot water and fiddling with the controls, it’s much better than paying the price with angry skin allergies!! Also, I’d rather be at home when the washing machine is running, having read the section of this site on “Appliance safety warnings & recalls”. I don’t trust appliances and it’s better to be around and deal with a bad situation (which will hopefully never happen), than come home and find the kitchen flooded or worse! Not trying to go off-topic.

I’ve yet to try this warm rinsing on towels and I’m wary about delicates. If anyone else has luck with warm rinsing, please post a comment, as I’m very pleased. There is light at the end of the tunnel. :)

I’m aware some people have their washing machine in a location away from a hot tap. I don’t know if you can make a washing machine fill with water at 30 degrees every time without turning down the hot water for the whole house? If you only wash cottons, maybe the hot water connection is fine, if you don’t mind things coming out creased?

On a note about detergents, do tablets contain less ‘filler’ material than powders? Forget to ask that when I mentioned liquid detergents.

On the subject of water temperature and rinsing you have probably noticed that if you want to clean something then hot water is better. This is because its easier to dissolve something (the dirt) in hot water. In fact of couse this is why washing machines warm the water for wash cycles. For most solids the higher the temperature of the solvent (water) the more material is dissolved.

Some modern detergents are made to try to overcome this to some extent but even these only really start to dissolve at about 32 degrees. The temperature of a cold rinse will be as cold as the water from the cold tap which is much colder than this.
If you want to see this for yourself then take one of those towels you have got which are stiff as a board because of the detergent residue and rinse it in cold water by hand. Then after this rinse it in hot water – you will be shocked at the difference.

This of course is why many people on this thread complain of foaming in their washing machine when they have got towels in there!

We used to have a hot and cold fill hoover keymatic years ago which would do a hot or warm rinse and I used hoses from the hot and cold taps to fill our old twin tub with warm water for rinsing.

Of course I accept that the reduced water volumes in modern washing machines are a factor but in my experience temperature is even more important.

~The Miele is still in bits, although at last hubby has all the parts needed to replace the bearing and fit the two drums back into the machine and put everything back together – hopefully! If it works, I have decided that what I will do is set the machine up to wash in the middle of the night, when our electricity is at its cheapest, and then leave it standing in the machine all day, and then set it up to wash again the following night, but this time with no detergent. It will then “test” one or two bits of laundry by rinsing them by hand, and if they are reasonably soap free, then that will do. If not, the machine will be set up again to do a third soap free wash.

We can’t rig our washing machine up to the hot water fill – because our hot water is heated by our Coalbrookdale wood burner, as well as by the oil boiler and an immersion too if we want, the water would often be far too hot – although it has to be said all our clothes and laundry are cotton or linen, I hate artificial stuff, but I do have some delicate wool jerseys and underwear that needs to be washed on cool. So that, sadly, is not an option. I shall just have to stick with the method as described above, or rinse by hand. I am looking into the white vinegar route if I can find a supermarket or chinese shop that will sell me white vinegar in bulk.

Does anyone find that premium brands i.e. Persil are worth the price? I have found Sainsburys own brand laundry products as good. Also washing powder contains plastic ‘fillers’ and bulking agents (sodium sulfate) and that can’t be good for the clothes or the machine? Always have used a liquid as it rinses better but do a maintenance wash once a month with powder containing oxygen bleach.

Maybe the advice for washing in hot programmes – 60 degrees or higher, is to use a little less detergent if the excess foaming is a problem. It sure is for me. Avoid washing small loads if possible, I find that creates too much foam at any temperature.

One of the advantages of re-running programmes without detergent (after the first spin) is the first ‘wash’ of the second programme without detergent acts as a warm rinse. However, I can imagine if a washing machine performed, say, 4 rinses with the water temperature at 40 degrees and using lots of water every time, your electric bill would be very high! It would also take ages from start to finish!! Unless it was filling from the hot water supply?

If warm rinsing is a must, one risky method could be to pour a kettle full of hot (not boiling!) water into the rinsing water, once the machine has filled with cold water, if you can.

Rod : a Miele engineer reprogrammed the electronics on my machine in an attempt to bring in more water, but it didn’t bring in enough, so he then cut something – I think it was a pipe – which brings in more, but still not enough.

I want to try and buy an older machine that uses plenty of water to rinse properly. Can anyone please tell me when the new generation of water rationed machines came on the market? In other words, how old does a machine have to be to wash properly with plenty of water?

It’s around 2 years since I posted my thread about how disappointed I was and still am with the poor rinsing performance of ALL modern-day front loading washing machines. Someone made the comment about white vinegar being very good at helping to remove detergent left in clothing, particularly towels. I can confirm that it is absolutely brilliant. However, I have failed to find anywhere who sell it in bulk. You can buy brown malt vinegar in bulk from places like Daily Bread in Northampton, but not white vinegar. Does anyone know of anywhere? I found one website, but the delivery charges were prohibitive.

If this topic was featured on prime time television, I wonder if a TV documentary, with interviews from allergy sufferers affected by washing machines, would cause a massive public response?

I feel sorry for people who have spent a fortune on a brand new washing machine and soon discover they are suffering allergy hell from clothing that is far from “rinsed”!!

I’m aware that many people just blame the detergent type/brand only, but the terrible truth is down to their washing machine not rinsing well, even if the “extra rinse” option is always enabled.

My eczema has cleared up completely since re-rinsing everything on a water-guzzling cycle (without detergent). It takes over an hour longer, but I don’t care. When my washing machine eventually dies, I will definitely buy an old second-hand “water-guzzling” replacement.

(Formerly called “WhatMatters”).

Hi, I am writing another posting as I’ve discovered on the Which? website a washing machine rated “very poor” for rinsing on the cottons cycle is a “Best Buy”. Get this: Which? suggests using the “easy care” programme if you have sensitive skin, as there is no extra rinse option. However the cleaning is not as good on this washing machine’s “easy care” programme.

Due to copyright I can’t reveal the make/model.

It is alarming that a washing machine that is very poor at rinsing with no extra rinse can be awarded a “Best Buy”. At least Which? warn you about the very poor rinsing.

As I put earlier, if you own a modern washing machine, you have to force it to rinse better. Has anyone had any luck with this?

It’s always the simplest solutions that work best. I would think every washing machine made in the past 10 years can be forced to re-rinse, whether it involves switching off and turning the dial back to the beginning of the rinse cycles or something else.

Anyway… I thought I’d try this “easy” method and re-rinse. I used the rinse-hold option on my machine, so the clothes are left in water until I’m ready to advance the programme: I turned the selector to “off”, added the fabric conditioner, turned the dial selector to the “rinse” position and choose the correct spin speed. Switched on and let it do the rinses again and perform the final spin.

So far so good :)
Clothes no longer feel like sandpaper, there’s no smell of detergent perfumes, no little white marks on the clothes and no traces of foam on the door seal or inner door glass. What a difference!!

You may want to forget my previous suggestions and other drastic ideas mentioned previously. Anyone can do this re-rinsing and it really works (preferably if you have “rinse hold” on your machine, it reminds you to re-rinse). Also you won’t need to press the “extra rinse” option (or whatever it’s called on your machine). Ironically, I found that by NOT pressing the “extra rinse” button, the machine spins faster between the rinses (without sudslocking), I have no idea why.

Only one thing to be careful with: if you have to select the spin speed when you re-run the rinse cycles, be careful not to spin your delicates too fast e.g. curtains or they won’t look nice afterwards!

Readers – please let me know if this works after trying it for a few weeks. One last thing: fabric conditioner can also chemical sensitivity, something to consider if you’re having allergic reactions to laundry and chemicals.

Thanks for reading and good luck. :D

There is a simple way to get more water into the drum for better rinsing.Every washing machine contains a water level transducer to which are connected tubes from the drum.When the water reaches a certain level in the drum,the pressure transducer activates and sends a signal to the electronics to close the water inlet valve.

However there are ‘adjustable tuning slugs’ on the pressure transducer so that the level of water can be adjusted.I experimented on a Hotpoint and manage to get the drum completely full of water!.So careful how you make adjustments.

I am a retired electronics engineer and would love to design a washing machine complete with PID temperature control,brushless motor, etc etc.but I’m afraid the cost would be prohibitive.

Our 21 year old Hotpoint 96700 Top Loader has just expired having given no previous trouble at any time in it’s long life. The repair man says the gearbox may have seized and of course these are now obsolete. In our opinion this is a superb machine of which this is the third we have purchased. They have all lasted into double figures. Nothing else washes as white or rinses as clean. My wife was a chronic eczema sufferer and these machines have played their part in her relief from allergies. Does anyone know where a replacement gearbox or machine may be found? Any of the original Hotpoint Top Loaders will be acceptable.

Well, I had 2 Hoover washing machines that, between the two of them, lasted over 27 years. No problem whatsoever with smell or grey slime. Didn’t even know it could be a problem.

My new machine is a Bosch and grey slime is a mega problem, though I haven’t changed my habits at all. I don’t use fabric conditioner, don’t add too much powder (I am mean if anything) and do the occasional 60 deg wash. I guess it must be the poor rinsing that is to blame.

So, does anyone know if the new Hoover machines have developed this problem? Have they sacrificed the rinse to be eco-friendly?

I would put up with the noise (if they are still noisy), anything to escape the grey slime. I only changed to Bosch because the Hoovers were noisy and my Bosch dishwasher lasted 20 years. I just hope this machine doesn’t last 20 years.

Hi again Oliver :D

Ah cool yes thought Fast Wash 60C rinses should be high as they are only quick and as for Super Wash 60C well my machine doesn’t have it. The new Hotpoints don’t have that programme anymore. The synthetics programme is a fair bit below the fast wash 60C rinse water level on mind which is good too. Shame you don’t have the Hottie anymore :( but the reconditioned Bosch sounds great, what model is it :) infact I know someone on YouTube which has a recondtioned Bosch I think. You might not know me from there though, my account is HooverAC110. As for the intermediate spin speeds well Hotpoint have changed the Cottons to 1000rpm and the Synthetics 600rpm. Fast wash 60C is a little faster at 800rpm, this is only between the rinses though because on all programmes (which do spin after the wash) are all at 600rpm.

Thanks again :D sorry for the delay though :S

Gary

Where can I buy a Hotpoint top loader second hand? Model numbers Electronic De Luxe 9600, 9604 and 9605? The hotpoint wma30 is absolutely rubbish at rinsing unless i use ecover liquid. However i need to use bio as cleans better. Even a twin tub would be better than the modern rubbish we have no. Failing that I suppose it will have to be an Amercican top loading washing machine. Any recommendations greatly appreciated.

I bought a Hotpoint Aquarius WF530T washing machine when I was 17 and moved out on my own, since moving back with my parents late 2008 just before my 20th birthday I have had this machine plumbed in on the 3rd storey of our house. Having done this the computer has gone wrong, but the main point is poor rinsing even with extra rinse pressed. I have had dermatitis and eczema for many years and had virtually no problems with it when we had an old Servis when I was a young child, this machine put water HALF way up the door to rinse and did this three times un like the terrible machines of today which only do two. How on earth can two 10 litre rinses be as good as three 29 litre rinses on the Servis? My mum and dads whirlpool is no better it fills for each rinse and the clothes soak up all the water and ends up rinsing with an inch of water in each rinse.

I am so fed up with my Hotoint I am getting a new machine one that lasts more than two ans a half years and rinses properly.

Could you please help advise me which machine rinses to a proper standard or do I have to get a second hand machine dating from before my self to get rid of this horrible skin irritation!

PS. Its marvellous to find some like minded people who know the truth about our new race of ecoliogically sound rinse compromising washing machines!

Oliver.

Thanks for that Washerhelp – in particular with regards to the soda crystals which on the packet I bought only mentions what you would do with block sinks and drains. No mention of cleaning washing machines at all.

Do you think adding water to the final rinse would make a significant difference to the rinsing?

I believe my smell problems are worse due to the idiot who refitted my kitchen. I came home to have him proudly announce he had “rationalised” my drainage. Instead of a fairly standard and immediate U-trap with the hose connected to a 50cm drop it now trails 2m across the floor and up into the sink cupboard where it joins just above the kitchen sink trap. I have managed to raise the pipe around 4-6 inches behind the washer to form some sort of water trap, however the current arrangement where the trap as a long run before a 40cm rise seems to make water seeping back from the waste pipe into the machine inevitable. This adds stagnant water to the problem if the machine is not used very regularly.

I would have put the old waste route back but he had cut off the old waste pipe and concreted it up.

The problem is now compounded as I now have a dishwasher joining the sink outlet. The only solution to water seeping back that I see is to put a join for both dish and clothes washer just at the combined waste pipe’s exit point from the house.

Most people I have spoken to (moaned at) about powder stains agree that the rinsing on their modern machine is terrible. Powder stains seem almost inevitable and so I switched to liquid to avoid them.

Unfortunately this doesn’t mean they have been rinsed any better you just can’t see it any more!

A (somewhat inconvenient) possible solution that occurs to me is to hang around (or use rinse hold?) for the final rinse and use a large jug/kettle/hose to add more water (obviously don’t over fill it) to the rinse cycle(s) via the powder draw.

PS Liquids gives other problems (bad smells & scum) for which I had previously done 95C washes but I wonder following reading your article if I might be able to achieve a better outcome with Soda Crystals (possibly at a cheaper lower temperature). How much Soda crystals should I add ?

My old energy ‘inefficient’ water guzzling machine finally gave up the ghost in January of this year after 15 years of excellent service (and great rinsing).

So, I purchased a A*AA Hoover model (It’s one of the models with ‘fuzzy logic’ that calculates the amount of water to use.) having read over 200 positive online reviews. No rinsing issues were mentioned so I didn’t give it a thought. However, the rinsing is awful. Even reducing the amount of detergent to as little as 15mls still required me to do additional rinse cycles because of excess suds. Not very energy efficient. I also noticed that the cold water going into the machine left powder or liquid residue in the drawer, meaning that some of this would be flushed down with the rinse cycle.

I tried loads of different UK marketplace detergents (including a couple of the new mega concentrated liquids that require tiny amounts, and found that they are no improvement on the regular type in terms of suds production) and the result was always the same. This worked out very expensive…but I was on a mission to find something that worked with this machine as I would have to live with it for a while.

Really cheesed off, I did some research and discovered this brilliant website where you happened to mention HE detergent which is produced for High Efficiency washing machines in the US. I gathered that HIgh Efficiency was their equivalent to our Energy Efficient machines. More research and I discovered that some ecological brands of HE detergent are exported from the US to the UK and are sold by ‘Green’ companies. I wasn’t on the lookout for any Biologicals, but they may be available too. Anyway, I ordered myself a bottle of low foaming HE, and it works! I have been using it for over a week now on all sizes and types of washes and haven’t needed to do one extra rinse cycle. The clothes etc. have come up great. And because it is less viscous, the entire dosage is washed from the drawer into the drum. I am so relieved to have found a solution.

So, what I’m left wondering is, why haven’t manufacturers of UK detergents revised their formulas in order to be compatible with the new energy efficient machines when this type is all that will be produced from now on? And why aren’t more consumers picking up on this issue?

Finally, I really wish that I had discovered your website before purchasing a new machine as its a great source of information.

I’ll still be doing my monthly maintenance wash!

I have recently had my 4 mth old Bosch front loader replaced with an Electrolux toploader and have had no end of problems with residual washing powder build up. It has got to the point now where after every load I have to remove half the load and re-rinse, then put in said remaining 1/2 load and re-rinse also. The kids’ school uniforms (navy) don’t even look clean for the start of the week because of soap build up. I’ve tried everything – dissolving the powder (only using 1/3 of recommended amount) in hot water for an hour while previous loads are finishing, using liquid wash detergent (which apparently is a no-no because it’s a low suds machine), putting it down the middle, on the bottom (before washing goes in) and around top, hot load, warm load, cold load! NOTHING IS WORKING!!! I too have a child with eczema and he is starting to itch like crazy. You would think with all this modern technology at our fingertips they could sort out a decent machine with a proper rinse cycle or a decent powder that doesn’t cost the earth. As for my water-aid eco friendly machine – well it’s not so eco friendly or water aiding at all because I’m having to run it three times per load to effectively rinse everything through.

I have a 20 yr old Hotpoint 9520 which had no repairs appart from brushes in all that time. Whilst having to ultimately renew the drum bearings/spider etc I decided to get a new backup machine. I chose a Bosch WEA 24162 not thinking about rinsing efficiency. I am very unhappy with the rinsing of the Bosch. The washing smells stronly of detergent even after 1 or 2 additional rinses and using the extra water button. I completely agree with your opinions and am at a loss as how to pick a suitable machine. For me poor or inadequate rinsing is a major drawback which it seems all current machines suffer. I tend to wash all important things, towels etc in the old Hotpoint and socks, jeans etc in the bosch if I use the Bosch at all. By the way Bosch say its not a problem and I must use a certain powder to avoid undisolved powder which I noticed on the door seal. I’d rather have properly rinsed washing and forgo washing the car to be environmentally friendly.

Nikki that is really interesting info on miele machine, will show my husband this .

As for the home made washing powder if you’re really worried about foam suds using soap flakes, grate a bar of simple soap instead it takes seconds , I have done this with four bars of old fashion sunlight soap which I got on line and put in separate small bags ready for use later as I think I said in early posts ,I put Napisan in one for whites ,this is the old fashion again we used it to soak our towelling nappies in many moons ago ,got this on line too from chemist direct and the cheap too .

SUMMER NATURALS I bought in bulk even the vinegar from here ,all came yesterday and the postage was good considering the hugh vinegar bottle
I have been told that even with soap flakes this does not sud up and if your add half a cup of baking soda to the mix it will definitely be no suds .

Gemma

Hi Everyone,

There is a British twin tub manufacturer and wondered if anyone had bought one of the new modern twin tubs? The Polar models are all made in the UK however the body work is plastic but they come with 5 year parts. Do you think they would be a good option and last long? Oppinions greatly appreciated.

Ben

Hi . Judy, I add (as above ) 3 jugs of water to the main wash and 3 more to the final rinse of 2 extra rinses, this helps a little but I am so glad I am not on a water meter as i am using more water than ever. I feel all of the problems people are experiencing are all from lack of water, but then again are you and I having “less” water consumption than is normal ? Manufactures should not be allowed to put people health in danger for ” what purpose “

I have just read a blog from December . that states ,the water consumption for washing machines is going to get reduced from 12 to 8 liters of water. O dear.!!!

Sorry guys I should have said Anglian Water in my last post [edited now] and did speak today with a nice chap whom did go on to this site and surprised at how long the comments were .

I explained that with weighing washing and using the approx amount of powder per kg am still filling up with extra rinses, a simple wash cycle can go on for hours

He did confirm that we do here in Milton Keynes live in a very hard water area and that he will take my issues regarding the rinse problem to a meeting of colleagues .
I also went to the miele centre to test the 5740 and again the lack of water makes me wary again ,am thinking of getting the ISE10 ,am waiting for the answers to some questions and as it happened the chap from Sweden is there too ,so hoping to hear Monday from them .

I have been using Miele washing powder and with it baking soda and the rinsing has been good and using vinegar as softener but found a tear in one of my new tops and am wondering if it’s the baking soda or vinegar cause it ,still the washing is lovely and soft .
Gemma

@ washerhelp yes its artificially softened and no it isn’t my water softener! Its modern detergents and lack of good quality anti-foam! I have had the water softner for over 12 years and never had a problem before. Since using capsules which have a high soap content i don’t get foaming issues anymore nor if i add a capful of liquid soap flakes to Persil powder. I no longer use powders or tablets because of the unnecessary bulking agents and fillers they put in. Instead i use a detergent and limescale remover once a month at 90 degrees. I don’t have many whites anyway so no need to have bleach powder and i can’t use it anyway because of the reaction i have to optical brighteners.

I meant to add that i put one capsule of small and mighty in a 90 degree wash with no clothes and no overfoaming occurred at all. If i was to use powder or tablets or a heavily detergent based liquid even as little as 10ml the foam would reach as high as the top of the drum and poor out on the floor through the soap dispenser. And this would then acitivate the foam sensor.

Ben

Hi While my machine was full of suds on a wash with no powder ( I use ariel for whites and persil or ariel for coloured ) normally there are no suds visible , my main concern is the lack of water in todays machines hence a very poor rinse leaving a lot of detergent in the clothes and grubby looking clothes.. Barbara

@ Washer help can i ask what detergent brand do you reccommend? Do you find colour care stuff is worth bothering with or just stick to one bleach containing powder? I know the modern automatic powders are supposed to be low foaming but i totally disagree with them being low foaming. They create too many suds which stops my machine draining and spinning. Im currently use Amway SA8 (Made in USA) but i have a feeling there is no anti foam and that these products are best suited to US models or it could be they work better in US than here down to different water? The rinse water is never crystal clear and i always have a ‘pillow’ of bubbles on the rinse water even on the last rinse. I do have a water softner but it is plumbed into the main household water supply not directly to machine so i can’t see that the problem. I can only assume modern detergents foam too much. I also think its not a good thing that powders have become concentrated. We never had foaming issues in the 90’s from what i remember. I am not over dosing and put less than the reccommend amount. E.G. for normal soil my detergent says 30ml of liquid but i put in 10ml and it still bloody foams grrrrrrr.

Please can anyone reccomend a NON SUDSING detergent?

Thanks

Can anyone tell me if a Hotpoint WM51,52,53 or 54 range will rinse properly and use enough water say 1/3 or 1/4 up the door glass? The Hotpoint 95 series are becoming increasingly hard to find and mostly on Ebay. In my personal experience i wouldn’t buy second hand electrical appliances from a private seller as i did recently buy a machine only to find the tub leaks and the programmer has failed. Is my safest bet t buy from a reconditioned place second hand shop or somewhere like the British Heart Foundation? Guy’s Domestic Appliances is one idea though its over 70 miles from me so not a viable option.

If anyone can suggest any models please let me know. If i had the money would buy the Miele ‘Little Giant’.

Thanks

Gemma:

You are a lady after my own heart! I started this whole argument off years ago – if you wade back, you will find them.

I have found one washing power that rinses a better than any others, and that is Ecover Biological – it is brilliant, it rinses out pretty well, although thick towels need running through the wash cycle again with no soap added.

The problem is that modern washing machines only bring in a tiny amount of water, and in addition to that only rinse in cold water. The scientific facts of rinsing are that you need bags of warm/hot water to rinse properly, you CANNOT RINSE IN COLD WATER EFFECTIVELY.

Well done you!

is there any possibility that hot and cold fill machines with a good intake of water will come back onto the market ?

I agree big time with Nikki re poor rinsing and the huge increase in asthma and asthma-related problems in recent years – the Government should pay for research into a possible/probable connection between poorly rinsed clothes and asthma problems.

I have watched various comments on this blog for a couple of years or more now and note you will soon be closing down this particular blog after 500+ comments. I have had 5 washing m/cs in 5 years, all because rinsing was a major problem – coughing, sneezing, breathing problems AND loads of dust on kitchen surfaces made me realise there was a big problem with the rinsing on the first 3-4 m/cs.

I have had a Hotpoint Acqualitis 9Kg 1400 A Class m/c for a little over a year now and it certainly rinses SO much better than all the others. I use Marks & Spencer’s washing powder (‘for coloureds’) and add a little Napisan with the washing powder – great results EVERY time! Without the Napisan, clothes are not rinsed quite as well so I will then add an extra rinse cycle or two. From my experience, the M&S powder is the best powder on the market to enable reasonable/good rinsing of clothes – and I’ve tried a dozen or more brands – Daz is the one of the worst. So, try M&S powder with Napisan – and see how the rinsing goes. And, M&S, please keep selling this great product at a reasonable price – and I’ll keep buying and promoting it! Occasionally I use soap nuts as these are good for freshening up clothes – do not for removing stains though. PS: My friends thought I was neurotic about the rinsing capability of my various m/cs … when I found this blog a couple of years ago, it was very reasuring there were others in the UK who also had rinsing problems – thank you for setting it up and continuing it for this long, Washerhelp!

Re #503
Yes, unrinsed laundry power, dried, and then subsequently turned into dust is a rather extreme respiratory allergen even for people who don’t think they have allergies “but their noses are congested all the time”… It can come out of clothes, pyjamas, sheets, towels, basically ANYTHING that gets washed…
It IS peculiar that it’s only very rarely (maybe once a decade) rinsing performance isn’t measured by Which? or Comsumer Reports…

Re Comment #500. You’re right, though “rinse well enough for the masses” is kind of relative. SOME people think it’s quite odd to rinse the toothpaste out of one’s mouth with water (“you mean, you don’t just leave it in?”), and others probably WOULD be satisfied by shampooing their hair, towelling it off, and dunking one’s head ONCE into a bucket of rinse water…

Thanks people. I do still have that nagging feeling that ISE was the way to go but the Miele is on it’s way now and I ‘m sure it will be fine. We were rather taken by the whole water saving side of things but as you quite rightly point out that may well be at the cost of clothes not being rinsed properly. Suck it and see I guess. We use liquid tabs as well as power tablets so will have to review that for the benefit of our washing machine.

Oh, how can I forget THAT? Electric blow dryers in public toilets are often touted as “not cuasing chapped hands”, “being more hygienic”, and “reducing paper waste”… Unfortunately, if there are a lot of people in the washroom, people almost NEVER dry their hands completely (a task that should take around 20 seconds, to do properly takes well over a minute with anemic hand dryers, so if one considers a whole bunch of people with damp hands all pulling the door handles “more sanitary”, that’s news to me… Somehow I don’t see people saying things like “sure, I’ve had a cold three times this winter, but I helped save a tree, so my weeks of misery are worht it for the planet”.

There are a lot of ridiculous things done “in the name of the environment”, like forcing detergent manufacturers to make phosphate-free detergents, yet there is no control of INDUSTRIAL uses of phosphates, which is a larger amount by magnitudes, or requiring low-flow showerheads (and people compensate by taking showers that are twice as long) and cheap low-flow toilets which require multiple flushes to leave no trace of solid waste… (The more expensive ones often have some sort of pressure tank inside or a more efficient flow pattern.)

Re: comment #482

Nina, if water is so scarce in this country, why do water companies spend about 2 weeks doing nothing before attending to a reported water leak in the street?

I agree with Oliver’s comment #483 110-percent!!

If the environment is THAT important to the environmentalists, why don’t they insist that the washing machine manufacturers make washing machines much more reliable, as modern ones get scrapped at very young ages and also insist on returning to using the hot water valve to benefit owners of solar-heated hot water, instead of just making washing machines use too little water? It’s lack of water being used that’s forcing people like myself to pour in extra water through the soap drawer, otherwise my skin suffers!!

If washing machines used enough warm water and actually rinsed properly, then I would not need to fill the drum with lots of extra water. Maybe I’m now using too much water to compensate for not enough being used in the first place? Maybe good rinsing can be achieved with less warm water compared to cold? But the rinses have to be performed for long enough and interim spins must also be performed, which helps to force out the soapsuds.

If towels are not washed at 60C, expect to become ill more often!! The same applies to any bacteria-prone items e.g. nurses’ uniforms.

I’m surprised few people have commented on how to successfully solve rinsing problems.

Stopping your allergy may be as simple as running a “rinse” cycle after the washing machine has finished, which should also perform a final spin afterwards at your chosen speed. Doing this won’t void the guarantee and won’t take up much time. Given that new washing machines are full of features, the separate rinse and spin cycle should be present on just about every new washing machine. I know Miele’s have “Water Plus” which needs setting up to perform extra rinses in higher levels of water than the default.

I can understand when people are very sensitive to detergents and need more than just a few extra rinses in cold water. I know it’s frustrating not having high levels of warm water rinsing, especially for towels, but it can be achieved with little effort and stop you itching. I have found that the last rinse with Surcare softener (it has no perfumes) with warm water, instead of cold, leaves the clothes feeling MUCH softer. To anyone who doesn’t believe warm water rinses better, try it on your cottons and watch the soapsuds appear from nowhere! The warm rinsing water will also remove the detergent’s perfumes from your clothes, which cause skin reactions. White vinegar also neutralises just about anything, but I know it’s hard to find it cheap, so warm rinsing alone may be sufficient.

If you really want to get rid of them irritating perfumes from your washing, the affected washing needs rinsing in lots of warm or hot water and to be really sure, white (clear) vinegar could be used in the final rinse instead of fabric conditioner, it just needs to be added to the compartment of the soap drawer where the conditioner normally gets added. Vinegar is said to neutralise just about anything nasty and it’s also meant to be good for the clothes as well, so they say. The clothes won’t come out stinking of vinegar as the amount is too small, but it should be enough to hopefully rid the clothes of the irritating perfumes.

I know earlier in this blog people were saying that white vinegar is expensive unless you can buy it in bulk. If hot rinsing with fast interim spins doesn’t work on its own, white vinegar may be worth a try.

@ Oliver thanks for that helpful info about laundry liquids smelling stronger. In the past i used Persil silk and wool and even after many rinses it would still smell strongly of the stuff. Detergents in the 1980’s early 90’s were never difficult to rinse out or smelt too bad either. Another case of manufacturers trying to ‘improve’ something when it didn’t need improving. Modern technology and life don’t you just love it LOL

@brenda hughes, I have some suggestions for you:

I’m tempted to try the home-made stuff one day as it’s said to be much cheaper and just as effective as branded detergents. Please read comment #443 – I’m keen to find out if the home-made stuff is both cheaper and more effective than shop-bought detergent before I go making it myself. As I already have plenty of Ariel, which I stocked up on when it was on offer, I want to use it all before I think about making the home-made stuff.

Pour in a few jugs of hot and lukewarm water into the soap drawer when your washing machine stops filling for the main wash, just enough so the water covers the bottom of the door seal by roughly a finger’s width only. This seems to enhance cleaning and the rinses later on and it stops things like socks being caught on the door seal below the door glass. Make sure you are not overloading the drum as this will prevent the clothes from being rinsed properly.

With the exception of foaming, it’s not the fault of the detergent itself for bad rinsing – it’s caused by too little water and shorter rinses. I suggest you re-rinse and when you do, please pour in extra water or fit a hose to a tap and fill the washing machine with extra water to 1/3 up the door for at least 2 of the rinses, preferably warm water on all rinses. If your machine has a start/pause button, you can pause it when it stops filling for each rinse, add the water then start it again when you’ve added the extra water.

If you use fabric conditioner, add it second time round when re-rinsing, otherwise it will be wasted before you perform the rinses again.

I hope that helps. I know it sounds like a lot of hassle, but having manually re-rinsed and added extra water many times myself, it’s something I’ve got used to doing and my skin allergies have completely disappeared. Please post again to let us know how you get on. :)

Simon

I forgot to mention why I had to reduce the amount of detergent I use AND use soda crystals (aka washing soda) because I live in a “hard water” area.

Detergents do foam too much if washing a small load of non-heavily soiled laundry with the recommended dosage. If you find that you need to reduce the amount of detergent below the recommended amount to avoid the foaming problem, this is where limescale damage can be a problem. To prevent limescale, I add one heaped dessert-spoonful of soda crystals to the drum before loading. It’s cheaper than the more expensive water softening products and it does the same job.

If you live in a “soft water” area, reducing the detergent dosage slightly might be enough to avoid the foaming, but be sure to occasionally run the washing machine empty on the hottest wash with a good cleaner like “Affresh” to avoid nasty gunk and mould forming! Be sure to also wipe the door seal inside and outside thoroughly – you’ll be surprised at what ends up in the folds.

Full loads of laundry don’t seem to create much foam, but anything less than a full load seems to require a lower dosage of detergent than recommended. If the detergent manufacturers added more foam inhibitors, people would use the recommended dose every time – silly really when you think about it!

Oliver in response to-If this warm/hot water rinsing is such a good idea why don’t Nikki and WMUser connect the machines to the hot water supply via a TMV valve?

I *WANT* a TMV valve, but it’s going to be a *LOT* of aggro having it fitted. The washing machine is in a tight space and pipes need cutting back etc. If it were a 5-minute job, that TMV valve would have been fitted ages ago. I don’t know if Nikki intends to have one fitted, but it could make a difference as the water will be warm in all the rinses, instead of filling directly from the cold supply. With winter approaching, the mains water supply will become much colder, so having it warm to start will help a lot and maybe cut down on running costs?

If anyone is reading these comments, I strongly recommend using your washing machine when you have enough time be in and observe how it rinses on different settings etc. I don’t mean stand there and watch it for 2 hours!! I’ve noticed for example that the last rinse when the softener gets added will rinse for about 3 to 4 minutes longer than the previous rinses, so this rinse is a good one to add 1/3 drum of hot water. Secondly, the-quickwash re-rinse I perform, without detergent, I now select 30C and add the hot water, so this 30C main wash’ (without detergent) on the-quickwash now finishes faster compared to selecting 40C. By the time I’ve poured in the extra hot water (which is about 80C) to mix with the cold water in the washing machine, it’s now warmer than 30C, I guess about 40C to 47C?

I prefer to be in when the washing machine is on, having read reports on the white goods help site about glass doors breaking, washing machines being recalled and so on. Not only do modern machines rinse badly, they are also dangerous if left totally unattended!! I don’t take any chances.

Oliver, if your washing machine was performing them same high-level rinses in WARM or HOT water, you would notice a lot more foam. I’m talking about thick white foam. I don’t know the science, but the warmer water definitely rinses out a hell of a lot more soap.

I really want that LG washing machine … when my Miele eventually gives up the ghost, that is what I shall buy, even though it is extremely expensive!

Washerhelp: I don’t think me asking for a reasonable level of removal of detergent from my towels is too much to ask … I am not a fussy woman at all … but I dislike rubbing my body with enzymes, which will digest my skin and leave me sore!! And no, I do NOT have skin allergies before you start off on that one again!! All I ask for is a decent amount of water in my washing machine, and a rinse that is not stone cold. I can have neither, thanks to this ridiculous EEC nonsense.

WMUser: if I have a lot of towels, and a decent amount of hot water in the tank, I will fill up the bath and rinse the towels in the bath, and then just spin them out in the machine. Sometimes though this uses up a whole tank of hot water, and still the towels are soapy, but I am finding that the new biolgical Ecover is very good for rinsing – rinses out much better than anything else I have tried. I usually find now that just putting the towels through twice … once with soap, and then the following night without soap … gets most of the soap out. I am not asking for perfection here, just a reasonable rinsing performance such that my towels are not stiff like boards and my skin is not itching.

2 extra rinses in very little water will not magically solve the problem of rinsing out the soapsuds properly. People may think that the extra rinse will rinse “properly” compared to not using extra rinse, but sadly it does not work that way.

I’m sure water meters will become compulsory one day and it’s a trade-off between how much someone is willing to pay to use extra water versus sensitivity to detergents left behind in clothing, bedding, towels etc. Those who are sensitive or have a family member who’s sensitive to detergents will have to pay more for the extra water required, regardless of it being cold or hot.

Nikki, I have you to thank for the hot water rinsing. :) I never knew that warm or hot water would make such a difference, you can really see the soapsuds on the first warm rinse after 3 previous cold rinses in very little water! I’m still only using a maximum of 1/3 up the door when adding jugfuls of hot water to 2 of the re-rinses, I don’t want to go higher and wear-out the bearings prematurely. It only takes a moment to add jugs of hot water to the washing machine and it does rinse PROPERLY, without wasting much valuable time.

Until 21st century science can come up with a way of cleaning fabrics without water, detergent, rinses and the allergy problems, the only way to rinse properly is to use a large volume of water, combined with fast interim spins without sudslocking. Warm or hot water rinses for cotton and linen, lukewarm rinsing for easy care and cold rinsing for very delicate items. Anything less won’t work and an “extra rinse” on a modern washing machine will NOT rinse things much better – only about 8% better.

My friend told me about the magnetic ball today. It looks like it works. She had a mechanic in not long ago and he told her that there is no limescale in her washing machine at all. She does not use anything else. The only problem with her washing machine was that she did not clean the filter for the whole 10 years :)

Regarding hot water for rinsing, it is a fact that warm water rinses better than cold. The washing instructions on some of my baby clothes recommend rinsing in warm water. I remember that old washing machines used to be connected to both hot and cold water. I think they used to use warm water for rinsing too. The new washing machines are connected only to the cold water.

When it comes to hard water or soft water, the logic tells me that if you need to use more washing powder with hard water then hard water does not wash as effectivelly as soft water. The same may be true for rinsing.

Reading comments #356 to #358 inclusive, I’ve not heard about the chloramine issue, however if you wish to eliminate laundry detergent being an issue, it’s important to make sure that PLENTY of warm or hot water is added when re-rinsing. The water level should be high enough (up to 1/2 way up the door) and the porthole door glass should feel slightly warm. You’ll be amazed at how much detergent is released from clothes you thought were rinsed properly!! I’ve got my hot water set at 70C, so this higher temperature takes into account that the water cools down as you pour it into the soap drawer and it trickles down into the drum and hits the cold water already there. Eventually, as the volume of warm water increases, the final temperature for rinsing is about 40 – 45C, safe for cottons.

For limescale issues, this is why I always use one spoonful of soda crystals as this guarantees that the hard water doesn’t cause any problems, however I see you use Sainsbury’s water softener. Yes I know using the correct dosage of detergent is supposed to combat limescale, but sometimes you have to use less, i.e. when washing towels or smaller loads, otherwise you get too much foaming. If foaming wasn’t an issue, I’m sure people would be using the right amount of detergent every time. For some reason, modern washing machines don’t seem to be much good at flushing out foam like they used to??

If after several months of proper rinsing you’re still having skin problems, maybe it could be the chloramine, but it could be fabric conditioner, even if you’re using Surcare, you may wish to eliminate that.

One tip for everyone reading: you won’t get very good results if you wash below 40C, regardless of what the detergent manufacturers say! The only time I believe it’s necessary to wash at 30C is for very delicate fabrics like silk or net curtains, otherwise it’s 40C or higher for best results.

I agree with Nikki Jenkins and I know that proper rinsing can only be achieved with WARM water at a temperature of AT LEAST 40C. I believe that PLENTY of cold water can rinse away most (but NOT all) of the detergent and its chemical ingredients out of fabric fibres, BUT some of it will be left behind. Maybe 20 years ago most people could tolerate the tiny amount left behind because washing machines rinsed with high water levels using cold water. The epidemic of asthma and and other skin allergies is almost certainly caused by modern washing machines using so little water to rinse out only some of the detergent.

Warm rinsing does indeed work. I can attest to the fact that my washing is rinsed properly since using just one warm rinse and adding 7 10 big jugfuls of water from the hot tap into my machine which only takes a few minutes and I have no choice anyway, otherwise my eczema would come back. If you use UN-perfumed fabric conditioner like Surcare or don’t use fabric conditioner at all, the washing should pass the sniff test and not smell of the tiniest trace of detergent. If it smells even slightly then it is NOT rinsed properly.

As for washing machine manufacturers, they don’t listen to customers’ wishes and the silly PC environmental rules mean that they can’t heat the water up in each rinse as it would use too much energy, just as the same silly rules stop the washing machine manufacturers using too much cold water. Thanks to these silly rules, we have more people with allergies today than ever before!!

I’m sure by now, in the 21st century with all this modern technology, they can invent a washing machine that rinses cottons in warm water (40C minimum) by means of a heat exchanger and holding the heat, which can warm the incoming water until it is sufficiently warm. They could use a hot water inlet valve and make the bold claim of being environmentally friendly by claiming that users of solar heated water can save energy, then use this to hot water valve for warm rinsing, using the cold one too if the incoming water is too hot.

I don’t know the science, but it could be that warm water helps dissolve the detergent and open the clothing fibres, similar to ironing clothes i.e. heat flattens the creased areas. You wouldn’t be able to iron clothes without heat, for the same reason that you can’t rinse clothes as good in cold water, especially in the winter when the incoming water supply is extremely cold.

If you don’t believe me, then take freshly rinsed cottons that have been rinsed in cold water and NO fabric conditioner and rinse them in plenty of warm or very warm water. Provided no fabric conditioner was used (which disguises foam), you will see foam appear from clothes you thought were rinsed acceptably. This is especially true for towels. Try it! Sorry this message is so long and sounds authoritative, but people need to know the true facts and this blog could make a positive difference to people who are suffering skin complaints.

I used to repair washers of all variations and cannot recall ever seeing a front loader with an option for warm rinses, I know most USA top loaders do but then they only do a spray rinse followed by one deep one so maybe thats why???

CONFIRMED – after numerous washes – warm rinsing with a temperature of AT LEAST 40C rids the cotton fibres of the soapsuds much better than cold water or lukewarm water.

After doing a normal cottons cycle, the “quickwash”, “rapid”, “superquick” or whatever each manufacturer calls it, at 40C without detergent, gives you a warm rinse followed by the ordinary rinses performed during the quick cycle. Then the final spin. If you can add jugfuls of warm water from the hot tap into the washing machine via the soap drawer, this extra quantity of water works a treat. If you can’t add extra water, at least the clothes are getting rinsed better compared to just pressing “extra rinse” or doing nothing.

Having done this re-rinsing with lots of warm water and then adding un-perfumed fabric conditioner, my clothes are coming out clean without *any* smell of detergent or perfumes, not even a slight smell! The clothes feel really soft, softer now than they’ve ever been.

This works for me and I’m sure it will work for everyone else who wants their laundry rinsed properly. I never knew warm water could make such an enormous difference to rinsing until I discovered this blog. I’m very pleased. :)

Warm water rinsing is the ONLY way to remove detergent completely … I for one do not want detergent left in my laundry, so I have to resort to rinsing my clothes by hand in my sink in warm water as a cheaper option than doing hot washes in the Miele without detergent. It is terrifying how much soap is left behind in laundry washed in modern front loaders. I am convinced that this is at least partially responsible for the rise in asthma and skin conditions such as excema.

Like you WMUser, I have resorted to adding hot water to the washing machine on occasions when I have some “free” hot water in my tank that has been heated by our Coalbrookdale wood burner.

My Hotpoint is the WMA30 range but the programme dial does not turn at all. All computer operated. It is a ‘Proper’ Hotpoint though not the Merloni ones now. Was either made in 1997 or 1998 and bought from Powerhouse so shows how long ago that was.

To be honest I never have liked powders or tablets and as I don’t have white clothes not an issue. I keep a small pack for maintenance washes. Liquids are better for me as i find they do rinse easier.

Out of all the mainstream detergents I think Persil Small and Mighty is best for my machine as it doe not produce much foam. I can use Daz regular liquid but not concentrated as it foams loads.

Surf, Ariel and Bold are no go as do not clean well in my machine and again foam too much. Have emailed customer care but are totally unhelpful and useless and only tell me what i already know.

I assume the concentrated liquids don’t have the foam inhibitors in whereas the regular ones do.

Have found Sainsburys own brand excellent and good stain removal.
Currently using Amway Sa8 which gets most stains out most of the time and its 3x concentrated as Persil and Ariel. 10ml is enough for lightly soiled stains and 20 ml heavy soil. No foam at all and rinses completely clean.

Highly recommend.

Simon

It seems that the Nordic countries, and in particular Sweden, where I live, have traditionally demanded better rinsing. Test-winning machines here often have one or several programmes with extra rinsing cycles.

Yours,
F

Interestingly, newer LG machines offer not only a Rinse+ and Rinse++ option, but also a Medic Rinse, which is an extra, deep level rinse heated to 40*C.
“Medic Rinse
Washes away detergent residue with an extra, 40-degree rinse at the end of the cycle, making it ideal for a baby’s sensitive skin.”

I still have no problems rinsing in cold water, but perhaps this LG machine would be good for those who would prefer the option. Certainly saves a lot of hassle.

Jon

To anyone interested,

I have adjusted the pressure switch on the IAR Siltal and it now takes in a sensible amount of water to both wash and rinse. I did not want to adjust the wash, but had no choice as level 2 is made up of level 1 and a timed 20 second fill. So for wash it fills up to the bottom edge of the door glass and about 2″ up the door on rinses and wool wash.

Towels are not hard, and although it does not rinse quite as well as my 16 year old Bosch, it is not bad at all. My Mum and Dad are very pleased with my little “adjustment”, they have both remarked that it also washes better and the rinsing is 1000 times better. If I had known about this when the machine was new it would have been changed then. The rinse used to be 3-4″ in the bottom of the drum, hardly enough to properly wet the load let alone remove detergent and muck very well. It has been increased by over 150% and the difference is amazing.

It has 2 adjusters, one for level one and the other tells it when to start distrubting and when to reduce spin speed due to sudslocking etc. I assumed one would be level 1 and the other level 2. It took me an hour and a half to get it just right, I even had it filling half way up the door at one point, but that was too high for wash, so had to strike a balance, which I think I did.

I still sudslocks some times but is a hell of alot less than before, more clear evedence modern washing machines use too little water to rinse, and wash in this case as well. The only down side is increased water and power consumption, but at least it now works properly.

I however would not recommend attempting this if you are unsure as it would be VERY easy to flood the house or damage the machine, also would invalidate any warranty your machine may have. The IAR Siltal is nearly 9 years old now so I was fine. This weekend we shall be replacing the bearings, brushes and belt as well. It has done way over 5500 loads since new, a fair few of which have been overloaded as well. They have been told off for that as well!!

Oliver.

I SAY BRING BACK THE TWIN TUBS . I HAVE JUST GOT A HOTPOINT TWIN TUB FROM THE HEART FOUNDATION. AND GET ALL THE WASHING DONE IN ONE DAY. AND RINSE IN HOT WATER.
AND BOIL ALL THE WHITES..

I’m STILL having problems with excess foaming when washing towels or small loads and it’s driving me mad!! Even adding the detergent to the pre-wash only (no extra detergent added for the main wash) DOESN’T solve the problem. It’s a nightmare to rinse off the foam!!

From now on, when I have to wash small loads or towels, I will be using just under HALF the recommended amount of detergent, contrary to the advice about less detergent being bad for washing machines. I will only use the recommended amount for full loads. Any stains I will pre-treat with a stain remover spray.

I’ve tried several detergents and I can now conclude that modern laundry detergents create too much foam, even when the correct measure is used. As mentioned further up on comment #59, dishwasher detergents don’t create excessive foam (or if they do, it’s very rare and I’ve never had that problem), so why don’t they use the same anti-foaming ingredients in laundry detergent?

I know that net curtains are a pain for creating too much foam. I think I will use something else when washing the nets next time, not any kind of laundry detergent. Maybe soak them in a bucket of lukewarm water with a few denture cleaning tablets, at least there won’t be masses of foam to deal with.

I can understand the frustration from hlking. Re-running programmes without detergent does take longer and now I’ve got used to doing this without thinking about it (and getting on with 101 things that need doing everyday, whilst leaving the washing machine running).

I wish you good luck in getting a Which? recommended washing machine that washes and rinses properly. Fortunately, Which? tell you BEFORE buying whether a washing machine washes and rinses properly. Maybe the washing machines that Which? say are “good” at rinsing have an “extra rinsing” feature to enhance rinsing that bit more?

I’m hoping the next serious of Watchdog will cover this topic and make the manufacturer’s wake up to the problem.

Watchdog: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mg74

I have read through this thread with great dismay. As a busy mum of 11 month old triplets I need a relaible machine that is good at EVERYTHING you would expect of a washing machine – and to me that includes the fundamentals of washing and rinsing!! And with the volume of washing that I’m now doing, it must be reliable.

One of the kids is starting to show signs of developing eczema so I’m even more interested in rinse capability (I have always used non-bio gel).

I’m currently used liquitabs as my drawer no longer empties – I have given it a good scrubbing on several occasions to no avail.
We inherited the machine with the house so I have no idea how old it is (am even unsure as to model as it’s integrated and just has a stylised ‘A’ on the front). In addition to the drawer problems one of the progams is now also broken, so I think it’s just slowly disintegrating under the strain!

I don’t have the time to do many of the suggestions listed above, and feel quite indignant that I should have to – but is the consensus that these are the only options?
I’m a subscriber to Which so started my search there, but in view of the above, I’m now not going to spend neary 700 quid on the bosch. Looks like I may have to get ripped off with the nearly as expensive AEG Electrolux or Neff.

Depending on how I get on, I won’t hesitate to try and raise the profile of this via Watchdog.

In the meantime, fingers crossed. Wish me luck with my purchase….

A reply to Oliver’s comment #176 and for anyone trying to re-run programmes without detergent…

Re-running programmes/cycles without detergent or re-running rinses (if the washing machine has a separate rinse-only programme) is a matter of trial and error. In my case, re-running a water guzzling cycle without detergent after the first spin works fine. It spins between rinses, uses extra water and only takes about 1 hour and 30 minutes. The only thing I have to do after this second programme is select the “Spin” cycle with the highest spin speed, as the second programme without detergent doesn’t spin fast enough at the end.

Provided the delicate programmes spin between rinses, use more water than the standard cotton programme and don’t take too long, re-running cycles without detergent may (or may not) work for everyone. You have to try several methods until you find what method works best on your washing machine.

I think gentler agitation is an advantage when rinsing, as too vigorous agitation will create more foam.

Finally, I think I will try the pre-wash idea (that is, adding detergent for the pre-wash only and none for the main wash) if I’m washing a small load or towels, as this may prevent or reduce the excessive foaming. It will mean waiting even longer for the washing machine to finish!!

Don’t keep it to your self Gary. What model is your Hotpoint?

Hi all, is me again, I feel so rude about forgetting about this whole thread, just found it again after sorting out my Hotmail!

I still have to say that, despite being a water efficient machine, our Miele rinses superbly compared to our other older machines – we very rarely use water plus or the extra rinse as often I’m far too much in a rush to wait an extra 15 minutes. We use Ariel or Persil (whichever is on offer really), and we have no skin problems even though 3 of us, myself included, have severe eczema, which can be heavily aggravated by perfumed shower gels, softeners etc. However, my sister suffers from extreme eczema, yet she uses Fairy in a modern Zanussi Essential. Curiously, I noticed the other day when she had the Extra Rinse option selected, that even though adding 2 or 3 rinses, it won’t spin after the rinse cycles AT ALL (this is on cottons 40, which should spin after each rinse), and only does a brief, very slow spin before the softener rinse, before doing the normal 1200rpm spin at the end – thus, giving no better results than if she didn’t press extra rinse, as this would mean at least the washer will spin between rinses to get excess detergent out.

I think I mentioned before, but I’ll say it again, and I firmly believe it’s not just the water level which is a major factor during rinsing, but the interim spins too. One of the reasons why I personally think our Miele rinses so well is that it spins at 1000rpm for about 3 or 4 minutes after the wash (yes, I’ve been sad enough to fiddle with the spin selector mid cycle to see how fast it spins at!), and will spin at 1000rpm between the first rinse and the softener rinse. It makes sense if you think about it that most of the detergent is being spun out after the wash, hence less water and rinses being needed. I’ve noticed with Hotpoints and our old Bosch Exxcel in operation that the spins are quite brief and slow between the wash and the rinses – the Hotpoints/Indesits I’ve seen just do a series of bursts and a short spin rather than a full on spin after the wash – which in turn would hinder rinsing as more sudsy water is remaining in the load by the time the rinse cycle has started – this being even more exagerrated in my sisters Zanussi with the extra rinse being selected, as excess detergent and suds aren’t being removed at all before the rinse phase begins.

I think if more machines did a decent, long, fast spin after the wash and between the rinses, like our Miele, then the lower water levels wouldn’t matter, however it seems some manufacturers like Hotpoint, Indesit and Zanussi have cut down the water level, but not altered the interim spins accordingly.

Simon – we’ve used Sainsbury’s and Asda’s own before, and they are fair. However, we’ve always noticed that if we’ve been using own brand stuff and switch back to the main 3, i.e. Persil/Ariel/Bold, that stuff seems so much cleaner and whiter! BTW using liquid all the time will result in dingy whites, as optical brighteners alone don’t do as good a job as when they are in tandem with oxygen bleach in powders and tablets.

Jon

Why do modern detergents create so much foam if you use a little bit too much for the load size? If I use the recommended amount and I don’t have a full load, my washing machine will create lots of foam in the last 20 – 30 minutes of the main wash programme. This is particularly a problem if I’m washing towels and also a major problem if I wash hotter than 40 degrees. The hotter water does in fact create more foam, maybe that explains why Nikki Jenkins can see more foam when warmer water is used (comment #166)?

Why don’t the manufacturers install a foam sensor in every washing machine, so if excess foaming occurs then the appropriate action can be taken? Excess foaming is solved by allowing the suds to slowly settle for about 30 minutes, then spinning the laundry and starting again.

I live in a hard water area; I can imagine people living in soft water areas have a major problem with foaming? I’m sure too much foam seriously impairs rinsing?