Why can’t modern washing machines rinse properly?

@ WMUser sadly the stupid manufactuerers have cut down on water levels for the Wool Cycles as well, well they have in Bosch and in my Bosch Classix the water level does not even cover the woollens in my machine. How daft is that? Basically i don’t wash woollens any more in the machine because of the poor water level. Even my Hotpoint WMA30 used loads of water on the wool cycle at least half way up the door. These modern machines make me so angry and will be glad when mine packs up. Have no idea what i would use though as everything modern today is a load of rubbish.

Ben

I have just read a blog from December . that states ,the water consumption for washing machines is going to get reduced from 12 to 8 liters of water. O dear.!!!

Sorry guys I should have said Anglian Water in my last post [edited now] and did speak today with a nice chap whom did go on to this site and surprised at how long the comments were .

I explained that with weighing washing and using the approx amount of powder per kg am still filling up with extra rinses, a simple wash cycle can go on for hours

He did confirm that we do here in Milton Keynes live in a very hard water area and that he will take my issues regarding the rinse problem to a meeting of colleagues .
I also went to the miele centre to test the 5740 and again the lack of water makes me wary again ,am thinking of getting the ISE10 ,am waiting for the answers to some questions and as it happened the chap from Sweden is there too ,so hoping to hear Monday from them .

I have been using Miele washing powder and with it baking soda and the rinsing has been good and using vinegar as softener but found a tear in one of my new tops and am wondering if it’s the baking soda or vinegar cause it ,still the washing is lovely and soft .
Gemma

Thanks for the link to that comment Washerhelp I found it very helpful and it does make a lot of sense as this is what was happening ,the more i rinsed the worse it became.
I will go to Tesco to get their liquid bio let hope they are still the same as that comment was some time ago.

I also rang the water board today to have it confirmed my water is very hard as when ever I used calgon or soda crystals to reduce powder it was impossible to rinse the soap out ,they are getting back to me.

Ben I got a small tub of persil small and mighty to try .

Ben does it say 30-50% soap on the packets or am I looking for something else , sorry to sound thick but would you let me know .

Oh and just to round the day off my 3 week washing machine has stopped spinning .

I’ve had exactly the same problem with detergents foaming too much and coming over the top of the door glass. Powders, liquids and just about every type of laundry detergent can foam too much if you wash a very small load or in my case, wash only towels. I have always used detergent for front loading washing machines and I’ve never used twin tub or hand-wash detergent. This foaming problem is more prevalent now and I have no idea why, but I guess it’s because the detergent manufacturers are cutting costs and reducing the amount or type of anti-foaming agents which are meant to stop the excess foam. I’ve proven that you can prevent this from happening in the first place by adding 2 cupfuls of baby oil to the load it’s really that easy! I find it appalling that the manufacturers will charge the same amount of money for the detergent but not care about the excess foaming problem!

I’m pleased to say that the home-made mixture DOES work and you won’t get any foaming at all provided you use LIQUID soap flakes instead of the standard soap flakes; the standard (non-liquid) soap flakes will generate lots of foam very quickly! I’ve only tried this home-made stuff once and apparently it softens the clothes, so you save money on not buying fabric conditioner. I will keep using it and see how I get on. There’s normal detergents I’ve nearly used up and now I know baby oil will stop the foaming.

Today I added 2 capfuls of baby oil to the drum before loading the towels (only towels) and to my surprise there was no foaming. None whatsoever! To make sure the baby oil would mix with the detergent, I poured the 2 capfuls (yes it’s a small cap) of the baby oil next to a drum paddle so it wouldn’t dribble down the holes in the drum.

I don’t know if this will harm the washing machine or clothes, but I’m so impressed that I had NO FOAM AT ALL! Without the baby oil, any amount of detergent, even 1/3 of the minimum recommended amount will cause foaming with towels, which gets worse as the water temperature reaches 60C, the usual temperature I use for washing towels on their own.

The towels look perfectly washed and there’s no smell. I’m using up the last of the detergents I already have, so I will be using baby oil every time. Why can’t the detergent manufacturers use proper anti-foaming agents? Baby oil stops the foaming; I hope it doesn’t harm the laundry and the washing machine! I’ve yet to try this with soda crystals, but will do so next time. The baby oil seems to REALLY improve rinsing too because without the baby oil the rinsing water would be opaque and have foam bubbles, which never seem to go away.

The home-made mixture I will make will use liquid soap flakes, which could help stop the foam? Do people really need to see foam in a washing machine? Can’t the detergent manufacturers make a non foaming detergent and convince the public that it never creates masses of foam that’s almost impossible to rinse off? As for clothes smelling nice, the perfumes which produce that nice smell also cause nasty skin reactions! The smell is added because people like it and the nice smell can be used in marketing to increase sales and profit.

I meant to add that i put one capsule of small and mighty in a 90 degree wash with no clothes and no overfoaming occurred at all. If i was to use powder or tablets or a heavily detergent based liquid even as little as 10ml the foam would reach as high as the top of the drum and poor out on the floor through the soap dispenser. And this would then acitivate the foam sensor.

Ben

Hi While my machine was full of suds on a wash with no powder ( I use ariel for whites and persil or ariel for coloured ) normally there are no suds visible , my main concern is the lack of water in todays machines hence a very poor rinse leaving a lot of detergent in the clothes and grubby looking clothes.. Barbara

@ Washer help can i ask what detergent brand do you reccommend? Do you find colour care stuff is worth bothering with or just stick to one bleach containing powder? I know the modern automatic powders are supposed to be low foaming but i totally disagree with them being low foaming. They create too many suds which stops my machine draining and spinning. Im currently use Amway SA8 (Made in USA) but i have a feeling there is no anti foam and that these products are best suited to US models or it could be they work better in US than here down to different water? The rinse water is never crystal clear and i always have a ‘pillow’ of bubbles on the rinse water even on the last rinse. I do have a water softner but it is plumbed into the main household water supply not directly to machine so i can’t see that the problem. I can only assume modern detergents foam too much. I also think its not a good thing that powders have become concentrated. We never had foaming issues in the 90’s from what i remember. I am not over dosing and put less than the reccommend amount. E.G. for normal soil my detergent says 30ml of liquid but i put in 10ml and it still bloody foams grrrrrrr.

Please can anyone reccomend a NON SUDSING detergent?

Thanks

Had a WM52. It’s rinse was terrible, in fact had to use liquid just to stop clothes being covered in powder. The main bearing disintegrated after 14 months. Hotpoint failed to turn up to fix it but by then it had quietened down. It sounded like the bearings had disintegrated to nothing and it sort of rattled as it turned I decided to just ignore the strange noises until it finally died when I would replace it because it rinsed that badly it wasn’t worth keeping.

Andy
I have spent all day and managed to get through all the comments, have you ever thought of passing this blog on (if thats the right word) to WHICH who tells us machines don’t rinse properly and still gives it a best buy.
we joined Which for a pound and ask them have they ever did a trial on the right amount of detergent apart from what it says on the box their answer look at the page on detergent was not impressed at so won’t be joining ,I got more help here ,so thanks everyone its nice to know am not going mad .

And was it you that had a ISE10 in his garage to review ,and have you . One comment that scared me was the spanish one that said water could be reduced to 8L . I have to tell you that scares me.
I know I sound thick but when people say comment 334 ,where are these numbers ?
Thank you
Gemma

is there any possibility that hot and cold fill machines with a good intake of water will come back onto the market ?

I agree big time with Nikki re poor rinsing and the huge increase in asthma and asthma-related problems in recent years – the Government should pay for research into a possible/probable connection between poorly rinsed clothes and asthma problems.

I have watched various comments on this blog for a couple of years or more now and note you will soon be closing down this particular blog after 500+ comments. I have had 5 washing m/cs in 5 years, all because rinsing was a major problem – coughing, sneezing, breathing problems AND loads of dust on kitchen surfaces made me realise there was a big problem with the rinsing on the first 3-4 m/cs.

I have had a Hotpoint Acqualitis 9Kg 1400 A Class m/c for a little over a year now and it certainly rinses SO much better than all the others. I use Marks & Spencer’s washing powder (‘for coloureds’) and add a little Napisan with the washing powder – great results EVERY time! Without the Napisan, clothes are not rinsed quite as well so I will then add an extra rinse cycle or two. From my experience, the M&S powder is the best powder on the market to enable reasonable/good rinsing of clothes – and I’ve tried a dozen or more brands – Daz is the one of the worst. So, try M&S powder with Napisan – and see how the rinsing goes. And, M&S, please keep selling this great product at a reasonable price – and I’ll keep buying and promoting it! Occasionally I use soap nuts as these are good for freshening up clothes – do not for removing stains though. PS: My friends thought I was neurotic about the rinsing capability of my various m/cs … when I found this blog a couple of years ago, it was very reasuring there were others in the UK who also had rinsing problems – thank you for setting it up and continuing it for this long, Washerhelp!

Re #503
Yes, unrinsed laundry power, dried, and then subsequently turned into dust is a rather extreme respiratory allergen even for people who don’t think they have allergies “but their noses are congested all the time”… It can come out of clothes, pyjamas, sheets, towels, basically ANYTHING that gets washed…
It IS peculiar that it’s only very rarely (maybe once a decade) rinsing performance isn’t measured by Which? or Comsumer Reports…

Re Comment #500. You’re right, though “rinse well enough for the masses” is kind of relative. SOME people think it’s quite odd to rinse the toothpaste out of one’s mouth with water (“you mean, you don’t just leave it in?”), and others probably WOULD be satisfied by shampooing their hair, towelling it off, and dunking one’s head ONCE into a bucket of rinse water…

Thanks people. I do still have that nagging feeling that ISE was the way to go but the Miele is on it’s way now and I ‘m sure it will be fine. We were rather taken by the whole water saving side of things but as you quite rightly point out that may well be at the cost of clothes not being rinsed properly. Suck it and see I guess. We use liquid tabs as well as power tablets so will have to review that for the benefit of our washing machine.

I’ve just ordered a Miele W5740 but had considered the ISE10 1607W. I am now concerned I’ve made the wrong choice and infact I should have gone down the ISE route. There just does not seem to be enough people that have gone that way so despite some great marketing and some great reviews I’m still a little circumspect about it but I have a feeling the Miele is going to cause issues after the 10yr warranty is up with their overly expensive repairs and parts! :-(

Can anyone put my mind at rest or I have I just bought a longer term more expensive machine :-(

Oh, how can I forget THAT? Electric blow dryers in public toilets are often touted as “not cuasing chapped hands”, “being more hygienic”, and “reducing paper waste”… Unfortunately, if there are a lot of people in the washroom, people almost NEVER dry their hands completely (a task that should take around 20 seconds, to do properly takes well over a minute with anemic hand dryers, so if one considers a whole bunch of people with damp hands all pulling the door handles “more sanitary”, that’s news to me… Somehow I don’t see people saying things like “sure, I’ve had a cold three times this winter, but I helped save a tree, so my weeks of misery are worht it for the planet”.

There are a lot of ridiculous things done “in the name of the environment”, like forcing detergent manufacturers to make phosphate-free detergents, yet there is no control of INDUSTRIAL uses of phosphates, which is a larger amount by magnitudes, or requiring low-flow showerheads (and people compensate by taking showers that are twice as long) and cheap low-flow toilets which require multiple flushes to leave no trace of solid waste… (The more expensive ones often have some sort of pressure tank inside or a more efficient flow pattern.)

From what i have found is liquids and liqui-tabs are the worst for rinsing out. I now stick to powders because like Oliver says they clean the best plus they have all the technology to look after your machine. I can think of better ways of saving water like having a shower instead of a bath. It is fact you need lots of water to get clothes cleaned in both the wash and rinse processes. Plus you can always save the water from your washing machine. By law detergents have to be biodegradeable and there is a lot of misinformation out there. Ecover for example still contains some dubious chemicals. It is more eco-friendly to wash at a lower temperature and use Ariel, Persil or Daz than wash at high temperatures using Ecover etc. I use Ariel at the moment as it was on special offer and the rinsing is excellent but only if i top up the water level in the final rinse. I think my Hotpoint WMA30 is about 15 years old now but is still a lot better than the modern rubbish. I was actually told it was a Bosch (hotpoint engineer told me) which might explain why its lasted 15 years!

Stear clear from own brand and ‘eco friendly’ detergents you will end up ruining your machine as they do not contain the additives that keep a machine clean and limescale free.

Quick wash programmes are not wash programmes and are designed for things that have not been worn next to the skin. Hope you find that useful Nina.

All the best

Simon

I haven’t read all the other comments, so apologies if I’m repeating things. I think it’s vital that we reduce our water consumption, particularly our use of drinking water for non-food uses (washing clothes, flushing the loo, etc). Personally I blame the rinsing problems on modern detergents. If you’ve ever hand-washed a jumper with laundry detergent, you’ll know how many rinses it takes to get all the soap out – in fact, you probably gave up rinsing even though you knew there was still detergent in your jumper. On the other hand, if you use a neutral baby shampoo (which is recommended in some knitting books), you can get out all the soap in two rinses. I do have an allergic reaction (asthma) to the perfumes in Persil etc, so I use an eco-friendly un-perfumed detergent called Bio-D. I also usually use the ‘quick wash’ option on my machine which reduces the amount of water used and the length of the rinse cycle. I’ve never noticed a problem with soap residue in my laundry. What’s more, my detergent’s completely biodegradable and not harmful to aquatic life, and therefore the discarded rinse water isn’t polluting our waterways. Many washes (eg bathroom towels) don’t really need detergent at all – warm water’s enough to clean them. Or you could try soapnuts.

(Comment number 470 continued)
Hi again!
We received the used Bosch WFB 1605 washing machine.
It washes and rinses very well. After washing, it rinses the clothes three times, and each time,
the water level rises up to a third of the height that you can see through the glass. Moreover,
if you press the “more water” button, then, the level rises up more than half the height
you can see! We do not have any skin problems, so we will not use the “more watter” button
very often. The machine looks well and sounds well when working, and Bosch has a reputation
for having spare parts for its discontinued appliances during many years, so we hope that we
will be able to use this one for about 10 or 15 years yet.

In some previous comments I read that the British Which? magazine rated only 3 washing machines
as good at rinsing, and that the overall rating of these three machines was bad. Well, the main
(and well reputed) Spanish consumer organization OCU publishes monthly a magazine called Compra Maestra where many consumer reports are available. In the last months two reports of interest have been published. One of them rated 24 models of washing machines that spin the load up to 1200 RPM, and none of them received a “good” rating for rinsing, at least for cotton load
programs. The report also said what we all know: that modern washing machines use less energy
and water at the expense of poorer washing and rinsing. The other report rated another 24
washing machines that spin the load up to 1000 RPM and only one of them
(the Bosch WAE 20260EE) was rated as “good” for rinsing (but did not receive the top
“very good” rating). The overall rating of the machine was slightly above average and it ranked
12th. of the 24 models. I do not know it this model is or has been sold in Britain and another
countries.

One of the corollaries to Murphy’s Law states “Just when you think things cannot get any
worse, they will”. Well, this seems to be the case with the European regulation
which affects water consumption of washing machines and has versions from years 1995, 1999,
,,,etc. I found a document on the web (unfortunately, I did not save or bookmarked it)
where it read that they are preparing a new version of the regulation that
will further reduce the limit of water consumption from 12 to 8 liters of water per kilogram
of load in the 60 degrees cotton load program. Apparently, that does not affect the other programs,
but experience shows that manufacturers tend to reduce the water consumption of all programs
when they have to reduce that of the 60 degrees cotton load one. So, I think that if we were
thinking of buying a new washing machine, we would buy one before the new regulation applies!.

Best regards.

If the detergent is scented there should be SOME scent left over, but not much! And yes, unfortunately most modern machines don’t rinse very well. The “if the clothes are wet, the cycle must have done its job in washing and rinsing” mentality is there.

Hi everybody!
I am somewhat relieved to know that Spain is not the only country where washing machines rinse poorly. I will tell you our story:
We had an old Zanussi SL-503 washing machine (made around the year 1982). Of course it washed and rinsed very well. Its main axle broke in year 2006, and we were so stupid not to have it repaired (the technician told us that they still had all spare parts for this model). We bought a new Whirlpool AWO 8107 model and soon noticed that it did not wash well and rinsed very, very, very poorly.
We called Whirlpool’s technical service twice, the first time they told us that these machines used very little soap, much less than the quantity that we added. We tried to add less and rinsing became only very poor, while clothes were almost so dirty as they had entered the washing machine. We tried changing the detergent’s brand, adding several rinsing cycles, pressing the extra water button, but nothing helped. The second time the technician came, I asked him if he could make the machine take more water, and he told me he couldn’t, because he was not allowed to, but that a private technician not belonging to any washing machine’s official technical service could do it by replacing the pressure gauge and the main electronic board of the machine by older models. He told me that it would cost more than 400 euros, and we didn’t know if we would find a non-official technician that was qualified to do the job, so we didn’t try to do it.
Two weeks ago, the machine broke and we have not tried to repair it. Instead we have bought an old Bosch WFB 1605 machine that will be delivered tomorrow and costs 165 euros. It was made some year between 1995 and 2000, before the main European regulation limiting the amount of water that washer machines can use began to apply (the regulation dates back from year 1999, but I think it did not begin to be applied in Spain till years 2000-2001. There is an older regulation, from year 1995, but it did not restrict water’s usage, only made compulsory for the manufacturers to inform about the amount of water that the machines use in the 60 degrees cotton cycle). So, it is not so old as Oliver’s Bosch WFF2000, but I hope that it will do a proper rinse. It has, as Oliver’s, a more water button. Moreover, in case it still does not take enough water, the seller told us that any technician could easily adjust its pressure gauge to rise the water level, since it is a fully mechanical machine.
In a few days, when we will have tried it, I will let you know how it rinses and some more information that we have and may be of interest to all of you, but that I do not post now in order not to make this comment too long.
Best Regards

I recently started using the Persil non bio small and mighty liquid after using the Persil non bio tablets for years. It was on offer so I bought loads of it thinking it would be the same as the tablets. After a couple of weeks of using it (I only actually use half the recommended dose) we have all started itching, mainly in the areas that the clothing is in constant contact to the skin. I also noticed that the clothes smell really strong of the wash liquid when they come out the washer, even though I use comfort pure fabric softener. I sometimes noticed white residue with the tablets but not this itching. Surely this non bio liquid could cause this reaction? I even use intense wash programme and never wash in a temperature less than 40. Can someone give me some advice please as I have bought bottles of the stuff!

@brenda hughes, I have some suggestions for you:

I’m tempted to try the home-made stuff one day as it’s said to be much cheaper and just as effective as branded detergents. Please read comment #443 – I’m keen to find out if the home-made stuff is both cheaper and more effective than shop-bought detergent before I go making it myself. As I already have plenty of Ariel, which I stocked up on when it was on offer, I want to use it all before I think about making the home-made stuff.

Pour in a few jugs of hot and lukewarm water into the soap drawer when your washing machine stops filling for the main wash, just enough so the water covers the bottom of the door seal by roughly a finger’s width only. This seems to enhance cleaning and the rinses later on and it stops things like socks being caught on the door seal below the door glass. Make sure you are not overloading the drum as this will prevent the clothes from being rinsed properly.

With the exception of foaming, it’s not the fault of the detergent itself for bad rinsing – it’s caused by too little water and shorter rinses. I suggest you re-rinse and when you do, please pour in extra water or fit a hose to a tap and fill the washing machine with extra water to 1/3 up the door for at least 2 of the rinses, preferably warm water on all rinses. If your machine has a start/pause button, you can pause it when it stops filling for each rinse, add the water then start it again when you’ve added the extra water.

If you use fabric conditioner, add it second time round when re-rinsing, otherwise it will be wasted before you perform the rinses again.

I hope that helps. I know it sounds like a lot of hassle, but having manually re-rinsed and added extra water many times myself, it’s something I’ve got used to doing and my skin allergies have completely disappeared. Please post again to let us know how you get on. :)

I have a Miele washer that I bought in 2004 and have no problem with rinses at all. Everything comes out sparkling clean. May be mine is one of the older one that has “power” rinse….I dont know. But what I do know is that I never use the amount of detergent that they (the detergent box or whatever) recommend. Right now I am using Tide HE (form my colors)and Persil white (for my whites). And I only use about 1/8 cup. (Mind you we have soft water in Vancouver.) I think over all we use too much detergent/soap/shampoo/toothpaste than needed. For those that has rinse problem, try using less detergent. You need to find the right amount for the water(hardness) in your area. Experiment!!! and use the least needed. Save money and the planet.

As regular readers know, if I discover something that really helps, I post it for every readers benefit.

First, after starting the main wash and waiting for the washing machine to stop filling, I pour in a few jugs of hot water to raise the water level so it just covers the bottom of the door seal by roughly a finger’s width. Doing this dilutes the highly concentrated detergent solution slightly and the clothes get soaking wet quicker, which reduces the wear and tear of long wash cycles.

If you’ve had your washing machine for a while, you’ll have a rough idea of how long the main wash takes before it drains out the soapy water. During the last 10 minutes or so of the main wash, pour in jugfuls of cold water to raise the water level up to just 1/3 of the door glass. Older washing machines used to do this (including my old washing machine) and its purpose is to heavily dilute the detergent. This REALLY helps with rinsing as the detergent gets heavily diluted before the rinses. Now I can press the “Start/Pause” button to pause the rinses and top up the 3 rinses with jugs of hot water to 1/3 up the door. Since performing the dilution on every main wash, the second rinse is so much clearer and not full of thick white suds and nowhere near as cloudy as it used to be. I no longer have to waste nearly an hour running the “quickwash” cycle afterwards to get 3 extra rinses which I had to top-up with hot water.

It sounds like a lot of effort, but I never go out and leave the washing machine on. It’s much safer to be at home at all times when using the washing machine, if possible.

I’m effectively making a modern front-loading washing machine perform as good as a 20-something-year-old front-loading washing machine. The washing is coming out very clean and soft without smelling of detergent. :)

Simon

I forgot to mention why I had to reduce the amount of detergent I use AND use soda crystals (aka washing soda) because I live in a “hard water” area.

Detergents do foam too much if washing a small load of non-heavily soiled laundry with the recommended dosage. If you find that you need to reduce the amount of detergent below the recommended amount to avoid the foaming problem, this is where limescale damage can be a problem. To prevent limescale, I add one heaped dessert-spoonful of soda crystals to the drum before loading. It’s cheaper than the more expensive water softening products and it does the same job.

If you live in a “soft water” area, reducing the detergent dosage slightly might be enough to avoid the foaming, but be sure to occasionally run the washing machine empty on the hottest wash with a good cleaner like “Affresh” to avoid nasty gunk and mould forming! Be sure to also wipe the door seal inside and outside thoroughly – you’ll be surprised at what ends up in the folds.

Full loads of laundry don’t seem to create much foam, but anything less than a full load seems to require a lower dosage of detergent than recommended. If the detergent manufacturers added more foam inhibitors, people would use the recommended dose every time – silly really when you think about it!

Has anyone else found that too many companies use too many foam boosters in detergents? I have been using Ecover concentrated and even that produces too much foam. Is it me or does it seem that since concentrated detergents came out their cleaning performance has gone down the drain as well as excess bubbles? I have found using the top named brands now a waste of money as none of them work including Persil. So would i be better off just using cheap own brand detergents? Could i use Granny’s soap flakes instead. I am very dubious about using soap based cleaning agents in case i ruin the washing machine.

Simon

Thanks for the information Oliver – REALLY appreciated.

The ZFL1023 sounds like the perfect option and I’ve checked to see if spares are available and there’s an abundant supply online. :)

It proves that the quality of washing machines have gone downhill over the past 20 years and their rinsing abilities have also become pitiful due to the “eco friendly” brigade.

I agree you’ve done the right thing Oliver, buying your Bosch WFF2000 and who cares about it being “old” – you say in this blog – and others – how happy you are to own it. This is definitely the way to go I think – buy an old washing machine with plenty of spare parts available for it. If I can get the Zanussi ZFL1023 I look forward to decent rinsing and the “spin wash”. Provided repairs for it aren’t too expensive, I could keep it going for as long as possible. I don’t care if the spin speed is 1000rpm or 800rpm and the capacity is 4.5 – 5 kg, meaning I have to do the washing more often and wait a bit longer for the clothes to dry, it’s not that much of a compromise if my washing is rinsed properly and I don’t need to stand there adding jugs of water to the rinses as I do with my current “new” Zanussi-Electrolux.

What do other readers think about older washing machines compared to new ones, especially with regards to rinsing? Do you think the subject of “new” versus “old” washing machines deserves its own blog page on the White Goods help website?

One day I will probably replace my Zanussi-Electrolux with an old Zanussi ZFL1023 – this looks a good machine and it was made at a time when Zanussi were good quality washing machines, about 1989 – 1990?

My question is: If it has hot and cold fill inlet valves, is it possible to use a TMV and a “Y” connector so both inlet valves receive warm water from the TMV?

I’m getting tired of adding jug after jug of hot water into my my washing machine, but it’s the only way to get the soap out of everything. It would be nice to use an “old” washing machine that uses higher water levels and spends longer performing the rinses.

I seem to notice that a lot of people are affected by laundry detergent, but then say things like-I’ve changed by brand of washing powder or-I have to use non-bio. If it could be rinsed away properly, it wouldn’t matter what detergent is used. Very few people would be prepared to re-rinse and pour hot water into the washing machine.

I used to suffer the exact same symptoms described in that link and it says-After washing, rinse your clothes twice so that all traces of detergents are removed from the clothes. Which I’m assuming means: after your washing machine has finished, rinse the clothes all over again (twice)?

Washerhelp, thank you for understanding. I read in your comment:-There are organisations dedicated to allergy sufferers which I will try to contact or at least research to get an idea how many people are likely to have a problem with rinsing efficiencies in modern washing machines. If enough people suffer then something should definitely be done and I’d be more than happy to be complicit in trying to achieve this.

I don’t think many people are even AWARE that modern 21st century washing machines could be causing their skin allergies. Many times I’ve had red rashes appear on my skin mysteriously and never thought that my washing machine could be causing it until I found this page. After trying lots of different methods and faffing around, I decided to try the hot water trick and seeing is believing the warm water (estimated 40 to 45C) releases a LOT of soapsuds!

If customers could be given the OPTION of rinsing in lots of water and warm rinses (e.g. a button labelled-intensive warm rinsing), that would be marvellous. The instructions could carry a warning that running costs will increase. It’s no different to having a temperature control on an oven or heater the more you increase the temperature, the more it costs to run.

I agree with you Nikki. I also like my clothes rinsed properly and I don’t see why my skin should suffer with these chemicals in my towels, clothes, bedding etc rubbing against my skin, be it enzymes or any other chemicals which cause my skin to suffer. I manage to get my towels rinsed well enough with hot water added to the washing machine during the re-rinse “quickwash” programme, but it does require a lot of hot water – that’s just using 1/3 up the door twice!! Who cares about the slight extra cost of the water and heating it? Since re-rinsing with lots of warm water, my skin is now cured, I no longer suffer eczema or skin rashes.

Washerhelp, rinsing is not a problem unless you – or someone who comes into contact with your bedding or towels – is allergic to laundry detergent, even small amounts of unrinsed detergent. That explains why the JLWD1609 rinses acceptably in your home.

I think the public are gullible and refuse to believe that their modern washing machine can cause unexplained skin allergies and asthma. It’s so sad and extremely annoying that I have to rewash everything without detergent and then add jug after jug of hot water, but at least it works and doesn’t take up much valuable time. I don’t care how much extra it costs in water bills (I have a water meter) and energy needed to heat this hot water; it’s a small price to pay compared to skin reactions! I would be happy if the “extra rinse” option used that same large volume of water and filled the washing machine with HOT water for cottons, especially towels. If these daft EU/EEC regulations insist that washing machine manufacturers cannot use lots of water (and hot water rinsing) by default, then the “extra rinse” option would not be the “default” and people – like me – would be happy to have gallons of extra water and hot water rinsing on cotton cycles. That could be a “loophole” to work around this ECC and “environmentally friendly” nonsense?

2 extra rinses in very little water will not magically solve the problem of rinsing out the soapsuds properly. People may think that the extra rinse will rinse “properly” compared to not using extra rinse, but sadly it does not work that way.

I’m sure water meters will become compulsory one day and it’s a trade-off between how much someone is willing to pay to use extra water versus sensitivity to detergents left behind in clothing, bedding, towels etc. Those who are sensitive or have a family member who’s sensitive to detergents will have to pay more for the extra water required, regardless of it being cold or hot.

Nikki, I have you to thank for the hot water rinsing. :) I never knew that warm or hot water would make such a difference, you can really see the soapsuds on the first warm rinse after 3 previous cold rinses in very little water! I’m still only using a maximum of 1/3 up the door when adding jugfuls of hot water to 2 of the re-rinses, I don’t want to go higher and wear-out the bearings prematurely. It only takes a moment to add jugs of hot water to the washing machine and it does rinse PROPERLY, without wasting much valuable time.

Until 21st century science can come up with a way of cleaning fabrics without water, detergent, rinses and the allergy problems, the only way to rinse properly is to use a large volume of water, combined with fast interim spins without sudslocking. Warm or hot water rinses for cotton and linen, lukewarm rinsing for easy care and cold rinsing for very delicate items. Anything less won’t work and an “extra rinse” on a modern washing machine will NOT rinse things much better – only about 8% better.

I think “suds locking” refers to the situation where the foam gets trapped between rinses and does not get flushed away. Either the pump gets switched off too soon, before all of the soapy water has a chance to be pumped out completely and/or the foam does not get flushed out between the drum and outer tub.

I don’t know if the leftover foam itself is full of the detergent chemicals that the rinses are trying to remove, but I have noticed this foam does not get flushed away properly. This is more a problem if I wash a smaller load and use the recommended dosage (even WITHOUT soda crystals I’ve seen lots of foam!!). Best thing I found for small loads – to avoid excess foam – is to use 2/3 or 1/2 the minimum dosage and always use soda crystals to prevent limescale, if you don’t live in a “soft water” area.

Thinking back, I remember adding 1/2 a drum of cold water when re-rinsing and not seeing many soapsuds appear, but now that I add 1/2 a drum of hot water, you can really see the soapsuds and if you pause the washing machine for a few minutes, you can see the soap “fizz” out of the clothes soaking in this warm water. It must be doing something and Mira’s comment #388 says about baby clothes recommending rinsing in warm water.

Afternoon Andy,

Bosch – never sudslocks, with any detergent.
Hotpoint – always sudslocks. This is down to bad programming and cannot be altered.
Siltal – never sudslocks anymore, now it uses a sufficient anount of water to wash and rinse, since I altered the pressure switch.

The Bosch and Siltal both have their own stand pipes, so no problem there, the filters are spotless, they have the normal drain hose with no extensions and the stand pipes are with in the guide lines. It is just the fact certain detergents are too soapy for certain machines,so when interim spinning it all foams up between the inner and outer drum and there for fills the lot up with foam and thus cannot be pumped away. The situation is now sorted as Persil works fine and unlike Ariel is not too soapy, it was mainly a detergent issue.

It is just more apparent as modern washing machines spin straight after the wash, do not rinse with very much water so the detergent is not diluted as well, so when spinning just turns to foam.

Don’t use the Hotpoint much these days, only for large items, when I use it I hook the drain hose over the edge of the (don’t laugh!) bathroom sink and I have installed a special blanked off washing machine tap in there too for this purpose, saves moving the Bosch out of the way!

Oliver.

Miele have a Water Plus option that increases the water level to 1/3 up the door for rinsing and just lapping at the bottom of the glass on wash. However most Miele machines only do 2 rinses, which is not sufficient at all. Some have the option to add a third rinse but they still do not rinse properly.

Oliver all due respect, but as I’ve mentioned way up in the thread, the 4-5 year old Miele machine mum has at home which does 2 rinses as standard rinses more than sufficiently with 2 default rinses and using mainly Ariel or Persil detergents. While all but one of us has moved out her machine has had to deal with 3 people with sensitive skin over the years, and we’ve both found it to be better at washing AND rinsing than any of the previous machines, including the Bosch it replaced which did a mediocre job with 4 with Rinse Plus, and the previous Hotpoint’s dating from the early-mid and late 90s respectively.

Saying that I have recently moved into a flat with an el-cheapo standard issue Beko, and have to say that does a surprisingly good job at washing and rinsing rinse water is always clear by the 2nd rinse even if you use the Quick wash which does 2 as standard, and can do up to 4 if you select the extra rinse. I did have an incident with Asda tablets, which seemed to froth into oblivion and would interfere with the first few interim spins, but even then that was dealt with by the 2nd rinse. Gone back to branded stuff (despite still having half a box of Asda stuff left) and not had a problem with rinsing at all.

It’s interesting to say the least how we all get different results with different machines and powder.

Mira old washing machines were indeed hooked up to hot and cold, but most machines only utilised the hot tap to fill the wash water on washes at 60 degrees or above. None, if any of the European front loaders produced in the last 40 years have ever used warm rinsing only the standard cold water rinse, the new LG’s with the Medic Rinse aside. The warm rinse option has long been available on American top-loaders, however, but are a rarity in this country.

Jon

My friend told me about the magnetic ball today. It looks like it works. She had a mechanic in not long ago and he told her that there is no limescale in her washing machine at all. She does not use anything else. The only problem with her washing machine was that she did not clean the filter for the whole 10 years :)

Regarding hot water for rinsing, it is a fact that warm water rinses better than cold. The washing instructions on some of my baby clothes recommend rinsing in warm water. I remember that old washing machines used to be connected to both hot and cold water. I think they used to use warm water for rinsing too. The new washing machines are connected only to the cold water.

When it comes to hard water or soft water, the logic tells me that if you need to use more washing powder with hard water then hard water does not wash as effectivelly as soft water. The same may be true for rinsing.

Thanks for the info about the bearings Oliver. It’s so very sad that by adding extra water to a modern washing machine to get your clothes rinsed properly, it could be putting a bit more strain on the suspension and springs. I don’t care, I’d rather not itch and not have my clothing smell very strongly of detergent. As for the 1600rpm spin, the quickwash re-rinse only spins at this speed for about 1 minute and the clothes are just as well spun as they would be if I run the standard cotton programme with the 1600rpm speed – which spins for ages! For that reason, I lower the spin speed to 900 for the main cotton programme, then have it set to 1600 for the final spin of the re-rinse “quick wash”.

You and Simon Smith both say you can smell a faint smell of the detergent after rinsing in lots of cold water. I wonder why I’m having difficulty smelling *any* detergent fragrance after rinsing in plenty of warm water? Unless my sense of smell isn’t very good?? That said, before I discovered this page, my washing used to smell strongly of the detergent’s perfume and you couldn’t help but to notice the fragrances! Obviously my re-rinsing and warm water method must be working and my skin is better now than it’s ever been. My clothes feel much softer now too, that’s using the same amount of fabric softener.

I am not saying there is a stigma !! The point I am trying to make is that I am not allergic to anything, apart from monosodium glutamate, and it is highly irritating to be told that the problem with modern washing machines not rinsing properly is somehow my fault !! It is not, it is because they do not allow hot water rinses, that is the end of it. If anybody rubbed in dissolved biological washing powder or liquid into their skin they would develop an allergic reaction. When you wear clothes that have not been properly rinsed, when you sweat your sweat “breaks” down the soap residue in your clothes and causes sore, itchy skin. This is NOT an allergy !!

WM User : you are preaching to the converted !! A long time ago … if you wade back to the beginning of this thread … you will see that I used to pour hot water into my washing machine to rinse my laundry! Unfortunately, doing this damaged my last machine which was a bosch, and my latest washing machine, a Miele, knackered its bearings because of the weight of the extra water. My husband had to strip it right down to a pile of parts to replace the bearings on the drum, very cleverly I thought because Miele told him he wouldn’t be able to do it … but he did. I have been banned now from filling it up too much, although there is in fact a water sensor on it to prevent this happening (we did actually have this removed, but it still will only allow you to fill half way up the window).

Reading comments #356 to #358 inclusive, I’ve not heard about the chloramine issue, however if you wish to eliminate laundry detergent being an issue, it’s important to make sure that PLENTY of warm or hot water is added when re-rinsing. The water level should be high enough (up to 1/2 way up the door) and the porthole door glass should feel slightly warm. You’ll be amazed at how much detergent is released from clothes you thought were rinsed properly!! I’ve got my hot water set at 70C, so this higher temperature takes into account that the water cools down as you pour it into the soap drawer and it trickles down into the drum and hits the cold water already there. Eventually, as the volume of warm water increases, the final temperature for rinsing is about 40 – 45C, safe for cottons.

For limescale issues, this is why I always use one spoonful of soda crystals as this guarantees that the hard water doesn’t cause any problems, however I see you use Sainsbury’s water softener. Yes I know using the correct dosage of detergent is supposed to combat limescale, but sometimes you have to use less, i.e. when washing towels or smaller loads, otherwise you get too much foaming. If foaming wasn’t an issue, I’m sure people would be using the right amount of detergent every time. For some reason, modern washing machines don’t seem to be much good at flushing out foam like they used to??

If after several months of proper rinsing you’re still having skin problems, maybe it could be the chloramine, but it could be fabric conditioner, even if you’re using Surcare, you may wish to eliminate that.

One tip for everyone reading: you won’t get very good results if you wash below 40C, regardless of what the detergent manufacturers say! The only time I believe it’s necessary to wash at 30C is for very delicate fabrics like silk or net curtains, otherwise it’s 40C or higher for best results.

hi all,
Let me just say i have done every thing to try and sort
out my washing problem and i mean every thing so i do hope that is clear to every one .
This is a two product fault 1st you have a washing machine
which only uses about 45lt in a wash if you are lucky! .
But what my problem is caused by the new type of washing
powder and liquids when it is mixed with hard water when
doing washing ,the makers have changed it to work at lower
temps but has caused a problem in that the lime now bonds
to the clothes but also with some thing from the washing
powder or liquid which is the 2nd problem and this will
not rinse out because it has bonded to the clothes ,so is
that now clear?.
So the new washing machines are not as good as before ,
but you can add more water , by pipe or jug etc a problem
in itself ! (got the T SHIRT now!).
So this itch and pins problem (read my other comments) use
ECOVER LIQUID ONE CAP FULL , SAINSBURY WATER SOFTENER
ONE TABLESPOON , THIS SHOULD BREAK THE BOND ON A 30
TEMP WASH ONLY ,BUT NOT ON A WET AND BASH WASH
AS NEW WASHING MACHINES NOW DO ,ONE THIRD UP THE
DOOR WITH WATER , THEN EXTRA RINSE AND SURCARE
CONDITIONER 25ML- 35ML PER LOAD 2-3 KGS
HAVE FUN AND GOOD LUCK?.
ADY.

Really interesting thread. Yet another person here who is suffering from skin irritation from poorly rinsed washing.Like several others who’ve contributed here my bedding is cotton and most of my clothes are cotton. The synthetics – which I wash very rarely – rinse fine. In my view if a machine can not rinse towels/sheets/jeans properly it is not fit for purpose.

I find it particularly annoying that the manufacturers will not provide information on rinsing performance. I rate Miele as a firm but when I asked them about how their machines performed they said their rinsing was “excellent” but couldn’t provide any data to back it up. So how do they know it’s excellent???

I asked JLP why they didn’t supply rinsing information for their machines – answer was because the manufacturers would all have to agree apparently and they will not do so until someone forces them to do so.

Like several others I am not “allergic” nor do I have especially sensitive skin and have washed my clothes with out any problems for the last 30 years!

It took me 3 years to work out what was causing it and having done so I am taking it up with the retailer in the hope that they will put pressure on the manufacturer. I am quite willing to take them to the small claims court if necessary. In response to my written complaint they have paid for the service call to establish whether any fault with the machine. Which there isn’t – engineer confirmed that all was working to manufacturer’s criteria.

Interestingly he was suffering from exactly the same problem (itchy skin) since buying a new machine two years ago. There must be a lot of us about…….

I never had any problem before in my life with itchy skin until these stupid EEC regulations came into play such that only an eggcupfull of water is allowed into the machine, and no cold rinse. It is a travesty, and I say yah boo sucks to the EEC. I rinse my clothes by hand in hot water in the sink, and am now starting to have nice fluffy towels and clothes once more. It has taken time, it has taken gallons of water and doubtless the death of thousands of trees due to all the extra carbon, but I am getting there. I wash everything at 60 degrees, with a soak and a pre-wash selected. I put in 1 scoop of “Vanish” and this seems to be doing the trick.

The secret to soft fluffy clothes is rinsing in LOTS of water, preferably warm or even more preferably hot. Of course, some fabrics won’t take this treatment, but as I have said before, I prefer natural fibres of cotton and linen, and all my towels, bed linens and most of my clothes are fine on high temperatures. Anything synthetic is washed at 40 degrees, but I have very little that is synthetic.

HI ALL,
I have sat in front of my washing machine for hours watching the washing cycles very fed up with it all now, so where to go from here with my washing problem, which is after the washing is dry you pick it up and it feels like a load of pins sticking in your hands and lower arms also put a t shirt over your head you the have it on your eye lids a bit like fibre glass loft insulation feel ! and as for putting your hands in your pockets to get keys or coins out.

It is not detergent which is left on my washing i, it is lime which has bonded on the clothes in the wash like dust or fine grit and this is after cold and hot rinses but this lime also has some thing from the washing powder or liquid with it as well a chemical reaction has taken place in the wash i think ? as i can put neat washing powder or liquid on my arm and have no problem with it ( dont try this at home???) .

With what i was told today even calgon does not help and people now find it no longer works with the new powders and liquids , as i found out too using the correct amount? I now using ECOVER DELICATE and SURCARE CONDITIONER which after a few washes this week does look like it is working so far , but still with an extra rinse,
Also i am going to fit WPRO MAGNET PLUG from comet to my washing machine as other people in hard water areas now fit to there washing machine as a water conditioner.
GOOD LUCK OUT THERE ,HOPE THE ABOVE HELPS
ADY.

Washerhelp:

I DO NOT HAVE AN ALLERGY !!

However, in common with most people, if a large amount of detergent is left in my laundry, it will cause me to have eczema/psoriasis/dermetitis, particularly on the “sweaty” areas such as backs of the knees, elbows, middle of the back area (where, in the case of ladies, the bra strap sits). My husband finds that he has a particular problem in the more sensitive areas (not to put too fine a point on it), if I do not rinse out his underwear by hand in hot water after I have washed it in the Miele.

But neither of us have an allergy.

Oliver: no, I did not, I was being heavily sarcastic! Also I refer to CLOTHES … not heavy cotton towels. Towels you cannot rinse in cold water, end of. I actually say that the clothes are still soapy, but nowhere near as soapy as they used to be.

I do not want my clothes to be soapy, neither do I want my towels to be soapy. When I dry my body off after a bath or a shower, I do not want to rub biological washing powder into my skin, which is what I am doing effectively.

Washerhelp: I speak as I find … believe me, for me that was mild !! However, I sincerely apologise if I caused offence. I am more than capable of intelligent debate, which is why I am going to ask you to please NOT take my statements out of context! I did indeed agree with you that the vast majority of people may be perfectly happy with their laundry rinsed in cold water … but I went on to say that this may be due to ignorance, and may be due to the fact that most people use mainly synthetic fabrics. This does not mean that we should have to suffer machines not rinsing properly. As far as I know, towels are always cotton of some sort or another, and these absolutely are not rinsed properly in cold water.

But by all means carry on burying your head in the sand, and claiming that cold water can rinse out detergent effectively. This is total nonsense and flies in the face of scientific FACT. But it’s a free world, so please continue!

I shall continue to state my point of view, and continue to warn everyone I can about this problem. I happen to be a medical secretary, and currently there is an “epidemic” of serious skin and other conditions that could well be related to the recent ridiculous EEC regulations, which all manufacturers have to adhere to apparently. Asthma is dramatically increasing, eczema and other skin problems, and although I believe those that say these can be caused by over-cleanliness in the home, there is also plenty of evidence pointing at detergents being one of the causes.

Washerhelp: I am sorry to be so blunt, but you are talking an absolute load of rubbish! Once and for all, I repeat … YOU CANNOT RINSE PROPERLY IN COLD WATER. It is scientifically impossible to completely break down such that it can be rinsed away detergent from heavy items such as towels and jeans.

Washing machine manufacturers are just plain WRONG !! They have to abide by EEC rules and conform to the ridiculous standards laid down by that bureaucratic pile of pc nonsense. Until fairly recently you could buy washing machines that had hot and cold fill, with the option of warm or hot water rinses. Washing machines throughout history HAVE rinsed adequately … until the recent EEC legislation.

I do not suffer from skin allergies, I do not suffer from exczema … EXCEPT WHEN DETERGENT IS LEFT BEHIND IN MY CLOTHING. I use bio, so if the detergent is not rinsed properly, then I have enzymes on my skin breaking it down and “digesting” it. Frankly, I do not want to be eaten by detergent, so I prefer to have properly rinsed clothing. I will continue to fill up my machine with warm water and run separate wash cycles without soap in an attempt to remove at least some of the massive soap build up I have in my clothes, particularly the heavy cottons and towels. I detest man made fibres, I like cotton, I like linen, I like natural fibres, and these are the ones that hold the detergent the most and need warm or hot water and plenty of it to rinse the detergent away.

The vast majority of people maybe perfectly happy with their laundry rinsed in cold water … partly because the vast majority of people use man made fibres maybe? Also, they live in ignorance. They have no idea that their modern washing machine does not rinse properly, and pour in unnecessary fabric conditioner in order to make their towels less stiff and board-like. I prefer not to use fabric conditioner, or a tumble dryer (which will also soften up towels stiff with detergent), but to actually have properly rinsed clothes thank you very much.

WM User: delighted to hear about your success story ! It is absolutely scientifically impossible to rinse soap, detergent, surfactant, whatever you want to call it – it’s all the same – out of laundry, particularly heavy cotton items such as jeans and towels – without the use of warm or hot water. We are being conned by washing machine manufacturers who say otherwise.

Your tests – as mine – have proved this to be so. Well done you.

Does anyone on here know anything about where the Optical brightener Distryl Biphenyl derivative comes from? Have asked numerous detergent manufacturers but as usual they never reply. Simon

Has anyone else tried rinsing clothes in warm water and noticed a difference? I still follow my method on comment #287 as it’s quicker than all the other methods I’ve tried. For those of you who leave the washing machine unattended and come back to it later on in the day, following the idea on comment #287 should help.

In some situations, you can’t add extra water e.g. owners of some washing machines like certain newer Hotpoints that have the soap drawer concealed behind the big door when its closed or if the washing machine is in a garage, away from a tap.

Until consumers demand washing machines that rinse PROPERLY instead of demanding cheap washing machines that are no good, we will be putting up with partially rinsed clothes and major skin allergies for a very long time!!

Perhaps someone could tell me why Dreft that is marketed for wool and silk contains enzymes? I thought it was supposed to be a gentle detergent but how can it be if it contains enzymes? Simon

Warm water rinsing is the ONLY way to remove detergent completely … I for one do not want detergent left in my laundry, so I have to resort to rinsing my clothes by hand in my sink in warm water as a cheaper option than doing hot washes in the Miele without detergent. It is terrifying how much soap is left behind in laundry washed in modern front loaders. I am convinced that this is at least partially responsible for the rise in asthma and skin conditions such as excema.

Like you WMUser, I have resorted to adding hot water to the washing machine on occasions when I have some “free” hot water in my tank that has been heated by our Coalbrookdale wood burner.

Ahh the WMA30s. Yours would be a couple years younger than you think they came out in 2000 and believe it or not Indesit kept the basic design on Hotpoint machines until as late as last year when the Wales factory closed. But they were their first A wash performance machines though hence why they have the long cycles as you say. Powerhouse they were still around our way until about 4 years ago, we bought our old AEG dishwasher there (I say old, we bought it in 2005 but sold it 6 months later when we got a new kitchen) they always seemed to be far more helpful than the two C’s.

Persil small and mighty isn’t a bad product, although it does foam more than the tablets I’m using. Always seems to be going for quite cheap too, often Sains or Asda have the huge bottles for £4, if its not selling for £4 in one supermarket it generally is in another. Seems a lot more simpler a concept than the gels too the gels certainly perform well but are less value for money. The big bottles sell for £8 I think for only 25 washes or so. I remember you used to be able to buy a huge bottle of Ariel liquid, 50 washes or so, with change from a fiver.

I’ve heard about Amway stuff here and there but not seen it anywhere I presume it’s only available from specialist places?

Jon

My Hotpoint is the WMA30 range but the programme dial does not turn at all. All computer operated. It is a ‘Proper’ Hotpoint though not the Merloni ones now. Was either made in 1997 or 1998 and bought from Powerhouse so shows how long ago that was.

To be honest I never have liked powders or tablets and as I don’t have white clothes not an issue. I keep a small pack for maintenance washes. Liquids are better for me as i find they do rinse easier.

Out of all the mainstream detergents I think Persil Small and Mighty is best for my machine as it doe not produce much foam. I can use Daz regular liquid but not concentrated as it foams loads.

Surf, Ariel and Bold are no go as do not clean well in my machine and again foam too much. Have emailed customer care but are totally unhelpful and useless and only tell me what i already know.

I assume the concentrated liquids don’t have the foam inhibitors in whereas the regular ones do.

Have found Sainsburys own brand excellent and good stain removal.
Currently using Amway Sa8 which gets most stains out most of the time and its 3x concentrated as Persil and Ariel. 10ml is enough for lightly soiled stains and 20 ml heavy soil. No foam at all and rinses completely clean.

Highly recommend.

Simon

In the ideal world Oliver, every washing machine would be like your Bosch WFF2000 and would work fine with Persil Biological on its own. In reality, modern washing machines don’t use enough water, limescale is a nuisance in my “hard water” area and I don’t think many people with expensive designer clothes would wash them at 60C, even if they can. You rarely see wash labels on new garments that recommending washing above 40C.

I’m suspicious that detergent packets recommend using too much – countless times I’ve used the “recommended” amount and seen lots of foam. If using less than recommended can cause limescale damage, then soda crystals are the ideal solution. I’m sure people who have problems with rinsing are probably using much less detergent than recommended, but they risk causing other problems like a dirty washing machine, grease, limescale and mould. Again, soda crystals will allow people to use less detergent without risking limescale damage (in all but “soft” water areas) and improve rinsing because there’s less detergent in the first place. However, regular hot washes are needed to keep the washing machine clean inside.

If soda crystals are known to cause damage to drum spiders, the makers of soda crystals should be contacted immediately!!

Reading through the comments, some of you seem to know a lot about detergents and rinsing. You could e-mail every major washing machine manufacturer and pass on your findings. Since there are only a few manufacturers who make different brands e.g. Electrolux make Zanussi and AEG and others, it won’t take very long to visit the manufacturer’s website and e-mail them with your knowledge. It could help us all, especially the hot rinsing idea and why it works. Alternatively, write to each companies’ head office. :)

See also “Who owns who? Who really makes your washing machine?

Can anyone tell me if Optical brighteners fade coloured clothes? Also does anyone know of a detergent without colourants but include enzymes? I have found when using coloured liquids it takes many rinses to get the clothes clear but if i used ecover 2 rinses would be sufficient.

I agree with you Oliver, these fancy fragrances in detergents, softeners etc. It seems that everything must have perfumes/fragrances, whatever it’s called. Laundry detergent, fabric conditioner, spray perfumes and aftershaves. Let’s not forget bottles of ironing water which claim to make the ironing smell nice. I’m sure all these things don’t do the skin much good and adding these perfumes to detergents and other things also increases the price. I notice that even dishwasher tablets have perfumes, bizarre really when the stuff gets rinsed off thoroughly (if only modern washing machines rinsed that well!!). I know that proper rinsing should rinse away the smell of detergent from the clothing.

@Francis Thyresson. As the Nordic countries demand better rinsing, I hope other countries like Britain will follow suit and only buy washing machines that rinse better. Then manufacturers will be forced to make washing machines that customers demand.

@Nikki Jenkins. I’m also doing the pre-wash and omitting the detergent for the main wash. If things are stained, I give these items a good coat of “Shout” fabric stain remover spray, rub it slightly and leave to soak into the stains for about 10 minutes before washing. I agree with your sentence about the formulation of detergents changing and affecting rinsing. If I use the recommended amount I still see lots of suds towards the end of the main wash.

Would rinsing improve if detergent is added directly to the drum and not the soap drawer? I’m wondering because bits of detergent often get left behind in the soap drawer and maybe end up being flushed down during the rinses? What’s the point in using the soap drawer when it ends up in the drum anyway?

Oliver: it is extraordinary that you are getting good rinse performance from your machine, and I am not.

We have moderately hard water here – hard enough for the kettle to get that brown scale on it – do you have soft water? Maybe this might be at least part of the answer?

It seems that the Nordic countries, and in particular Sweden, where I live, have traditionally demanded better rinsing. Test-winning machines here often have one or several programmes with extra rinsing cycles.

Yours,
F

I think the fact that LG have taken the trouble to add a warm rinse is confirmation that temperature is a key factor in rinsing efficiency. In the numerous tests that I have done in the past I am absolutely certain that conditioner was not involved since I was not using the stuff. I have even conducted serial tests on new towels which shows that the more they are washed the more detergent they seem to accumulate. The amount of detergent retained in clothes depends on the material. Natural fibres such as cotton are the worst. Try the test again Oliver but do it with the towels themselves. The idea of using a thermostatic valve is attractive – I will look into this but my next washing machine will be an LG!

Interestingly, newer LG machines offer not only a Rinse+ and Rinse++ option, but also a Medic Rinse, which is an extra, deep level rinse heated to 40*C.
“Medic Rinse
Washes away detergent residue with an extra, 40-degree rinse at the end of the cycle, making it ideal for a baby’s sensitive skin.”

I still have no problems rinsing in cold water, but perhaps this LG machine would be good for those who would prefer the option. Certainly saves a lot of hassle.

Jon

To anyone interested,

I have adjusted the pressure switch on the IAR Siltal and it now takes in a sensible amount of water to both wash and rinse. I did not want to adjust the wash, but had no choice as level 2 is made up of level 1 and a timed 20 second fill. So for wash it fills up to the bottom edge of the door glass and about 2″ up the door on rinses and wool wash.

Towels are not hard, and although it does not rinse quite as well as my 16 year old Bosch, it is not bad at all. My Mum and Dad are very pleased with my little “adjustment”, they have both remarked that it also washes better and the rinsing is 1000 times better. If I had known about this when the machine was new it would have been changed then. The rinse used to be 3-4″ in the bottom of the drum, hardly enough to properly wet the load let alone remove detergent and muck very well. It has been increased by over 150% and the difference is amazing.

It has 2 adjusters, one for level one and the other tells it when to start distrubting and when to reduce spin speed due to sudslocking etc. I assumed one would be level 1 and the other level 2. It took me an hour and a half to get it just right, I even had it filling half way up the door at one point, but that was too high for wash, so had to strike a balance, which I think I did.

I still sudslocks some times but is a hell of alot less than before, more clear evedence modern washing machines use too little water to rinse, and wash in this case as well. The only down side is increased water and power consumption, but at least it now works properly.

I however would not recommend attempting this if you are unsure as it would be VERY easy to flood the house or damage the machine, also would invalidate any warranty your machine may have. The IAR Siltal is nearly 9 years old now so I was fine. This weekend we shall be replacing the bearings, brushes and belt as well. It has done way over 5500 loads since new, a fair few of which have been overloaded as well. They have been told off for that as well!!

Oliver.

On a note about detergents, do tablets contain less ‘filler’ material than powders? Forget to ask that when I mentioned liquid detergents.

On the subject of water temperature and rinsing you have probably noticed that if you want to clean something then hot water is better. This is because its easier to dissolve something (the dirt) in hot water. In fact of couse this is why washing machines warm the water for wash cycles. For most solids the higher the temperature of the solvent (water) the more material is dissolved.

Some modern detergents are made to try to overcome this to some extent but even these only really start to dissolve at about 32 degrees. The temperature of a cold rinse will be as cold as the water from the cold tap which is much colder than this.
If you want to see this for yourself then take one of those towels you have got which are stiff as a board because of the detergent residue and rinse it in cold water by hand. Then after this rinse it in hot water – you will be shocked at the difference.

This of course is why many people on this thread complain of foaming in their washing machine when they have got towels in there!

We used to have a hot and cold fill hoover keymatic years ago which would do a hot or warm rinse and I used hoses from the hot and cold taps to fill our old twin tub with warm water for rinsing.

Of course I accept that the reduced water volumes in modern washing machines are a factor but in my experience temperature is even more important.

The only way you can efficiently rinse laundry is with HOT or at worst WARM water. That is the bottom line as far as I am concerned. A cold rinse will never ever ever rinse clothes, it is a scientific fact.

I am having some fairly good results with my newly restored Miele using the pre-wash option, so that the clothes are at least semi-rinsed in hot water – by virtue of the fact that at least some of the detergent has been dispensed during the pre-wash.

None of this would be necessary if modern washing machine were not restricted by ridiculously low water levels, and cold rinses. Yet again, I will reiterate that it is SCIENTIFIC FACT THAT YOU CANNOT RINSE LAUNDRY EFFECTIVELY IN COLD WATER. You need warm or hot water, and plenty of it. That is the bottom line.

I SAY BRING BACK THE TWIN TUBS . I HAVE JUST GOT A HOTPOINT TWIN TUB FROM THE HEART FOUNDATION. AND GET ALL THE WASHING DONE IN ONE DAY. AND RINSE IN HOT WATER.
AND BOIL ALL THE WHITES..

I’m STILL having problems with excess foaming when washing towels or small loads and it’s driving me mad!! Even adding the detergent to the pre-wash only (no extra detergent added for the main wash) DOESN’T solve the problem. It’s a nightmare to rinse off the foam!!

From now on, when I have to wash small loads or towels, I will be using just under HALF the recommended amount of detergent, contrary to the advice about less detergent being bad for washing machines. I will only use the recommended amount for full loads. Any stains I will pre-treat with a stain remover spray.

I’ve tried several detergents and I can now conclude that modern laundry detergents create too much foam, even when the correct measure is used. As mentioned further up on comment #59, dishwasher detergents don’t create excessive foam (or if they do, it’s very rare and I’ve never had that problem), so why don’t they use the same anti-foaming ingredients in laundry detergent?

I know that net curtains are a pain for creating too much foam. I think I will use something else when washing the nets next time, not any kind of laundry detergent. Maybe soak them in a bucket of lukewarm water with a few denture cleaning tablets, at least there won’t be masses of foam to deal with.

I can understand the frustration from hlking. Re-running programmes without detergent does take longer and now I’ve got used to doing this without thinking about it (and getting on with 101 things that need doing everyday, whilst leaving the washing machine running).

I wish you good luck in getting a Which? recommended washing machine that washes and rinses properly. Fortunately, Which? tell you BEFORE buying whether a washing machine washes and rinses properly. Maybe the washing machines that Which? say are “good” at rinsing have an “extra rinsing” feature to enhance rinsing that bit more?

I’m hoping the next serious of Watchdog will cover this topic and make the manufacturer’s wake up to the problem.

Watchdog: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mg74

Hi everyone

I’ve had my Bosch for over 6 months now, and I still don’t like it. It doesn’t rinse enough, and I can’t bear the whining noise of the motor. I keep looking on ebay at second hand machines, and wanting to buy one, but there are 2 things stopping me which I hope someone can help me with…

Firstly, I want to have an induction motor, like my old Zanussi had, but I don’t know how to find out if a machine has one or not. I have been checking model numbers on espares to see if they have carbon brushes listed, and was wondering if I can rely on this to indicate what type of motor a machine has? I know that my old Zanussi doesn’t have brushes listed, and my new Bosch does. However, Oliver – you said your WFF2000 has a brushed motor, and yet espares doesn’t list carbon brushes for it… so that makes me think I can’t be sure even if no brushes are listed.

Secondly I will need to transport the machine myself in my car, and I don’t know the best way to do this. I will need to lay it down on its side to get it to fit in the car. Is it OK to transport a machine like this, and which is the best way to do it?

Sorry to hear of everyone else’s problems with this rinsing too… hlking I am wishing you good luck…

Michelle

I have read through this thread with great dismay. As a busy mum of 11 month old triplets I need a relaible machine that is good at EVERYTHING you would expect of a washing machine – and to me that includes the fundamentals of washing and rinsing!! And with the volume of washing that I’m now doing, it must be reliable.

One of the kids is starting to show signs of developing eczema so I’m even more interested in rinse capability (I have always used non-bio gel).

I’m currently used liquitabs as my drawer no longer empties – I have given it a good scrubbing on several occasions to no avail.
We inherited the machine with the house so I have no idea how old it is (am even unsure as to model as it’s integrated and just has a stylised ‘A’ on the front). In addition to the drawer problems one of the progams is now also broken, so I think it’s just slowly disintegrating under the strain!

I don’t have the time to do many of the suggestions listed above, and feel quite indignant that I should have to – but is the consensus that these are the only options?
I’m a subscriber to Which so started my search there, but in view of the above, I’m now not going to spend neary 700 quid on the bosch. Looks like I may have to get ripped off with the nearly as expensive AEG Electrolux or Neff.

Depending on how I get on, I won’t hesitate to try and raise the profile of this via Watchdog.

In the meantime, fingers crossed. Wish me luck with my purchase….

A reply to Oliver’s comment #176 and for anyone trying to re-run programmes without detergent…

Re-running programmes/cycles without detergent or re-running rinses (if the washing machine has a separate rinse-only programme) is a matter of trial and error. In my case, re-running a water guzzling cycle without detergent after the first spin works fine. It spins between rinses, uses extra water and only takes about 1 hour and 30 minutes. The only thing I have to do after this second programme is select the “Spin” cycle with the highest spin speed, as the second programme without detergent doesn’t spin fast enough at the end.

Provided the delicate programmes spin between rinses, use more water than the standard cotton programme and don’t take too long, re-running cycles without detergent may (or may not) work for everyone. You have to try several methods until you find what method works best on your washing machine.

I think gentler agitation is an advantage when rinsing, as too vigorous agitation will create more foam.

Finally, I think I will try the pre-wash idea (that is, adding detergent for the pre-wash only and none for the main wash) if I’m washing a small load or towels, as this may prevent or reduce the excessive foaming. It will mean waiting even longer for the washing machine to finish!!

Don’t keep it to your self Gary. What model is your Hotpoint?

Hi all, is me again, I feel so rude about forgetting about this whole thread, just found it again after sorting out my Hotmail!

I still have to say that, despite being a water efficient machine, our Miele rinses superbly compared to our other older machines – we very rarely use water plus or the extra rinse as often I’m far too much in a rush to wait an extra 15 minutes. We use Ariel or Persil (whichever is on offer really), and we have no skin problems even though 3 of us, myself included, have severe eczema, which can be heavily aggravated by perfumed shower gels, softeners etc. However, my sister suffers from extreme eczema, yet she uses Fairy in a modern Zanussi Essential. Curiously, I noticed the other day when she had the Extra Rinse option selected, that even though adding 2 or 3 rinses, it won’t spin after the rinse cycles AT ALL (this is on cottons 40, which should spin after each rinse), and only does a brief, very slow spin before the softener rinse, before doing the normal 1200rpm spin at the end – thus, giving no better results than if she didn’t press extra rinse, as this would mean at least the washer will spin between rinses to get excess detergent out.

I think I mentioned before, but I’ll say it again, and I firmly believe it’s not just the water level which is a major factor during rinsing, but the interim spins too. One of the reasons why I personally think our Miele rinses so well is that it spins at 1000rpm for about 3 or 4 minutes after the wash (yes, I’ve been sad enough to fiddle with the spin selector mid cycle to see how fast it spins at!), and will spin at 1000rpm between the first rinse and the softener rinse. It makes sense if you think about it that most of the detergent is being spun out after the wash, hence less water and rinses being needed. I’ve noticed with Hotpoints and our old Bosch Exxcel in operation that the spins are quite brief and slow between the wash and the rinses – the Hotpoints/Indesits I’ve seen just do a series of bursts and a short spin rather than a full on spin after the wash – which in turn would hinder rinsing as more sudsy water is remaining in the load by the time the rinse cycle has started – this being even more exagerrated in my sisters Zanussi with the extra rinse being selected, as excess detergent and suds aren’t being removed at all before the rinse phase begins.

I think if more machines did a decent, long, fast spin after the wash and between the rinses, like our Miele, then the lower water levels wouldn’t matter, however it seems some manufacturers like Hotpoint, Indesit and Zanussi have cut down the water level, but not altered the interim spins accordingly.

Simon – we’ve used Sainsbury’s and Asda’s own before, and they are fair. However, we’ve always noticed that if we’ve been using own brand stuff and switch back to the main 3, i.e. Persil/Ariel/Bold, that stuff seems so much cleaner and whiter! BTW using liquid all the time will result in dingy whites, as optical brighteners alone don’t do as good a job as when they are in tandem with oxygen bleach in powders and tablets.

Jon

Why do modern detergents create so much foam if you use a little bit too much for the load size? If I use the recommended amount and I don’t have a full load, my washing machine will create lots of foam in the last 20 – 30 minutes of the main wash programme. This is particularly a problem if I’m washing towels and also a major problem if I wash hotter than 40 degrees. The hotter water does in fact create more foam, maybe that explains why Nikki Jenkins can see more foam when warmer water is used (comment #166)?

Why don’t the manufacturers install a foam sensor in every washing machine, so if excess foaming occurs then the appropriate action can be taken? Excess foaming is solved by allowing the suds to slowly settle for about 30 minutes, then spinning the laundry and starting again.

I live in a hard water area; I can imagine people living in soft water areas have a major problem with foaming? I’m sure too much foam seriously impairs rinsing?

I have to say for me buying a 15 year old machine was the only solution I could think of at the time and am still none the wiser today. I do have to disagree and say there are plenty of parts still available for my Bosch, even though some at a price, £256.00 for a motor for example. But can you put a price on your health?

Plus my Bosch can do a 60oC cotton wash in about 1 hour 15 minutes, it takes a modern machine anywhere between 2-3 hours to do a 60oC and then all the extra re-rinsing of the load and extra final spin, this could take you up to 4 hours, I haven’t the time or inclination to put up with stupid wash times like that, and some will still not rinse properly. Also could damage your clothing.

To Nikki Jenkins, my Bosch uses cold water to rinse (4 rinses 1/3 up the door) and does rinse properly. I suffer from servere dermatitis and eczema and react to the smallest amount of detergent residue. However there could be something in the hot rinsing theory, my dishwasher is on a hot water supply so does rinse in hot water and the pots do not smell of detergent but when it was on a cold supply the pots smelt very strongly, so it does rinse better in hot water. Personally I would feel rinsing in hot water in a washing machine could cause the soap to sud back up, whereas cold water seems to kill it more, I could be wrong, it is my own theory. What about connecting your washing machine to a hot only supply so it rinses in hot water? This would only be acceptable if your water temperature is not above 35/40oC though, or it could damage your laundry or possibly the machine. Plus you would not be able to do low temperature washes if the incoming supply is too hot, again could be wrong only my own thoughts.
Also never heard of a high water level damaging bearings, overloading may do as you also have the weight of the extra water to damage the water seal.

All the best,

Oliver.

Well actually some machines made during the last 20 years did work pretty well. My Indesit 1263 worked from April 96 till Oct 09. and gave a satisfactory wash and rinsed well. We only scrapped it because the bearings were noisy. Oh how I wish I had them replaced or even done them myself!

The repair men are given a stock set of answers to regurgitate in response to rinsing complaints so dont expect much. Our machine is a Miele and the engineer modified it to allow higher water levels. I am told that the level sensor works in this way: As the water level rises it compresses air in a tube. A pressure sensor at the end of the tube (above the drum) is then activated. I think he made the tube longer to allow higher water levels.
Firstly this did not help because you need warm or hot water to rinse effectively – not just more water. Secondly because the water level was often up to the centre of the drum over time it seems water got into the bearings destroying them making the machine uneconomic to repair.

If a modern washing machine kicks the bucket, you really are better off replacing it with an old washing machine that looks at least 20 years old. If it’s been repaired, it will rinse properly and these old washing machines were made to be repairable.

If you’re waiting for your modern washing machine to self destruct, you could make it work harder – and rinse better – by running a water guzzling cycle without detergent, once the first spin after the main wash finishes. Alternatively, re-run the machine’s rinses when it’s finished. Use clear vinegar if necessary.

Hope that helps you Rod Fryatt and other readers too.

Thanks for your comment Oliver. I’m going to look at a Bosch this morning. Don’t know which model it is yet.

I’m currently in the middle of acrimonious communication with Hotpoint about my new Indesit. They keep denying that there is a problem. I have taken the liberty of referring to your communication with them last May. Saying I bet they will have-no record of it. Hope you don’t mind.
Having just spent £330 on a new Indesit I am in the position of having to go out and buy an old machine to get a proper wash and will be considerably out of pocket. I have had so many conflicting replies and visits from Hotpoint that I would be interested to hear what dealing you have had with them. Any contact names etc.

I dont know if it’s relevant or not,but i just have to add praise for Zanussi. i have had a Zanussi washer for sixteen years and have never had any trouble with it, i have never had cause to have it repaired or anything. The washing machine i had before that was also a Zanussi, which i had for eighteen years, also with no trouble and no repairs.Then last week i had to call out the fire brigade as my machine caught fire, the machine has done a very good job, and owes me nothing, now i have the problem of buying another machine,I want another Zanussi, but i am wondering about the jet system.Can anyone comment on the jet system,if they are any good.

Since I commented on this blog in October, I now have a Hotpoint Aqualtis AQ9F 49 U (9 Kg capacity) and the good news is that the ‘Bed & Bath’ cycle seems to work a treat – when using either 1 Persil capsule or 1 Tesco Colours tab! (Haven’t tried it with 2 or 3 capsules or tabs.) No soap left in the washed & rinsed laundry AND no sneezing when using the clothes or bedding when it’s dry. Also, the ‘Shirts’ cycle is good – and again no soap left in the clothes after they are washed & rinsed. SO … I’m going to use one of these cyles for most things. I’m sure both cycles are water guzzling, but that’s fine by me if the cycles rinse the clothes thoroughly!

Well done to Hotpoint for getting it right with at least 2 of their cycle options on this washing machine!

I have tried the “water guzzling” methods, I have tried absolutely everything and have formed the opinion that you cannot rinse properly in cold water. You need hot water to dissolve the detergent, surfactant, whatever you want to call it. I have tried washing the clothes through a complete cycle, just not adding any soap, but that is still not as effective as just simply having a washing machine that rinses with hot water. The rinse action is a very special action in any washing machine, it is designed to rinse not wash, but is not effective unless you use hot water. You can (as you have described) “fool” the machine by a judicious twiddling of knobs at the right time, such that the machine is rinsing with hot water … this will work actually … but we are on Economy 7, and so the washing machine has to run during the night when electricity is cheaper. I am not prepared to wake up in the middle of the night to twiddle a few knobs !!

So … I am left with the white vinegar option, which is a brilliant one if I were a millionaire! I have searched everywhere for bulk white vinegar – Aldi, Lidl, the internet – and you can only get malt (brown) vinegar in bulk, except on the internet, and then the delivery charges are prohibitive.

The most water guzzling cycle on my machine is the Wool setting by the way.

Thanks for your helpful suggestions. It is a shame that we are on Economy 7, although I suppose with the problem items like towels I could just wash these during the day and knob twiddle … hang the expense!

I chose the new name WMUser as the name WhatMatters sounds a bit harsh, but I was really annoyed at the time I created that name. It is really annoying that today’ washing machines don’t rinse properly and it’s yet another annoying part of everyday life (I won’t make a long list of everyday annoyances, it would be miles long lol).

I agree with what you say Washerhelp: I can’t understand why such a washing machine is a Best Buy. I think all Which? members should complain to Which? and insist that only washing machines with Good rinsing or better should be awarded a Best Buy. That could force the washing machine manufacturers to improve rinsing, as they strive to achieve the Best Buy award.

(Formerly called “WhatMatters”).

Hi, I am writing another posting as I’ve discovered on the Which? website a washing machine rated “very poor” for rinsing on the cottons cycle is a “Best Buy”. Get this: Which? suggests using the “easy care” programme if you have sensitive skin, as there is no extra rinse option. However the cleaning is not as good on this washing machine’s “easy care” programme.

Due to copyright I can’t reveal the make/model.

It is alarming that a washing machine that is very poor at rinsing with no extra rinse can be awarded a “Best Buy”. At least Which? warn you about the very poor rinsing.

As I put earlier, if you own a modern washing machine, you have to force it to rinse better. Has anyone had any luck with this?

One thing that is being overlooked is old detergent being left behind in the washing machine and the build up of grease, mould and bad smells. If you run the washing machine with no laundry and see some soap bubbles, then it’s a good idea to clean out the washing machine to remove the old detergent. I reckon bad rinsing is also leaving behind detergent in the washing machine itself, not just in your clothes!

There’s plenty of advice about cleaning out washing machines. It’s probably best to start off by pulling out the soap drawer and giving that a clean and also clean the recess where the drawer goes into (it can get very dirty in there!). Then clean the pump filter before we clean out the empty washing machine on a boil wash with vinegar or a suitable washing machine cleaner (before anyone recommends using a washing powder with bleaching properties, we’re trying to remove existing detergent and not add to it).

Having done all that, hopefully you can be one step closer to better rinsing by trying out the ideas mentioned earlier, like re-rinsing etc.

I tried the clear vinegar trick by putting vinegar in the compartment for fabric conditioner, to the “max” mark. Then on the rinse-hold, turned off the machine and added my “sensitive” fabric conditioner and turned the dial to “rinse” (in order to run the rinse cycles again), with the final spin speed set at 1600 rpm.

Clear vinegar seems to have done something… emptied the drum and had a job to smell *any* sort of fragrance. 3 towels that I included in the load felt much softer when they dried.

I hope this solution works and alleviates allergies after a few months. Please remember not to overload the drum and to only use clear vinegar, not brown vinegar or any other colour. Re-rinse and good luck :)

I don’t know exactly why vinegar improves rinsing, it could be that detergent is alkaline and vinegar is acidic, the vinegar probably lowers the alkali pH nearer to neutral (pH 7 I think?). Maybe the vinegar works in other ways when used in rinsing? I’ve seen plenty of tips on websites about using vinegar on fabrics for other purposes e.g. stain removal.

Hope it helps. :D

Using white (clear/distilled) vinegar before re-rinsing might help. I will try it next time I use the washing machine. I will fill up the fabric conditioner part of the soap drawer with clear vinegar, then on the rinse-hold (i.e. final rinse), refill the fabric conditioner compartment with actual fabric conditioner and then re-rinse.

Doing a Google search for “vinegar laundry” (without the speech marks) returns a lot of results about the benefits of using vinegar on fabrics, not just for neutralising detergent, but for stain removal and so on.

It might work out cheaper to buy the vinegar in larger bottles or containers, if you use it a lot. Brown (malt) vinegar is likely to stain everything, so not a good idea to use that variety!!

This might be the final piece of the jigsaw puzzle, if it really works? I’ve read that some people actually use clear vinegar as a substitute for fabric conditioner – it’s claimed to work just as well. I wonder if it really does?

New discovery I made today (24th October 2009) that will horrify owners of modern washing machines…

I washed some towels and I did NOT use too much detergent. On the rinse-hold, I could see the water was cloudy and there were still soap bubbles. Remember, this is AFTER the washing machine had rinsed the towels. I know I didn’t press “extra rinse” but the DEFAULT setting is NO “extra rinse”. It makes no difference if you press “extra rinse” anyway.

Knowing that re-running the rinses was unlikely to work, I switched off the machine and found the instruction book, had a look at the wash cycles and saw that the “Duvet” cycle uses the most water (75 litres). (It’s a 7kg machine but can only just fit a single duvet!! The marketing rubbish didn’t mention the words “single duvet”, it just makes out it can wash “a” duvet.)

Anyway, after running the “Duvet” cycle (without detergent), followed by a separate “Spin” cycle at 1600 rpm (the duvet cycle won’t spin faster than 700 rpm), I did manage to get the towels rinsed properly and it took over 3 hours in total!!!!

My discovery… towels are very difficult to rinse. If you are trying to force your washing machine to rinse everything properly, washing a drum full of towels is a TRUE test. Don’t worry about overloading – a full drum of towels quickly becomes half full as the towels get wetter.

So my comment #110 is probably the only “universal” solution. If you follow that idea, it takes a long time to get through a wash load, so you probably won’t want to watch the clock. It’s total madness just to get your laundry rinsed properly, a luxury we had until about 15 years ago.

Don’t forget that if your own laundry is being rinsed fine doesn’t mean that when you stay at a friends, bed and breakfast, a hotel etc. that the bed sheets there will be rinsed properly. That alone clearly illustrates the magnitude of this problem!

H. This is a really interesting website and I will try some of the suggestions above! I have just left the following message on thewhitegoodshelp.co.uk (many thanks for your reply,Andy -much appreciated) and it is reassuring to hear that I probably am not totally paranoid about laundry not being rinsed properly and being totally irritated by having to rinse clothes by hand in the sink…

“Hi,I hope you can help with possible suggestions as to why my laundry comes out of my washing m/c unrinsed,despite it going through the rinse cycles and even through ‘extra’ rinse cycles.

Over the last 2 years I have had 5 m/cs, 4 of these being brand new. The brands have been Bosch, Whirlpool, Zanussi and now another brand new m/c – Hotpoint – so all good reputable manufacturers. Each has had the same problem: The m/cs all wash well, but despite water going into the m/cs for rinsing and then expelling the water, I have to take the laundry out of the machine, rinse it in the sink 3-4 times (towels are particularly bad) and put it back into the m/c again to spin. (Just in case there was a problem with a possibly blocked outlet down-pipe, I have even put the outlet hose over the sink and the water that pours into the sink is soapy white with bubbles too. Also, the water valve for the inlet hose has been replaced, just in case that was faulty).

None of the manufacturers’ engineers who have been out to check out the m/cs cant suggest a reason as to why there is this problem. Although I live in a hard water area, there appears to be no furring up of the water pipes in my house, the external water pressure has been measure by my local water company who was if anything the water pressure is above the recommended/average water pressure rather than below.

Any suggestions? I don’t have the energy to return yet another washing m/c … but I can’t continue rinsing the laundry in the sink after every wash.”

My next step, if I have any energy left, is to write a similar message in a letter to all the manufacturers whose washing m/cs I have had to return because of this problem.

Good luck to all of you …
Marion

Oliver

My washing machine is a Zanussi/Electrolux, not sure of the exact model number. Like all newer washers, it won’t rinse properly unless YOU force it to rinse properly. Just pressing the “extra rinse” does NOT make it rinse properly. With extra rinse selected on the cottons cycle, it performs 2 extra rinses – 5 total – don’t get excited… there’s barely any water in each rinse and the stupid machine only starts spinning very slowly AFTER the 3rd rinse has drained (but no suds-locking occurs). Rinse 4 is followed by a very slow spin, rinse 5 has the softener added, followed by the final spin of 1600 rpm, unless you chose a lower speed.

I now follow my method on comment #106 every time. The rinse-hold option uses lots more water and pauses the machine, so that extra water probably helps enormously? Re-rinsing (without the extra-rinse option) gives me a total of SIX rinses with faster spinning between ALL the rinses. It doesn’t take that much longer to finish and most of today’s washing machines are larger capacity anyway, so you can get more washing done each time.

The synthetics cycle sudslocks on the rinses: for some unknown reason, it will spin briefly and the pump will stop before it’s had chance to pump away all the soapy water, then it refills and the soapy water gets transferred over to the next rinses!!!!! Another good reason to re-rinse.

One very important point I forgot to mention earlier… overloading the drum will prevent proper rinsing and impair cleaning performance. I doubt re-running the rinses will help if you put in too much washing. Bulkier items (e.g. washable coats) need lots more room to move about.

I believe the washing machine manufacturers will NEVER make washing machines rinse properly any more. The eco-friendly people would not allow them to use lots of water for rinses. If you require proper rinsing, it’s a do-it-yourself job unfortunately. Does anyone like the idea of wearing clothes saturated with left-over detergent chemicals, even if you’re not allergic?

It’s always the simplest solutions that work best. I would think every washing machine made in the past 10 years can be forced to re-rinse, whether it involves switching off and turning the dial back to the beginning of the rinse cycles or something else.

Anyway… I thought I’d try this “easy” method and re-rinse. I used the rinse-hold option on my machine, so the clothes are left in water until I’m ready to advance the programme: I turned the selector to “off”, added the fabric conditioner, turned the dial selector to the “rinse” position and choose the correct spin speed. Switched on and let it do the rinses again and perform the final spin.

So far so good :)
Clothes no longer feel like sandpaper, there’s no smell of detergent perfumes, no little white marks on the clothes and no traces of foam on the door seal or inner door glass. What a difference!!

You may want to forget my previous suggestions and other drastic ideas mentioned previously. Anyone can do this re-rinsing and it really works (preferably if you have “rinse hold” on your machine, it reminds you to re-rinse). Also you won’t need to press the “extra rinse” option (or whatever it’s called on your machine). Ironically, I found that by NOT pressing the “extra rinse” button, the machine spins faster between the rinses (without sudslocking), I have no idea why.

Only one thing to be careful with: if you have to select the spin speed when you re-run the rinse cycles, be careful not to spin your delicates too fast e.g. curtains or they won’t look nice afterwards!

Readers – please let me know if this works after trying it for a few weeks. One last thing: fabric conditioner can also chemical sensitivity, something to consider if you’re having allergic reactions to laundry and chemicals.

Thanks for reading and good luck. :D

The allergy UK website has a tips page which suggests that you re-rinse your clothes when the machine finishes. Look on the page under the section about \”Windows mirrors and glass\” in the last paragraph of that part – yes that *is* typed properly and *is* under \”Windows mirrors and glass\” and it does indeed mention that new washing machines now use a lot less water than the older ones

If nobody likes the idea of filling their machine up with extra water or trying other ideas mentioned above such as tampering with the washing machines \”adjustable tuning slug\” whatever that is and so on and so on…… the simplest way is to follow the suggestion and run the rinse cycle a second time. Yes it means waiting longer but worth it!

Has anyone tried Amway SA8 laundry detergent and if so do they think it is good? I have found you need to wash at 50C to get stains out even stains like mud whereas Persil or Ariel get mus out at 30C or 40C.

Also I have noticed some of my clothes have shrunk in the wash lately but I do not why. They have been put on the appropriate programme and spin cycle. Could detergents cause shrinkage?

I forgot to mention something that’s really obvious… over 2/3’s of our planet Earth is WATER. In fact, 71% of the Earth’s surface is covered by water (look on Wikipedia for water, it currently says 71%). Also the oceans are miles deep! I’m sure many people know about the “water cycle” too. In plain English: water never disappears, it comes back!

So why are we being told off for using “too much” water? Really, why? Washing machines need LOTS of water to rinse all of the detergent out of fabrics, which they did fine before the do-gooders told the washing machine manufacturers to use less water.

You never heard of so many cases of allergies years ago, nowadays most people are allergic to something! It’s obvious there’s a correlation – less water in rinsing = more allergies!

Okay, the MAIN wash doesn’t need as much water because it’s being heated, obviously more water being heated uses more electricity. But during the rinse cycles the extra water uses no more energy because it doesn’t get heated.

I can keep mentioning obvious things forever, but the last one: I don’t remember old washing machines having an “extra rinse” button, because they rinsed properly anyway. Am I right in saying that old (1970’s and 1980’s) washing machines did not have options for rinsing better?

Oliver
The pre-wash “trick” seems to work and during the main wash programme I still notice plenty of suds. If you put slightly too much detergent in or don’t put enough laundry in the drum my machine is prone to foaming too much. Not tried this with stained laundry, but you have to treat stains before washing anyway. If anyone copies this “trick” (comment 97) and finds it cleans well and improves rinsing (or not), I would be keen to find out.

I’ve noticed rinsing is better and I’ve not had to fill the machine with extra water during the rinses, but have enable the “extra rinse” option every time I use the machine.

I know some people who have used soda crystals for years and never had any problems. The packet would not say you could use them in washing machines if they were known to cause damage. I know they soften water and are well known for removing grease and oil stains. There is a page on this site about soda crystals and washing machines:
Soda crystals and washing machines

Could you make a video on youtube on how to adjust pressure switches for higher water levels, in Plain English? It would be wise to warn viewers of the risks involved lol!!

Cheers.

There is a simple way to get more water into the drum for better rinsing.Every washing machine contains a water level transducer to which are connected tubes from the drum.When the water reaches a certain level in the drum,the pressure transducer activates and sends a signal to the electronics to close the water inlet valve.

However there are ‘adjustable tuning slugs’ on the pressure transducer so that the level of water can be adjusted.I experimented on a Hotpoint and manage to get the drum completely full of water!.So careful how you make adjustments.

I am a retired electronics engineer and would love to design a washing machine complete with PID temperature control,brushless motor, etc etc.but I’m afraid the cost would be prohibitive.

Our 21 year old Hotpoint 96700 Top Loader has just expired having given no previous trouble at any time in it’s long life. The repair man says the gearbox may have seized and of course these are now obsolete. In our opinion this is a superb machine of which this is the third we have purchased. They have all lasted into double figures. Nothing else washes as white or rinses as clean. My wife was a chronic eczema sufferer and these machines have played their part in her relief from allergies. Does anyone know where a replacement gearbox or machine may be found? Any of the original Hotpoint Top Loaders will be acceptable.

Well, I had 2 Hoover washing machines that, between the two of them, lasted over 27 years. No problem whatsoever with smell or grey slime. Didn’t even know it could be a problem.

My new machine is a Bosch and grey slime is a mega problem, though I haven’t changed my habits at all. I don’t use fabric conditioner, don’t add too much powder (I am mean if anything) and do the occasional 60 deg wash. I guess it must be the poor rinsing that is to blame.

So, does anyone know if the new Hoover machines have developed this problem? Have they sacrificed the rinse to be eco-friendly?

I would put up with the noise (if they are still noisy), anything to escape the grey slime. I only changed to Bosch because the Hoovers were noisy and my Bosch dishwasher lasted 20 years. I just hope this machine doesn’t last 20 years.

Hi again Oliver :D

Ah cool yes thought Fast Wash 60C rinses should be high as they are only quick and as for Super Wash 60C well my machine doesn’t have it. The new Hotpoints don’t have that programme anymore. The synthetics programme is a fair bit below the fast wash 60C rinse water level on mind which is good too. Shame you don’t have the Hottie anymore :( but the reconditioned Bosch sounds great, what model is it :) infact I know someone on YouTube which has a recondtioned Bosch I think. You might not know me from there though, my account is HooverAC110. As for the intermediate spin speeds well Hotpoint have changed the Cottons to 1000rpm and the Synthetics 600rpm. Fast wash 60C is a little faster at 800rpm, this is only between the rinses though because on all programmes (which do spin after the wash) are all at 600rpm.

Thanks again :D sorry for the delay though :S

Gary

Our Hotpoint WML540(G) rinses perfectly with any load, I did an overloaded towels wash after being on holiday approx. 7 or 8kg of bath towels, bath sheets, hand towels etc. and I used the Cottons+ 60+ programme (2 hours). and even after a sudslock in the first spin, the final rinse water was almost clear.

I think the Hotpoint washer have the best way of rinsing, which is slow tumbles in low water level then very fast tumbles in high water level, which in our machine fills almost half way up the door!

Even if the Mini Load option has been selected (which reduces wash & rinse time aswell as rinse water) the rinse is just as good, even without softner (I don’t use softner on towels).

So yes I do think there is an issue with rinsing in some machines but definitely not in the new Hotpoint WML range.

Where can I buy a Hotpoint top loader second hand? Model numbers Electronic De Luxe 9600, 9604 and 9605? The hotpoint wma30 is absolutely rubbish at rinsing unless i use ecover liquid. However i need to use bio as cleans better. Even a twin tub would be better than the modern rubbish we have no. Failing that I suppose it will have to be an Amercican top loading washing machine. Any recommendations greatly appreciated.