Can you put a fridge freezer in a garage?
If a combined fridge-freezer in a cold garage is defrosting in winter, the most likely cause is not a fault – it is that the fridge-freezer has a single thermostat in the fridge section that is shutting off because the garage is already cold enough to keep the fridge at temperature. When this happens, the freezer also shuts off and food can begin to defrost. This is a known limitation of single-thermostat combined units, not a covered fault under guarantee.
Thousands of fridge-freezers in UK homes are installed in garages and outbuildings. Most of the time this works fine – but in cold winters, a specific and well-known design limitation in many combined fridge-freezers causes the freezer section to defrost. It is not a fault. It is a consequence of the appliance’s climate class rating and single-thermostat design.
The Key Temperatures to Know
Minimum ambient temperature most standard UK fridge-freezers are rated to work in (climate class SN)
Target temperature inside the fridge compartment
Target temperature inside the freezer compartment
Ambient threshold below which the single thermostat shuts off in a combined unit
What Happens When the Garage Gets Cold
Combined fridge-freezers with a single thermostat – which is the majority of domestic models – have the thermostat sensor located inside the fridge compartment. This thermostat controls the compressor that cools both compartments. Here is the chain of events that leads to freezer defrost in a cold garage:
The ambient temperature in the garage falls to around 0 to 4 degrees or below. This typically happens on cold winter nights or during extended cold spells.
The fridge section only needs to reach 0 to 5 degrees to satisfy the thermostat. In a 4-degree garage, the cold ambient air achieves this without the compressor needing to run. The thermostat sensor reads “cool enough” and shuts the compressor off.
With one compressor controlled by one thermostat, the freezer section gets no active cooling while the fridge thermostat is satisfied. The freezer compartment begins to warm toward the ambient garage temperature.
Even a garage temperature of 4 to 8 degrees – too cold for humans to notice much – is far warmer than the minus 18 degrees the freezer needs. If the thermostat stays off for several hours or longer, frozen food begins to thaw. Ice cream is usually the first obvious sign.
In milder cold spells the thermostat may cut back in before a complete defrost, causing food to partially thaw and refreeze. The owner may not notice unless the quality change is obvious. Food that has been repeatedly partially defrosted and refrozen has reduced quality and shorter safe storage life.
Which Appliances Are Affected?
Combined fridge-freezers with a single thermostat
The majority of domestic combined fridge-freezers. The thermostat is in the fridge section and controls the entire appliance. These are the units that fail in cold garages as described above. Budget models are more likely to have this design – a second thermostat adds cost.
If you can only set one temperature dial for the whole appliance, it probably has a single thermostat. If separate temperature controls exist for fridge and freezer independently, it likely has two thermostats and is less susceptible to this problem.
Standalone freezers and separate fridges
A standalone freezer has its own thermostat set to reach minus 18 degrees. No UK garage temperature comes close to this – the ambient cold cannot satisfy the freezer thermostat, so the compressor keeps running and the freezer stays frozen. Standalone freezers generally cope well in garages, subject to the general climate class range and condensation considerations.
Can You Claim Under Guarantee?
Almost certainly not. The appliance is installed outside its specified climate class operating range. The manufacturer’s guarantee applies to appliances used as intended – in a temperature-controlled indoor kitchen environment. An engineer attending under guarantee in this situation will typically confirm there is no fault and advise that the installation environment is the cause.
The stronger argument is with the retailer at the point of sale. It is widely known in the trade that a significant proportion of fridge-freezer call-outs involve garage installations in cold weather. A well-advised retailer should ask where the appliance is being installed and advise accordingly. In practice, many do not.
If a combined fridge-freezer defrosted and it was not in a cold garage, or the garage temperature did not drop significantly below 10 degrees, do not assume this article describes the cause. Faults in the defrost heater, thermostat, or sensor can cause the same symptoms for entirely different reasons. See our guides on how frost-free defrosting works and fridge-freezers in garages for further diagnosis.
What Can Be Done?
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Replace the combined unit with a separate fridge and standalone freezer. The standalone freezer will not suffer this problem. This is the most reliable long-term solution for a cold garage installation. -
Replace with a combined fridge-freezer that has dual thermostats. A unit with separate temperature controls for fridge and freezer sections has independent thermostats. The freezer thermostat will continue to run the compressor regardless of how cold the garage gets. Confirm with the retailer before purchasing. -
Look for a garage-rated appliance. Some manufacturers now produce fridge-freezers specifically rated for cold environments, with climate classes that extend down to minus 15 degrees or lower. Search for “garage-rated fridge-freezer” or confirm the specific climate class rating before buying. -
Keep the garage above 10 degrees. A frost-protection setting on an oil-filled radiator placed in the garage during cold spells would prevent the thermostat shutting off – but this must run continuously during cold periods, which is not always practical or economical.
Related Guides
Related Guides
Can You Put a Fridge-Freezer in a Garage?The full guide to why single-thermostat fridge-freezers fail in cold garages – and which types work better.
Fridge and Freezer Climate ClassesWhat the climate class ratings mean and the temperature ranges for each class.
How Frost-Free Defrosting WorksHow automatic defrost cycles work – and what happens when the defrost system itself fails.
Frosting Up in a Fridge or FreezerOther causes of excessive frost or ice formation – door seal checks and levelling.
Frequently Asked Questions
Why is my freezer defrosting in the garage in winter?
If the garage temperature has dropped to around 4 degrees or below, the most likely cause is that the fridge-freezer’s single thermostat has shut the compressor off because the fridge compartment is already cold enough from the ambient air. With the compressor off, the freezer stops receiving active cooling and food begins to defrost. This is a known design limitation of combined fridge-freezers with a single thermostat – it is not a component failure or a covered fault.
Will a chest freezer or standalone freezer work in a cold garage?
Generally yes. A standalone freezer has its own thermostat set to maintain minus 18 degrees. UK garage temperatures never reach minus 18 degrees, so the thermostat keeps calling for cooling regardless of how cold the ambient temperature gets. The compressor continues to run normally. Subject to the general climate class operating range and condensation management, standalone freezers typically work well in UK garages.
Is my food safe after a partial defrost?
Food that has partially defrosted and refrozen may be unsafe to eat depending on what it is and how warm it got and for how long. Meat, fish, and dairy products are most at risk. If food has thawed to a temperature above 5 degrees for more than 2 hours, it should be discarded rather than refrozen. If the defrost was mild and brief and the food is still cold to the core, the safety risk is lower – but when in doubt, throw it out. If the appliance has a temperature alarm and it has triggered, treat all freezer contents as compromised.
166 Comments
Grouped into 141 comment threads.
2 replies I used this forum when I had problems 2 years ago and discovered then that Beko were the only company to claim their appliance would function in a garage environment. Unfortunately the Beko fridge freezer i bought then has now died. It would cost more to repair the broken compressor than buy a new identical appliance, the throw away society we live in I guess. Here's hoping I have better luck this time around! I
2 replies Thanks for clarification Nutella: In comment #4 you kept referring to "fridge" so I became confused about which appliance you had problems with. As far as I'm concerned the idea of having a fridge=freezer controlled only by one thermostat seems bizarre. I'm assuming it's only on cheaper fridge freezers as it's only advantage I can imagine is saving money on a second thermostat or sensors for the freezer section. Your particular issue hinges on whether it's reasonable to expect that a fridge freezer installed in a kitchen should work properly even if the heating isn't on. What if you go away on holiday for a fortnight in winter and the heating is (quite reasonably) turned off? This would mean potentially all your food in the freezer could defrost. I would think it's possible this isn't reasonable, or that a fridge freezer so designed is possibly not fit for its purpose - particularly a class N. Is it reasonable for a manufacturer of fridge freezers to expect your kitchen to never drop below 16 degrees? (in the case of a class N appliance). You would need to seek the advice of the consumer people Consumer Advice Guide to get an opinion. Please keep us informed.
Thanks for clarification Nutella: In comment #4 you kept referring to “fridge” so I became confused about which appliance you had problems with.
As far as I’m concerned the idea of having a fridge=freezer controlled only by one thermostat seems bizarre. I’m assuming it’s only on cheaper fridge freezers as it’s only advantage I can imagine is saving money on a second thermostat or sensors for the freezer section.
Your particular issue hinges on whether it’s reasonable to expect that a fridge freezer installed in a kitchen should work properly even if the heating isn’t on. What if you go away on holiday for a fortnight in winter and the heating is (quite reasonably) turned off? This would mean potentially all your food in the freezer could defrost.
I would think it’s possible this isn’t reasonable, or that a fridge freezer so designed is possibly not fit for its purpose – particularly a class N. Is it reasonable for a manufacturer of fridge freezers to expect your kitchen to never drop below 16 degrees? (in the case of a class N appliance).
You would need to seek the advice of the consumer people Consumer Advice Guide to get an opinion. Please keep us informed.
Likely replying to Washerhelp
Hi Washerhelp, You’ve hit the nail on the head here – it is totally unreasonable for an appliance designed for use in the UK and on sale here, to be incapable of operating at temperatures below 16 Deg C when the average temperature for the region is only 11 Deg C. It is definitely NOT fit for purpose in the UK! I’ve e-mailed Consumer Direct with all the details and I’m waiting to hear back from them. This issue has made me so angry its been really good to receive your feedback, help and advice, to give my arguement better structure. Thank you so much!
2 replies Very informative website! Thank you for your quick response! Problems with the fridge I bought from Comet have lead me to research the subject. The concern is that my drafty kitchen gets very cold - only 2 Deg C in January this year, brrr! So whether the current fridge is class SN or N won't matter because neither can cope with such low temperatures. I'm looking for a fridge that can cope most of the time, say down to 6 Deg C but I haven't been able to find any capable of operating at less than 10 Deg C. Any suggestions? From your other articles it seems that a larder fridge would be more likely to keep working in low ambient temperatures, rather than one with a 4* ice box / freezer compartment?
Very informative website! Thank you for your quick response! Problems with the fridge I bought from Comet have lead me to research the subject. The concern is that my drafty kitchen gets very cold – only 2 Deg C in January this year, brrr! So whether the current fridge is class SN or N won’t matter because neither can cope with such low temperatures. I’m looking for a fridge that can cope most of the time, say down to 6 Deg C but I haven’t been able to find any capable of operating at less than 10 Deg C. Any suggestions?
From your other articles it seems that a larder fridge would be more likely to keep working in low ambient temperatures, rather than one with a 4* ice box / freezer compartment?
Likely replying to Nutella
Hello Nutella. The issue raised in this article relates to fridge freezers with only one thermostat in the fridge, where if the fridge compartment turns off because the ambient temperature of the room is cold the side effect is that the freezer compartment also stops working and can partially defrost. This is because such an appliance only has one compressor pumping the coolant around and it stops running when the fridge thermostat shuts off.
If you are talking of a fridge unit only, what problems are you experiencing? If it’s class SN it should operate OK down to 10 degrees Centigrade. However, I have to confess I’m unsure why a fridge, who’s sole purpose is to reduce the temperature inside to between 0 and 5 degrees centigrade should stop working if the temperature of the room is between 5 and 10 degrees C.
I can understand the issues at the top end of the temperature range. I can understand it struggling to work in a very hot environment, but I would have thought maintaining an internal temperature of 0 – 5 degrees would be assisted by the outside temperature being say 8 degrees, not hindered.
On the other hand, when the temperature in your kitchen is only 2 degrees then presumably your fridge doesn’t even need to be on. Have you used a fridge thermometer to observe the temperature inside when it is cold in the kitchen?
My article How are fridges and freezers affected by the room temperature? points out that a fridge would normally only stop running if the temperature drops to around only a few degrees. In this situation though I would have thought it wouldn’t be a problem unless it was a fridge freezer with only one thermostat in the fridge because the freezer would then stop working.
Anyone wanting to run a fridge freezer in a garage should ensure it has separate thermostats for the fridge and freezer, or buy separate fridge and freezers to reduce this problem.
Likely replying to Washerhelp
Hello Washerhelp, My fridge is Climate Class N but that wasn’t included in the product info in the store, and when complaining to their Store Manager, he confessed he wasn’t aware of it!
As you quite rightly pointed out, the freezer compartment of my fridge defrosts when the fridge cuts out because they share a common thermostat and compressor, although like you, I would have thought that cooler ambient temperatures (but not below 5 Deg C) would help a fridge dissipate heat energy?!
I agree that when the temperature in the kitchen is 5 Deg C or less, I don’t need a fridge BUT I need to keep my food below 5 Deg C when the ambient temperature is higher. According to MET Office data, the AVERAGE temperature for South East England during 2008 was 11 Deg C. Do you know of a Climate Class which goes down to 6 Deg C, or which manufacturers provide fridges that can operate down to 6 Deg C?
1 reply A search of the Beko website for "Twin stat" or "Twin thermostat" finds nothing
A search of the Beko website for “Twin stat” or “Twin thermostat” finds nothing
Likely replying to Kevin Boardley
@Kevin Boardley
most likely the method is the same I have been successfully using with my two combos. I built a circuit to monitor ambient temperature and turn on a 15W lamp in the fridge (lower) compartment whenever the outside temp falls too low.
If anybody is interested I can build a few more.
1 reply Thanks to all correspondents for their interesting comments, especially Washerhelp! 1. So do I conclude that the Climate Class specification is only applicable to fridge-freezers with a single thermostat control? If so, why does my cheap new Argos freezer have a plate specifying climate class N (the smallest temperature range) ? 2. I understand that BS/EN 153 specifies the meaning of these figures. Has anyone actually read it or got a copy? It has to be purchased. Perhaps it can be found in a library somewhere. 3.The plate on my freezer shows two contacts (with a dotted line round them labelled 'thermostat' ) in series with the motor (in addition to the motor protection). One has the symbol 'theta' next to it (conventionally a temperature sign), the other has a line with a little cranked end, presumably to indicate a manually operated switch. There does not seem to be a switch on the rotary thermostat setting control, so what is this switch? 4. Is it possible that the compressor would not work too well if the temperature drops below the minimum ambient specified? I would that is unlikely. 5. We are left with the question 'why does a single appliance freezer carry the same climate plate as a fridge-freezer'? Could it be one of those situations where the figure only apples to relevant products, but is universally used to show the high temperature limits? I wish I had EN153! Just realised I haven't scanned all the latest comments, so forgive me if the answers are already listed.
Thanks to all correspondents for their interesting comments, especially Washerhelp!
1. So do I conclude that the Climate Class specification is only applicable to fridge-freezers with a single thermostat control? If so, why does my cheap new Argos freezer have a plate specifying climate class N (the smallest temperature range) ?
2. I understand that BS/EN 153 specifies the meaning of these figures. Has anyone actually read it or got a copy? It has to be purchased. Perhaps it can be found in a library somewhere.
3.The plate on my freezer shows two contacts (with a dotted line round them labelled ‘thermostat’ ) in series with the motor (in addition to the motor protection). One has the symbol ‘theta’ next to it (conventionally a temperature sign), the other has a line with a little cranked end, presumably to indicate a manually operated switch. There does not seem to be a switch on the rotary thermostat setting control, so what is this switch?
4. Is it possible that the compressor would not work too well if the temperature drops below the minimum ambient specified? I would that is unlikely.
5. We are left with the question ‘why does a single appliance freezer carry the same climate plate as a fridge-freezer’? Could it be one of those situations where the figure only apples to relevant products, but is universally used to show the high temperature limits? I wish I had EN153!
Just realised I haven’t scanned all the latest comments, so forgive me if the answers are already listed.
1 reply This main specific problem discussed on this article is caused by a single stat controlling a fridge/freezer, but it's possible some of these modern gasses are shaky at "low" temperatures which are relatively high such as 14 C too. I don't know how Beko get theirs to work at much lower temperatures, presumably they still have to use the modern "environmentally friendly" gasses by law.
This main specific problem discussed on this article is caused by a single stat controlling a fridge/freezer, but it’s possible some of these modern gasses are shaky at “low” temperatures which are relatively high such as 14 C too.
I don’t know how Beko get theirs to work at much lower temperatures, presumably they still have to use the modern “environmentally friendly” gasses by law.
Likely replying to Washerhelp
Hi washerhelp
I know. But from everything I am reading it is not a simple as that. Many are sold as twin stat but specification on ambient temps states 10 degrees c as minimum. Beko are the only brand I have found so far (UK) specifiying ambient operating temps down to -15 degrees c and may of those seem to be single stat!
At the moment I am still bit skeptical and not a little confused as to wether this is wholly an ambient temperature rating issue or a twin/single thermostat issue, or a bit of both!
I am really wishing that someone could help clear that up for me. But nothing I read anywhere is giving a clear definitive guide on this.
1 reply Don't know if anyone has mentioned this here because there it just too much to read most of it saying exactly the same thing but... John Lewis salesman explained to me that in addition to the thermostat issue (one or two) since the gases used in the compressor have been changed to comply with new regulations to prevent global warming on disposal, the gases that are now used are better for the environment but are not capable of working at lower temperatures. This maybe why, if you are old enough, this whole concept of a fridge freezer not working in colder weather is a relatively new one. It was a new one on me!!
Don’t know if anyone has mentioned this here because there it just too much to read most of it saying exactly the same thing but…
John Lewis salesman explained to me that in addition to the thermostat issue (one or two) since the gases used in the compressor have been changed to comply with new regulations to prevent global warming on disposal, the gases that are now used are better for the environment but are not capable of working at lower temperatures. This maybe why, if you are old enough, this whole concept of a fridge freezer not working in colder weather is a relatively new one. It was a new one on me!!
1 reply Today in total exasperation ran through these comments in complete disbelief, my daughter received a cream Next fridge freezer as a wedding present January 5th 2012, could not afford Smeg or whatever. I know this is all related to garages outhouses etc but when an engineer(very moody and offish) was eventually tracked down, 7 days, due to defrosted freezer via customer services, via department after department (another story on its own) his diagnosis was 'need to keep the kitchen temperature minimum 16C'! After calling back customer services to complain, this is impossible, how can this be? 'No Sir I have referred to technical information this fridge freezer needs to be in a room minimum of 16C (which makes it a class N). We need to monitor the temperature, turn the heating up! Well its been monitored during the time waiting for the engineer to come and it starts to freeze and then thaws. We're sure by reading all these threads he's going to be right what choice do we have turn the heating up, never for the convenience of the F/F how crazy is this? Now this F/F is in a large kitchen completely refurbished, new double glazed windows, centrally heated in the usual manor with thermostat on time clock set for am and pm.This no garage! With both occupants at work in the day heating is off. The minimum night time outdoor temperature we have had in this part of the country so far in the last few weeks has been 4C. The daytime is higher. The temperature in the kitchen has been comfortable and would of been sufficient without this fridge freezer needing extra comforts. They're well and truly covering themselves its our fault if the temperature is not in the right range. The thought of asking for refund, compensation for spoilt food etc? Looks like we have been lumbered with a very expensive piece of scrap. They should not be allowed to get away with this.
Today in total exasperation ran through these comments in complete disbelief, my daughter received a cream Next fridge freezer as a wedding present January 5th 2012, could not afford Smeg or whatever. I know this is all related to garages outhouses etc but when an engineer(very moody and offish) was eventually tracked down, 7 days, due to defrosted freezer via customer services, via department after department (another story on its own) his diagnosis was ‘need to keep the kitchen temperature minimum 16C’!
After calling back customer services to complain, this is impossible, how can this be? ‘No Sir I have referred to technical information this fridge freezer needs to be in a room minimum of 16C (which makes it a class N). We need to monitor the temperature, turn the heating up!
Well its been monitored during the time waiting for the engineer to come and it starts to freeze and then thaws.
We’re sure by reading all these threads he’s going to be right what choice do we have turn the heating up, never for the convenience of the F/F how crazy is this?
Now this F/F is in a large kitchen completely refurbished, new double glazed windows, centrally heated in the usual manor with thermostat on time clock set for am and pm.This no garage! With both occupants at work in the day heating is off.
The minimum night time outdoor temperature we have had in this part of the country so far in the last few weeks has been 4C. The daytime is higher.
The temperature in the kitchen has been comfortable and would of been sufficient without this fridge freezer needing extra comforts.
They’re well and truly covering themselves its our fault if the temperature is not in the right range.
The thought of asking for refund, compensation for spoilt food etc?
Looks like we have been lumbered with a very expensive piece of scrap.
They should not be allowed to get away with this.
Likely replying to Romeo Sarra
Romeo, I completely agree with you and have covered this in previous comments. How can they sell a fridge freezer, which defrosts the freezer when the temperature of the kitchen gets below 16 C? In winter, many kitchens can easily drop below 16 degrees. I certainly don’t keep the heating on all night. Apart from the cost, we wouldn’t want the noise of the radiators and floorboards creaking as it heats up and cools down and the noise circulation pump running.
As you say this is not a garage, which is more of a grey area, this is in a kitchen. If your appliance is not working properly in your kitchen, specifically because you don’t keep your heating on 24/7 then I would say the appliance is not fit for purpose. Under the Sale of Goods Act it’s the retailer who is responsible and not the manufacturer so don’t waste your time on them.
Beko make fridge freezers that they claim will work down to well below 0 degrees and I’m sure there are other fridge freezers which have separate thermostats for the fridge and the freezer so this doesn’t happen.
Retailers need to find out which of their fridge freezers have this stupid design flaw, which causes the freezer to stop maintaining temperature when the fridge thermostat has switched off, and stop selling them or advise customers about this ridiculous anomaly. A minimum temperature of 16 degrees or else the freezer starts to defrost should not be acceptable in a country that has periodic very cold weather. It may well be that a very well insulated house may not get too cold during the night but clearly there are going to be plenty of houses (especially old or rural ones) where temperatures do get pretty cold during the night in cold winters so people should be advised not to buy one of these appliances.
I’ve just checked my own house. I have a detached house with modern loft insulation and cavity wall insulation. The temperature outside is currently 9 degrees C and the temperature in our hallway is 17.5 C and we have the heating on (admittedly only low). Therefore it’s likely that during the night in winter the temperature in my kitchen would easily fall below 16 C. This means any fridge freezer that would have a problem with that is clearly not fit for purpose!
1 reply Washerhelp says, January 20, 2012 at 1:21 pm > go away for a full month each Christmas and do not leave their heating on. That's risky - the water pipes and the loos might freeze up. Most central heating systems have a "frost" setting, which should also take care of the fridge. Again, it is only the thermostat (whatever) that needs to be kept warm, in order to keep the fridge working. Perhaps they should run down their deep-freeze before going on holiday ?
Washerhelp says, January 20, 2012 at 1:21 pm
> go away for a full month each Christmas and do not leave their heating on.
That’s risky – the water pipes and the loos might freeze up. Most central heating systems have a “frost” setting, which should also take care of the fridge.
Again, it is only the thermostat (whatever) that needs to be kept warm, in order to keep the fridge working.
Perhaps they should run down their deep-freeze before going on holiday ?
Likely replying to Robin Clay
Hi Robin: I’d normally agree with your caveat but people are completely unaware of this design problem until they’ve already bought the appliance.
Re the heating system my in-laws don’t have an affected appliance but they should leave the heating on to maintain temperature of at least 7- 10 degrees in my opinion. There are probably still people without central heating though..
1 reply Steve Arnell wrote, #85. December 21st, 2010, at 11:50 AM. > My thoughts on a fix? > Don't add light bulbs inside the appliance > (seems silly to ADD heat to a device designed to extract it > although I can see how it kind of works) Hmmm.... Well done, Steve ! For I'm not sure *I* understand his theory. ;-) I suggested (#56. February 16th, 2010, at 6:29 PM. above) putting a light bulb *outside*, near the "ambient temperature" sensor / cooling coil (which workes for me).
Steve Arnell wrote, #85. December 21st, 2010, at 11:50 AM.
> My thoughts on a fix?
> Don’t add light bulbs inside the appliance
> (seems silly to ADD heat to a device designed to extract it
> although I can see how it kind of works)
Hmmm…. Well done, Steve ! For I’m not sure *I* understand his theory. ;-)
I suggested (#56. February 16th, 2010, at 6:29 PM. above) putting a light bulb *outside*, near the “ambient temperature” sensor / cooling coil (which workes for me).
Likely replying to Robin Clay
@Robin Clay…
Putting a light bulb near the ambient sensor? Domestic refrigerators don’t have an ambient sensor. The only thermo sensors on domestic appliances are inside the refrigerator to control the compressor switching on and off and connected to the compressor, which cuts the compressor off if it gets too hot.
@Paul… Yes it sounds like your problem is the low ambient temperatures, but it might be worth checking the climate rating of your refrigerator.
It seems to me that by reading this thread, no one seems to know exactly how a fridgefreezer works. I will try my best to explain it in the most simple terms, if at any point you don’t understand what I’ve said please post and I’ll try to explain it in better English. Being a refrigeration and air conditioning technician I didn’t really listen in my english classes.
So basically, there is a thermostat in the fridge part of your fridge freezer, because this is what you control most put of the two, when that is set to a certain temp, the refrigeration cycle will try to keep the *fridge* part at that temperature. So when the fridge rises slightly in temp, the compressor will start, pumping refrigerant through the condenser and to the evaporator in the *freezer* first, the refrigerant picks up heat from the freezer and moves to the *fridge* evaporator. The refrigerant is warmer in the fridge evaporator because it is not trying to get the fridge to the same low temps as the freezer. From the *fridge* evaporator it then goes back to the compressor and the cycle starts again. Once the *fridge* is down to temperature the compressor will cut off and stop cooling both the fridge and the freezer.
The reason you are having problems with your fridge freezer in the garage is because when the ambient temperatures drop below freezing, the *fridge* temperature will stay low as well, therefore the compressor will not start. However, this means that the freezer does not get any cooling either, hence why your freezers are defrosting.
There is nothing wrong with your fridge freezer if it does this, apart from the fact that the food in your freezer won’t be frozen, this is just what happens to fridge freezers in sub zero temperatures.
My advice is, if you are going to put a fridge freezer in your garage, get one that has designed working ambient temperatures that the fridge freezer will be working in, in your garage.
Any questions or comments please post
WillsRef.
1 reply Here's a summary of the situation as I see it - Comet, and all the major retailers are very much aware of this problem because all their service departments constantly get called out to these affected fridge freezers installed in garages or other cold places, which fail during cold weather, and have done for years. They tell customers their problem isn't covered by their guarantee and there's nothing they can do. They presumably even charge plenty of them for the privilege. However, I don't believe any of them would deliberately sell these appliances to their customers knowing they wont work as that would just be stupid. I believe the reason the sales person rarely if ever ask a customer where they intend to put the fridge freezer with a mind to advising them that certain a fridge freezers will only work in a warm kitchen is because the retail side doesn't seem to have been told by the service side. The reason I suspect the service side (or head offices) haven't advised all their sales staff about this issue, and instructed their sales staff to make sure people aren't sold inappropriate fridge freezers when they intend to place it in a garage or other cold environment is because the companies are NOT suffering financially with the status quo and could even be profiting on the service side. I believe the retailers are negligent in selling these appliances to thousands of customers for many years when at least part of their company is very much aware of the problem. I think if you buy a fridge freezer that doesn't work properly when installed in a garage or other cool place you have no responsibility for the error and could never have known that there is a specific type of fridge freezer design that (to save money) only has one sensor or stat controlling two compartments doing totally different jobs, which means it will stop working if the temperature drops low enough to turn off the fridge stat. Clearly the sales person was equally unaware of the problem or did not inform, which proves that customers cannot be held responsible for this. If they say you should have known you should say why - when your own staff don't even know? But if they then say ah, but if we didn't know how is it our fault you say your company does know and has done for years. If they haven't told you they are responsible for the continuation of this issue. Many people have had fridge freezers installed in these places for years and were unaffected by this issue because most fridge freezers have separate sensors to control temperatures in the fridge and freezer. Whether you can successfully claim compensation, or a refund is down to how all this is interpreted by a small claims court or trading standards and other consumer groups. Test cases needed
Here’s a summary of the situation as I see it –
Comet, and all the major retailers are very much aware of this problem because all their service departments constantly get called out to these affected fridge freezers installed in garages or other cold places, which fail during cold weather, and have done for years. They tell customers their problem isn’t covered by their guarantee and there’s nothing they can do. They presumably even charge plenty of them for the privilege.
However, I don’t believe any of them would deliberately sell these appliances to their customers knowing they wont work as that would just be stupid.
I believe the reason the sales person rarely if ever ask a customer where they intend to put the fridge freezer with a mind to advising them that certain a fridge freezers will only work in a warm kitchen is because the retail side doesn’t seem to have been told by the service side.
The reason I suspect the service side (or head offices) haven’t advised all their sales staff about this issue, and instructed their sales staff to make sure people aren’t sold inappropriate fridge freezers when they intend to place it in a garage or other cold environment is because the companies are NOT suffering financially with the status quo and could even be profiting on the service side.
I believe the retailers are negligent in selling these appliances to thousands of customers for many years when at least part of their company is very much aware of the problem.
I think if you buy a fridge freezer that doesn’t work properly when installed in a garage or other cool place you have no responsibility for the error and could never have known that there is a specific type of fridge freezer design that (to save money) only has one sensor or stat controlling two compartments doing totally different jobs, which means it will stop working if the temperature drops low enough to turn off the fridge stat. Clearly the sales person was equally unaware of the problem or did not inform, which proves that customers cannot be held responsible for this. If they say you should have known you should say why – when your own staff don’t even know? But if they then say ah, but if we didn’t know how is it our fault you say your company does know and has done for years. If they haven’t told you they are responsible for the continuation of this issue. Many people have had fridge freezers installed in these places for years and were unaffected by this issue because most fridge freezers have separate sensors to control temperatures in the fridge and freezer.
Whether you can successfully claim compensation, or a refund is down to how all this is interpreted by a small claims court or trading standards and other consumer groups.
Test cases needed
Likely replying to Washerhelp
@washerhelp – I’ve been away from this thread for a long time – sorry. In the meantime I’ve built two contraptions to solve the problem with my two fridge-freezer combos in the cold. So far, they work as expected, down to -14deg ambient.
To your question:
Alfie, when you say, “Some fridge/freezers don’t bother measuring the temperature inside” – can you elaborate? I can’t imagine it being possible to keep food at specific and critical temperatures without measuring the temperature of the compartments.
I’m working on an explanation as simple as possible… stay tuned.
@Steve Arnell – “…it arrives at the expansion valve too cold. This means the expansion won’t work properly” Good thinking, but just one thing: if that were the case, in low ambient temperatures the compressor would keep running and panting. Instead, it doesn’t. Which tells us it’s the thermostat directing it to shut off.
1 reply Thanks for the advice, this site is a great resource. We are still in discussion with our loss adjuster so are still no nearer to resolving our problem. But in researching a solution it seems that 2009 models of Beko fridge freezers work in garages. We have spoken to customer services at Beko who assure us that all their 2009 models can cope with ambient temperatures down to -15c. I'm wondering how they can do it when other manufacturers can't. Can anyone back this up from experience?
Thanks for the advice, this site is a great resource. We are still in discussion with our loss adjuster so are still no nearer to resolving our problem. But in researching a solution it seems that 2009 models of Beko fridge freezers work in garages. We have spoken to customer services at Beko who assure us that all their 2009 models can cope with ambient temperatures down to -15c. I’m wondering how they can do it when other manufacturers can’t. Can anyone back this up from experience?
Likely replying to Eileen
@Eileen
best wishes with the loss adjuster – yes it’s easy, I’m guessing that the manufacturers are worried about the energy rating, higher manufacturing costs, or they’re just being the usual sleazebags.
Try Beko customer service to get you a fridge/freezer on trial for 30days, no upfront payment, or else else you are going to splatter their cowardice all over the ‘net? :)
1 reply We have a fridge / freezer in the garage. Last year I found it wasn't working, and discovered that this was because the temp had dropped below freezing. So I fitted a light bulb at the back at the bottom, to provide gentle heat, enough (I hoped) to prevent the problem. It seemed to. Then the bulb blew. I've used five of them so far this winter ! But I *think* this is the solution - you don't need a fan heater to heat the entire room, just a small amount of heat below the "works". I guess perhaps even a 5 or 10W fridge bulb might do - I have used 100W, 60W and 40W, depending on what I have spare ! Whaddya think ?
We have a fridge / freezer in the garage. Last year I found it wasn’t working, and discovered that this was because the temp had dropped below freezing. So I fitted a light bulb at the back at the bottom, to provide gentle heat, enough (I hoped) to prevent the problem. It seemed to. Then the bulb blew. I’ve used five of them so far this winter !
But I *think* this is the solution – you don’t need a fan heater to heat the entire room, just a small amount of heat below the “works”. I guess perhaps even a 5 or 10W fridge bulb might do – I have used 100W, 60W and 40W, depending on what I have spare !
Whaddya think ?
Likely replying to Robin Clay
@Robin Clay
I believe you nailed it. Some fridge/freezers don’t bother measuring the temperature inside (given the cost constraints, technically potentially troublesome) but extrapolate from a measurement of ambient temperature relying on the temp gradient from outside to inside. Look for a 2-3 inch metal bulb. That’s what you want to heat by a bunch of degrees.
Myself I’m working on a contraption which should work with all types of fridge/freezers.
To the blown light bulbs, try a higher voltage rated bulb. If you live in the US, get a 220V/40W incandescent bulb. It should last forever while only consuming ~20W.
Or, an automotive 5-10W bulb in close contact, powered by a wall-wart.
1 reply Eileen: My separate fridge and freezer appear to work OK in our garage and they've been there for over 2 years. When it gets cold enough the fridge stops running but that's no problem because it's cold. The freezer seems to work OK, with no defrost alarms showing. If Beko say it will work down to -16 C then you'd be forgiven for assuming that as long as it doesn't get that cold in your garage it should work OK. I think it's probably fair to say they shouldn't ideally be in garages but for many people there's little choice. There's no room for a fridge-freezer or a separate freezer in my kitchen. If your old style fridge freezer was unaffected by this issue but the replacements are, then why not try to claim the insurance company haven't supplied you with an appropriate replacement?
Eileen: My separate fridge and freezer appear to work OK in our garage and they’ve been there for over 2 years. When it gets cold enough the fridge stops running but that’s no problem because it’s cold. The freezer seems to work OK, with no defrost alarms showing.
If Beko say it will work down to -16 C then you’d be forgiven for assuming that as long as it doesn’t get that cold in your garage it should work OK. I think it’s probably fair to say they shouldn’t ideally be in garages but for many people there’s little choice. There’s no room for a fridge-freezer or a separate freezer in my kitchen.
If your old style fridge freezer was unaffected by this issue but the replacements are, then why not try to claim the insurance company haven’t supplied you with an appropriate replacement?
Likely replying to Washerhelp
@washerhelp
of course, a combo with two compressors with separate thermostats would solve the problem. Come to think of it that’s almost like having one freezer plus one fridge, though. Maybe someday they will actually be able to convince us that after all, buying that combo wasn’t such a great idea, and that what we REALLY need is two more boxes, sure they’re a bit more expensive but don’t you hate it when your combo stops working and you have to trash your valuable food? huh?
— When will they stop taking us for stupid? As soon as we stop being stupid.
1 reply Hi, I am informed by various company sellers/technical adviser that freezer will not work properly in room where temperature is below the temperature declared for climatic class. The most adequate version for Europe is class SN that range of work is between 10 and 32 C. (Other classes N, T or ST) For other temperature bellow and higher thermostat will keep off the compressor and food will defrosted
Hi, I am informed by various company sellers/technical adviser that freezer will not work properly in room where temperature is below the temperature declared for climatic class. The most adequate version for Europe is class SN that range of work is between 10 and 32 C. (Other classes N, T or ST) For other temperature bellow and higher thermostat will keep off the compressor and food will defrosted
Likely replying to Jan
Hello Jan. Only if a fridge freezer has just the one thermostat inside the fridge. If a fridge freezer has a separate thermostat or sensor controlling the freezer compartment then it shouldn’t have a problem running even if the temperature drops below freezing because the freezer is set to cool down to -18 degrees C. The outside temperature would surely have to drop to -20 before it caused a freezer thermostat to switch off and even then it wouldn’t start to defrost food.
It may be that other problems may arise if the temperature drops too much below those quoted in the climate class, but regarding this particular issue if temperatures drop too low, only a fridge thermostat should switch off, which isn’t such a problem because the temperature inside the fridge compartment will be cold enough to protect food (which is why the stat switched off). The only issue I can think of is milk could freeze if it got extremely cold but nothing would get too warm.
I do link to my article describing climate class on this article. The problem is that most consumers just don’t know about climate class so they are unaware you can have these problems – especially as it only affects a specific design which relies on a single thermostat control in the fridge compartment.
The big questions are, who’s fault is it if you go to a retailer, buy a fridge-freezer with this (limitation) and find it won’t work in winter if you need it in the garage?
Also, in who’s interest is it that potentially thousands of consumers keep buying these appliances which turn out to be not fit for the purpose they were purchased for? I can’t imagine any retailer being glad about it, or any manufacturer – or any customer for sure.
So who can stop this problem? Manufacturers could stop designing fridge freezers with only one stat in the fridge, or retailers could make sure they understand which appliances are affected and make sure they don’t sell them to anyone needing to put one in an out building or garage.
1 reply Very interesting and helpful information. I bought a frigidaire fridge freezer on 22nd December from Curry's. It was delivered and placed in our garage by the delivery person and I was told not to plus it in until 6 hours later - which we did. Since then I have had frozen food in the fridge because we have to turn it to the maximum 7 in order to get the freezer to freeze our food (although you could never defrost anything you take out of it very quickly - it's like lead! If we turn it to six the ice cream turns into milk shake! We had a fridge freezer in there for years and never had a problem but unfortunately it appears from reading all of these comments that this is a common problem. Not something that we were told though! Have rang for a service engineer to come but as soon as I mentioned that it was in a garage they told me that they would send someone but it was unlikely it was a faulty thermostat and very likely to be because it was in garage. Looks like we are not going to be very lucky sorting this one out. £200 down the drain!
Very interesting and helpful information. I bought a frigidaire fridge freezer on 22nd December from Curry’s. It was delivered and placed in our garage by the delivery person and I was told not to plus it in until 6 hours later – which we did. Since then I have had frozen food in the fridge because we have to turn it to the maximum 7 in order to get the freezer to freeze our food (although you could never defrost anything you take out of it very quickly – it’s like lead! If we turn it to six the ice cream turns into milk shake!
We had a fridge freezer in there for years and never had a problem but unfortunately it appears from reading all of these comments that this is a common problem. Not something that we were told though! Have rang for a service engineer to come but as soon as I mentioned that it was in a garage they told me that they would send someone but it was unlikely it was a faulty thermostat and very likely to be because it was in garage. Looks like we are not going to be very lucky sorting this one out.
£200 down the drain!
Likely replying to Nikki Halls
Hello Nikki. It’s only £200 down the drain if you accept it’s your fault. I’d like to know on what basis retailers or manufacturers would claim the fault and responsibility is purely with the customers who en mass just don’t know about this issue.
As I stated before, as long as retailers are shielded from the consequences of selling these appliances to people they will keep selling them to lots of unsuspecting customers.
1 reply I am interested to note how the problem of keeping a freezer in the garage has prompted so many responses. You will see from my earlier correspondence that I had to scrap a two-year old Proline chest freezer and buy another just before Christmas. The new one (Norfrost - aptly named 'The New Ice Age') seems to be working fine. It has quite a lot of frost in the interior and a lot of condensation on the exterior. I hope this isn't a bad sign!. Maybe DerekQ's solution to wrap the freezer in insulation (I would suggest polystyrene) may be the way forwrad. Anyone want to talk about Clock Radios for the bedside table? I'm on my fourth in only a few weeks. They just don't seem to be able to get it right!
I am interested to note how the problem of keeping a freezer in the garage has prompted so many responses. You will see from my earlier correspondence that I had to scrap a two-year old Proline chest freezer and buy another just before Christmas. The new one (Norfrost – aptly named ‘The New Ice Age’) seems to be working fine. It has quite a lot of frost in the interior and a lot of condensation on the exterior. I hope this isn’t a bad sign!. Maybe DerekQ’s solution to wrap the freezer in insulation (I would suggest polystyrene) may be the way forwrad.
Anyone want to talk about Clock Radios for the bedside table? I’m on my fourth in only a few weeks. They just don’t seem to be able to get it right!
Likely replying to Dave Hutton
Hello Dave: A separate freezer can’t be affected by this issue at all, only certain fridge-freezers. Maybe it just went faulty. As the temperature a freezer tries to maintain is usually -18 I can’t imagine your garage getting so cold as to turn the stat off unless the temperature dropped to around -20 and even then that wouldn’t cause defrosting because it’s colder than you require.
I can’t say for certain that there would be no issues running a separate freezer in a garage due to the potential damp conditions but they should be separate issues. They should still have a climate rating showing they are designed to run at temperatures no lower than (whatever the rating says) but I can’t see how they could defrost when it gets cold.
1 reply I only wish I found this site a few weeks ago. We have had the same problem and we only bought the fridge freezer on 23/12/09. It is less that 3 weeks old and tried the mis selling line but got nowhere. I can't get down the CAB until February but I am not expecting any joy. Like many people we were replacing a freezer which broke down. We now have a fridge freezer that can be used as a cupboard for nearly half the year! We are annoyed but there seems to be nothing that can be done.
I only wish I found this site a few weeks ago. We have had the same problem and we only bought the fridge freezer on 23/12/09. It is less that 3 weeks old and tried the mis selling line but got nowhere. I can’t get down the CAB until February but I am not expecting any joy. Like many people we were replacing a freezer which broke down. We now have a fridge freezer that can be used as a cupboard for nearly half the year! We are annoyed but there seems to be nothing that can be done.
Likely replying to Andy
Hello Andy: there isn’t anything in this article or comments saying nothing can be done, only that the chances are you’ll meet resistance if you try to claim it’s not fit for purpose but that doesn’t mean they are right. Trying to claim it’s a design fault is unlikely to succeed because manufacturers will say they are not designed to run in a garage, but as most retailers know (or should know) that people do put them in garages, and that people don’t know they can’t, they surely have a duty of care to advise customers to buy a different fridge freezer unaffected by the issue if they plan to run it in a garage.
If the sales person didn’t ask you if you were going to install it in a garage or advise you it must only be sited in a kitchen then I believe they are mis-selling this type of fridge-freezer if only out of ignorance. Whilst ever the thousands of people this affects just accept it they will continue.
The simple fact is that many people put these appliances in a garage. All the big retailers know this very well because their engineers get called out all the time in winter for this problem. If the service departments haven’t told the retail departments to stop selling these affected appliances to customers wishing to site them in a garage they are being negligent in my opinion.
Anyone with common sense can see that this is a proper issue affecting many people, and the retailers need to stop selling this type of fridge freezer to people wanting to use them in garages so they need to ask all potential customers where they plan to put the appliance. They never will until they start getting enough people refusing to accept it’s their fault and/or taking them to the small claims court.
1 reply To all of those people who have commented above on this subject - well done! This site/topic thread of all those I have seen on the subject has been the most comprehensively written, technically correct and eloquent one made. As a professional Chartered Mechanical Engineer I'm really pleased to see some sensible, articulate conversation and advice given here. Essentially it's the designers/manufacturers at fault here. In their perpetual pursuit of profit, saving a few pounds by omitting a second thermostat gives rise to all those issues that have been discussed. Bring back those robust designs of yester-year when every white appliance seemed to last for a minimum of ten years without fault! I too have the same problem with our second fridge/freezer combo located in the garage. However, I've always assumed that as our house boiler is located in there that it would have been above the minimum ambient temperature required to operate. Sadly in this recent cold snap this has proven not to be so - all frozen items are now soft. I will re-locate the whole unit to a warmer environment and see if that works (I have high hopes that it should). I would recommend this course of action to all others who have suffered the same fate. Thanks for all your contributions folks, keep up the good work! Mike
To all of those people who have commented above on this subject – well done!
This site/topic thread of all those I have seen on the subject has been the most comprehensively written, technically correct and eloquent one made. As a professional Chartered Mechanical Engineer I’m really pleased to see some sensible, articulate conversation and advice given here. Essentially it’s the designers/manufacturers at fault here. In their perpetual pursuit of profit, saving a few pounds by omitting a second thermostat gives rise to all those issues that have been discussed. Bring back those robust designs of yester-year when every white appliance seemed to last for a minimum of ten years without fault!
I too have the same problem with our second fridge/freezer combo located in the garage. However, I’ve always assumed that as our house boiler is located in there that it would have been above the minimum ambient temperature required to operate. Sadly in this recent cold snap this has proven not to be so – all frozen items are now soft.
I will re-locate the whole unit to a warmer environment and see if that works (I have high hopes that it should). I would recommend this course of action to all others who have suffered the same fate.
Thanks for all your contributions folks, keep up the good work!
Mike
1 reply I have just read all your very interesting comments on fridge/freezers I also have the same problem in my garage, can you recommend a make which will work in extra cold conditions. regards T. Loughlin
I have just read all your very interesting comments on fridge/freezers
I also have the same problem in my garage, can you recommend a make which will work in extra cold conditions. regards T. Loughlin
Likely replying to Terry Loughlin
Thanks Terry. As far as I’m aware the problem only affects combined fridge-freezers where the freezer and fridge share a single compressor, which is turned on and off by only one thermostat sited inside the fridge compartment.
Therefore if you get a separate fridge and freezer the problem shouldn’t be too relevant, or if you buy a combined fridge-freezer with separate thermostats controlling the fridge and the freezer. Then if the temperature drops low enough to switch off the thermostat in the fridge section and stays that low then the freezer section can still function independently using its own thermostat.
Other than that, all fridges and freezers have a specific climate class rating which states the highest and lowest temperature the appliance is designed to run within.
As the lowest temperature a fridge or freezer is guaranteed to work properly in is only 10 degrees Centigrade (if it has climate class SN) you can imagine that most garages will drop quite a bit below that in winter. Some climate classes say only 16 degrees. Clearly they are designed to be used inside a kitchen.
With a fridge, when the temperature drops below freezing it should stop working – but we want that don’t we? If the temperature inside becomes lower than what the thermostat is set to then the fridge clearly doesn’t need to be running.
The downside here is that it’s possible for the fridge to get much colder than intended inside as we only want a fridge to keep things cold. If the temperature inside dropped below freezing then things could get much colder. Whether this is a problem or not I don’t really know but imagine it’s not a major problem. However, as fridges have insulation inside walls the temperature inside the fridge should always be a bit warmer than in the garage itself when the ambient temperature is very cold.
Conversely though, in summer, if the garage gets very hot because it’s not being used and there are no windows open and maybe a window magnifies the sun’s rays then the fridge is likely to work extra hard putting strain on it and using more energy.
1 reply Thanks for the feedback Nutella: Consumer Direct are there to advise us. I'm not sure they take up many specific cases unless they are test cases or big ones. They wouldn't have advised you to write to head office if they didn't think you had a case. I understand your thoughts about taking on a large retailer without more direct help. That's probably how most people feel and is why most people give up. BBC Watchdog may help though they are likely to be interested only if it makes good TV, is a safety issue or affects a lot of people.
Thanks for the feedback Nutella: Consumer Direct are there to advise us. I’m not sure they take up many specific cases unless they are test cases or big ones. They wouldn’t have advised you to write to head office if they didn’t think you had a case.
I understand your thoughts about taking on a large retailer without more direct help. That’s probably how most people feel and is why most people give up. BBC Watchdog may help though they are likely to be interested only if it makes good TV, is a safety issue or affects a lot of people.
Likely replying to Washerhelp
Hello Washerhelp, Consumer Direct have advised me to put my complaint to Comet Head Office in writing but don’t seem overly concerned about this issue, and certainly didn’t offer to take it up with the Retailer on my behalf. Rather than continuing to bang my head against the brick wall that is Comet Customer Service, I’ve decided to put this down to life’s interesting learning curve and just take the Climate Class N fridge to the recycling centre.
Climate Class SN is for ambient temperatures down to 10 Deg C but, back to my initial question, who makes a larder fridge appropriately rated for my cold kitchen, down to 6 Deg C? I haven’t been able to find any larder fridges rated for use below 10 Deg C!?
0 replies Unfortunately a shed is a bad place to keep a fridge or fridge freezer. In winter or summer it will see extremes of temperature causing different problems. The answer depends on whether this should be common knowledge, or obvious or not. Many people buy refrigeration appliances to put in a garage, which can cause problems in winter as discussed at length in this article and comments. I believe sales staff should always ask where one is going to be sited because they are very much aware of this problem. So if it were in a garage I would be more inclined to fight the charge but to be honest I think most people would wonder if a hut is suitable, if only because it's forced to get extremely hot in summer. I've heard of, and even visited many cases of fridge freezers failing inside garages and never known anyone be charged for it so I suspect they may be trying to charge you because they think it should be more obvious it's not a suitable place for one. You would need to seek consumer advice from Citizens Advice to see what they think but I don;t think retailers have any legal requirements to enquire how people are going to use products they sell. It's merely a moral and practical requirement.
Unfortunately a shed is a bad place to keep a fridge or fridge freezer. In winter or summer it will see extremes of temperature causing different problems. The answer depends on whether this should be common knowledge, or obvious or not. Many people buy refrigeration appliances to put in a garage, which can cause problems in winter as discussed at length in this article and comments.
I believe sales staff should always ask where one is going to be sited because they are very much aware of this problem. So if it were in a garage I would be more inclined to fight the charge but to be honest I think most people would wonder if a hut is suitable, if only because it’s forced to get extremely hot in summer.
I’ve heard of, and even visited many cases of fridge freezers failing inside garages and never known anyone be charged for it so I suspect they may be trying to charge you because they think it should be more obvious it’s not a suitable place for one. You would need to seek consumer advice from Citizens Advice to see what they think but I don;t think retailers have any legal requirements to enquire how people are going to use products they sell. It’s merely a moral and practical requirement.
0 replies i bought a hotpoint fridge /freezer july 2012 five moths later it stopped working a engineer came and it was too cold so it is unfit for purpose i was not told it could not be put into shed i have just recieved a solitors letter saying i have to pay a 49.99 call out charge can i do anything about it i will never ever buy anything from hotpoint again
i bought a hotpoint fridge /freezer july 2012 five moths later it stopped working a engineer came and it was too cold so it is unfit for purpose i was not told it could not be put into shed i have just recieved a solitors letter saying i have to pay a 49.99 call out charge can i do anything about it i will never ever buy anything from hotpoint again
0 replies Many thanks for your advice Andy
Many thanks for your advice Andy
0 replies Helo Stace. People at various manufacturers do read my sites, whether they ever take any notice of anything is another matter though :) Your comment highlights how poor product advice is at some of the big retailers. I would go to a John Lewis store if possible and ask them. I would suggest you look at a good quality fridge-freezer. Proline and Beko are both budget appliances and made to sell cheap. If you have a good quality one with good insulation, and 2 stats to separately control the fridge and the freezer you may not have any problems.
Helo Stace. People at various manufacturers do read my sites, whether they ever take any notice of anything is another matter though :) Your comment highlights how poor product advice is at some of the big retailers. I would go to a John Lewis store if possible and ask them. I would suggest you look at a good quality fridge-freezer. Proline and Beko are both budget appliances and made to sell cheap. If you have a good quality one with good insulation, and 2 stats to separately control the fridge and the freezer you may not have any problems.
0 replies I'm looking for a new fridge freezer (FF) now as my current proline (6 years old) is on the blink. I never knew about climate class until looking this time round for a new FF. Current one is a N class. As my property is single glazed in the winter months the room can dropped to about 12oc. No way am i spending more to have a thermostate heater in here just for the FF!. Its difficult looking out for a SN class (down to 10oC) and most seem to be N or ST class. As it happens I was in Currys and the young lady assistant didn't know what climate class was although she was in the FF section. Also annoying if you go into the stores they dont have the booklet so you cannot read the specifications and of course you cannot see the rating plate as its no doubt at the back of the FF where you cannot access it. I originally disgarded looking at BEKO due to the fire safety of their older FF but maybe there are ok now?? who knows. Other option if I need up buying a N class and do find out I have issues this coming winter I know that someone on the thread suggested putting on roof insulation on the sides - wonder if this would help? would it? ... but there there is the issue are ensuring that there is space around the FF for circulation as per the usual manual. Looking at the FF on the internet it is so annoying when finding out its another N class and not SN. Also though... the BUSH FF via Argos they state they go down to 10oC but when reading a Q&A on the actual model - a lady asked if she could put it in her conservatory - the response from Argos was....sorry that was a mistake and that the FF Ambient temp is 16oc so you cannot even rely on the full specifications listed on the internet. .. but any comments re the roof insulation covering on the side of the FF (fridge part only) - or is that just stupid and wouldn't work. Shame no manufacturers read this website and in particular this thread.
I’m looking for a new fridge freezer (FF) now as my current proline (6 years old) is on the blink. I never knew about climate class until looking this time round for a new FF. Current one is a N class. As my property is single glazed in the winter months the room can dropped to about 12oc. No way am i spending more to have a thermostate heater in here just for the FF!. Its difficult looking out for a SN class (down to 10oC) and most seem to be N or ST class. As it happens I was in Currys and the young lady assistant didn’t know what climate class was although she was in the FF section. Also annoying if you go into the stores they dont have the booklet so you cannot read the specifications and of course you cannot see the rating plate as its no doubt at the back of the FF where you cannot access it. I originally disgarded looking at BEKO due to the fire safety of their older FF but maybe there are ok now?? who knows. Other option if I need up buying a N class and do find out I have issues this coming winter I know that someone on the thread suggested putting on roof insulation on the sides – wonder if this would help? would it? … but there there is the issue are ensuring that there is space around the FF for circulation as per the usual manual.
Looking at the FF on the internet it is so annoying when finding out its another N class and not SN. Also though… the BUSH FF via Argos they state they go down to 10oC but when reading a Q&A on the actual model – a lady asked if she could put it in her conservatory – the response from Argos was….sorry that was a mistake and that the FF Ambient temp is 16oc so you cannot even rely on the full specifications listed on the internet.
.. but any comments re the roof insulation covering on the side of the FF (fridge part only) – or is that just stupid and wouldn’t work.
Shame no manufacturers read this website and in particular this thread.
0 replies Ronnie: Curry's should be making proper efforts to make sure they don't sell these appliances to anyone who is wanting to place it in an unsuitable environment. Why would they wilfully sell an appliance they know will fail unless they simply don't care?
Ronnie: Curry’s should be making proper efforts to make sure they don’t sell these appliances to anyone who is wanting to place it in an unsuitable environment. Why would they wilfully sell an appliance they know will fail unless they simply don’t care?
0 replies I purchased a Curry's own make fridge freezer (Curry's ESS CE55CW12) in September last year and put it in my garage. During the first very cold spell of weather we had in the winter the freezer part of the appliance defrosted and I threw the contents away. A friend told me of the possible cause and I looked at this website. I paid a visit to the Curry's store and commented that I should have been advised that the appliance was not suitable for putting in a garage as it had only one thermostatic control. The salesperson told me that they do not stock any fridge freezers with dual control. Curry's are therefore lunlikely to advise potential customers of the hazards of putting a fridge freezer in a garage or their sales will drop drastically. I only wanted a freezer but decided to go for the fridge/freezer as sometimes extra fridge space is useful. I can use the whole appliance as a freezer now if I put the dial up to 6 (max) but if the temperature drops drastically again it may stop working again
I purchased a Curry’s own make fridge freezer (Curry’s ESS CE55CW12) in September last year and put it in my garage. During the first very cold spell of weather we had in the winter the freezer part of the appliance defrosted and I threw the contents away. A friend told me of the possible cause and I looked at this website. I paid a visit to the Curry’s store and commented that I should have been advised that the appliance was not suitable for putting in a garage as it had only one thermostatic control. The salesperson told me that they do not stock any fridge freezers with dual control. Curry’s are therefore lunlikely to advise potential customers of the hazards of putting a fridge freezer in a garage or their sales will drop drastically. I only wanted a freezer but decided to go for the fridge/freezer as sometimes extra fridge space is useful. I can use the whole appliance as a freezer now if I put the dial up to 6 (max) but if the temperature drops drastically again it may stop working again
0 replies That's right Eric, the new gasses can be explosive too. Seen cases of fridges blowing up and throwing the door across the kitchen. Ridiculous.
That’s right Eric, the new gasses can be explosive too. Seen cases of fridges blowing up and throwing the door across the kitchen. Ridiculous.
0 replies I was told that the refrigerant agent in old fridges and freezers is no longer acceptable under EU rules. It has been changed to a more easily recyclable liquid / gas. The old refrigerant was capable of operating down to a much lower temperature that the modern 'green' refrigerant. If you own an old fridge freezer HANG ON TO IT.
I was told that the refrigerant agent in old fridges and freezers is no longer acceptable under EU rules. It has been changed to a more easily recyclable liquid / gas. The old refrigerant was capable of operating down to a much lower temperature that the modern ‘green’ refrigerant. If you own an old fridge freezer HANG ON TO IT.
0 replies I would never buy a freezer or fridge freezer without a defrost warning Anonymous. Partially defrosted food can become dangerous if refrozen so I would expect all decent modern appliances would have one. Some sort of audible alarm, flashing warning or red light is needed to warn that the freezer's temperature has been compromised.
I would never buy a freezer or fridge freezer without a defrost warning Anonymous. Partially defrosted food can become dangerous if refrozen so I would expect all decent modern appliances would have one. Some sort of audible alarm, flashing warning or red light is needed to warn that the freezer’s temperature has been compromised.
0 replies Fine. If they dont work when it gets cold ok; but they really should have always been built with a device that warns that the contents have defrosted. Thats basic food safety and having respect for your customers lives and welfare.
Fine. If they dont work when it gets cold ok; but they really should have always been built with a device that warns that the contents have defrosted. Thats basic food safety and having respect for your customers lives and welfare.
0 replies Kevin I am now a little out of touch since I performed my investigations a couple of years back (though the posts are still here) and cannot remember the technical details. However, I can confirm that my 2 year old Beko fridge freezer, sitting in my garage where the temperature last night dropped to -1, right this minute is still functioning perfectly. The fridge and freezer sections are still at the temperature you would expect. I wonder if any other mnufacturers have causght up with Beko yet. Some of the posts here would suggest not.
Kevin
I am now a little out of touch since I performed my investigations a couple of years back (though the posts are still here) and cannot remember the technical details.
However, I can confirm that my 2 year old Beko fridge freezer, sitting in my garage where the temperature last night dropped to -1, right this minute is still functioning perfectly. The fridge and freezer sections are still at the temperature you would expect.
I wonder if any other mnufacturers have causght up with Beko yet. Some of the posts here would suggest not.
0 replies Yes the original article is specifically about the problems related to the freezer defrosting on a fridge freezer with only one stat when placed in a cold environment. I've never looked at BS/EN153
Yes the original article is specifically about the problems related to the freezer defrosting on a fridge freezer with only one stat when placed in a cold environment. I’ve never looked at BS/EN153
0 replies Currys website for a beko mdel states: "Unlike many single thermostat freezers, Beko's freezers can be stored in a garage, thanks to their Freezer Guard technology. This technology uses an electronic temperature control system to make sure the appliance continues to work even when the surrounding temperature is as cold as -15ºC." So maybe it is not a twin stat method....?
Currys website for a beko mdel states:
“Unlike many single thermostat freezers, Beko’s freezers can be stored in a garage, thanks to their Freezer Guard technology. This technology uses an electronic temperature control system to make sure the appliance continues to work even when the surrounding temperature is as cold as -15ºC.” So maybe it is not a twin stat method….?
0 replies Reply to David Penn Hi David From their website: Beko use an 'Electronic temperature control system ensuring the freezer carries on working even when ambient temperatures fall below -15 degrees C". Looking at the specification of products on their site that show this feature they still state "Minimum ambient temperature required for satisfactory operation - Freezer Only". https://www.beko.co.uk/frost-free-combi-fridge-freezer-cf5834ap-black-silver-white#features They must have to comply with same environmental laws on gases as all other manufacturers. Can you confirm then that the Beko 'Electronic temperature control system' is effectively a twin stat? They certainly do not state this on their website for any of the relevant models and I would have thought they would.
Reply to David Penn
Hi David
From their website: Beko use an ‘Electronic temperature control system ensuring the freezer carries on working even when ambient temperatures fall below -15 degrees C”. Looking at the specification of products on their site that show this feature they still state “Minimum ambient temperature required for satisfactory operation – Freezer Only”.
https://www.beko.co.uk/frost-free-combi-fridge-freezer-cf5834ap-black-silver-white#features
They must have to comply with same environmental laws on gases as all other manufacturers.
Can you confirm then that the Beko ‘Electronic temperature control system’ is effectively a twin stat? They certainly do not state this on their website for any of the relevant models and I would have thought they would.
0 replies You might be interested in the reply I got from Miele. I still doubt it is the original reason for the specification. Any decent product, especially the electronics, can cope with a small amount of condensation. ' Thank you for your recent email regarding Miele refrigeration. If the ambient air temperature drops below 10 degrees this can cause condensation. This can damage both exterior and interior of the appliance, so could mean that the electronics could be effected and cause the appliance not to function correctly. We hope this is of assistance to you, but should you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact us on 0845 330 2660. ' I can certainly understand why thousands of people with freezers in their garages have no problems.
You might be interested in the reply I got from Miele. I still doubt it is the original reason for the specification. Any decent product, especially the electronics, can cope with a small amount of condensation.
‘ Thank you for your recent email regarding Miele refrigeration.
If the ambient air temperature drops below 10 degrees this can cause condensation. This can damage both exterior and interior of the appliance, so could mean that the electronics could be effected and cause the appliance not to function correctly.
We hope this is of assistance to you, but should you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact us on 0845 330 2660. ‘
I can certainly understand why thousands of people with freezers in their garages have no problems.
0 replies Thanks for the quick reply. I thought that you were very clear that the problems related directly to fridge-freezers, where only one thermostat and control system operates both functions. I can understand why the low temperature limit defined by the climate class is relevant to that situation. But how can it be relevant to a single function unit like a fridge or a freezer? I can only conclude that the low temperature limit on a freezer is irrelevant, unless the ambient drops so low that the freezer motor or compressor stops working. That surely has to be much less than 10 deg C. Are you suggesting that the low temperature limit applies to different effects on a fridge-freezer rather than a freezer alone? Seems unlikely to me. What does BS/ EN153 say about it?
Thanks for the quick reply. I thought that you were very clear that the problems related directly to fridge-freezers, where only one thermostat and control system operates both functions. I can understand why the low temperature limit defined by the climate class is relevant to that situation. But how can it be relevant to a single function unit like a fridge or a freezer? I can only conclude that the low temperature limit on a freezer is irrelevant, unless the ambient drops so low that the freezer motor or compressor stops working. That surely has to be much less than 10 deg C. Are you suggesting that the low temperature limit applies to different effects on a fridge-freezer rather than a freezer alone? Seems unlikely to me. What does BS/ EN153 say about it?
0 replies Apologies. David has confirmed that twin stat beko works fine down to -15 degrees c. Thanks David. Beko here I come.
Apologies. David has confirmed that twin stat beko works fine down to -15 degrees c.
Thanks David. Beko here I come.
0 replies It's not the gas. It here in the UK Fridge Freezers just needs a dual thermostat. I have a Beko model which uses modern gas and works just fine down to -15C.
It’s not the gas. It here in the UK Fridge Freezers just needs a dual thermostat.
I have a Beko model which uses modern gas and works just fine down to -15C.
0 replies Does anyone know then what the gases are that are used int he Beko fridge/freezers that are claimed to work well below 0 degrees centigrade? and do they actually function as advertised?
Does anyone know then what the gases are that are used int he Beko fridge/freezers that are claimed to work well below 0 degrees centigrade? and do they actually function as advertised?
0 replies Best of luck Stu, not sure if you've read my comment earlier this year about me having to run a convector heater on at the back of the fridge freezer all the time during winter whilst it was in the garage ... augmented by a cardboard housing I built around the freezer ! .... if you do find the location of the sensor, I did read somewhere about a neat little workaround that involved positioning a small low voltage electric light bulb near the sensor end and the heat that was generated by the bulb when turned on was enough to keep the sensor 'fooled' and the freezer running ok. The sensor is normally the free end of the small silver coloured soft copper capillary tube that is connected, during manufacture, to the thermostat switch i.e control switch normally found in the fridge. Hope this helps - and if it gives you any comfort and aids your resolve I've fitted two new thermostats complete with new capillary tube sensors and a new fridge freezer timer switch that allows such wonderful things as defrost cycles to take place ..... all without any previous experience but with thanks to the big library and much appreciated helpfull people that on the internet.
Best of luck Stu, not sure if you’ve read my comment earlier this year about me having to run a convector heater on at the back of the fridge freezer all the time during winter whilst it was in the garage … augmented by a cardboard housing I built around the freezer ! …. if you do find the location of the sensor, I did read somewhere about a neat little workaround that involved positioning a small low voltage electric light bulb near the sensor end and the heat that was generated by the bulb when turned on was enough to keep the sensor ‘fooled’ and the freezer running ok. The sensor is normally the free end of the small silver coloured soft copper capillary tube that is connected, during manufacture, to the thermostat switch i.e control switch normally found in the fridge. Hope this helps – and if it gives you any comfort and aids your resolve I’ve fitted two new thermostats complete with new capillary tube sensors and a new fridge freezer timer switch that allows such wonderful things as defrost cycles to take place ….. all without any previous experience but with thanks to the big library and much appreciated helpfull people that on the internet.
0 replies Same problem here. In the short term I am going to heat the outside sidewall of the fridge using an old homebrew brew belt. This shhouod trigger the sensor and ensure the freezer freezes. Hopefully an internet search will help me id where the sensor is situated. Insulation alone won't help raise the average ambient temp. It is a crazy silly waste of energy and money though so I am tempted to buy a 2 nd hand freezer and not use the freezer section of my fridge freezer. We should all make our feelings felt. It won't help us individually but might get this ridiculous issue addressed in the long term .
Same problem here. In the short term I am going to heat the outside sidewall of the fridge using an old homebrew brew belt. This shhouod trigger the sensor and ensure the freezer freezes. Hopefully an internet search will help me id where the sensor is situated. Insulation alone won’t help raise the average ambient temp. It is a crazy silly waste of energy and money though so I am tempted to buy a 2 nd hand freezer and not use the freezer section of my fridge freezer. We should all make our feelings felt. It won’t help us individually but might get this ridiculous issue addressed in the long term .
0 replies Hi - useful commentary. I need to buy a compact Freezer and the only one I can find is a Zanussi with a min operating ambient temp of 16 degrees. If I've read this thread correctly this should not be a problem if its in a flat that gets somewhat below that level - or have I misunderstood? Thanks
Hi – useful commentary. I need to buy a compact Freezer and the only one I can find is a Zanussi with a min operating ambient temp of 16 degrees. If I’ve read this thread correctly this should not be a problem if its in a flat that gets somewhat below that level – or have I misunderstood?
Thanks
0 replies Good question Steve. It must have separate stats for fridge and freezer but most other manufacturers say temperatures of even 10 degrees C can cause problems - presumably due to the type of refrigerant used?
Good question Steve. It must have separate stats for fridge and freezer but most other manufacturers say temperatures of even 10 degrees C can cause problems – presumably due to the type of refrigerant used?
0 replies Does anyone know what it is in the Beko fridge-freezer design that makes it unique in being able to perform in cold temperatures such as would be found in a garage? Does it have separate thermostats/compressors for fridge and freezer?...or what? Are they significantly more expensive than other makes?
Does anyone know what it is in the Beko fridge-freezer design that makes it unique in being able to perform in cold temperatures such as would be found in a garage? Does it have separate thermostats/compressors for fridge and freezer?…or what? Are they significantly more expensive than other makes?
0 replies Just a quickie - I too had the 'garage' experience with my Electrolux ER7626B fridge freezer before I moved it into the newly built utility room about 18 months ago. Whilst it was in the garage every time the ambient temperature fell below 10C I had to keep it nice and warm with a big cardboard box surround and a 2kw heater at the back just to make the compressor come on - my work colleagues thought I was joking when I told them!
Just a quickie – I too had the ‘garage’ experience with my Electrolux ER7626B fridge freezer before I moved it into the newly built utility room about 18 months ago. Whilst it was in the garage every time the ambient temperature fell below 10C I had to keep it nice and warm with a big cardboard box surround and a 2kw heater at the back just to make the compressor come on – my work colleagues thought I was joking when I told them!
0 replies My Electrolux Fridge Freezer ER7626B is located inside the house in a utlity room that does not drop below 15C. My problem just started today, the fridge and freezer are getting too cold, i.e. 1C and -30C respectively, and even if I turn the single temperature regulator inside the fridge to setting number 1 or 2 ( 6 being coldest) the compressor just keeps running. I've resorted to turning the appliance off and on at the plug in order to stop the temperatures dropping lower and keeping them to design temperature range. Does this 'overcooling' problem suggest a thermostat replacement is needed or is it indicative of something else e.g. a complete defrost needed?
My Electrolux Fridge Freezer ER7626B is located inside the house in a utlity room that does not drop below 15C. My problem just started today, the fridge and freezer are getting too cold, i.e. 1C and -30C respectively, and even if I turn the single temperature regulator inside the fridge to setting number 1 or 2 ( 6 being coldest) the compressor just keeps running. I’ve resorted to turning the appliance off and on at the plug in order to stop the temperatures dropping lower and keeping them to design temperature range. Does this ‘overcooling’ problem suggest a thermostat replacement is needed or is it indicative of something else e.g. a complete defrost needed?
0 replies Thanks - we turned the fridge to its coldest setting last night and the food in the freezer is still hard this morning. We just needed a short-term fix until our other freezer has room in it to take the food from the freezer compartment of the fridge-freezer (which thankfully is only two shelves.) Now that we know about this issue with this type of fridge-freezer we will make sure that in future we don't use its freezer compartment when we know the weather is going to get really cold. It is amazing though to find this website and see just how many people are affected by this - and how this problem still isn't a well known fact with the wider public. It's a shame the BBC or someone doesn't do a Panorama programme or similar on this!
Thanks – we turned the fridge to its coldest setting last night and the food in the freezer is still hard this morning. We just needed a short-term fix until our other freezer has room in it to take the food from the freezer compartment of the fridge-freezer (which thankfully is only two shelves.) Now that we know about this issue with this type of fridge-freezer we will make sure that in future we don’t use its freezer compartment when we know the weather is going to get really cold. It is amazing though to find this website and see just how many people are affected by this – and how this problem still isn’t a well known fact with the wider public. It’s a shame the BBC or someone doesn’t do a Panorama programme or similar on this!
0 replies Andy: Yes it would be a good way of firing up the freezer. If the temperature remained as cold it should go off again but as an emergency method of getting the freezer running again to save food from totally defrosting it's a good idea. Fiona: The lower you set the fridge temperature the better but if the ambient temperature is low enough the fridge will just not come on at all. I have a fridge in my garage, and at times the temperature in there is freezing or often around 3 - 5 degrees in cold weather. This means the fridge may often just not need to be on or only for short periods. If it was a fridge-freezer with only the one sensor controlling both fridge and freezer I would be in trouble but although I also have two freezers in there they have their own controls and as far as I'm aware work perfectly OK.
Andy: Yes it would be a good way of firing up the freezer. If the temperature remained as cold it should go off again but as an emergency method of getting the freezer running again to save food from totally defrosting it’s a good idea.
Fiona: The lower you set the fridge temperature the better but if the ambient temperature is low enough the fridge will just not come on at all. I have a fridge in my garage, and at times the temperature in there is freezing or often around 3 – 5 degrees in cold weather. This means the fridge may often just not need to be on or only for short periods. If it was a fridge-freezer with only the one sensor controlling both fridge and freezer I would be in trouble but although I also have two freezers in there they have their own controls and as far as I’m aware work perfectly OK.
0 replies We've just had this problem with our Indesit fridge freezer which is situated indoors, but in our utility area. This is connected to the porch, and therefore cold in winter. The temperature has obviously been below 10C in there for a while but we've not noticed a problem until the last two days when the temperature has really dropped outside to below freezing with the snow. We can do without the fridge if necessary while the weather is this cold as we have a separate fridge in our kitchen. Therefore, if we adjust the temperature in the fridge by either turning it right up or right down, will this compensate and get the freezer compartment working again?
We’ve just had this problem with our Indesit fridge freezer which is situated indoors, but in our utility area. This is connected to the porch, and therefore cold in winter. The temperature has obviously been below 10C in there for a while but we’ve not noticed a problem until the last two days when the temperature has really dropped outside to below freezing with the snow.
We can do without the fridge if necessary while the weather is this cold as we have a separate fridge in our kitchen. Therefore, if we adjust the temperature in the fridge by either turning it right up or right down, will this compensate and get the freezer compartment working again?
0 replies Washerhelp: As i said ,"For a quick fix" and it's still running after just the 1 blast, 24hrs later and freezer contents are now frozen solid. I've had to resort to this to save over £200 of frozen food going off. I understand it's not a "repair" as such, but the desired effect was achieved with minimal fuss and no degradation of fridge contents.
Washerhelp: As i said ,”For a quick fix” and it’s still running after just the 1 blast, 24hrs later and freezer contents are now frozen solid. I’ve had to resort to this to save over £200 of frozen food going off. I understand it’s not a “repair” as such, but the desired effect was achieved with minimal fuss and no degradation of fridge contents.
0 replies Andy A quick blast of hot air would only get it running again for a few hours until the temperature caused the fault to re-occur. You would have to keep warming it up every few hours 24/7 and it would play havoc with the fridge contents which would be unable to be kept at a constant few degrees required.
Andy A quick blast of hot air would only get it running again for a few hours until the temperature caused the fault to re-occur. You would have to keep warming it up every few hours 24/7 and it would play havoc with the fridge contents which would be unable to be kept at a constant few degrees required.
0 replies Following on from my post above, the reason for my "eureka moment" was due to my 14yr old fridge-freezer that resides in an outhouse (no room in the kitchen for a fridge would you believe!), not coming on for 4 days due to the recent freezing weather. The freezer bars that are usually clogged up with frost were bare and the bread (which we keep in the freezer and take out a slice at a time as we need it) was soft. It's 2 hours after I gave it the hairdryer treatment and it's still cooling down the freezer even though it's currently -6c in the outhouse.
Following on from my post above, the reason for my “eureka moment” was due to my 14yr old fridge-freezer that resides in an outhouse (no room in the kitchen for a fridge would you believe!), not coming on for 4 days due to the recent freezing weather. The freezer bars that are usually clogged up with frost were bare and the bread (which we keep in the freezer and take out a slice at a time as we need it) was soft.
It’s 2 hours after I gave it the hairdryer treatment and it’s still cooling down the freezer even though it’s currently -6c in the outhouse.
0 replies I can't believe nobody has mentioned this yet! For a quick fix, grab the hairdryer and blast warm air onto the thermostat for 5 minutes. I looked through all the posts to see if this is a recommended practice, but hadn't been mentioned anywhere in any of the forums I've googled. (You're welcome)
I can’t believe nobody has mentioned this yet!
For a quick fix, grab the hairdryer and blast warm air onto the thermostat for 5 minutes.
I looked through all the posts to see if this is a recommended practice, but hadn’t been mentioned anywhere in any of the forums I’ve googled.
(You’re welcome)
0 replies Thanks very much! I was also wondering if 'twin compressor' is the same as 'twin thermostat' as I have seen a model which says it has two compressors in the write up, but I can only see the one single temperature control on it...I am assuming that the shop have it wrong unless thermostats and compressors are two separate things? [edit by Washerhelp] (Feb 2012) Sorry I missed answering this. As far as I'm aware an appliance with twin compressors should have their own sensors. The main issue here is fridge freezers with only one compressor controlling both the fringe compartment and the freezer compartment and only having one sensor in the fridge. As the fridge only needs to be around 2 - 5 degrees but the freezer needs to be at -18 degrees it seems pretty stupid.
Thanks very much!
I was also wondering if ‘twin compressor’ is the same as ‘twin thermostat’ as I have seen a model which says it has two compressors in the write up, but I can only see the one single temperature control on it…I am assuming that the shop have it wrong unless thermostats and compressors are two separate things?
[edit by Washerhelp] (Feb 2012) Sorry I missed answering this.
As far as I’m aware an appliance with twin compressors should have their own sensors. The main issue here is fridge freezers with only one compressor controlling both the fringe compartment and the freezer compartment and only having one sensor in the fridge. As the fridge only needs to be around 2 – 5 degrees but the freezer needs to be at -18 degrees it seems pretty stupid.
0 replies yes Victoria, only the Beko fridge freezers appear to be claiming to be suitable for a garage. If another brand has only one stat controlling fridge and freezer it will almost certainly fail in a garage when it gets cold. Freezer will defrost fully or partially. If it has separate stats it may work ok and shouldn't suffer from the defrosting issue but not necessarily without any consequences or as efficiently as it otherwise would and would not be guaranteed by the manufacturer. You shouldn't need to turn off the fridge. If it's cold enough to not need the fridge running the fridge stat should prevent it running for you.
yes Victoria, only the Beko fridge freezers appear to be claiming to be suitable for a garage. If another brand has only one stat controlling fridge and freezer it will almost certainly fail in a garage when it gets cold. Freezer will defrost fully or partially. If it has separate stats it may work ok and shouldn’t suffer from the defrosting issue but not necessarily without any consequences or as efficiently as it otherwise would and would not be guaranteed by the manufacturer.
You shouldn’t need to turn off the fridge. If it’s cold enough to not need the fridge running the fridge stat should prevent it running for you.
0 replies Hi, I have read this whole article and comment thread page and just want to check my understanding of this: Apart from the Beko models which have the frost guard technology and so operate in ambient temperatures of -15 you need to buy a twin thermostat fridge freezer if you want to keep it in the garage? However, all the twin thermostat models I have looked at say that they should be kept in rooms no colder than 10 degrees, so how can they be safely stored in a garage during winter if this is the manufacturers advice? Also, do all twin thermostat fridge freezers allow you to turn off the fridge (set the temperature high) to save energy when you are only using the freezer in the garage? Many Thanks!
Hi,
I have read this whole article and comment thread page and just want to check my understanding of this:
Apart from the Beko models which have the frost guard technology and so operate in ambient temperatures of -15 you need to buy a twin thermostat fridge freezer if you want to keep it in the garage? However, all the twin thermostat models I have looked at say that they should be kept in rooms no colder than 10 degrees, so how can they be safely stored in a garage during winter if this is the manufacturers advice?
Also, do all twin thermostat fridge freezers allow you to turn off the fridge (set the temperature high) to save energy when you are only using the freezer in the garage?
Many Thanks!
0 replies Bravo Andy!! (...and Washerhelp)... I couldn't agree more. The limitations of these single thermostat fridge/freezers should be made CREAR by the manufacurers and retailers so that Joe Public (who has NO IDEA about these technical issues) won't be duped into buying something wholely unsuitable.
Bravo Andy!! (…and Washerhelp)… I couldn’t agree more.
The limitations of these single thermostat fridge/freezers should be made CREAR by the manufacurers and retailers so that Joe Public (who has NO IDEA about these technical issues) won’t be duped into buying something wholely unsuitable.
0 replies I agree Andy. I think some say they can't guarantee they'll work properly below 14 degrees C which is easily the temperature of many peoples kitchens during the night or when away on holiday. The one sensor controlling two totally separate compartments with vastly differing temperature requirements is plain daft in my opinion.
I agree Andy. I think some say they can’t guarantee they’ll work properly below 14 degrees C which is easily the temperature of many peoples kitchens during the night or when away on holiday. The one sensor controlling two totally separate compartments with vastly differing temperature requirements is plain daft in my opinion.
0 replies I'm from Dundee, so I was certainly not suggesting that people leave their CH off during winter holidays, but in my case, I use a frost setting. In order to check this, I have left a recording thermometer in the house and it has been as low as 5 deg C, which is fine for preventing cisterns or pipework freezing. It also saves a fortune in gas. However this would put the fridge freezers outwith their normal operating specifications, and risk shutting down the whole unit. I'm sorry Robin, but for the manufacturers to knowingly sell such equipment for the sake of saving £5 (production cost!) for an extra thermostat beggars belief. Maybe for the countries bordering the Med, it's not a problem, but at the very least, where I live, there should be a prominent 'health' warning, splashed across the front of them,....and if it takes the Govt to do this, then so be it. I repeat,..."Keep your house heated so that your freezer stays cold!",...you couldn't make it up.
I’m from Dundee, so I was certainly not suggesting that people leave their CH off during winter holidays, but in my case, I use a frost setting. In order to check this, I have left a recording thermometer in the house and it has been as low as 5 deg C, which is fine for preventing cisterns or pipework freezing. It also saves a fortune in gas. However this would put the fridge freezers outwith their normal operating specifications, and risk shutting down the whole unit. I’m sorry Robin, but for the manufacturers to knowingly sell such equipment for the sake of saving £5 (production cost!) for an extra thermostat beggars belief. Maybe for the countries bordering the Med, it’s not a problem, but at the very least, where I live, there should be a prominent ‘health’ warning, splashed across the front of them,….and if it takes the Govt to do this, then so be it. I repeat,…”Keep your house heated so that your freezer stays cold!”,…you couldn’t make it up.
0 replies Andy McQueen says: January 19, 2012 at 6:13 pm > It is my opinion that fridge freezers with a single thermostat > for the fridge really should be banned on environmental grounds Heaven preserve us from yet more Government interference ! Caveat emptor. If no-one bought them, then they wouldn't sell them nor make them, so there must be a demand.
Andy McQueen says: January 19, 2012 at 6:13 pm
> It is my opinion that fridge freezers with a single thermostat
> for the fridge really should be banned on environmental grounds
Heaven preserve us from yet more Government interference !
Caveat emptor. If no-one bought them, then they wouldn’t sell them nor make them, so there must be a demand.
0 replies Yes Andy I've made the exact same point in my article. If they are saying that they will not work below about 4 degrees C then some people going on holiday in winter could have their food partially defrosted especially if they live in a cold house, or don't have great insulation. My in-laws for example go away for a full month each Christmas and do not leave their heating on.
Yes Andy I’ve made the exact same point in my article. If they are saying that they will not work below about 4 degrees C then some people going on holiday in winter could have their food partially defrosted especially if they live in a cold house, or don’t have great insulation. My in-laws for example go away for a full month each Christmas and do not leave their heating on.
0 replies I came across this thread while looking for a different fridge freezer problem. I am quite frankly amazed. It is my opinion that fridge freezers with a single thermostat for the fridge really should be banned on environmental grounds, We have a ridiculous situation here where, in a temporarily unoccupied house, (say, during a winter holiday?), we have to use needless excess energy through a central heating system, in order to keep our frozen food cold. This must go against just about every Government energy saving initiative,....madness. Am I alone here...?
I came across this thread while looking for a different fridge freezer problem. I am quite frankly amazed. It is my opinion that fridge freezers with a single thermostat for the fridge really should be banned on environmental grounds, We have a ridiculous situation here where, in a temporarily unoccupied house, (say, during a winter holiday?), we have to use needless excess energy through a central heating system, in order to keep our frozen food cold. This must go against just about every Government energy saving initiative,….madness. Am I alone here…?
0 replies I really did like your section regarding fridge-freezers and the fact that one thermostat results in in correct operation should the unit be working or trying to work when the ambient termperaute is at 10 deg.C or lower. I would like to mention that I purchased a Bosch fridge-freezer in 1999 and they had a swittch for this purpose which would result in the internal built in fridge light being reduced in power such that it gave of a tiny amount of heat even when the fridge door, which would normally turn off the light, was shut and thus enable normal thermostatic operation. It does work and has worked for me but I am not sure if Bosch have this now or even market fridge-freezers?
I really did like your section regarding fridge-freezers and the fact that one thermostat results in in correct operation should the unit be working or trying to work when the ambient termperaute is at 10 deg.C or lower.
I would like to mention that I purchased a Bosch fridge-freezer in 1999 and they had a swittch for this purpose which would result in the internal built in fridge light being reduced in power such that it gave of a tiny amount of heat even when the fridge door, which would normally turn off the light, was shut and thus enable normal thermostatic operation.
It does work and has worked for me but I am not sure if Bosch have this now or even market fridge-freezers?
0 replies Thanks so much for this information. Can you buy garage refrigerator kits for Zanussi? If not I will turn off the garage fridge freezer until the weather warms up a bit and make do without a 2nd freezer and overflow fridge. Old garage freezer still works fine. If I do have to buy another fridge freezer I will certainly make sure it is suitable for garages.
Thanks so much for this information. Can you buy garage refrigerator kits for Zanussi? If not I will turn off the garage fridge freezer until the weather warms up a bit and make do without a 2nd freezer and overflow fridge. Old garage freezer still works fine. If I do have to buy another fridge freezer I will certainly make sure it is suitable for garages.
0 replies We have had the same problem with a hotpoint fridge freezer purchased from John Lewis outlet store, We advised the sales assistant it was going into the garage and the couple of dents in the side would not matter. The freezer defrosted after the cold snap and when we we called an engineer out he explained it only had one thermostat and therefore wasn't suitable for the garage. We rang John Lewis outlet store, explained that we said we were putting it in a garage, she apologised and sent us a full refund in John Lewis vouchers.
We have had the same problem with a hotpoint fridge freezer purchased from John Lewis outlet store, We advised the sales assistant it was going into the garage and the couple of dents in the side would not matter. The freezer defrosted after the cold snap and when we we called an engineer out he explained it only had one thermostat and therefore wasn’t suitable for the garage. We rang John Lewis outlet store, explained that we said we were putting it in a garage, she apologised and sent us a full refund in John Lewis vouchers.
0 replies My Zanussi model ZFU 325W upright freezer (located in the garage) has recently failed and I have had to throw out quite a lot of food. It has a climate rating of "N" so I appreciate that in winter there could be problems as the ambient temperature mught be too cold. However, it has failed in August when this is not a problem! I'm told that it might need a "regas" (whatever that is!) - which couldbe an economical repair - or that the compressor has failed (why?) - which is unlikely to be an economical repair. The freezer is only 2 years old and I don't want to have to buy a new one if this can be avoided. Any suggestions as to what might be wrong and why?
My Zanussi model ZFU 325W upright freezer (located in the garage) has recently failed and I have had to throw out quite a lot of food.
It has a climate rating of “N” so I appreciate that in winter there could be problems as the ambient temperature mught be too cold. However, it has failed in August when this is not a problem!
I’m told that it might need a “regas” (whatever that is!) – which couldbe an economical repair – or that the compressor has failed (why?) – which is unlikely to be an economical repair.
The freezer is only 2 years old and I don’t want to have to buy a new one if this can be avoided.
Any suggestions as to what might be wrong and why?
0 replies @ Zena After reading this *very* helpful thread, we're going to buy the BEKO CFA1300W chest freezer for our garage (Curry's sell them), whose operating temperature is between -15C to 43C - perfect. It's a larger 13.2 cubic feet chest freezer, but BEKO also do a smaller version, more the traditional standalone size, if you need something smaller.
@ Zena
After reading this *very* helpful thread, we’re going to buy the BEKO CFA1300W chest freezer for our garage (Curry’s sell them), whose operating temperature is between -15C to 43C – perfect. It’s a larger 13.2 cubic feet chest freezer, but BEKO also do a smaller version, more the traditional standalone size, if you need something smaller.
0 replies I went to comet today to consider upgrading my old freezer and was asked where it would be located and I told them in the garage was instsntly told it would not be covered by any waranty as it could fail if the climate went below 16 . I apreciated their honesty and came away to reconsider my options I had also made the same enquiry at curries and was not given any information the only reason I decided to go to comet was they had no charge for delivery Is there any company with a freezer that I can position in my garage My kitchen is small so have no space to spare
I went to comet today to consider upgrading my old freezer and was asked where it would be located and I told them in the garage was instsntly told it would not be covered by any waranty as it could fail if the climate went below 16
. I apreciated their honesty and came away to reconsider my options I had also made the same enquiry at curries and was not given any information the only reason I decided to go to comet was they had no charge for delivery
Is there any company with a freezer that I can position in my garage My kitchen is small so have no space to spare
0 replies That was just my situation a couple of weeks ago. The advice is totally confusing, but Beko is definitely the only brand which says it works in a cold environment. So that's what I bought, not a bad price at Currys for the bottom of the line 3.6 cu ft model, which is all you want for the garage anyway. Delivered free too! Just do it Fay!
That was just my situation a couple of weeks ago. The advice is totally confusing, but Beko is definitely the only brand which says it works in a cold environment. So that’s what I bought, not a bad price at Currys for the bottom of the line 3.6 cu ft model, which is all you want for the garage anyway. Delivered free too! Just do it Fay!
0 replies Fay: It's fridge-freezers that have this specific issue of defrosting in cold temperatures though fridges and freezers are still only rated to work within specific temperature ranges as described here - Climate Classes for fridges, freezers and fridge-freezers and could suffer problems if sited in areas where the temperature greatly exceeds the range specified by the climate class. I personally have one fridge and two separate freezers in my garage which appear to work fine though apart from the freezers accumulating large wet patches of condensation sometimes. You need to ask what its climate class is. Climate class should be printed on the rating plate usually inside the appliance (Where is the model or serial number on a fridge or freezer?) Please let me know so I can add it. The climate class list I've published has the lowest acceptable temperature at 10 degrees C. Ultimately if they say it will be ok to go in your garage and it isn't you will be entitled to a refund under the sale of goods act. Get them to put it in writing somewhere or show you the climate class or instruction book where it says it will be ok down to -15. Please keep us informed.
Fay: It’s fridge-freezers that have this specific issue of defrosting in cold temperatures though fridges and freezers are still only rated to work within specific temperature ranges as described here – Climate Classes for fridges, freezers and fridge-freezers and could suffer problems if sited in areas where the temperature greatly exceeds the range specified by the climate class. I personally have one fridge and two separate freezers in my garage which appear to work fine though apart from the freezers accumulating large wet patches of condensation sometimes.
You need to ask what its climate class is. Climate class should be printed on the rating plate usually inside the appliance (Where is the model or serial number on a fridge or freezer?) Please let me know so I can add it. The climate class list I’ve published has the lowest acceptable temperature at 10 degrees C.
Ultimately if they say it will be ok to go in your garage and it isn’t you will be entitled to a refund under the sale of goods act. Get them to put it in writing somewhere or show you the climate class or instruction book where it says it will be ok down to -15. Please keep us informed.
0 replies I found all the blogs very helpful - having decided that it should be a beko for the new freezer for my garage -I went to local store and was told I didn't need to by a beko (frost free versions as they are guaranteed to work to minus 15)!!!! what am I supposed to do now? as I only need a freezer what do y ou advise ? thanks and regards, rather confused!
I found all the blogs very helpful – having decided that it should be a beko for the new freezer for my garage -I went to local store and was told I didn’t need to by a beko (frost free versions as they are guaranteed to work to minus 15)!!!! what am I supposed to do now? as I only need a freezer what do y ou advise ?
thanks and regards, rather confused!
0 replies Neil: Freezers shouldn't be affected by the defrosting in cold weather issue that some fridge-freezers have when the fridge stat turns off, but they are still prone to certain issues if installed in places that exceed the maximum temperature or drop below the minimum temperature as stated on the appliances climate class They can also suffer from condensation, and manufacturers may try to void the guarantee. However, many separate freezers and fridges reside in garages all over the country as do mine. I have 1 fridge and 2 upright freezers all of which appear to function perfectly ok. If you buy one intended to go into a garage I would consider a Beko freezer, which appears to be only brand that says their freezers are ok down to quite a cold temperature. At the very least you should ensure any freezer has an alarm that warns you if the temperature has been raised to dangerous defrosting levels. My 2 freezers have been in my garage over the recent extremely cold spell when outside temperatures dropped bellow minus 14 and neither of them partially defrosted - even though my water pipes burst.
Neil: Freezers shouldn’t be affected by the defrosting in cold weather issue that some fridge-freezers have when the fridge stat turns off, but they are still prone to certain issues if installed in places that exceed the maximum temperature or drop below the minimum temperature as stated on the appliances climate class
They can also suffer from condensation, and manufacturers may try to void the guarantee. However, many separate freezers and fridges reside in garages all over the country as do mine. I have 1 fridge and 2 upright freezers all of which appear to function perfectly ok. If you buy one intended to go into a garage I would consider a Beko freezer, which appears to be only brand that says their freezers are ok down to quite a cold temperature. At the very least you should ensure any freezer has an alarm that warns you if the temperature has been raised to dangerous defrosting levels.
My 2 freezers have been in my garage over the recent extremely cold spell when outside temperatures dropped bellow minus 14 and neither of them partially defrosted – even though my water pipes burst.
0 replies My ancient (22years +) freezer out there in the garage is seemingly on its last legs. I think I'll have to replace it tomorrow. It's worked fine over two decades and through a couple of bitter recent winters. The thing is, I've read all the stuff about low ambient temperatures, and what I need to know is if the low tempreature restriction also valid for a conventional freezer (with no fridge bit). I hope someone can tell me, and I'm also disconcerted to find thatthis perfectly normal situation of a fridge or freezer in a garage hasn'r t been solved. Can anyone help please?
My ancient (22years +) freezer out there in the garage is seemingly on its last legs. I think I’ll have to replace it tomorrow. It’s worked fine over two decades and through a couple of bitter recent winters. The thing is, I’ve read all the stuff about low ambient temperatures, and what I need to know is if the low tempreature restriction also valid for a conventional freezer (with no fridge bit). I hope someone can tell me, and I’m also disconcerted to find thatthis perfectly normal situation of a fridge or freezer in a garage hasn’r t been solved. Can anyone help please?
0 replies Thanks for that Leon: It's vital to tell the sales person where you intend to site the appliance if it's not to go in the "normal" place. That way you have full rights to return it as unfit for purpose under the sale of goods act if it proves to be unsuitable for the requirements you specified. However, proving you asked is impossible unless you have it in writing. The fact that you did ask though makes your protestations much more believable as you know you aren't lying. They probably realised you were pretty genuine.
Thanks for that Leon: It’s vital to tell the sales person where you intend to site the appliance if it’s not to go in the “normal” place. That way you have full rights to return it as unfit for purpose under the sale of goods act if it proves to be unsuitable for the requirements you specified. However, proving you asked is impossible unless you have it in writing. The fact that you did ask though makes your protestations much more believable as you know you aren’t lying. They probably realised you were pretty genuine.
0 replies Hi All ..... I have read this blog with interest. I have the solution! It worked for me! I bought a fridge from Comets last year but ...... when I did, I informed the sales man it was going into my garage. He said nothing and gave me no advice - all shop floor sales peeps want is a sale! Needless to say, it went wrong this winter during the cold spell. I went back to Comets, complained / argued I was sold a fridge which was not 'fit for purpose' as i had advised what I wanted it for and where it would be located. It was initially refuted I had told the salesman but I pressed my facts / logic. Comets then refunded me, took the fridge back and advised they did not sell ANY fridges that worked in the climate class required. So ...... the lesson learnt is always tell the shop WHY / WHAT you are making your purchase for - for any purchase you make. if it is then mis-sold to you, law states you have redress because it is either misrepresentation or a sale not fit for purpose. Hope that helps.
Hi All ….. I have read this blog with interest. I have the solution! It worked for me! I bought a fridge from Comets last year but …… when I did, I informed the sales man it was going into my garage. He said nothing and gave me no advice – all shop floor sales peeps want is a sale!
Needless to say, it went wrong this winter during the cold spell. I went back to Comets, complained / argued I was sold a fridge which was not ‘fit for purpose’ as i had advised what I wanted it for and where it would be located. It was initially refuted I had told the salesman but I pressed my facts / logic. Comets then refunded me, took the fridge back and advised they did not sell ANY fridges that worked in the climate class required. So …… the lesson learnt is always tell the shop WHY / WHAT you are making your purchase for – for any purchase you make. if it is then mis-sold to you, law states you have redress because it is either misrepresentation or a sale not fit for purpose. Hope that helps.
0 replies Its a pity these comments cant be sent to the manufacturers and the designers,maybe then they will realise the shortcomings of a useless design. And make and indeed sell more freezers and fridges that do work at lower temperatures and save all this banter, saving time wasted effort and frustration. I to have got this problem and I am very angry, we seem to be going backwards. Like so many other products we have been making for over 150years and you would of thought by now they should be perfect.
Its a pity these comments cant be sent to the manufacturers and the designers,maybe then they will realise the shortcomings of a useless design. And make and indeed sell more freezers and fridges that do work at lower temperatures and save all this banter, saving time wasted effort and frustration.
I to have got this problem and I am very angry, we seem to be going backwards.
Like so many other products we have been making for over 150years and you would of thought by now they should be perfect.
0 replies I'm happy with the Beko Frost-Free Fridge Freezer I bought especially to cope with my cold conditions in April last year. And cope it has. Nowadays it is noisier though. The fan still runs smoothly with a pleasant low hum. But now there is also a gurgling and (more disconcertingly) an occasional wheezing, possibly, as if a piston is struggling to push. Beko have said it is normal. Due to change in ambient temp. Working harder now as weather cold. Noise is the sound of compressor pumping coolant. My sense is that this sounds illogical since coolant is pumped all year, and even when the fan is not operating. Also coolant pumping would be smooth (like central heating circulator pump) and not in short bursts as in the wheezing. So, I'm not sure that I am happy with this explanation and I'd like to know for sure before the guarantee runs out. Any thoughts?
I’m happy with the Beko Frost-Free Fridge Freezer I bought especially to cope with my cold conditions in April last year. And cope it has.
Nowadays it is noisier though. The fan still runs smoothly with a pleasant low hum. But now there is also a gurgling and (more disconcertingly) an occasional wheezing, possibly, as if a piston is struggling to push.
Beko have said it is normal. Due to change in ambient temp. Working harder now as weather cold. Noise is the sound of compressor pumping coolant.
My sense is that this sounds illogical since coolant is pumped all year, and even when the fan is not operating. Also coolant pumping would be smooth (like central heating circulator pump) and not in short bursts as in the wheezing.
So, I’m not sure that I am happy with this explanation and I’d like to know for sure before the guarantee runs out.
Any thoughts?
0 replies Thank you for your very prompt response. Sounds like (if you'll forgive the unavoidable pun) it may have a fault, and it may not. Like the Beko man said: you only need to worry if the temperature rises in the freezer. Maybe. But I try to worry before it gets critical. Anyway, I'm reassured for now, if still puzzled by the source of the variety of noises you describe. I’m still not entirely convinced that a frost-free was the right decision. Apart from the odd noises you gain, you do lose a lot of internal volume. And long-term reliability and running costs are still waiting to be established. I’m keeping everything crossed.
Thank you for your very prompt response. Sounds like (if you’ll forgive the unavoidable pun) it may have a fault, and it may not.
Like the Beko man said: you only need to worry if the temperature rises in the freezer. Maybe. But I try to worry before it gets critical. Anyway, I’m reassured for now, if still puzzled by the source of the variety of noises you describe.
I’m still not entirely convinced that a frost-free was the right decision. Apart from the odd noises you gain, you do lose a lot of internal volume. And long-term reliability and running costs are still waiting to be established. I’m keeping everything crossed.
0 replies Tom... Welcome to the REAL world... (or should that be RETAIL world!). If you read the full thread above you will find explanations (although NOT a complete one) of why your appliance won't work. ESPECIALLY read Washerhelp's post #79 for the legal position. IMHO these appliances really SHOULD be sold with these operating limits CLEARLY stated so that ordinary consumers know what they are buying. Personally I'm CONVINCED the retail companies continue to operate this way KNOWING they can make a killing in their service departments. They just blame YOU for not understanding the operating limits of your appliance. As Washerhelp states - TEST CASES NEEDED. (Good luck!!)
Tom… Welcome to the REAL world… (or should that be RETAIL world!). If you read the full thread above you will find explanations (although NOT a complete one) of why your appliance won’t work. ESPECIALLY read Washerhelp’s post #79 for the legal position.
IMHO these appliances really SHOULD be sold with these operating limits CLEARLY stated so that ordinary consumers know what they are buying. Personally I’m CONVINCED the retail companies continue to operate this way KNOWING they can make a killing in their service departments. They just blame YOU for not understanding the operating limits of your appliance.
As Washerhelp states – TEST CASES NEEDED. (Good luck!!)
0 replies I Bought an Indesit BAAN134 Fridge Freezer from Argos in June 2010. I did this to help the environment by replacing separate fridge and freezer which here getting old but still working (even in cold temperatures I.E. -10 deg C) This BAAN134 Fridge Freezer started playing up in August 2010. The fridge and freezer went dead, light included, but after two visits the repair man seemed to fix the problem (well at least the light was on). But come the first cold snap of winter and it started playing up again. On contacting Argos and arranging an engineer I received a call from the engineer saying it was pointless him coming out to visit as the problem was the temperature outside the appliance that was causing the problem. On contacting Indesit I was told that as per the instruct manual (the one you get after you purchase the appliance) that it will not work in air temperature 14 deg C and Under. Whatever the reason for these Fridge Freezers being designed like this, surely Indesit and Argos are selling these Fridge Freezers that are not fit for purpose when selling them in the UK. Here in Aberdeen we are lucky to get above 14 Deg C for 6 months of the year and to expect people to heat the homes during the day and when they are away just to keep the Fridge Freezer working is totally ridiculous and wipes out any energy efficiency of the machine.
I Bought an Indesit BAAN134 Fridge Freezer from Argos in June 2010. I did this to help the environment by replacing separate fridge and freezer which here getting old but still working (even in cold temperatures I.E. -10 deg C) This BAAN134 Fridge Freezer started playing up in August 2010. The fridge and freezer went dead, light included, but after two visits the repair man seemed to fix the problem (well at least the light was on). But come the first cold snap of winter and it started playing up again. On contacting Argos and arranging an engineer I received a call from the engineer saying it was pointless him coming out to visit as the problem was the temperature outside the appliance that was causing the problem. On contacting Indesit I was told that as per the instruct manual (the one you get after you purchase the appliance) that it will not work in air temperature 14 deg C and Under. Whatever the reason for these Fridge Freezers being designed like this, surely Indesit and Argos are selling these Fridge Freezers that are not fit for purpose when selling them in the UK. Here in Aberdeen we are lucky to get above 14 Deg C for 6 months of the year and to expect people to heat the homes during the day and when they are away just to keep the Fridge Freezer working is totally ridiculous and wipes out any energy efficiency of the machine.
0 replies I purchased an Indesit fridge/freezer in June from Empire Stores online. Before I placed the order I read the 'product details'. Nowhere was it mentioned that the product would not work in a garage in the Winter and the Indesit delivery man even delivered the appliance to my garage, still I was not told. I have complained to Empire Stores about lack of vital details in their 'product details' but they do not want to know! Does this give me the right to say that I was missold this fridge/freezer?
I purchased an Indesit fridge/freezer in June from Empire Stores online. Before I placed the order I read the ‘product details’. Nowhere was it mentioned that the product would not work in a garage in the Winter and the Indesit delivery man even delivered the appliance to my garage, still I was not told. I have complained to Empire Stores about lack of vital details in their ‘product details’ but they do not want to know! Does this give me the right to say that I was missold this fridge/freezer?
0 replies @ Robin Clay.... Sorry, I didn't catch from your earlier post that you meant that you'd put the lightbulb OUTSIDE. I think WillsRef has explained that this CAN'T be influencing a non-existent Ambient Temperature sensor. HOWEVER... I do wonder if it's actually achieving what I was intending with my proposed enclosure (i.e. it's keeping the Condenser warmer, so the refridgerant is NOT arriving at the Expansion Valve TOO COLD... It's the ambient temperature AROUND the condenser that is important!!). Having a source of heat INSIDE the fridge DOES makes SOME sense where "one thermostat is controlling the fridge/freezer in COLD ambient conditions". If the fridge compartment can be warmed by the lightbulb above it's lowest setting (say 4 degrees).. when it would otherwise fall below this to match the ambient temperature.. then the thermostat will switch ON the compressor and the freezer will stay frozen (The compressor will stay on until such time as the fridge compartment falls below say 4 degrees, when the thermostat switches it OFF). The lightbulb then continues this cycle by warming the fridge compartment again. The heat output from the lightbulb must always be greater than the rate of heat loss from the fridge compartment TO the garage... and this depends on just HOW cold the garage is! (PS - Somebody earlier did suggest over-riding the switch for the built-in compartment light so that it was ALWAYS ON - same basic idea!) This may be a LOWER energy strategy than other solutions, such as warming the condenser externally.. or especially.. HEATING the WHOLE garage! However.. is still seems DAFT to me.. to be warming up an appliance designed for cooling things! Footnote : Be careful that the heat output from the lightbulb inside the fridge compartment is not SO GREAT that when the ambient temperature warms up, the cooling capacity of the fridge WON'T keep up with the heat gain from the light!... Your food in the fridge compartment will get too warm.. The food in your freezer will frost up... and you'll probably burn out (or trip-out) the compressor as it struggles, staying on continuously, trying in vain to cool the fridge and get the thermostat to switch it OFF!! @ alfie... Good point about the compressor! Are you SURE that compressors don't struggle when an upright or chest FREEZER won't work in low ambient conditions? Surely, it IS possible they run until the compressor gets so hot that it's OVER TEMPERATURE sensor (see comment from WillsRef to Robin Clay above) trips it off. I guess it would restart automatically when the compressor naturally cools down due to the cold ambient air around it?.. and continue cycling in vain. COMMENTS ANYONE? @ WillsRef... Your description of the fridge/freezer problem is simply elaborating on what Washerhelp has already explained... that it is the "ONE THERMOSTAT" that is the cause (when talking FRIDGE/FREEZERS!). ... but why DON'T some UPRIGHT or CHEST FREEZERS work in low ambient conditions?... STILL AWAITING a convincing ANSWER on that (at least.. One that's BETTER than mine!..haha) I CAN see how insulating PART, or MOST, of the condenser might work.. in the same way my proposed enclosure might work - by restricting the cooling effect of the cold ambient air on an over-sized condenser! (sized to work in warmer ambient conditions where it's harder to eject the required heat to get the temperature conditions right for the refridgerant at the expansion valve). Any EXPERTS out there who'd like to shed light and some REAL facts on this?
@ Robin Clay….
Sorry, I didn’t catch from your earlier post that you meant that you’d put the lightbulb OUTSIDE. I think WillsRef has explained that this CAN’T be influencing a non-existent Ambient Temperature sensor. HOWEVER… I do wonder if it’s actually achieving what I was intending with my proposed enclosure (i.e. it’s keeping the Condenser warmer, so the refridgerant is NOT arriving at the Expansion Valve TOO COLD… It’s the ambient temperature AROUND the condenser that is important!!).
Having a source of heat INSIDE the fridge DOES makes SOME sense where “one thermostat is controlling the fridge/freezer in COLD ambient conditions”. If the fridge compartment can be warmed by the lightbulb above it’s lowest setting (say 4 degrees).. when it would otherwise fall below this to match the ambient temperature.. then the thermostat will switch ON the compressor and the freezer will stay frozen (The compressor will stay on until such time as the fridge compartment falls below say 4 degrees, when the thermostat switches it OFF). The lightbulb then continues this cycle by warming the fridge compartment again. The heat output from the lightbulb must always be greater than the rate of heat loss from the fridge compartment TO the garage… and this depends on just HOW cold the garage is! (PS – Somebody earlier did suggest over-riding the switch for the built-in compartment light so that it was ALWAYS ON – same basic idea!)
This may be a LOWER energy strategy than other solutions, such as warming the condenser externally.. or especially.. HEATING the WHOLE garage! However.. is still seems DAFT to me.. to be warming up an appliance designed for cooling things!
Footnote : Be careful that the heat output from the lightbulb inside the fridge compartment is not SO GREAT that when the ambient temperature warms up, the cooling capacity of the fridge WON’T keep up with the heat gain from the light!… Your food in the fridge compartment will get too warm.. The food in your freezer will frost up… and you’ll probably burn out (or trip-out) the compressor as it struggles, staying on continuously, trying in vain to cool the fridge and get the thermostat to switch it OFF!!
@ alfie…
Good point about the compressor!
Are you SURE that compressors don’t struggle when an upright or chest FREEZER won’t work in low ambient conditions? Surely, it IS possible they run until the compressor gets so hot that it’s OVER TEMPERATURE sensor (see comment from WillsRef to Robin Clay above) trips it off. I guess it would restart automatically when the compressor naturally cools down due to the cold ambient air around it?.. and continue cycling in vain. COMMENTS ANYONE?
@ WillsRef…
Your description of the fridge/freezer problem is simply elaborating on what Washerhelp has already explained… that it is the “ONE THERMOSTAT” that is the cause (when talking FRIDGE/FREEZERS!).
… but why DON’T some UPRIGHT or CHEST FREEZERS work in low ambient conditions?… STILL AWAITING a convincing ANSWER on that (at least.. One that’s BETTER than mine!..haha)
I CAN see how insulating PART, or MOST, of the condenser might work.. in the same way my proposed enclosure might work – by restricting the cooling effect of the cold ambient air on an over-sized condenser! (sized to work in warmer ambient conditions where it’s harder to eject the required heat to get the temperature conditions right for the refridgerant at the expansion valve).
Any EXPERTS out there who’d like to shed light and some REAL facts on this?
0 replies Temps in MIdlands went down to minus 18 - we have a Beko CDA539FW in the kitchen. We do not heat the kitchen at all - and have not cooked at home for several days (Yuletide family visits) noticed freezer produce was soft) Hoping this is the issue. Light still works, but temperature in kitchen still only 3 degrees at the moment. Might put the radiator on and see what happens today. (We never use the kitchen other than to wang something in the oven or put the kettle on - it's annexed off the main house and requires a 4 foot double radiator on full blast 24/7 to keep warm in a normal temperate winter - but during this mega cold spell - I doubt even that would work - we can't afford that sort of extravegance) Pretty much certain it's turned itself off - but we will see.
Temps in MIdlands went down to minus 18 – we have a
Beko CDA539FW in the kitchen. We do not heat the kitchen at all – and have not cooked at home for several days (Yuletide family visits) noticed freezer produce was soft)
Hoping this is the issue. Light still works, but temperature in kitchen still only 3 degrees at the moment. Might put the radiator on and see what happens today. (We never use the kitchen other than to wang something in the oven or put the kettle on – it’s annexed off the main house and requires a 4 foot double radiator on full blast 24/7 to keep warm in a normal temperate winter – but during this mega cold spell – I doubt even that would work – we can’t afford that sort of extravegance)
Pretty much certain it’s turned itself off – but we will see.
0 replies What an interesting read!... I've long been puzzled why a device for cooling stuff should not find it EASIER to work in a cold environment than a hot one. I completely understand the case that Washerhelp has so eloquently made against fridge-freezers with only ONE thermostat. However, I believe there is more to this than has been explained so far (although I am in no way a Refridgeration ENGINEER - shame there's been no expert comment from a qualified designer on here). I think the problem of siting a fridge or even a freezer in cold ambient conditions is down to the DESIGN of the refridgerant circuit of the appliance and NOT just the on/off temperature control. In words, it works like this - Refridgerant gas is compressed and warmed by the compressor (as your bicycle pump warms when used) ; The heat is then extracted by the condenser (the radiator at the rear of the appliance) by warming up the cooler ambient air around it - this condenses the high pressure gas into a warm high pressure liquid ; This is squirted through a small hole into a bigger pipe which expands the gas and greatly COOLS it (as an aerosol can would do) : this cold gas passes around coils (the evaporator) in the fridge/ freezer extracting heat before returning to the compressor in a warmer state. HOWEVER, if the ambient air temperature around the appliance is very cold then it's possible to OVER-COOL the liquid in the condenser, meaning it arrives at the expansion valve too cold. This means the expansion won't work properly as designed and won't reach the low temperatures required to cool the fridge/freezer. it IS possible to design circuits for low ambient temperatures, but most manufacturers optimise their appliances for household temperatures, above about 10 degrees C, mainly to make them affordable. I don't think the manufacturers or retailers provide enough information about their appliances for the general public to make the right choices. BEKO seem to have understood this in offering special designs for low ambient temperatures. I agree with Washerhelp that retailers prefer the status quo and continue to profit from making call-outs that they know won't require any fixing and which won't be blamed on them. My thoughts on a fix?... Don't add light bulbs inside the appliance (seems silly to ADD heat to a device designed to extract it - although I can see how it kind of works)... Don't add a fan heater or central heating to your garage (seems silly to heat up all that space in a cold climate in order to keep stuff cool)... BUT, maybe put a ventilated enclosure around the condenser at the rear of the appliance to limit the cold air reaching it, and remove it in the summer (ok... this might be risky and cause other problems - this is where an expert view would be of value). Maybe, if you already have an appliance designed for household temperatures, you'll just have to bring it inside or dump it! Any thoughts on my ramblings?
What an interesting read!… I’ve long been puzzled why a device for cooling stuff should not find it EASIER to work in a cold environment than a hot one.
I completely understand the case that Washerhelp has so eloquently made against fridge-freezers with only ONE thermostat. However, I believe there is more to this than has been explained so far (although I am in no way a Refridgeration ENGINEER – shame there’s been no expert comment from a qualified designer on here).
I think the problem of siting a fridge or even a freezer in cold ambient conditions is down to the DESIGN of the refridgerant circuit of the appliance and NOT just the on/off temperature control.
In words, it works like this – Refridgerant gas is compressed and warmed by the compressor (as your bicycle pump warms when used) ; The heat is then extracted by the condenser (the radiator at the rear of the appliance) by warming up the cooler ambient air around it – this condenses the high pressure gas into a warm high pressure liquid ; This is squirted through a small hole into a bigger pipe which expands the gas and greatly COOLS it (as an aerosol can would do) : this cold gas passes around coils (the evaporator) in the fridge/ freezer extracting heat before returning to the compressor in a warmer state.
HOWEVER, if the ambient air temperature around the appliance is very cold then it’s possible to OVER-COOL the liquid in the condenser, meaning it arrives at the expansion valve too cold. This means the expansion won’t work properly as designed and won’t reach the low temperatures required to cool the fridge/freezer. it IS possible to design circuits for low ambient temperatures, but most manufacturers optimise their appliances for household temperatures, above about 10 degrees C, mainly to make them affordable.
I don’t think the manufacturers or retailers provide enough information about their appliances for the general public to make the right choices. BEKO seem to have understood this in offering special designs for low ambient temperatures. I agree with Washerhelp that retailers prefer the status quo and continue to profit from making call-outs that they know won’t require any fixing and which won’t be blamed on them.
My thoughts on a fix?… Don’t add light bulbs inside the appliance (seems silly to ADD heat to a device designed to extract it – although I can see how it kind of works)… Don’t add a fan heater or central heating to your garage (seems silly to heat up all that space in a cold climate in order to keep stuff cool)… BUT, maybe put a ventilated enclosure around the condenser at the rear of the appliance to limit the cold air reaching it, and remove it in the summer (ok… this might be risky and cause other problems – this is where an expert view would be of value). Maybe, if you already have an appliance designed for household temperatures, you’ll just have to bring it inside or dump it!
Any thoughts on my ramblings?
0 replies Super Freeze is designed to rapidly freeze the contents of your freezer, for example if you want to freeze a joint of beef without getting ice build up within the tissue of the beef then it is best to use the Super Freeze setting. However having it on constant will eventually make the compressor burn out, as it will be working constantly. Which model of Bosch fridge freezer is it? It isn't designed to work constant, especially not when the ambient temperatures are lower than those designed for the system. I would suggest moving the freezer to a warmer part of the house.
Super Freeze is designed to rapidly freeze the contents of your freezer, for example if you want to freeze a joint of beef without getting ice build up within the tissue of the beef then it is best to use the Super Freeze setting. However having it on constant will eventually make the compressor burn out, as it will be working constantly. Which model of Bosch fridge freezer is it? It isn’t designed to work constant, especially not when the ambient temperatures are lower than those designed for the system. I would suggest moving the freezer to a warmer part of the house.
0 replies A relative has a Bosch fridge freezer in the kitchen and the room temperature is often below 18C for weeks at a time. The instructions state that, if the room temperature drops below this level, the superfreeze switch should be switched on for 24 hours. I doscovered this when it bacame apparent that the freezer had cut out and all the contents had thawed! We turned the superfreeze switch on and the freezer kicked back into life within an hour. My question is, is it OK to leave the superfreeze switch on for several weeks continuously? The instructions seem to assume that any dip below 18C will be temporary and short-term only, which is patently ridiculous!
A relative has a Bosch fridge freezer in the kitchen and the room temperature is often below 18C for weeks at a time. The instructions state that, if the room temperature drops below this level, the superfreeze switch should be switched on for 24 hours. I doscovered this when it bacame apparent that the freezer had cut out and all the contents had thawed! We turned the superfreeze switch on and the freezer kicked back into life within an hour.
My question is, is it OK to leave the superfreeze switch on for several weeks continuously? The instructions seem to assume that any dip below 18C will be temporary and short-term only, which is patently ridiculous!
0 replies This article is so helpful, thank you! Our fridge freezer in the kitchen defrosted in late November during a prolonged cold spell that made it difficult to keep even the main living areas up to 19 degrees. The kitchen was and still is much colder, and after reading this article I suspect this is why it stopped working. We will try to improve the insulation in the kitchen and see if we can't get it working again - and hopefully have saved ourselves the cost of a new unit. Many thanks!
This article is so helpful, thank you! Our fridge freezer in the kitchen defrosted in late November during a prolonged cold spell that made it difficult to keep even the main living areas up to 19 degrees. The kitchen was and still is much colder, and after reading this article I suspect this is why it stopped working. We will try to improve the insulation in the kitchen and see if we can’t get it working again – and hopefully have saved ourselves the cost of a new unit. Many thanks!
0 replies Hi everyone I wish I had found this thread last winter and it may have saved me money. My old fridge freezer worked pefectly in my garage until last year when the temp. dropped. (we have had mild winters before that) I thought it had just packed up so dashed out and bought another one ( old one worked fine after cold spell) which worked fine until this last cold spell. I have had to taken the newest one out of my garage and I now have it in my dining room. Looking at all your comments which were extremely informative and helpful I now know the problem and it looks like I will have to invest in a seperate Beko freezer for my garage and buy a fridge which I have room for in a walk in cupboard. More money! I hope that will solve my problem for next winter as the winters seem to be getting colder here. Thanks once again.
Hi everyone I wish I had found this thread last winter and it may have saved me money. My old fridge freezer worked pefectly in my garage until last year when the temp. dropped. (we have had mild winters before that) I thought it had just packed up so dashed out and bought another one ( old one worked fine after cold spell) which worked fine until this last cold spell. I have had to taken the newest one out of my garage and I now have it in my dining room. Looking at all your comments which were extremely informative and helpful I now know the problem and it looks like I will have to invest in a seperate Beko freezer for my garage and buy a fridge which I have room for in a walk in cupboard. More money! I hope that will solve my problem for next winter as the winters seem to be getting colder here. Thanks once again.
0 replies As a final practical comment from myself, I am pleased to confirm that the Beko combi-fridge freezer that I bought through Currys in June is still working quite happily in my garage even though the recent cold snap has meant the temperature in there has hovered pretty much around freezing for the last few days.
As a final practical comment from myself, I am pleased to confirm that the Beko combi-fridge freezer that I bought through Currys in June is still working quite happily in my garage even though the recent cold snap has meant the temperature in there has hovered pretty much around freezing for the last few days.
0 replies To all of you who have stuck with this thread, especially "Washerhelp" & "David Penn"/"Eileen"... A great big thank you. Do you know I've transported my 18 month old Zanussi from Bournemouth to my birth place in Gloucestershire (to see a trusted repair shop) to have it looked at. To be told that there is nothing wrong with it, for me to take it all the way back down to Bournemouth only for it to fail again and ruin another freezer compartment full of food! I feel pretty let down by the sales people at Comet and even more of an idiot for not really getting in amongst the finer details myself (i was a mechanical engineer in the army for many years & should know better!) :-) Cheers
To all of you who have stuck with this thread, especially “Washerhelp” & “David Penn”/”Eileen”… A great big thank you.
Do you know I’ve transported my 18 month old Zanussi from Bournemouth to my birth place in Gloucestershire (to see a trusted repair shop) to have it looked at. To be told that there is nothing wrong with it, for me to take it all the way back down to Bournemouth only for it to fail again and ruin another freezer compartment full of food!
I feel pretty let down by the sales people at Comet and even more of an idiot for not really getting in amongst the finer details myself (i was a mechanical engineer in the army for many years & should know better!) :-)
Cheers
0 replies We moved house at the start of the summer and our fridge/freezer has had to live in a brick lean-to/ utility space. The cold snap we are currently enjoying has killed it off (it is literally freezing out there right now) and from my research - helpfully confirmed here - Beko 'frost free' seem the only safe option as a replacement. Glad I checked it out though, we could easily have wasted our money. Good article, Thanks :)
We moved house at the start of the summer and our fridge/freezer has had to live in a brick lean-to/ utility space. The cold snap we are currently enjoying has killed it off (it is literally freezing out there right now) and from my research – helpfully confirmed here – Beko ‘frost free’ seem the only safe option as a replacement. Glad I checked it out though, we could easily have wasted our money.
Good article, Thanks :)
0 replies This article was extremely helpful. I bought a 6month old Zanussi fridge/freezer and put it in my conservatory to test it for a while. I switched it on last night for the first time (frosty night and the conservatory is in the shade during the winter) and all seemed well as the motor started up and ran. When I checked it this morning the frezer would not go lower than -10c. It was cold enough to freeze my test water container but not as cold as is recommended, about -18c. I had a funny feeling that the cold room temperature in the closed off, un-heated, conservatory ( effectively it was outside temp wise) might have had something to do with it so I moved it in to the main house. I then started to do some searching on the internet and found this article; it confirmed my suspicions could be correct and, very helpfully, explained why it was happening. I had never heard of the 'climate class' before so I checked to see what it was and sure enough the minimum room temp required was 10c - much warmer than my conservatory. The fridge/freezer is now indoors and the freezer temp is down to -20c!! How cool is that - excuse the pun lol! Many thanks for taking the time to do the article.
This article was extremely helpful. I bought a 6month old Zanussi fridge/freezer and put it in my conservatory to test it for a while. I switched it on last night for the first time (frosty night and the conservatory is in the shade during the winter) and all seemed well as the motor started up and ran. When I checked it this morning the frezer would not go lower than -10c. It was cold enough to freeze my test water container but not as cold as is recommended, about -18c.
I had a funny feeling that the cold room temperature in the closed off, un-heated, conservatory ( effectively it was outside temp wise) might have had something to do with it so I moved it in to the main house. I then started to do some searching on the internet and found this article; it confirmed my suspicions could be correct and, very helpfully, explained why it was happening. I had never heard of the ‘climate class’ before so I checked to see what it was and sure enough the minimum room temp required was 10c – much warmer than my conservatory. The fridge/freezer is now indoors and the freezer temp is down to -20c!! How cool is that – excuse the pun lol!
Many thanks for taking the time to do the article.
0 replies Thanks for all your input on this.
Thanks for all your input on this.
0 replies Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have a result! The final word has arrived from Beko and pretty well matches what Eileen (#72) was told. "All products manufactures after January 2009 are suitable for the low ambient lockout, therefore all current stock will be suitable. The difference is the style of the external door, the / models have a bevelled design. The / is situated on the rating label which is found inside the cabinet on the left wall. If you wish to discuss this please call our Service Department on 0845 600 4911 and we can explain." I assume by the '/' models they mean as in '/1' or '/2'. Just remember though, it's ONLY their combi fridge-freezers and not ALL fridge freezers that work in garages and outbuildings. Do check the brochure before purchasing.
Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have a result!
The final word has arrived from Beko and pretty well matches what Eileen (#72) was told.
“All products manufactures after January 2009 are suitable for the low ambient lockout, therefore all current stock will be suitable. The difference is the style of the external door, the / models have a bevelled design. The / is situated on the rating label which is found inside the cabinet on the left wall. If you wish to discuss this please call our Service Department on 0845 600 4911 and we can explain.”
I assume by the ‘/’ models they mean as in ‘/1’ or ‘/2’.
Just remember though, it’s ONLY their combi fridge-freezers and not ALL fridge freezers that work in garages and outbuildings. Do check the brochure before purchasing.
0 replies ..and as a follow on here was the email response from Beko... "Our Fridges and Fridge Freezers will only work if the ambient temperature does not drop below 5 degrees or go above 31 degrees. On the frost free combi's any -1 or -2 models have the electronic thermostat meaning the freezer section will continue to work in ambient temperatures down to -15 Deg C. Regards Beko PLC Customer Service" The -1 or -2 designation, as I recall from last year, appears at the end of model number - as in, for example... CDA751-2F The problem you might find is that online, in shops and even on the Beko website the -1 or -2 designation always seems to be absent. I guess it'll be on the unit itself somewhere so I'll see if I can find out from Beko where to look for it. Can't see it will help much if buying online, though at least you will now know what to ask for. For a list of Bekos combi-fridge freezers that comply, go to their website and download the Brochure (not the manuals) and at least you will then know what models can be used in a garage.
..and as a follow on here was the email response from Beko…
“Our Fridges and Fridge Freezers will only work if the ambient temperature does not drop below 5 degrees or go above 31 degrees.
On the frost free combi’s any -1 or -2 models have the electronic thermostat meaning the freezer section will continue to work in ambient temperatures down to -15 Deg C.
Regards
Beko PLC Customer Service”
The -1 or -2 designation, as I recall from last year, appears at the end of model number – as in, for example…
CDA751-2F
The problem you might find is that online, in shops and even on the Beko website the -1 or -2 designation always seems to be absent.
I guess it’ll be on the unit itself somewhere so I’ll see if I can find out from Beko where to look for it. Can’t see it will help much if buying online, though at least you will now know what to ask for.
For a list of Bekos combi-fridge freezers that comply, go to their website and download the Brochure (not the manuals) and at least you will then know what models can be used in a garage.
0 replies Re David Penn's comment. We phoned Beko customer service about this, they assured us all fridge freezer + freezers will work in low temperatures BUT ONLY 2009 MODELS ONWARDS. They acknowledged online manuals needed to be updated. We bought a freezer on the strength of this, but will need to see what happens in cold weather next winter!
Re David Penn’s comment.
We phoned Beko customer service about this, they assured us all fridge freezer + freezers will work in low temperatures BUT ONLY 2009 MODELS ONWARDS. They acknowledged online manuals needed to be updated. We bought a freezer on the strength of this, but will need to see what happens in cold weather next winter!
0 replies I researched this last year when our older fridge-freezer in the garage packed up. At the time I discovered that there was no product on the market that claimed to operate if the temperature dropped to low. 5C was the best I could find. This week I decided to try again. Remarkably, Beko now seems to be the only manufacturer who claim that some of their combi-fridge freezers work in temperatures down to -15C. Their brochure states - "Operates in cold ambient temperatures down to -15C (e.g. suitable for garages)." The phrase "suitable for garages" seems definitive. However, the individual manuals still say that the models do not operate below 5C and SHOULD NOT be used in garages. Since there are now stickers on the products in Currys claiming that they will work down to -15C (which were not there last year), I am hopeful that Beko have resolved the problem but online manuals have not yet been updated. I have emailed Beko and now await a response. I will feedback here if or when I get a response.
I researched this last year when our older fridge-freezer in the garage packed up. At the time I discovered that there was no product on the market that claimed to operate if the temperature dropped to low. 5C was the best I could find.
This week I decided to try again. Remarkably, Beko now seems to be the only manufacturer who claim that some of their combi-fridge freezers work in temperatures down to -15C.
Their brochure states – “Operates in cold ambient temperatures down to -15C (e.g. suitable for garages).”
The phrase “suitable for garages” seems definitive.
However, the individual manuals still say that the models do not operate below 5C and SHOULD NOT be used in garages.
Since there are now stickers on the products in Currys claiming that they will work down to -15C (which were not there last year), I am hopeful that Beko have resolved the problem but online manuals have not yet been updated.
I have emailed Beko and now await a response. I will feedback here if or when I get a response.
0 replies Louise: If you don't want the fridge to defrost when it gets very cold make sure you can set independent temperatures for the fridge and the freezer. This information may not be available online, you may have to ask a salesman in their store - who may in turn have to ask someone else as they probably won't have heard of this issue.
Louise: If you don’t want the fridge to defrost when it gets very cold make sure you can set independent temperatures for the fridge and the freezer. This information may not be available online, you may have to ask a salesman in their store – who may in turn have to ask someone else as they probably won’t have heard of this issue.
0 replies Hi, I wondered if anybody could give me some advice about a fridge freezer that will be OK to put in my lean to, which is pretty much the same as a garage however, the temps are more extreme I think as it is boiling hot in the summer in there but freezing cold in the winter. I have read all these comments with interest, my fridge freezer I'm replacing is 2nd hand from my brother, it is pretty old but I've never had any problems with it for 6 years and have just assumed it needs replacing. I've done a lot of research on the internet, but any suggestions would be really welcomed as the currys and comet websites don't seem to be that helpful. Thanks very much Louise
Hi,
I wondered if anybody could give me some advice about a fridge freezer that will be OK to put in my lean to, which is pretty much the same as a garage however, the temps are more extreme I think as it is boiling hot in the summer in there but freezing cold in the winter.
I have read all these comments with interest, my fridge freezer I’m replacing is 2nd hand from my brother, it is pretty old but I’ve never had any problems with it for 6 years and have just assumed it needs replacing.
I’ve done a lot of research on the internet, but any suggestions would be really welcomed as the currys and comet websites don’t seem to be that helpful.
Thanks very much
Louise
0 replies The ambient temperature is just the temperature of the air in the room. I'm not aware that refrigeration appliances can tell the ambient temperature by any sensors, only that the sensor inside the fridge compartment can be affected by the ambient temperature because if the ambient temperature is below freezing it can affect the temperature inside the fridge. I'm not sure exactly how temperatures as relatively high as 12 degrees should adversely affect a freezer who's job it is to freeze food down to -18 degrees..
The ambient temperature is just the temperature of the air in the room. I’m not aware that refrigeration appliances can tell the ambient temperature by any sensors, only that the sensor inside the fridge compartment can be affected by the ambient temperature because if the ambient temperature is below freezing it can affect the temperature inside the fridge.
I’m not sure exactly how temperatures as relatively high as 12 degrees should adversely affect a freezer who’s job it is to freeze food down to -18 degrees..
0 replies As I suggested above, you need to keep "the ambient tempreature" above 12 degrees - but what IS the ambient temperature ? It's the temp around the sensor, so put a small light bulb below it to keep the *bulb* above 12 degrees..... and you just MAY be alright.
As I suggested above, you need to keep “the ambient tempreature” above 12 degrees – but what IS the ambient temperature ? It’s the temp around the sensor, so put a small light bulb below it to keep the *bulb* above 12 degrees….. and you just MAY be alright.
0 replies We have just replaced a 25 year old freezer with a new bosch freezer only.In the hand book it states should not be used with ambient temporature below 12 deg. The old freezer has worked well in the garage, we intend to put the bosch in the garage which does go down below freezing in the winter months. Are we heading for trouble or will we have to see.As its a freezer only it has only one stat.
We have just replaced a 25 year old freezer with a new bosch freezer only.In the hand book it states should not be used with ambient temporature below 12 deg. The old freezer has worked well in the garage, we intend to put the bosch in the garage which does go down below freezing in the winter months. Are we heading for trouble or will we have to see.As its a freezer only it has only one stat.
0 replies It might make it less likely to cause a problem when ambient temperatures are borderline.
It might make it less likely to cause a problem when ambient temperatures are borderline.
0 replies has anyone tried turning the themostat down so that it is closer to freezing i have seen this recomended in manufacturers books but remember if this work turn it up as the temp outside get better
has anyone tried turning the themostat down so that it is closer to freezing i have seen this recomended in manufacturers books but remember if this work turn it up as the temp outside get better
0 replies Good result Eileen. Alfie, when you say, "Some fridge/freezers don't bother measuring the temperature inside" can you elaborate? I can't imagine it being possible to keep food at specific and critical temperatures without measuring the temperature of the compartments. As we know they do sometimes design fridge-freezers with only one temperature controller in the fridge compartment but presumably they calibrate the machine so that when the fridge reaches 0 - 5 degrees the freezer will be around -18 which sounds a bit hit and miss to me and clearly there is a major flaw in that design if the fridge reaches the temperature not by its own cooling but because the ambient temperature is so cold.
Good result Eileen.
Alfie, when you say, “Some fridge/freezers don’t bother measuring the temperature inside” can you elaborate? I can’t imagine it being possible to keep food at specific and critical temperatures without measuring the temperature of the compartments.
As we know they do sometimes design fridge-freezers with only one temperature controller in the fridge compartment but presumably they calibrate the machine so that when the fridge reaches 0 – 5 degrees the freezer will be around -18 which sounds a bit hit and miss to me and clearly there is a major flaw in that design if the fridge reaches the temperature not by its own cooling but because the ambient temperature is so cold.
0 replies Common sense prevailed with the loss adjuster who has agreed the supplier will take away the new fridge freezer which will not work in our cold garage. We will have a cheque instead to enable us to buy something that will work for us. The jury's still out on what exactly that will be, but at least I don't have to take a power saw to my kitchen to make room for a fridge freezer! Thanks for all the comments
Common sense prevailed with the loss adjuster who has agreed the supplier will take away the new fridge freezer which will not work in our cold garage. We will have a cheque instead to enable us to buy something that will work for us. The jury’s still out on what exactly that will be, but at least I don’t have to take a power saw to my kitchen to make room for a fridge freezer! Thanks for all the comments
0 replies some very interesting comments ,i have the same problem and our looking for a fridge/freezer to go in the garage ,at the moment the one i have as defrosted,it is a zanussi,i used to have a old hotpoint and it worked fine.
some very interesting comments ,i have the same problem and our looking for a fridge/freezer to go in the garage ,at the moment the one i have as defrosted,it is a zanussi,i used to have a old hotpoint and it worked fine.
0 replies Alfie: I haven't investigated exactly how these combos work as I haven't done too much refrigeration. Ideally they should have not only separate stats but separate compressors too. If a fridge freezer has 2 separate stats but only one compressor then when the fridge stat says it's reached temperature it should be able to stop the refrigerant pumping through the fridge section even if the compressor is still running to cool the freezer section. Likewise if the the freezer has reached temperature and shut off the compressor but the fridge needs to switch it on then the compressor should be able to respond to the fridge thermostat without further cooling the freezer section.
Alfie: I haven’t investigated exactly how these combos work as I haven’t done too much refrigeration. Ideally they should have not only separate stats but separate compressors too.
If a fridge freezer has 2 separate stats but only one compressor then when the fridge stat says it’s reached temperature it should be able to stop the refrigerant pumping through the fridge section even if the compressor is still running to cool the freezer section.
Likewise if the the freezer has reached temperature and shut off the compressor but the fridge needs to switch it on then the compressor should be able to respond to the fridge thermostat without further cooling the freezer section.
0 replies We had an old style fridge freezer working well in our garage. Unfortunately it got water damaged after a burst pipe in the very cold weather. Ins company have replaced it but new Hotpoint one exhibits the problems others have mentioned - freezer defrosting etc. We can't put it in kitchen unless we remove units etc. If we had separate appliances would either of them work in the garage, which does get very cold in winter? Reading Beko's website is confusing their general refrigeration leaflet clearly states all their fridge freezers will work down to -16c but manuals for individual appliances says don't put in a garage. I think I saw a comment from someone about a Beko, but can't see it today We need to negotiate with the loss adjuster asap before we start pulling our lovely kitchen apart. HELP please!
We had an old style fridge freezer working well in our garage. Unfortunately it got water damaged after a burst pipe in the very cold weather. Ins company have replaced it but new Hotpoint one exhibits the problems others have mentioned – freezer defrosting etc.
We can’t put it in kitchen unless we remove units etc. If we had separate appliances would either of them work in the garage, which does get very cold in winter?
Reading Beko’s website is confusing their general refrigeration leaflet clearly states all their fridge freezers will work down to -16c but manuals for individual appliances says don’t put in a garage. I think I saw a comment from someone about a Beko, but can’t see it today
We need to negotiate with the loss adjuster asap before we start pulling our lovely kitchen apart. HELP please!
0 replies I just experienced the thawing problem with two fridge/freezers placed in two cold rooms here, and believe I found a somewhat satisfactory solution. However, this got me thinking and I now believe the design flaw is inherent to the idea of a fridge/freezer combo, and is not solvable by introducing a second thermostat or sensor as you suggest. Let me elaborate: a fridge/freezer combination is sold as a device having two functional units, namely an upper freezer compartment where goods can be frozen to say -18C maximum, and a lower, larger compartment where goods are kept chilled at say +5C maximum, but NEVER below 0C for obvious reasons. Therefore, the designer of the appliance relies on 1) the active cooling element in the freezer compartment, 2) some calculated amount of thermal transmission between the freezer and fridge sections (airflow and separation/insulation between the sections) and lastly 3) a temperature differential created and maintained between the two sections (23C in our example). In order to maintain that temperature differential, the warming effect induced by the surrounding ambient through the less-than-perfectly insulating walls and doors comes into play. The warmer the ambient, the higher the temperature differential. Conversely, in a cold ambient, its warming effect is less pronounced and therefore the temperature difference between freezer and fridge section will be reduced. As ambient temperature drops, the combo will eventually find itself in a tight spot. With two separate thermostats as you suggest, the appliance would face a dilemma when the ambient is say +5C with a resulting temperature differential of say 15C: It could either a) "listen" to the freezer thermostat to keep that section at or below -18C, and see the fridge section go to -3C with damage to food in that section; or it could "listen" to the fridge thermostat (as most combos do) to keep that section near +5C and thus turn the cooling element off, with damage to the food in the freezer section. There is no obvious answer, it looks like the problem is inherent in the product idea of a combo. PS congratulations for a very informative website!
I just experienced the thawing problem with two fridge/freezers placed in two cold rooms here, and believe I found a somewhat satisfactory solution. However, this got me thinking and I now believe the design flaw is inherent to the idea of a fridge/freezer combo, and is not solvable by introducing a second thermostat or sensor as you suggest.
Let me elaborate: a fridge/freezer combination is sold as a device having two functional units, namely an upper freezer compartment where goods can be frozen to say -18C maximum, and a lower, larger compartment where goods are kept chilled at say +5C maximum, but NEVER below 0C for obvious reasons.
Therefore, the designer of the appliance relies on 1) the active cooling element in the freezer compartment, 2) some calculated amount of thermal transmission between the freezer and fridge sections (airflow and separation/insulation between the sections) and lastly 3) a temperature differential created and maintained between the two sections (23C in our example).
In order to maintain that temperature differential, the warming effect induced by the surrounding ambient through the less-than-perfectly insulating walls and doors comes into play. The warmer the ambient, the higher the temperature differential. Conversely, in a cold ambient, its warming effect is less pronounced and therefore the temperature difference between freezer and fridge section will be reduced. As ambient temperature drops, the combo will eventually find itself in a tight spot.
With two separate thermostats as you suggest, the appliance would face a dilemma when the ambient is say +5C with a resulting temperature differential of say 15C: It could either a) “listen” to the freezer thermostat to keep that section at or below -18C, and see the fridge section go to -3C with damage to food in that section; or it could “listen” to the fridge thermostat (as most combos do) to keep that section near +5C and thus turn the cooling element off, with damage to the food in the freezer section.
There is no obvious answer, it looks like the problem is inherent in the product idea of a combo.
PS congratulations for a very informative website!
0 replies I see that problem is much more complicated. As far as I know, for new generation of the fridge-freezer a R600a refrigerant is in use instead the previous one. I have myself old type of freezer that works well even in lower temperatures (close to 0) and a new (4y) fridge that had to be adjusted by serviceman to new untypical for this model ambient condition. I need not add that I was aware of loosing of guaranty. Now I am looking for one fridge-freezer and find out problem. Neither technical adviser representing of recognized companies on European market nor serviceman in my country , do not share yours views. Independent of fact one or two thermostats for one compressor only. I do not know, maybe this is just carefulness only to avoid claims basis. It would be nice to have a statement of product designers and to know what for they provide climatic classes restriction even for two thermostats product if you are right. Is it a good question? I would like to use appliance in lower temperature than 10 C (limited by class SN) without any restriction and serviceman objection if something is wrong with my fridge-freezer work
I see that problem is much more complicated. As far as I know, for new generation of the fridge-freezer a R600a refrigerant is in use instead the previous one. I have myself old type of freezer that works well even in lower temperatures (close to 0) and a new (4y) fridge that had to be adjusted by serviceman to new untypical for this model ambient condition. I need not add that I was aware of loosing of guaranty. Now I am looking for one fridge-freezer and find out problem. Neither technical adviser representing of recognized companies on European market nor serviceman in my country , do not share yours views. Independent of fact one or two thermostats for one compressor only. I do not know, maybe this is just carefulness only to avoid claims basis. It would be nice to have a statement of product designers and to know what for they provide climatic classes restriction even for two thermostats product if you are right. Is it a good question?
I would like to use appliance in lower temperature than 10 C (limited by class SN) without any restriction and serviceman objection if something is wrong with my fridge-freezer work
0 replies I would like to add that many appliances do work perfectly well inside garages where the temperature drops regularly below that stated in the climate class and people are generally aware of this. I myself have a separate freezer which works fine in winter even when the pipes to the washing machine froze up. It has a defrost warning which triggers an alarm if the food ever partially defrosts which has never triggered. I also have a separate fridge in the same place which appears to work OK although we use it only to store drinks. I've seen many chest freezers work happily for many years in garages all over the place. It's just some modern fridge freezers have started to be produced with only one stat in the fridge causing this problem and customers who know from evidence they've seen that refrigeration appliances generally work fine in a garage shouldn't be expected to be aware that there are some designs that will defrost frozen food because they don't have a proper sensor controlling the freezer section - presumable merely to save money?
I would like to add that many appliances do work perfectly well inside garages where the temperature drops regularly below that stated in the climate class and people are generally aware of this. I myself have a separate freezer which works fine in winter even when the pipes to the washing machine froze up. It has a defrost warning which triggers an alarm if the food ever partially defrosts which has never triggered.
I also have a separate fridge in the same place which appears to work OK although we use it only to store drinks. I’ve seen many chest freezers work happily for many years in garages all over the place.
It’s just some modern fridge freezers have started to be produced with only one stat in the fridge causing this problem and customers who know from evidence they’ve seen that refrigeration appliances generally work fine in a garage shouldn’t be expected to be aware that there are some designs that will defrost frozen food because they don’t have a proper sensor controlling the freezer section – presumable merely to save money?
0 replies Yes Jan. Even if the temperature dropped below freezing it shouldn't affect a separate freezer unit or the freezer part of a combined fridge-freezer with its own separate thermostat because freezers keep the compressor running until the temperature inside reaches -18 degrees.
Yes Jan. Even if the temperature dropped below freezing it shouldn’t affect a separate freezer unit or the freezer part of a combined fridge-freezer with its own separate thermostat because freezers keep the compressor running until the temperature inside reaches -18 degrees.
0 replies If I understand fridge-freezer will work properly in the low ambient temp (plus 4 and higher) when one compressor and two independent thermostats are designed. One for each compartment provide adequate signals for right operation in freezer as well as in fridge
If I understand fridge-freezer will work properly in the low ambient temp (plus 4 and higher) when one compressor and two independent thermostats are designed. One for each compartment provide adequate signals for right operation in freezer as well as in fridge
0 replies Many thanks for your update Andy. I've been waiting for examples of how people have got on when dealing with this issue - successful or not. I think it shows retailers can't really argue with the logic and the the facts you described. There's no doubt that engineers and service departments of the major retailers and manufacturers all know of this issue and come across it all the time. Either they don't tell the retailing departments, or they do, but the retailers don't advise their sales staff. Either way it's common sense to say they should start finding out exactly which models of refrigeration appliance will not work properly in a garage when it gets very cold and make sure they don't sell those models to anyone planning on installing one in a garage. I don't believe any sales person would deliberately sell one of these products to someone knowing it will not work. The most likely explanation is they simply haven't been told about the issue. I suspect the reasons why they don't get told is that when people find out about the issue via an engineer most must somehow either blame themselves and just accept that they've learnt a hard and expensive lesson or feel angry about it but don't complain to the people they bought it from. I think retailers have to a great extent been shielded from consequences so they haven't needed to change their practices.
Many thanks for your update Andy. I’ve been waiting for examples of how people have got on when dealing with this issue – successful or not. I think it shows retailers can’t really argue with the logic and the the facts you described.
There’s no doubt that engineers and service departments of the major retailers and manufacturers all know of this issue and come across it all the time. Either they don’t tell the retailing departments, or they do, but the retailers don’t advise their sales staff.
Either way it’s common sense to say they should start finding out exactly which models of refrigeration appliance will not work properly in a garage when it gets very cold and make sure they don’t sell those models to anyone planning on installing one in a garage.
I don’t believe any sales person would deliberately sell one of these products to someone knowing it will not work. The most likely explanation is they simply haven’t been told about the issue.
I suspect the reasons why they don’t get told is that when people find out about the issue via an engineer most must somehow either blame themselves and just accept that they’ve learnt a hard and expensive lesson or feel angry about it but don’t complain to the people they bought it from. I think retailers have to a great extent been shielded from consequences so they haven’t needed to change their practices.
0 replies Just an update and a success (although tainted a little). Since we had a new fridge/freezer we got our supplier on the goods not being fit for use. The points we made were: 1. No-one asked us where we were going to keep it (bad sales) and they knew the problem existed. 2. When they installed it on 23/12 in a cold area nothing was said other than "there you go mate". After a great deal of arguing they agreed to take it back -20% restocking fee. A tainted victory but it is better than having a fridge / freezer that doesn't work for a good few months of the year. Good luck to anyone else trying to get justice.
Just an update and a success (although tainted a little). Since we had a new fridge/freezer we got our supplier on the goods not being fit for use. The points we made were:
1. No-one asked us where we were going to keep it (bad sales) and they knew the problem existed.
2. When they installed it on 23/12 in a cold area nothing was said other than “there you go mate”.
After a great deal of arguing they agreed to take it back -20% restocking fee. A tainted victory but it is better than having a fridge / freezer that doesn’t work for a good few months of the year.
Good luck to anyone else trying to get justice.
0 replies Had no idea that my Beko fridge/freezer wouldnt work in the garage. I do now because Ive just had to throw away a whole freezer full of food !!!!! If the freezer section is controlled by the thermostat in the fridge, if you rigged the fridge so that the interior lamp stayed on when the door was closed, would this generate enough heat within the fridge compartment to kick the thermostat into working ??? Or am I talking out of my bottom ?? Thanks Martin
Had no idea that my Beko fridge/freezer wouldnt work in the garage. I do now because Ive just had to throw away a whole freezer full of food !!!!!
If the freezer section is controlled by the thermostat in the fridge, if you rigged the fridge so that the interior lamp stayed on when the door was closed, would this generate enough heat within the fridge compartment to kick the thermostat into working ??? Or am I talking out of my bottom ??
Thanks
Martin
0 replies Kirstie: If the freezer is defrosting because it's too cold and has this design "fault" then raising the temperature will stop it happening. The electric heater is going to cost you though if you need to run it all the time when it gets cold. Obviously you would need some form of heating with a thermostat. Alternatively you could consider claiming that the fridge freezer is not fit for the purpose it was bought for because it defrosts when the weather gets very cold and you have only installed it in your home. You have up to 5 or 6 years to make a claim Consumer Rights Act 2015 gives us 6 years to claim for faulty appliances However, it's highly unlikely any retailer will accept this and will just fob you off. You would need to be prepared to take them to the small claims court.
Kirstie: If the freezer is defrosting because it’s too cold and has this design “fault” then raising the temperature will stop it happening. The electric heater is going to cost you though if you need to run it all the time when it gets cold. Obviously you would need some form of heating with a thermostat.
Alternatively you could consider claiming that the fridge freezer is not fit for the purpose it was bought for because it defrosts when the weather gets very cold and you have only installed it in your home. You have up to 5 or 6 years to make a claim Consumer Rights Act 2015 gives us 6 years to claim for faulty appliances
However, it’s highly unlikely any retailer will accept this and will just fob you off. You would need to be prepared to take them to the small claims court.
0 replies What a pain this is...last winter we went to visit parents at Christmas and freezer bit of fridge freezer (Zanussi, less than 2 years old) obv not worked as food not frozen, grrrrr. This year, same thing again, double grrrr as got 2 small children and I like to freeze meals for them...along with all the usual suspects. We have a very small kitchen so moving it is not an option, sorry, its in a cold utility room...would putting one of those electric fan heaters make it work? I can afford to bin another load of food... Thanks!
What a pain this is…last winter we went to visit parents at Christmas and freezer bit of fridge freezer (Zanussi, less than 2 years old) obv not worked as food not frozen, grrrrr. This year, same thing again, double grrrr as got 2 small children and I like to freeze meals for them…along with all the usual suspects. We have a very small kitchen so moving it is not an option, sorry, its in a cold utility room…would putting one of those electric fan heaters make it work? I can afford to bin another load of food…
Thanks!
0 replies Nutella: The problem isn't the design of the thermostat but the fact they are saving money only fitting one thermostat to control two totally different environments - one needing to be between 0 and 5 degrees and the other needing to be -18 degrees. I don't understand how anyone thought that was a sensible idea. However, they seem to just about work as long as the temperature isn't cold enough to cause the fridge thermostat to shut off and stay off for a prolonged period such as when sited in a garage. I personally feel there is a legitimate argument for saying that fridge freezers controlled by only one thermostat (or sensor) inside the fridge are not fit for purpose when they stop functioning properly and allow frozen meat to partially defrost if the temperature drops below 16 degrees (or 14 or 10 depending on the climate class rating). I say this because in very cold spells (such as now) the temperature in someone's kitchen could easily drop and remain below 14 degrees if the heating breaks down, or if they are taking a winter vacation and the heating is left off - or only on frost setting (which only maintains a temperature of around 6 degrees). As it happens my father and mother in law have just returned from Spain where they've spent the last month. Like many pensioners they do this every year and the leave the heating off. During the last several days the temperature in their kitchen is likely to have dropped well below the 14, 12 or 10 degrees stated in the climate class so if they had an affected fridge freezer their food could have partially thawed out but they would be unaware. The argument about having design faults when installed in a garage is less clear-cut because they can say they are only designed to use in a kitchen - although this clearly isn't commonly known. However, it is commonly known to retailers all over the country that a significant proportion of their customers do install fridge-freezers in a garage - so IMO they have no excuse for selling any such appliance without inquiring where it is to be sited and advising that they are only suitable for a kitchen. Therefore you may have a good case for being misold if the problems you are having are due to the fridge freezer not being able to maintain the freezer temperature when the temperature drops. You need to test this by seeing what your local Citizens Advice Bureau says on the subject - Search for your local CAB
Nutella: The problem isn’t the design of the thermostat but the fact they are saving money only fitting one thermostat to control two totally different environments – one needing to be between 0 and 5 degrees and the other needing to be -18 degrees. I don’t understand how anyone thought that was a sensible idea.
However, they seem to just about work as long as the temperature isn’t cold enough to cause the fridge thermostat to shut off and stay off for a prolonged period such as when sited in a garage.
I personally feel there is a legitimate argument for saying that fridge freezers controlled by only one thermostat (or sensor) inside the fridge are not fit for purpose when they stop functioning properly and allow frozen meat to partially defrost if the temperature drops below 16 degrees (or 14 or 10 depending on the climate class rating).
I say this because in very cold spells (such as now) the temperature in someone’s kitchen could easily drop and remain below 14 degrees if the heating breaks down, or if they are taking a winter vacation and the heating is left off – or only on frost setting (which only maintains a temperature of around 6 degrees). As it happens my father and mother in law have just returned from Spain where they’ve spent the last month. Like many pensioners they do this every year and the leave the heating off. During the last several days the temperature in their kitchen is likely to have dropped well below the 14, 12 or 10 degrees stated in the climate class so if they had an affected fridge freezer their food could have partially thawed out but they would be unaware.
The argument about having design faults when installed in a garage is less clear-cut because they can say they are only designed to use in a kitchen – although this clearly isn’t commonly known. However, it is commonly known to retailers all over the country that a significant proportion of their customers do install fridge-freezers in a garage – so IMO they have no excuse for selling any such appliance without inquiring where it is to be sited and advising that they are only suitable for a kitchen. Therefore you may have a good case for being misold if the problems you are having are due to the fridge freezer not being able to maintain the freezer temperature when the temperature drops.
You need to test this by seeing what your local Citizens Advice Bureau says on the subject – Search for your local CAB
0 replies When banks and credit card companies mis-sold Payment Protection Insurance, thousands of people complained and successfully reclaimed their money. I was mis-sold a fridge freezer, so I should be able to claim my money back in the same way. When the Met Office says average ambient temperature here in the UK is only 10 Deg C, we need fridge freezers which can work below that figure. Fridge freezers which cut out at 10 Deg C are not fit for purpose here in the UK. As Mike put it, manufacturers are producing the cheapest possible products. I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to find a different thermostat and make a fridge that works down to 6 Deg C!
When banks and credit card companies mis-sold Payment Protection Insurance, thousands of people complained and successfully reclaimed their money. I was mis-sold a fridge freezer, so I should be able to claim my money back in the same way.
When the Met Office says average ambient temperature here in the UK is only 10 Deg C, we need fridge freezers which can work below that figure. Fridge freezers which cut out at 10 Deg C are not fit for purpose here in the UK.
As Mike put it, manufacturers are producing the cheapest possible products. I’m sure it wouldn’t be difficult to find a different thermostat and make a fridge that works down to 6 Deg C!
0 replies Washerhelp: I'm pretty sure it's SN but there was a big sticker on the door of it to say "designed to work in temperatures down to -15. As it's in a nice cosy corner of the kitchen, I'll never find out (unless this cold spell continues any longer :-))
Washerhelp: I’m pretty sure it’s SN but there was a big sticker on the door of it to say “designed to work in temperatures down to -15. As it’s in a nice cosy corner of the kitchen, I’ll never find out (unless this cold spell continues any longer :-))
0 replies Russ_G_UK: Thanks for your input. What climate class is the Beko CDA660FS? As far as I know the lowest ambient temperature for refrigeration appliances in the UK is SN, which is only down to 10 Deg C. Kerry: If the freezer section has stopped working because it's gone so cold the fridge thermostat has shut off and stayed off (and there isn't a separate thermostat or sensor controlling the freezer section) then there's no reason why any damage should have occurred. Things should work fine again when the temperature increases. if the freezer has stopped working because of an unrelated fault though then it will still be there when the temperature increases. Mike: Many thanks for your kind comments. If your fridge freezer is affected the problem can occur if the temperature in the garage drops below either 18, 16 or 10 degrees, which even with a boiler in there I wouldn't be surprised at. Check the climate class
Russ_G_UK: Thanks for your input. What climate class is the Beko CDA660FS? As far as I know the lowest ambient temperature for refrigeration appliances in the UK is SN, which is only down to 10 Deg C.
Kerry: If the freezer section has stopped working because it’s gone so cold the fridge thermostat has shut off and stayed off (and there isn’t a separate thermostat or sensor controlling the freezer section) then there’s no reason why any damage should have occurred. Things should work fine again when the temperature increases. if the freezer has stopped working because of an unrelated fault though then it will still be there when the temperature increases.
Mike: Many thanks for your kind comments. If your fridge freezer is affected the problem can occur if the temperature in the garage drops below either 18, 16 or 10 degrees, which even with a boiler in there I wouldn’t be surprised at. Check the climate class
0 replies I tried moving my Chest freezer back into the house to see if it would work again. Although it got cold, it didn't get to freezing temperature. Regretably, I had to make a hasty purchase of a new one just before Christmas to save the food we have been preparing over the last couple of months. Hence, the old one will be on it's way to the re-cycling tip this week. I have come to the conclusion that most electrical items that we purchase these days only have a shelf life of approximately 2-3 years. I suspect that they are designed that way to keep the market alive. In the old days. one would get hold of the relevant part (a condenser in this case) and that would give another few years service. Today, we can't be bothered or the parts are so expensive, it is almost cheaper to buy new. I bought an expensive Roberts Radio for my wife a couple of years ago. The sort of thing one would treasure for many years to come. Having developed a serious fault yesterday, it will follow the freezer to the graveyard. On the positive side, though, it does mean that we get new, up-to-date kit, even if we have to pay for it!
I tried moving my Chest freezer back into the house to see if it would work again. Although it got cold, it didn’t get to freezing temperature. Regretably, I had to make a hasty purchase of a new one just before Christmas to save the food we have been preparing over the last couple of months. Hence, the old one will be on it’s way to the re-cycling tip this week.
I have come to the conclusion that most electrical items that we purchase these days only have a shelf life of approximately 2-3 years. I suspect that they are designed that way to keep the market alive. In the old days. one would get hold of the relevant part (a condenser in this case) and that would give another few years service. Today, we can’t be bothered or the parts are so expensive, it is almost cheaper to buy new. I bought an expensive Roberts Radio for my wife a couple of years ago. The sort of thing one would treasure for many years to come. Having developed a serious fault yesterday, it will follow the freezer to the graveyard.
On the positive side, though, it does mean that we get new, up-to-date kit, even if we have to pay for it!
0 replies i have two up right fridge freezers both in utility room at moment (which is so cold the toilet cistern has frozen water in it so can't flush) I know that i have same problem as everyone else on this page just need to know if i move the fridge freezers into my slightly warmer kitchen whether it will make them work again or whether they are broken beyond repair ?
i have two up right fridge freezers both in utility room at moment (which is so cold the toilet cistern has frozen water in it so can’t flush) I know that i have same problem as everyone else on this page just need to know if i move the fridge freezers into my slightly warmer kitchen whether it will make them work again or whether they are broken beyond repair ?
0 replies ahhhh help if i move my two fridge freezers into my slightly warmer kitchen will they start working again ? or are they completely broken now ?
ahhhh help if i move my two fridge freezers into my slightly warmer kitchen will they start working again ? or are they completely broken now ?
0 replies Hi, Just to add to this - we have just bought a Beko CDA660FS which is designed to work in ambient temperatures down to -15 Deg C but this wasn't the reason we bought it as it was to go into the kitchen. Our old fridge freezer has been moved from the kitchen to the garage as additional freezer space (and my beer fridge :-) ) and we are now experiencing the same problems as everybody else with the freezer stuff defrosting. Unfortunately the Beko is too tall and too new to be moved into the garage :-(. Luckily we still have a small chest freezer in the garage for now but I'm working on some way of insulating the fridge freezer to keep it's temp up so it will operate.
Hi,
Just to add to this – we have just bought a Beko CDA660FS which is designed to work in ambient temperatures down to -15 Deg C but this wasn’t the reason we bought it as it was to go into the kitchen. Our old fridge freezer has been moved from the kitchen to the garage as additional freezer space (and my beer fridge :-) ) and we are now experiencing the same problems as everybody else with the freezer stuff defrosting. Unfortunately the Beko is too tall and too new to be moved into the garage :-(. Luckily we still have a small chest freezer in the garage for now but I’m working on some way of insulating the fridge freezer to keep it’s temp up so it will operate.
0 replies It did Dave, but a little indirectly. I was trying to say I think the problem you are having may not be related to this issue because it just affects some fridge-freezers. The issue of being in a cold place is that if the air temperature of the room drops below the temperature that the thermostat inside the fridge compartment is set to, which is typically between 0 and 5 degrees C then the thermostat will cut power to the compressor and stop getting cold. This isn't a problem for the fridge compartment because it's cold (unless the temperature was to drop well below freezing in which case the food and milk could freeze). It is a problem for a fridge-freezer though if it's one that doesn't have a separate thermostat or sensor inside the freezer compartment because when the fridge thermostat stays off for several hours because it's cold enough to not need further cooling inside the fridge - the freezer section can start to warm up. If the temperature of a garage went to say -5 degrees for a couple of days and nights the fridge compartment would be cold enough to not require the compressor to run but the freezer compartment is typically set to minus 18 degrees so it might need further cooling but it can't because the only thermostat is in the fridge and it's not being triggered to run the compressor. Therefore the freezer compartment might start to get warmer and be raised up to a similar temperature to the ambient room temperature - which although -5 degrees isn't cold enough to preserve food needing to be at -18. The point I'm trying to make is that a stand alone freezer will have it's own thermostat which is set at around -18 degrees so its thermostat should only be affected by the ambient temperature of the room it's in if it dropped below -18 and even if it did it wouldn't be a problem because that's cold enough to maintain the right temperature for the food inside. As the freezer has worked ok for the last 2 years I'm speculating if it's now defrosting it shouldn't be due to the cold temperature of the room - at least not because of the issue described in this article. If by any chance it was I would expect an affected appliance to work fine if moved to a warmer place as no damage would be done.
It did Dave, but a little indirectly. I was trying to say I think the problem you are having may not be related to this issue because it just affects some fridge-freezers. The issue of being in a cold place is that if the air temperature of the room drops below the temperature that the thermostat inside the fridge compartment is set to, which is typically between 0 and 5 degrees C then the thermostat will cut power to the compressor and stop getting cold. This isn’t a problem for the fridge compartment because it’s cold (unless the temperature was to drop well below freezing in which case the food and milk could freeze).
It is a problem for a fridge-freezer though if it’s one that doesn’t have a separate thermostat or sensor inside the freezer compartment because when the fridge thermostat stays off for several hours because it’s cold enough to not need further cooling inside the fridge – the freezer section can start to warm up.
If the temperature of a garage went to say -5 degrees for a couple of days and nights the fridge compartment would be cold enough to not require the compressor to run but the freezer compartment is typically set to minus 18 degrees so it might need further cooling but it can’t because the only thermostat is in the fridge and it’s not being triggered to run the compressor. Therefore the freezer compartment might start to get warmer and be raised up to a similar temperature to the ambient room temperature – which although -5 degrees isn’t cold enough to preserve food needing to be at -18.
The point I’m trying to make is that a stand alone freezer will have it’s own thermostat which is set at around -18 degrees so its thermostat should only be affected by the ambient temperature of the room it’s in if it dropped below -18 and even if it did it wouldn’t be a problem because that’s cold enough to maintain the right temperature for the food inside.
As the freezer has worked ok for the last 2 years I’m speculating if it’s now defrosting it shouldn’t be due to the cold temperature of the room – at least not because of the issue described in this article.
If by any chance it was I would expect an affected appliance to work fine if moved to a warmer place as no damage would be done.
0 replies Thank you for your reply. However, it didn't address the issue that if I bring the freezer back into the warm, will it then work again or is it permanently damaged? I've had to buy another one now to save our Christmas fayre, but it I'd like to know anyway before it take it to the tip.
Thank you for your reply. However, it didn’t address the issue that if I bring the freezer back into the warm, will it then work again or is it permanently damaged? I’ve had to buy another one now to save our Christmas fayre, but it I’d like to know anyway before it take it to the tip.
0 replies Mrs Bishop, the problem isn't anything to do with parts on the appliance getting too cold. It's the air temperature of the room it is placed in getting too cold and causing the air temperature inside the fridge to drop low enough to turn the thermostat off - which in turn stops the freezer compartment getting colder (if the fridge freezer is operated with only one thermostat inside the fridge compartment). Nothing can be done other than to move it to a warmer place or make the room warmer. It's a design issue. You can't claim it's a design fault easily though because the appliance is designed to be used in a kitchen inside a house and states in the instruction book or on the back of the appliance the climate class The only thing you can attempt to claim is that the company that sold it to you should have asked where you were going to site the appliance and advised you either not to do it or to buy a different model that wouldn't be so affected because they should realise that it's pretty common for people to place refrigeration appliances in garages. How successful that would be is unknown as it's a grey area and only really based on common sense - not consumer law.
Mrs Bishop, the problem isn’t anything to do with parts on the appliance getting too cold. It’s the air temperature of the room it is placed in getting too cold and causing the air temperature inside the fridge to drop low enough to turn the thermostat off – which in turn stops the freezer compartment getting colder (if the fridge freezer is operated with only one thermostat inside the fridge compartment).
Nothing can be done other than to move it to a warmer place or make the room warmer. It’s a design issue. You can’t claim it’s a design fault easily though because the appliance is designed to be used in a kitchen inside a house and states in the instruction book or on the back of the appliance the climate class
The only thing you can attempt to claim is that the company that sold it to you should have asked where you were going to site the appliance and advised you either not to do it or to buy a different model that wouldn’t be so affected because they should realise that it’s pretty common for people to place refrigeration appliances in garages. How successful that would be is unknown as it’s a grey area and only really based on common sense – not consumer law.
0 replies We only bought our whirpool fridge/freezer 3 months ago, but it appears not to like the cold weather. Our older fridge/freezers have worked perfectly well situated in our lean to (even in really cold weather) but this one does not. Would it help if I lagged the bottle at the back? There is no space indoors for it, and as a family of 6 we do need to be able to use this second freezer, especially at this time of year.
We only bought our whirpool fridge/freezer 3 months ago, but it appears not to like the cold weather. Our older fridge/freezers have worked perfectly well situated in our lean to (even in really cold weather) but this one does not. Would it help if I lagged the bottle at the back? There is no space indoors for it, and as a family of 6 we do need to be able to use this second freezer, especially at this time of year.
0 replies Dave: This issue affects the fridge thermostats in fridge-freezers, which if also controlling the freezer section can shut off the appliance if the temperature gets around freezing or a little above because the thermostat inside a fridge is only set to about 1 - 5 degrees. The chances are a stand alone freezer will have it's thermostat set to -18 degrees. It's pretty unlikely your garage would get colder than that. It could just coincidentally have gone faulty.
Dave: This issue affects the fridge thermostats in fridge-freezers, which if also controlling the freezer section can shut off the appliance if the temperature gets around freezing or a little above because the thermostat inside a fridge is only set to about 1 – 5 degrees.
The chances are a stand alone freezer will have it’s thermostat set to -18 degrees. It’s pretty unlikely your garage would get colder than that. It could just coincidentally have gone faulty.
0 replies Although my Proline Chest Freezer has worked perfectly well in my garage for the last year or two, it has now started to defrost in the cold weather this year. If I bring it back into the house, warm it up and swicth it back on, will it re-freeze or is it permanently damaged? Thankyou.
Although my Proline Chest Freezer has worked perfectly well in my garage for the last year or two, it has now started to defrost in the cold weather this year. If I bring it back into the house, warm it up and swicth it back on, will it re-freeze or is it permanently damaged? Thankyou.
0 replies I think you will find that Beko make a Fridge Freezer that's suitable for garages and out buildings, I hope so as I have just bought one.
I think you will find that Beko make a Fridge Freezer that’s suitable for garages and out buildings, I hope so as I have just bought one.
0 replies More sophisticated - so they aren't as good? Doesn't make much sense does it? Further sophistication should result in working better not worse. The real reason is the manufacturer has designed the fridge-freezer with only one thermostat to control the fridge as well as the freezer section in order to save money. This system just about works as long as the ambient temperature in the room isn't cold enough to turn off the only thermostat located in the fridge. In my opinion, anyone selling a fridge freezer that can be affected by cold temperatures should have a care of duty to enquire where the appliance will be sited, and to warn it is only suitable for a kitchen. So many people have extra refrigeration appliances in garages that there's no excuse for not realising many customers will site them in a garage. I feel there's a fair chance you could argue you have been miss-sold if you buy an appliance and it doesn't work properly in the garage if the seller never mentioned this limitation. However, that's just my opinion and I'd like to know if it's ever been tested in the small claims court.
More sophisticated – so they aren’t as good? Doesn’t make much sense does it? Further sophistication should result in working better not worse.
The real reason is the manufacturer has designed the fridge-freezer with only one thermostat to control the fridge as well as the freezer section in order to save money. This system just about works as long as the ambient temperature in the room isn’t cold enough to turn off the only thermostat located in the fridge.
In my opinion, anyone selling a fridge freezer that can be affected by cold temperatures should have a care of duty to enquire where the appliance will be sited, and to warn it is only suitable for a kitchen. So many people have extra refrigeration appliances in garages that there’s no excuse for not realising many customers will site them in a garage.
I feel there’s a fair chance you could argue you have been miss-sold if you buy an appliance and it doesn’t work properly in the garage if the seller never mentioned this limitation. However, that’s just my opinion and I’d like to know if it’s ever been tested in the small claims court.
0 replies We purchased a fridge freezer in June of this year - today we have had an engineer out because the frozen food had defrosted. He explained this was because it was located in a garage. When I pointed out that our previous one had worked perfectly in the garage for over 20 years the engineer explained today's fridge freezers are more sophisticated and as a result cannot operate as well as the older models did in a garage - THAT IS THE POINT WHICH NEEDS STRESSING TO CUSTOMERS. Our son and daughter-in-law are delighted to be given a 6 months old fridge/freezer for their kitchen!!!!
We purchased a fridge freezer in June of this year – today we have had an engineer out because the frozen food had defrosted. He explained this was because it was located in a garage. When I pointed out that our previous one had worked perfectly in the garage for over 20 years the engineer explained today’s fridge freezers are more sophisticated and as a result cannot operate as well as the older models did in a garage – THAT IS THE POINT WHICH NEEDS STRESSING TO CUSTOMERS. Our son and daughter-in-law are delighted to be given a 6 months old fridge/freezer for their kitchen!!!!
0 replies Similar problem, fortunately I have two fridges, one in kitchen, one in a utility room.The utility room temperature in winter can drop to below 10c at times and the freezer section starts to defrost. Cure?- I have taken two strips of loft insulation ( the covered kind, not the messy type) and cut it to size, and stuck it to both side walls of the fridge (n.b. obviously. don't cover the back) This helps to keep the outer walls of the fridge just warm enough so the thermostat keeps working correctly and freezer stays at the right temperature. Try and situate the fridge in the least coldest part too, not next to an outer wall. If the floor is concrete or tiled, try placing the fridge on a piece of thick contiboard or plywood, cut to size. Although it has worked for me, I stress that my utility room rarely drops much below 10c in winter. Whether this remedy will work at a much lower temperature than 10c I do not know, but it's worth giving it a try.
Similar problem, fortunately I have two fridges, one in kitchen, one in a utility room.The utility room temperature in winter can drop to below 10c at times and the freezer section starts to defrost. Cure?-
I have taken two strips of loft insulation ( the covered kind, not the messy type) and cut it to size, and stuck it to both side walls of the fridge (n.b. obviously. don’t cover the back) This helps to keep the outer walls of the fridge just warm enough so the thermostat keeps working correctly and freezer stays at the right temperature. Try and situate the fridge in the least coldest part too, not next to an outer wall. If the floor is concrete or tiled, try placing the fridge on a piece of thick contiboard or plywood, cut to size. Although it has worked for me, I stress that my utility room rarely drops much below 10c in winter. Whether this remedy will work at a much lower temperature than 10c I do not know, but it’s worth giving it a try.
0 replies Nutella: SN class should work down to 10 degrees. What class is yours? It's only class N, ST & T that only work down to 16 or 18 degrees. Climate Classes for fridges, freezers and fridge-freezers
Nutella: SN class should work down to 10 degrees. What class is yours?
It’s only class N, ST & T that only work down to 16 or 18 degrees.
Climate Classes for fridges, freezers and fridge-freezers
0 replies The fridge I purchased from Comet stops working in my drafty kitchen in winter when the ambient temperature falls below 14 Deg C. Trading Standards told me fridges in the UK are expected to work down to 16 Deg C ambient but not necessarily below that. So I'm expected to use an additional heater to keep my kitchen warmer than 16 Deg C, 24 hours a day, every day from October to March, just so the fridge stays WARM enough to keep working!? Does anyone know of a manufacturer making fridges / fridge-freezers for Climate Class where minimum temerature is lower than SN, 10 Deg C-32 Deg C???
The fridge I purchased from Comet stops working in my drafty kitchen in winter when the ambient temperature falls below 14 Deg C. Trading Standards told me fridges in the UK are expected to work down to 16 Deg C ambient but not necessarily below that. So I’m expected to use an additional heater to keep my kitchen warmer than 16 Deg C, 24 hours a day, every day from October to March, just so the fridge stays WARM enough to keep working!? Does anyone know of a manufacturer making fridges / fridge-freezers for Climate Class where minimum temerature is lower than SN, 10 Deg C-32 Deg C???
I used this forum when I had problems 2 years ago and discovered then that Beko were the only company to claim their appliance would function in a garage environment. Unfortunately the Beko fridge freezer i bought then has now died. It would cost more to repair the broken compressor than buy a new identical appliance, the throw away society we live in I guess. Here’s hoping I have better luck this time around! I
Likely replying to Eileen
Hi Eileen
please forgive the question …. only two years in service ? ….. I thought Beko gave two years as a default, is the fridge freezer out of guarantee ?
Likely replying to Terry
Terry, Beko warranty is only 12 months so sadly we had no comeback with them. We did contact them to check, explained the situation in the hope of some flexibility but nothing doing! It grieved me to buy another Beko but since it is the only one which promises to work in a garage it was either that or remodel my kitchen to accommodate a fridge freezer!