I want a washing machine with a hot water valve

I still get people asking if I know of any washing machines with a hot water valve. LG are the last manufacturer I am aware of that still made them so I contacted them today (7/2/08)

After phoning LG I can confirm that at least some of their washing machines do still have a hot water valve. If a hot valve is paramount to you then check the LG brochure available on their web site LG washing machines Navigate to a model, click the “brochure” link which will download a pfd brochure.

Once open, look under the “Feature” list which is at the top and at the bottom of this list it should say “Hot & cold water inlet hose option”. If this model has one there will be a tick in the box next to it.

Before rushing off to get a washing machine with a hot valve..

Even LG said that their washing machines only use the hot water valve on washes where the final temperature is higher than the water from the hot supply such as 90 ° washes and they will not use it on 30 ° and 40 ° washes which are the ones most people use. It’s possible some may be used on a 60 ° wash but this is still unclear because most people’s hot water supply is already 60 ° and often even higher.

Most washing machines now only have a cold water valve and most people instinctively don’t like this change. We all know that washing machines use hot water so it seems crazy not to use the hot water in our homes. This apparent madness is even more annoying for people who have an environmentally friendly and economic source of hot water such as solar powered. However, there is an argument (explained in great detail on the second link below) that because modern washing machines use so little water on wash there is no need for a hot valve and it is in fact more economical to use cold fill only on 40 ° washes.

A few issues are raised by the lack of a hot water valve in modern washing machines -

Several people have asked me if you can connect an environmentally friendly and economic hot supply to the cold valve to utilise it. The short answer is no, for more details read Don’t connect the hot water supply to the cold valve on cold fill washing machine
Why are most washing machines cold fill? Should I buy a cold fill washing machine?

Some people, after reading and understanding about the cold fill issue, whilst accepting that for most people it’s either cheaper or has negligible effect, still want a washing machine with a hot water valve. This is because they either get cheap (or even free) hot water, or unlike most people they use a lot of hot washes. Even if you get free hot water though, as the link above explains, modern washing machines hardly use any water on wash. So because hot water cools in the pipes and the cold water has much greater pressure, the result is that hardly any hot water gets into a modern washing machine anyway.

The only way I would think it’s worth considering buying a hot and cold fill washing machine is if you really use a lot of 60° or 90° washes and you have a very cheap hot water supply.

NOTE:

If you do buy a washing machine purely for the hot valve you are severely limiting your choice
If it’s not a very good washing machine in other areas then the savings can easily be wiped out
If it’s unreliable or doesn’t last a reasonable length of time it would also end up costing considerably more than buying a good quality cold fill washing machine
Some Hotpoint washing machines appear to be hot and cold but they are designed for cold fill because there’s only a cold fill hose supplied and a y-piece adapter supplies both valves. I suspect this is a temporary measure and that subsequent models will just have the cold valve
A modern cold fill washing machine only uses around £30 of electricity per year (figures based on a typical family of 4 and on 10p per unit) Therefore potential savings by using a hot water supply are less than many people might assume unless you do a lot of hot washes

Written By - Washerhelp on June 28th, 2007 with 254 comments
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254 comments

Read the comments left below, please add your thoughts too (Comment box at bottom of comments)

wendy tyler-batt
#1. August 4th, 2007, at 10:59 PM.

Very helpful article. Have just purchased a Bosch washing maching and lamenting the change ie cold fill only, much longer wash time and frankly no better/not as good result as my old zanussi. However am now clearer on the benefits of a cold fill only and heartened to know that not much hot water was used direct from hot fill anyway

Richard Bell
#2. August 9th, 2007, at 2:03 PM.

Reading the article on whether there is any benefit to getting a washing machine with both hot and cold valves I conclude that there isn’t currently much benefit , but that is largely because the models with both hot and cold valves have not been properrly designed to take full advantage of the hot supply. The article explains that both valves come on and because of the greater pressure in the cold line the machine fills up with mostly cold water. This is nothing more than sloppy design. with the benefit of modern microprocessor controls it should be easy to design a machine which runs to hot for a short while (to get hot water to come through) and then measures the temperature of the hot supply, before putting in the right mix of hot and cold to get the desired wash temperature. If the manufacturers aren’t capable of designing a machine which can do that, it is a pathetic state of affairs. In these days of environmental awareness failure to do such a simple thing to save energy in millions of homes should be unthinkable. I suggest there should be a top efficiency rating which can only be awarded to machines which can do this.

Washerhelp
#3. August 14th, 2007, at 1:38 PM.

You make an interesting point Richard although I doubt it’s not done like that because they can’t, it’s more likely that it’s been looked into and decided it isn’t viable because of potential problems.

One problem is that modern washing machines only use about a bowlful of water on wash. By the time many gravity-fed hot water systems actually send hot water through to the washing machine the washer would have taken in 2 or 3 times more water than it needed. For example in my own kitchen, if I turn on the hot water tap it takes over a minute for proper hot water to start running out due to the long run and low pressure.

A washing machine would have to fill with hot water and keep it running until it detects hot water, it would then need to pump out all the water drawn in so far which would be wasteful. Then it would have to use sophisticated electronics and sensors to allow in a perfect combination of hot and cold. However, washing machines don’t normally want to start at the right temperature, washing with biological detergents for example is better when the temperature starts cold and gradually heats up. Some programs for example don’t heat the water up at first, or heat it up only a little before washing for a set time in just warm water to allow the detergent to work. Finally, biological enzymes are killed off when the water reaches over 40 degrees so starting at 60 degrees by letting in the correct mix of hot and cold water would affect the efficientcy of washing using biological detergents.

Paul Fielding
#4. August 17th, 2007, at 2:20 PM.

Really good advice from someone who wants it made simple!
We are a family who can’t use biological poweder for allergy reasons. Therefore the use of a cold fill only machine will be less of a benefit. However, as is pointed out, there arn’t many hot/cold fill about. also our washing machine is position a good distance away from the hot water tank, so I suspect that hot water rarely makes it to the machine during a fill.

Andrew Clark
#5. August 26th, 2007, at 1:32 PM.

Why has nobody mentioned the fact that if you “draw off” hot water using a tap beside the washing machine you can get “instant” hot water to your hot-fill. I have been doing this for years – now that all my hot water is heated by a crabon-neutral energy source (either wood or solar) I feel it is even more energy efficient.
As for water consumption, my house has a secondary return pipe on the hot water circuit with a temperature sensor fitted to the pump so that it only switches on when you turn a hot water tap on – you than turn the tap off, wait 5-10 minutes while the water circulates, then turn it on again, by which time the hot water only has ashort distance to travel and you don’t waster much down the drain.
However, I have been interested to read about the pros of cold fill only, especially the arguments about such a small volume of water being used anyway and the possibly improved wash performance? Also, I was dismayed to read that washing machines with hot and cold fill don’t use the hot wate very efficiently.
So would I be better off going for a hot and cold machine while they’re still available or going for a high-efficiency cold fill only machine? I am still minded to get an LG with hot and cold fill… comments please?

Washerhelp
#6. August 27th, 2007, at 12:59 PM.

Thanks for your comments Andrew. Drawing off hot water from a nearby tap would introduce hot water into the washing machine quicker. There’s the potential that many people would waste this water by just letting it run down the sink, and I would think only a small minority of people are likely to be happy to do that too. You also need a hot tap close by. My washing machine for example is in the garage and there’s no way any hot water is going to get into it.

There are many examples like yourself where you are keen to use hot water and have an environmentally friendly hot water supply that you want to utilise – which is why I wrote the article. The problem is that manufacturers design for the masses and the majority of people in the UK aren’t affected by a lack of hot water valve.

Buying a hot and cold fill washing machine specifically because you either use a lot of hot washes or you have a free or cheap supply of hot water is definitely an option albeit a restricted one. To my knowledge, LG are the most viable hot and cold fill washing machine to go for.

I’m instinctively cautious about choosing a product based on one criteria that only a minority of manufacturers make because it means that you could be compromising elsewhere. These other compromises could end up wiping out the advantages you were seeking. An example of this would be buying a budget washing machine, or one with a poor reliability reputation just because it’s one of the only washing machines with a hot valve – but the washing machine is more expensive to run, or uses much more water, or breaks down too often, doesn’t last very long etc. – all of which end up costing more than if you’d just bought a cold fill washing machine that’s cheap to run and reliable. My point is that if you think it’s a good idea, consider going for one but make sure it doesn’t let you down elsewhere. LG are reasonably reliable with average reliability according to Which?

( Research washing machine reliability and reviews – Which? Online 30 Day free trial )

Andrew Clark
#7. August 27th, 2007, at 2:20 PM.

Thanks for the quick response, Andy. It at least confirms that my ideas are reasonably sound – and I like the LG machines anyway so I will probably go for one (before they delete their hot and cold fill arrangement from their range!)

Rob Beadle
#8. September 10th, 2007, at 11:19 PM.

Thanks for the advice on this. Whilst my current machine does use the hot water valve (and because all of the washing is undertaken in quick succession, the hot pipe does actually get hot and used) your advice on the demise of the hot water valve is far better understood than the

“Why have all the machines only a cold water inlet?” “Dunno”
“Do you have any machines with a hot water inlet?” “Dunno”
“Can you still get machines with a hot inlet?” “Dunno”

conversation I had with the salesperson at my local electrical store earlier this evening!

Rob

Maxine
#9. November 3rd, 2007, at 9:49 PM.

I absolutely hate my cold fill Hotpoint which has been nothing but trouble, even though I’ve alsways used Hotpoint in the past, this will be the last, unless they greatly improve. It won’t rinse soapowder away other than with water boiled from the kettle, so I’ve had to reluctantly switch to liquid or tablets and it has a horrible black sludge inside the top of the soap dispenser drawer housing and on the inside of the rubber seal around the drum. The engineer, on one of his countless visits tells me that this is a problem which is common with Hotpoint machines since they changed to cold fill. The washing never smells clean and certainly never seems as clean. I ahave had it 2 years and although it still works I am currently looking for a new HOT FILL model.

Washerhelp
#10. November 5th, 2007, at 12:56 PM.

Hello Maxine: The problems you describe shouldn’t be caused by a lack of a hot water valve. I’m not trying to defend Hotpoint, personally I wouldn’t buy one, but the problems you describe sound like they could occur even with a different washing machine. Not having a hot valve shouldn’t make any difference. In fact you should be better off because cold water pressure is almost always a lot greater than hot water pressure – therefore a cold fill washing machine should flush the detergent into the drum better than one that uses hot water.

Almost all washing machines are cold fill only now including ones costing over a thousand pounds by people who make the best washing machines available. Your problem is more likely to be caused by low water pressure as it clearly isn’t strong enough to wash the detergent down properly. Low water pressure can also cause the water valve to not shut off 100% and a very small amount of water can seep through constantly if the tap is left on all the time. This can cause the black sludgy mess you describe.

Make sure that the tap is turned on fully for the washing machine and make sure the fill hose hasn’t been kinked somehow. You could also try removing the soap dispenser and observing where the water comes in over a few minutes. If there is a small drop of water that occasionally drips it could be that the water valve isn’t shutting off properly. If so it may need replacing or at least you should turn the tap off when you’ve finished washing (if it is accessible of course)

Finally you may find the following article of use where I describe causes of black slime, grease and mould on washing machines which is caused by using low temperature washes all the time and using detergent that doesn’t contain any bleaching agents – Washing machine smells – causes of grease, slime and black mould inside washing machines

Mr Webb
#11. November 15th, 2007, at 8:08 PM.

Large families do not have the time 7 days a week to wait for modern slow machines to wash everyones clothes etc.

Robert bryden
#12. December 6th, 2007, at 2:25 AM.

Live in high rise flats and cold fill only washing machine does not give enough water pressure to run machine.Wear can i purchase hot/cold machines

Washerhelp
#13. December 6th, 2007, at 11:48 AM.

Hello Robert. I mention in the first paragraph that LG still made washing machines with hot valves but their latest ones may not so you need to double check first.

Mind you, I don’t understand how a hot water valve would help to be honest. If the cold water pressure isn’t high enough and needs the hot water valve to help fill quickly enough on wash then you should still have problems with timing out on rinses when only the cold valve is available.

Zanussi are quite forgiving on filling times if you have low water pressure and I’ve been told that Electrolux washing machines will operate on .5 bar although it depends how low your pressure is as to whether it would still be enough.

Maxine
#14. December 22nd, 2007, at 9:39 PM.

Thanks for the response, I can report that as of tonight and at just 27 months old, it has finally given up the ghost. Rather than pay for the call out/parts bill, I will probably look for a new machine, as I hate it anyway. With the problem you describe re the water pressure(although my old one didn’t have the same problem), are there any particularly good washers designed for this problem. Regarding the sludge, I have checked the valve, as you suggest, and all seems ok, and, since advised to do so by the repair man, have run a maintenance wash regularly, along with scrubbing inside the drawer and spooning out the gunk, inside the rubber seal. I can only conclude that the current machine is rubbish. The problem is that they always seem to go at the most inconvenient times(Saturday night, 2 days before Christmas) and living with 3 Rugby playing boys, a replacement is needed asap, not leaving much time to consider the choice of replacement machine thoroughly!!

Washerhelp
#15. December 23rd, 2007, at 2:06 PM.

Maxine: Zanussi and Electrolux are reportedly a bit more forgiving with low water pressure. I’ve been advised by Electrolux that they will work with half a bar whereas some need 1 bar.

jools
#16. December 30th, 2007, at 10:29 AM.

I need a new machine as my old servis has just about had it. The machine is hot/cold fill can I use my current cold fill pipe on a new machine, are they universal fittings? the pipes are only a year old and put on when i had a new kitchen fitted, i don’t want to mess about with the plumbing as it is excellent no leaks and i woyld like to keep it like this

Austin Milligan
#17. December 30th, 2007, at 6:00 PM.

Why don’t I just blank off the hot water supply line and use a cold fill only. My present machine has a hot & cold fill but your argument would suggest that I would be better off with cold fill.

If I did this would it harm the machine…Bosch maxx

Washerhelp
#18. December 31st, 2007, at 1:33 PM.

Jools: Yes, they are all universal. If your taps are the type with the red and blue plastic levers to turn them off and on it is safer to cap off the old hot water valve though.

You should be able to buy a screw-on cap from a plumbers merchant (or maybe a DIY store) to seal off the hot valve.

In theory, leaving the hot tap turned off and unused should be fine but those common taps are prone to getting accidentally knocked and allowing water to leak out. I’ve heard of cases where the lever’s been knocked inside the cupboard or even by the washing machine moving about on spin if fitted behind it causing floods.

Washerhelp
#19. December 31st, 2007, at 2:36 PM.

Austin:

Some people do use a hot and cold fill washing machine as a cold fill washing machine when they don’t have a hot water tap supply available as described here Washing machine is a hot and cold fill, but I only have a cold water supply

Doing so on purpose, by disconnecting the hot valve is an interesting idea. It could be done as described in the article as long as the hot valve was supplied with cold water. However, it’s hard to see it being an advantage for most people.

If you are one of the majority of people in the UK that the manufacturers claim hardly gets any hot water in their washing machine anyway due to long pipe runs, cooling in the pipes and low hot water pressure from gravity fed hot water tanks (as described in my article), you shouldn’t notice much if any difference at all. It shouldn’t be drastically different in energy consumption or even wash times ( the biggest cause of long wash times these days is the energy label ratings – Wash Times Too Long?, Reasons why ) These of course are the manufacturer’s arguments about cold fill being better.

However, if you are one of the people who has a combination boiler, which heats water instantaneously and supplies it at mains pressure then converting to cold fill may mean a small increase in wash times on low temperature washes, and a bigger increase on times for hot washes. Energy consumption may increase slightly but manufacturers still claim it is cheaper to heat the water up inside the machine rather than externally (details in the main article)

If you have a free source of water heating or something environmentally friendly such as solar powered heating then losing the hot valve could have more impact . Converting to cold fill may mean more energy costs. But again, if the cheap or even free hot water is supplied via a gravity fed tank at low pressure, and / or there is a long uninsulated pipe run to the washing machine where the water rapidly cools then you are hardly getting any of this hot water into the washing machine anyway. Unless you run the tap near the washing machine for a minute or so to get the hot water to the machine quicker (which in itself is wasting water) you are hardly ustilising the hot water anyway.

This is because hardly any water is used on wash these days and by the time most people’s hot water starts to run into the washing machine it’s too late – the washer has already filled to level with cold.

Chris
#20. January 4th, 2008, at 12:49 AM.

I too am looking for a good HOT & COLD FILL washer/dryer. I want what I want, not what is currently available.

G. Bruce
#21. January 4th, 2008, at 10:10 PM.

Interesting article on just cold fill inlet on modern machines. I was thinking that hot fill could still be useful if somehow the incoming water temperature could be sensed with the appropriate program.

Also the temperature of the initial incoming water flow via the hot intake, is a lot warmer than the outside temperature of incoming cold flow, especially in the winter when it could be as low as two degrees if the intake is near the stop cock.

I would think that the two above combinations would save even more energy more energy, of course there is the extra cost of manufacture involved.

Washerhelp
#22. January 8th, 2008, at 4:04 PM.

G. Bruce: (21. January 4th, 2008)

I remember such a washing machine in the 1980s (I think it was by a German company like Bekay Bauknecht). They used to have a sensor on the hot water intake side which allowed a controlled mix of hot and cold water. It never caught on though.

The reason such a system is impractical now is the same reason washing machine manufacturers give for abandoning the hot valve. In the majority of cases, it takes too long for proper hot water to start running into a washing machine (due to long pipe runs and the ubiquitous hot water cylinder in most UK homes which causes rapid cooling of the water and low water pressure) By the time proper hot water starts to run (in most cases) the washer has stopped filling because there’s enough water already in.

They would say it’s too complex a system for something that in most cases would not utilise any hot water. They could design a system to work optimally in any situation but they currently see it as too complex for little gain. They all seem to have decided that it’s much simpler to just fill with cold and heat up only the exact amount required. They would say that overall, cold water fill washing machines save more energy when all energy used is taken as a whole throughout the country – even if there are a minority of people who would be better off with a hot valve fitted. The reasons for this are (hopefully) explained in my articles.

Aslan
#23. February 11th, 2008, at 1:27 AM.

Hi,

Interesting and enlightening reading.

I have a new Hotpoint machine, and on reading the above am a little concerned about how it will perform!

Anyway, it is a cold fill only machine according to the manual, but has both hot and cold inlets on the back. It’s been supplied with a Y-connector hose to connect to a cold supply.

The question I have is the hose is not long enough, and the old hoses I have (which are long enough) are separate for my old hot and cold inlet machine. Can I connect these two to the hot and cold inlets on the new machine despite it being a ‘cold only’.

Will this damage the machine/thermostat in any way?

Many thanks

Washerhelp
#24. February 12th, 2008, at 11:18 AM.

Asian:

Thanks. I haven’t seen under the lid of a Hotpoint washer with the y-piece arrangement so I’m not sure how they’ve done it. The whole system is strange. I can only assume they have both valves connected together inside otherwise it wouldn’t be cold fill. If this is the case and you connected both hoses up it would waste gallons of hot water on each wash and affect rinsing efficiency by allowing hot water to go in on rinses.

You can use the y-connector to connect your old hoses instead as long as they are both in good condition and the y-piece is connected to the cold supply. Just fit your longer hoses to the y-piece and connect the y-piece to the cold tap. Then cap off the old hot tap (try a DIY store for a screw cap to close off the hot tap) to prevent leaks or even floods in the future if the hot tap starts to let water seep past or even gets accidentally knocked.

Alternatively if you bought a separate connector you could keep your original cold hose connected to the cold tap and connect the base of the y-piece to it using the small connector. Then connect the two new hoses to the Y bit and connect to the washing machine. This would work OK and extend the length of the hose reach much further. However, I wouldn’t do it unless you really need the extra length because it makes the hoses awkward to fit behind the washer neatly and without kinking. It also introduces an extra potential source of leaks because of the extra hose and connections.

cheryl
#25. February 16th, 2008, at 6:14 PM.

when we purchased a service washing for my mum she was very worried that it took 3 hours to do a 40 degree wash. If the instruction book had explained all of what you have said then my mum, who has had to phone service for them to explain all this would not have been worried. And I would not have needed to look on the this sight about the cold water fill but glad I did explains everything

Washerhelp
#26. February 17th, 2008, at 7:23 PM.

Cheryl:

3 hours is still very long. The cheaper the washing machine the more likely they will make their washes last for a ridiculous amount of time in order to get the “A” wash efficiency award. More sophisticated washing machines can achieve better results by better design. This could explain the 3 hour 40 degree wash.

Not having a hot valve shouldn’t increase wash times that much. “A” wash efficiency ratings and more economical energy and water usage account for most of the extra wash times that modern washing machines take.

wookey
#27. February 22nd, 2008, at 1:47 AM.

You mention the fact that given a low-pressure hot water feed and mains-pressure cold feed very litle hot water gets into the machine. However This would imply that machines are designed for the UK only, as most European countries have mains hot water and have had for a long time. Also mains hot water is becoming much more common over here, usually via mains pressure hot water tanks, but also via thermal stores/heat abnks where people are combining heat sources (wood-burner, solar, boilers).

I am in the process of fitting solar, will have mains hot water and have a short pipe run. It is madness that a machine can get an ‘A’ efficiency rating whilst heating up stone-cold water with expensive high-carbon electricity when there is a big tank full of low-carbon hot water available.

It seems odd that so much effort has gone into reducing water use, whilst these opportunities for energy-use reduction have been ignored. The market for solar-friendy machines is growing rapidly. I wonder which manufacturer will do something about it first?

Washerhelp
#28. February 22nd, 2008, at 2:41 PM.

Wookey:

You make some good points. When UK washing machines went over to cold fill I was told it was to bring them inline with European washing machines which had been cold fill for many years.

At the end of the day, even a free hot water supply would not be used in a modern washing machine for most people. The main argument that washing machines don’t need hot water valves any more is based on the very small amount that they take in these days and the fact that most people only use 40 and 30 degree washes.

I agree with many of the comments here that washing machines could be a bit more sophisticated in this area. As washing machines are trying to be as environmentally friendly as possible, heating water from cold when free hot water is available doesn’t seem to achieve that. The problem is that this scenario (at least for now) is relatively very rare so it’s unlikely they will develop the machines to deal with it until it starts becoming much more common. However, as environmental issues are very popular and sells products these days it might not be a bad idea for at least one pioneering manufacturer look into it.

As you say, combination boilers are becoming very common which reduces the argument about gravity fed supplies from water tanks but cooling in the pipes is still a potential problem (this brings up another question – why aren’t hot water pipes inside our houses properly insulated to reduce the effects of hot water cooling and being wasted? )

I do believe that the very small amount of water used in modern machines makes it mostly pointless trying to get hot water in even if there is a free supply. However, if doing 60 degree and 90 degree washes a free supply of hot water should be used even if it meant pumping some of the first lot of cool water away and wasting it (I’m assuming the energy savings on hot washes would cancel out the water wastage).

Colin Stone
#29. March 13th, 2008, at 6:51 PM.

This lack of hot fill is crazy. My old Bosch H & C fill uses the hot water on a 40C wash – the pipes and soap dispenser are hot. I plugged in a kwh meter and a 40 and 60C wash only used 0.25kwh – a fifth of the power quoted in the showrooms for a 60C wash. It has nothing to do with the detergents – the manufacturers just want to save money by eliminating components. H & C fill machines can always be used as cold fill – perhaps even with a switch for low temp/bio powders. People on boast who get hot water from the engine, or those with solar panels have masses of hot water. I do not need to pay to heat up more. Where is the address of the wm manufacturers association.

Suzie
#30. March 26th, 2008, at 3:22 PM.

Hi. I have a machine with hot and cold fill but I rarely, if ever, use a cycle hotter than 40 degrees. I usually turn off the red and blue taps after a washing session but I would like to know if I need to turn the red one on at all as I probably don’t use any hot water fill, just cold?

Washerhelp
#31. April 17th, 2008, at 4:14 PM.

Suzie: If you have a hot and cold fill machine you should leave the hot valve turned on as most programmes fill with hot and cold at the same time. Some programmes may not work without the hot water supply.

Suzie
#32. April 17th, 2008, at 6:42 PM.

Thank you very much for your advice.

Mark
#33. April 29th, 2008, at 8:13 AM.

Hi. I have a mains pressure hot water system that gives MORE pressure from the hot taps in my house than the cold mains water. The tank is in the garage and it is quite a short run to the washing machine. A hot and cold fill machine might be a good idea in this scenario; it would almost certainly allow hot water in before filling completely.

But that got me thinking, what about fitting a thermostatic mixer valve behind a cold fill only machine, set to say 25 degrees C. Thus on a 30 degree program, the machine would only top up the temp by the necessary 5 degrees, thus using considerably less electricity and speeding up wash times?

Unless the flaw in my theory is that the machines use HUGE quantities of rinsing waterand would waste gallons of stored hot water whilst rinsing at 25C? Anyone know roughly how much is used for rinsing?

Washerhelp
#34. April 29th, 2008, at 11:35 AM.

Mark: Modern washing machines use very little water these days. However rinsing needs to be done in cold water, I would guess the colder the better. Warm water may cause soapsuds to be reactivated apart from it being a waste.

A common misconception is that washing machines take much longer to wash these days because they are cold fill, whereas the truth is that this adds very little wash time to most washes which are commonly only 40° or less. The main reason washing machines take so long to wash is so that they achieve A wash efficiency ratings – especially as they need to use less electricity. Manufacturers need the wash water to be cold to start with because this has been proven to give much better wash results when using biological detergents.

You have to remember that any hot water drawn into a washing machine also causes a load of hot water to be drawn into the pipework between the washing machine valve and the boiler or hot water tank. In other words if a washing machine needs to take in 4 L of hot water it could result in at least double that amount been drawn into the pipework. At least the first few litres would probably be cold because they have cooled down after being left in the pipework after the last time will hot water was drawn.

Also, in the majority of houses in the UK hot water is supplied through a hot water storage tank. This means all the water that runs out of the tank into the pipes and the washing machine is replaced by stone cold water from a header tank which then needs to be heated up. The result is that due to the very small amounts of water needed in most washing machines for the wash fill it is generally much more efficient to use cold water and heat up only the amount of water the washing machine needs. Drawing it from most hot water systems is much less efficient and more wasteful in most cases.

Economy wash programmes take much longer – why?

Nitch
#35. May 11th, 2008, at 5:55 PM.

I’ve been running off the cold water in the hot water pipes (into watering cans etc for use elsewhere) until it gets warm before putting on the washing machine for years. I also switch off the cold water for the first 5 minutes, so the higher pressure doesn’t swamp the machine with cold. We have solar heated water. However, it looks like my 24 year old machine is finally giving up the ghost. I’m quite depressed to think its not worth using the free hot water if I get a new one, though I suppose the good news is that most people use much less energy to wash their clothes these days.

pachmarhi
#36. June 22nd, 2008, at 10:40 AM.

Take a look at **** They use a manual thermostatic mixing valve by the washing machine. Set valve to appropriate temp for the first five mins (while the machine fills), then turn down to minimum for cold rinsing. Seems to work. I visited them too. We plan to do that when we move.

Washerhelp
#37. June 23rd, 2008, at 2:01 PM.

pachmarhi: Couldn’t see anything on that site but spammy links and no content.

The thermostatic mixing valve can’t be used on front loading automatic washing machines in the UK effectively because by the time the mix is the right temperature the washing machine has finished filling. Also most people would find it impractical because their hot and cold pipes are behind the washing machine or under the kitchen sink cupboard.

pachmarhi
#38. June 23rd, 2008, at 11:04 PM.

Hi Washerhelp. Apologies. Seems like they have moved the site. Correct url should be http://www.theyellowhouse.org.uk/

They had a mixing valve located at counter height. While it may not suit everyone, it certainly does work for some people.

Dave
#39. July 6th, 2008, at 9:30 PM.

Very interestingreading here all round.
I have a 25 year old Hoover Electron 1100. Sadly the drum bearings are about shot and I guess I’ll have to buy new soon.
My hot water comes from solar panels and the gas boiler as backup. It’s gravity fed and the cylinder is less than 3 feet away from the washer. Since long before having solar the hot water pipe to the washer tap has been 22mm to get a good flow.
Each week I wash, on average, 3 loads – 2 “whites economy” which is hot fill ONLY (60 degree wash) and 1 “non fast coloureds” which is hot and cold fill and washes at 40 degrees. I use ecover non bio automatic powder and enjoy excellent results. The whites washes last barely 90 minutes from start to end of last spin and the non fast coloureds are generally done in under an hour. Two questions:
1) does anyone know if the LG machines (which I have researched a lot but still can’t find an answer to this question) fill with ONLY Hot on the 60 degree washes and mixed hot and cold on the 40 degree
2) can any manufacturer or government agency give a really believable explanation as to how a solar water heated hoursehold doing lots of hot washes and few cool ones can possibly be better off with cold fill only?
Incidentally my Miele dishwasher will accept hot water fill which it gets from the solar heated cylinder and the standard wash time on that went down from 2 hours nd 25 minutes when it was on the cold feed only that my old dishwasher had to 1 hour 36 minutes on hot fill – nd I saw a difference in the electricity bill straight away.
IMHO this issue is nothing at all to do with energy saving but is simply a way to avoid addressing the issue of badly thought out plumbing arrangements leading to new, low water consumption machines, failing to draw hot water from older, ill-planned, hot water supplies and silly combi boilers that take so long to fire up that they don’t supply the hot soon enough.
Look forward to any info re the LG’s please.

Washerhelp
#40. July 8th, 2008, at 10:19 AM.

I’ve spoken to LG customer services and according to the adviser i spoke to this is how LG washing machines currently utilise hot water.

(Paraphrased) “If you select a 60 degree wash the washing machine takes in hot water a bit at a time. It has a sensor in the drum that checks the temperature. If the water coming in is over 60 degrees it will take in cold instead. If it is below 60 degrees it will take it in”.

I must say that all through the conversation he sounded unsure and didn’t convince me that he was confident he was describing accurately how this works. He did confirm this is how it works but he didn’t sound sure to me.

Also, don’t forget that even if this is how they work, there is still every chance that most people would get very little hot water into the washing machine because of small amount drawn in combined with the long pipe runs and cooling in the pipework described in the main article.

Anyone who is interested in this should contact LG themselves to clarify

LG UK

I will send an email and try to get confirmation.

Sue
#41. July 9th, 2008, at 2:02 PM.

Hi there. thanks for a really useful website. I am looking for a washing machine for my small holiday cottage in a remote site with no mains electricity. We have a wind turbine (and generator which we try not to use too much) and gas heated hot water. We are just a couple so our washing needs are not huge. I was originally looking for a hot/cold fill machine but having read all this I wonder if I’d be better with a high energy performance cold fill machine. Any suggestions as to what models to look at please? (P.S. It must have one dimension which is no more than 53cms to fit through the doorway). A tall order I know but any help would be gratefully received.

Dave
#42. July 9th, 2008, at 5:02 PM.

Thanks to Washerhelp for the response – extremely useful and, if the info LG gave to you is accurate, also a very good system.

Dave

Washerhelp
#43. July 11th, 2008, at 11:13 AM.

Thanks Dave:

Sue: Sorry for a delayed response. The smallest washing machine I know of is a Zanussi with measurements of H: 670mm W: 495mm D: 515mm

I mention it on my washing machine forum Small washing machines

Sue
#44. July 13th, 2008, at 4:51 PM.

Thanks Washerhelp.

Frances
#45. July 30th, 2008, at 1:23 PM.

I have solar heating in combination with gas directly above my washing machine I need a machine with a hot fill so I can uterlise my hot water beter also I wash at 30- 40 degrees can you advise if there is any machine on the market which would fill my needs
reagards Frances

Albert
#46. July 30th, 2008, at 1:52 PM.

Hi, i have a new LGWD(M)-16331 H&C fill. Unfortunately on 60 and 90 degree washes it only draws a cup of hot from the combi and completes the wash using cold. If the hoses are reversed it still only draws the cup full and then washes in hot (thinking it is cold) if the cold is turned off it only draws the cup full then spends the rest of the cycle trying to draw cold!! I’ve written to L&G 3 times to try and find out how much hot it should draw on 60 and 90 washes for 4, 6 and 8kg loads without success. They give poor and misleading replies (as you suspected in an earlier post) and have directed me to a Government energy saving website!!! Basically LG customer service is useless so i think my next step is to go to trading standards, or are you aware of a better option? Readers should not touch an LG machine with a barge pole if you are considering it for it’s supposed H&C properties.

Washerhelp
#47. July 30th, 2008, at 2:30 PM.

Hello Francis: Yes, LG are still making washing machines with a hot valve.

Dave
#48. July 30th, 2008, at 2:45 PM.

Very interesting experience Albert. I woudl very much like to hear anything else that you find out, from whatever source. I was on the point of buying an LG, precisely for H&C fill, a few weeks ago, then I cancelled the order when the local Hoover shop (who use dto service my Hoover washer) said they woudl never recommend LG. However, when I asked them *why* they don’t recommend they could only say “it’s not a brand we stock”. Not very helpful or informative; but your experience is most enlightening.
Going off at a tangent, I notice that LG launched their steam washer a while ago and that 2 other brands (stocked by Curry’s) now offer steam wash too. How long, I wonder, before everything comes full circle and other manufacturers start to do extra rinse water, higher level wash water, H&C fill, etc., etc., so that they can keep competing!!!! Before long someone will re-invent the wheel and we’ll have sensible washers again…………..I hope anyway!!!

Dave
#49. July 30th, 2008, at 2:50 PM.

Just an afterthought from my previous post…..Albert – you say you have a combi boiler……my (very limited) experience of those contraptions suggests that they take a significant length of time to deliver any warm water after opening the tap (the time for the boiler to trigger the ignition device, light the gas, then the flames actually get to work and finally some warm water). Something that Washerhelp said a while back is lurking in the back of my mind: I seem to recall a suggestion from an LG employee that their machines detect the temp. of the incoming water and if it’s not “to their liking” they cut off the hot and just use the cold. It’s only a thought, but could your “hot” water actually be too cold for the LG to recognise it and does it herefore assume that there is no hot in the hot supply and ignore it? Washerhalp – any ideas? or am I just barking up totally the wrong tree?

Washerhelp
#50. July 30th, 2008, at 2:54 PM.

Hello Albert:

Yes, I said in a previous comment I had an explanation (quoted below) but I felt he wasn’t confident that what he was saying was accurate and could not accept his explanation with any confidence -

“(Paraphrased) “If you select a 60 degree wash the washing machine takes in hot water a bit at a time. It has a sensor in the drum that checks the temperature. If the water coming in is over 60 degrees it will take in cold instead. If it is below 60 degrees it will take it in”.”

Your quest for an explanation of how much hot water the LG washing machine should take in is very important for people trying to decide if LG offers the answer to cold fill washing machines.

According to the explanation I received it should take in a combination of hot and cold water as long as this combination doesn’t exceed 60° but only on hot washes. If there is a thermostatic sensor in the drum checking the temperature as described by the LG helpline operator it’s not an ideal place to put it. Surely it should be at the point of entry of the water.

It’s a bit harsh to say people shouldn’t touch them with a barge pole, at least they do have a hot water valve. But I do agree that unless the washing machine uses this hot valve it would be fair to say it’s pretty pointless.

LG washing machines don’t use the hot water valve on most washes, but they do say they should use it on 60 and 90° washes. However if your hot water is already 60° or higher then it is unlikely it will use much if they are actually sensing the temperature of the incoming water. Most people’s hot water should be set at 60°.

The problem is that if it took in hot water alone on a 60° wash the water would be already at the correct wash temperature. This is not ideal because if using biological detergents the 60° water temperature kills off the enzymes which are responsible for the biological cleaning.

Basically washing machine manufacturers currently believe (or have discovered) that the best wash results come from washing in initially cold water. As this water is gently heated up, slowly activating the enzymes, the laundry is washed much more thoroughly and is more likely to get an A or A+ wash efficiency rating. This is as likely an explanation as to why hot valves were removed as the fact that it is supposed to be more economical to heat up only a small amount of water needed.

To be honest I can’t help thinking that the hot water valve on and LG washing machine is of little advantage especially to the vast majority of people. It could simply be that LG have just not got round to redesigning their machines to be cold fill only. It is quite an anomaly for LG to be the only washing machine manufacturer (as far as I know) still fitting a hot valve when all other manufacturers including ones making the best washing machines in the world are now cold fill.

If LG believe a hot valve offers advantages they should use it properly and let customers know what the advantages are. As far as I’m aware LG are not boasting that they are the only manufacturer still fitting a hot water valve. They are not taking advantage of this fact, and don’t appear to be trying to appeal to customers who are unhappy with cold fill only washing machines. This is strange to me. Either they think it is better to stick with a hot valve and should give reasons why and use it efficiently. Or they might as well move over to cold fill only like most other manufacturers.

Washerhelp
#51. July 30th, 2008, at 3:36 PM.

Dave: Your experience of the advice from the local Hoover shop shows how untrustworthy advice from people selling washing machines can be. Their advice is very often based on a vested interest or sometimes even mild brainwashing by the manufacturers they are selling convincing them they are the best.

I once had an experience where I went into a local electricity board shop before they were privatised. There was a smartly dressed saleswoman who I approached and asked about Hoover washer dryer. This was in the days when washer dryers were pretty new. I was interested in what she thought of the Hoover washer dryer as I was trading as a Hoover sales dealer at the time and specialised in Hoover washing machines. She immediately steered me away from the Hoover, and walked me over to an Ariston washer dryer where she continued to “sell” it to me, dismissing the Hoover. I eventually let her know I was actually in the trade and wasn’t actually buying, and she then told me she didn’t even work for the electricity board and that she was a visiting rep from Ariston.

You make a good point about steam washing machines. I’ve had my eye on them for some years and there are eventually starting to become more commonly available. As far as I know although they still wash conventionally but just use steam to enhance the wash or may to de-crease laundry. I’m still not sure at this stage if they are just a gimmick that will not take off, or just new marketing developments trying to offer something different for the sake of it, or a genuine evolution.

The point you make about Alberts combi boiler should be equally applicable to any hot water supply. So if you are right then the problem should occur regardless of the type of boiler you use. All water coming into a washing machine is usually cold for a good 30 seconds or more before any hot starts to run in. This is precisely one of the reasons why manufacturers say it is pointless trying to get hot water in. It didn’t matter before, when they took in gallons, because when the hot water did eventually start to run in it could still contribute a reasonable percentage of the over all water intake. But now they only take in about a bowl full of water it’s all over bar the shouting before most people will get any really hot water into the machine.

Dave
#52. July 30th, 2008, at 6:00 PM.

LOL! @ the Ariston rep! Sounds utterly typical. It’s so hard to believe anything these days, and the fact that so many companies are now just badges on someone else’s goods makes things even worse. (For exaple Hoover is really Candy with a Hoover badge ever since Hoover (Europe) was bought out by Candy after the Free Flights fiasco virtually bankrupted Hoover.)

Here’s an interesting thought: my Hoover washer has 3 indicator lights: “on”, “Crease Guard” and “HEATER” – I wonder how many current manufacturers would be willing to place such an indicator on the front of their machines so that the user can *really* see when the heater is in use and judge for themselves how economical the machine really is (regardless of what fill options there are) *whilst it is actually running”. I have not seen any machines with anything like this for almost as long as I can remember. I would not mind betting that most manufacturers would suffer a big fall in sales if their machines started to display this sort of thing.

Washerhelp
#53. July 31st, 2008, at 2:21 PM.

Dave: It might be interesting to see when the heater is on but unless you are going to sit and watch it all through the wash, time it and then start doing calculations it’s of no real use.

All washing machines electricity usage can be compared using the eco labels which not only rate the energy efficiency from A – G but give the KwH usage of the washing machine.

Speaking of heaters, you’d be surprised how many people used to tell me their washing machine didn’t have a heater (they all do) simply based on the fact it had a hot water valve.

ANN SHAW
#54. August 14th, 2008, at 2:58 PM.

This was a very interesting article. My old Whirlpool machine is a hot and cold fill (we have a constant hot water supply and we run off the cold before starting the wash) and it has done stirling service over the last few years. I bought it because my Bosch broke down and didn’t expect much from it because it was only about £300, which was quite cheap at the time.

However, A YEAR AGO, and goodness only knows how – he never goes anywhere – my husband managed to pick up some kind of either lice or scabies infestation – doctors can’t agree on which and treatments don’t work, so a year later WE still have it.

I’ve managed to keep it to ourselves and our 2 sons haven’t been affected, I’m glad to say, and I think this is because for the last year, that poor old machine has been running on a hot wash (95 degrees) for 20 out of every 24 hours every weekend and holiday and for 9 hours on working days. It doesn’t do modern fabrics much good, but hey – who cares, I’ve got an iron!

However, the old Whirlpool is on its last legs and making an awful noise – as well it might after such treatment. Now I need a new machine and am confronted with only cold fill machines, which take much longer to complete a hot wash (the old one does it in 135-140 minutes whereas new ones only claim something over 180 minutes). It’s not the extra power use I’m bothered about here, but the extra time – that 40 minutes per wash will mean longer delays in getting washing out and dried. I can only just keep up as it is because every weekend is spent putting in and taking out washing, from 6 am to putting the last wash on at midnight and letting it run into the night. I can’t do so much on week days because I have to go out to work.

So I need a hot fill machine. I have looked at the LG WM16331FDK on the internet but it doesn’t indicate how hot a wash I can get from it. We live in a remote area, so I would have to order what I buy without seeing it. I’d be glad if you can advise on this point, or on how I could get that information.

Alternatively, I have been thinking about an old-fashioned non-automatic machine – 40 years ago I used to have a lovely old washer which boiled if needed and had a huge agitator to stop the clothes tangling plus a powered wringer. OK – it was a long time ago, and I can’t remember the manufacturer, but that was a good machine. I’ve been searching the internet, but even the twin tubs available don’t look solid enough and are not makes that I have heard of.

Have you any advice on that?

Regards

Ann

Washerhelp
#55. August 14th, 2008, at 5:29 PM.

Anne: Thanks, the modern twin tubs I know of are made of plastic and nothing like as well made as the hey days of twin tubs in the 50s, 60s, 70s and even 80s. The old Servis twin tubs (when Servis was a British make and very well made) could be used to batter a door down – they were built like tanks.

LG washing machines have been mentioned several times on this topic. The problem is that if using 40 degree washes most people would still get relatively little hot water in on a wash. However, if you are washing mostly at 90 degrees I would expect it to utilise the hot water. I would expect it to fill only with hot water for a 90 degree wash. You would need to draw off the cooled water to really take advantage though.

The best thing is to ask LG directly if it would fill with mostly hot water on a 90 degree wash. LG UK

Please let us know anything you find out.

Dave
#56. August 15th, 2008, at 12:12 AM.

Is it my imagination or have a whole load of posts to this board suddenly disappeared? Including all the ones with information from Miele via me? Or have I muddled up which board has which thread? Or is it just my PC? (or woudl you rather be a fish?! )

Dave
#57. August 15th, 2008, at 12:13 AM.

Ignore my last post (or, moderator – remove it and this if you like) I DID mix up which board I was reading.

Sorry

ANN SHAW
#58. August 15th, 2008, at 10:19 AM.

Just received this reply from LG -

When a unit has both hot and cold fill connect it will perform these functions:

The unit will only take in water from the hot tank if its temperature is lower than the programme selected

“Usually water in hot tanks is around 60 °C, so if a 95°C programme is selected, then it will take the water directly from the hot tank.

When the temperature selected is 40 °C or lower, only the cold valve works. The unit lets in cold water and heats it to the required temperature.”

So that’s pretty clear – it will take the direct hot water and use it to attain the higher temperature on a hot wash but it will not use water from the hot intake on a wash of 40 degrees or less.

My son has suggested to me that with the way I am using the washing machine at present, I’d probably be better, though to buy a really cheap one with only a cold fill meantime, run it into the ground and when we have solved our problem with unwelcome visitors, then to buy a more expensive LG one. I’m thinking about that idea because I still will want a hot wash for bedding and towels once this is all over.

Thanks for your help.

Washerhelp
#59. August 15th, 2008, at 3:37 PM.

Hi Dave: You had me worried then but no. There are two articles on this topic and the one with the most comments (including the ones you refer to) are here – What’s happened to the hot water valve in washing machines?

My third comment on that other article was one asking for all further comments on the subject to go on to this article as, “it would be better to have them all in one place” but ironically that thread went on to have more comments than this one

Washerhelp
#60. August 15th, 2008, at 3:41 PM.

Too late Dave: I’d already replied before seeing your retraction . It’ll help anyone else who gets confused between the two threads anyway.

Washerhelp
#61. August 15th, 2008, at 4:20 PM.

Anne: Thanks for your information. This is in line with what has been said before. Basically, if you do a lot of 90 ° washes you will be better off with a hot & cold fill machine but if you do mostly 40 ° washes the hot valve will be of no use. Even if you do 60 ° washes there’s no guarantee the hot valve will be used because it will already be 60 ° or higher when running hot.

Silver Topsy
#62. August 25th, 2008, at 7:39 PM.

The plumbing worries me. If the hot hose is taken off for the new cold fill washing machine, I can imagine the old (hot) pipe which now has nothing on the end of it, could well leak, and I hate leaks. Why can’t the people with hot and cold plumbing still buy a Candy washing machine with hot and cold fill??

Washerhelp
#63. August 26th, 2008, at 10:59 AM.

I mention this on Washerhelp ( Tips for installing a washing machine ) and advise that you fit a cap to the old hot fill tap. You should be able to get one from somewhere like B & Q or a plumbers merchant.

It’s usually a brass threaded cap which screws onto the hot tap.

ANN SHAW
#64. August 26th, 2008, at 11:28 AM.

That’s what we’ve done. The hot pipe seems to be secure with its new cap. I don’t want to take it out, because eventually I will be going back to a hot and cold fill when I have run this new cold fill one into the ground.

Dave
#65. August 26th, 2008, at 9:36 PM.

Miele in German have replied to my enquiry about the hot and cold fill model by sending me the following press release and a request that I “be patient” whilst they “make further enquiries about availability in the UK”.

I am very interested in the technical information given and am persuing Miele further as a matter of urgency!

Press Release:
Miele’s AllWater reduces water and energy consumption
Environmentally friendly washing

With a view to climate change, the signs of which are becoming increasingly apparent, good husbandry of natural resources is a matter of prime importance. As long as 14 years ago, Miele’s launch of the AllWater washing machine represented a major initial step in the right direction. Since its introduction, this machine, designed to run on various types of water, has been constantly updated to incorporate changes to current model ranges. The current W 3841 WPS Allwater is not only characterised by its low water consumption but also by intelligent wash programmes.

The main difference on the outside are the two water inlet hoses at the rear of the unit. These hoses can be connected to hot and cold tap water or, optionally, cold water and an alternative water supply. But that is not where the differences stop: more important still is the modern appliance technology and electronic intelligence behind the scenes, together with two separate water inlet systems offering users numerous options.

On a hot-water fill, oil, gas or solar energy can be used to preheat the water supply to the machine – whatever is cheapest! If the water heating system is in the direct vicinity of the machine, electricity costs can be cut noticeably. In the ‘Cottons’ programme, electricity consumption can be cut by 40%. This equates to a reduction in primary energy consumption of around 21% and energy cost savings of 28%. A further reduction to 43 l in the 60°C standard ‘Cottons’ programme is possible by selecting the ‘Warm Rinse’ option as residual detergent is more reliably removed by warmer water.

Other machine control options allow the use of alternative water supplies such as rain or well water. For reasons of hygiene, however, tap water is always used for the last rinse cycle. The use of rain or well water results in considerable savings in expensive drinking water. If, for example, rain water is softer than water from the tap, reduced detergent consumption can be an added benefit.

But the environment is not the only beneficiary: the patented honeycomb drum also goes gentle on laundry, perfectly uniting gentle laundry care with protection of the environment. The special honeycomb structure protects garments by creating a thin film of water between the drum and the laundry, allowing the load to slide effortlessly and thereby reducing friction. During spinning, hole penetration and therefore laddering is greatly reduced, thanks to the reduced diameter of the drum perforations. And Miele even has an official endorsement to prove it – issued by Germany’s leading ‘wfk’ laundry-research institute.

Miele’s W 3841 WPS Allwater with its 6 kg load capacity boasts a wide range of programmes and additional functions. Special programmes include ‘Automatic’, ‘Cottons’, ‘Minimum iron’, ‘Synthetics’, ‘Shirts’, ‘Jeans’, ‘Outdoor’, ‘Express’, a programme for dark laundry and Miele’s tried-and-tested hand-wash programmes for woollens and silks. These programmes are all selected via the main rotary selector switch.

Like all Miele machines, the W 3841 WPS Allwater is tested to last a minimum of 20 years. Longevity and build quality, in itself, represents a much underestimated contribution towards an appliance’s environmental credentials. And to ensure that a long-lasting machine can participate in technological progress, Miele’s has equipped this model with the Update function, allowing new programmes and programme versions to be downloaded at a later date.

Dave
#66. August 26th, 2008, at 9:49 PM.

An extremely useful journal that I have found on the internet can be read at http://www.nei-dt.de/Fach-Info/Sparen/FB07-engl.pdf.

It seems to indicate, pretty clearly, that in Europe hot fill is a high priority and “the future”.

There is some interesting content about types of connctions and hot water supplies that will maximise benefits.

Washerhelp
#67. August 29th, 2008, at 11:00 AM.

Dave: Thanks for the update. To properly utilise all the different hot water supplies and systems in an as environmentally efficient way as possible needs a sophisticated washing machine and Miele should be able to do it. It’s not as simple as just reintroducing the hot valve (as my articles and comments have described)

Andy B
#68. September 18th, 2008, at 3:50 PM.

No mention has been made of how the water is heated in the washing machine and how well they cope with hard water. We live in an area with v.hard water and electric kettles can be rendered useless in months. I suspect the same would happen with a washing machine?

Yes I know you can fit inline water filters but this is assuming you have the space & besides we already have a filter on the inlet to our combi.

I might sound like an old fart here but it just seems that making applicances that last for years & years doesn’t do the manufacturers bottom line any good.

Washerhelp
#69. September 18th, 2008, at 9:40 PM.

Andy B: As far as limescale is concerned it is better to heat the water in the washing machine because washing machine detergent guards against the effects of hard water and limescale. As long as you use a good quality detergent and use the proper amount for the hardness of the water and the soiling level of the laundry ther eshould be no limescale problems – Should I use Calgon anti limescale tablets or other such products?

I agree 100% with your second point. I’ve spent the last 9 years on Washerhelp lamenting about about the quality of most washing machines.

Patrick
#70. September 19th, 2008, at 2:06 PM.

Most American Top loader washing machines use a hot and cold tap. I’ve got a Whirlpool American Top Loader which is sitting right next to a modern Combi boiler. And since the washload at more than 8Kg is nearly twice as much as European washing machines it uses more water per load, which means that most of the hot water is suplied by the boiler. It also means a lot less washing as you can load a lot more clothes.
Reliability is also a lot better than European washing machines – in fact many of these are used in commercial environments like camp sites etc. In my opinion these are the best choice if you’ve got the space and plenty of clothes…

ANN SHAW
#71. September 19th, 2008, at 2:46 PM.

Where might I find information about American top loader washing machines and where to get hold of one when I’ve decided?

My cheapo machine actually performs better than I expected on a cold fill, but when I do get a better one, I would like to examine all the possibilities.

Washerhelp
#72. September 19th, 2008, at 2:51 PM.

Thanks for your contribution Patrick. I agree that top loaders tend to be more reliable. They are also likely to utilise much more hot water as you say. However (and this is relevant for Ann’s question too) top loaders tend to be more expensive to run and use much more water.

Which is best, a top loader or a front loader? (washing machine)

American style top loaders are increasingly available in most places in the UK these days.

Patty
#73. September 22nd, 2008, at 5:44 PM.

I recently purchased an LG SteamWasher Model : WM0742HGA. It has a hot and cold connection. However, I only have cold water and have used the Y connector. I have only used the cold settings as we have plans to run a hot water connection. The machine itself has a water heater built in but I have not tried it. I’m thinking that the built in water heater is only designed as a supplement, not as the sole source of heating the water. The manual does not mention using only cold water. Is it OK to use the built in heater with only cold water coming in? If so, I would rather not bother running the hot water line. Please help…

Washerhelp
#74. September 23rd, 2008, at 10:30 AM.

Hello Patty: I have written an article covering what to do if you have a hot and cold washing machine but only have a cold water suppy here – My washing machine is a hot and cold fill but I only have a cold water supply

All washing machines use their heaters. It’s only the hot water from the plumbing that “suppliments” the heating process and these days and in most cases it hardly makes any difference anyway ( as explained in my article – What’s happened to the hot water valve in washing machines? )

It is possible that the steam washer does work different though and a hot supply could make a difference economically. If I were you I would check with LG’s customer services whether using cold water only would result in any significant energy costs or not – LG customer services

ANN SHAW
#75. September 23rd, 2008, at 11:14 AM.

When you use a steam washer, is the steam produced very hot (ie above boiling)? This would be a great sterilisation procedure for towels etc, but is it possible for the machines to produce steam at a lower temperature?

I only ask because I had a discussion with someone recently who seemed to think that lower temperature steam is possible in certain circumstances, while I had always thought that steam, in an ambient temperature, could only be produced around boililng point.

Dave
#76. September 23rd, 2008, at 10:29 PM.

Well, my poor Hoover A3260 has finally given up the ghost: the terrible rattling was the heater banging the tub because the heater bracket had rusted away….. but when I opened up the tub (removing the back plate in the hope of popping a new bearing in) I found that not only had the heater bracket disintegrated but that there were two holes rusted right through the tub along the weld at the top of the front. Anyway, technical details aside, this calamity caused me to buy an LG WM14440TDS washer with hot fill valve (Energy Saving Trust recommended).

I’m not very impressed (yet) – whilst it has a hot fill valve I have yet to find any evidence of it taking in any hot water on any programme, but, that aside, it’s soooooo slowww!!! Well over 2 and a quarter hours for a cottons 60 degree cycle. Most of the delay, however, is down to the “balacing” of the load before each spin; the time on the display just before the final spin, for example, is 15 minutes, but 20 minutes after reaching this point it still said 15 minutes remaining and was still “balancing” the load.

When it does finally spin it is, I have to say, very very quiet indeed, but at the top speed it doesn’t half make even the solid concrete floor it’s on throb and rumble. On the positive side I am very impressed by the build quality (I had the top and back off before I even installed it and inspected all te innards and components!) and ease of use and the virtually silent operation. I have a suspicion that the lack of hot fill might be linked to low water pressure on the hot feed by comparison to the cold mains, so at the weekend I shall be fitting a cold feed from the cold water cistern so that it’s the same pressure as the hot, and see if that changes things.

Temperature monitoring is possible – pressing the temperature button during the cycle causes the display to show the water temp in the sump; on a 40 degree cycle it seems to hold the temp at 45 degrees which is interesting. I shall monitor the 60 and 95 degree cycles next time I use them.
I’ll keep readers here informed as I get to kow this machine well, but for anyone wanting to use solar water (like me) I have to urge some degree of caution over LG just yet.

Meantime, anyone with a Hoover Electron 1100 that they want to keep going, I have a drum, back plate, motor, sump hose, soap dispenser hose, water valves, speed control module, wiring loom, pully, brand new (never fitted) belt and door seal, door glass, top plate, backplate (slightly rusty in one place), concrete weight, drain pump and cabinet (rather rusty in two places) free to good homes! The only bits that are not serviceable are the drum bearings (still in the backplate), the heater (working but slightly damaged so I’d not like anyone to use it), and the tub (gone to the council tip)!

Washerhelp
#77. September 24th, 2008, at 11:46 AM.

Hello Dave: Thanks very much for posting your experience. RIP the Hoover A3260, which was a great washing machine by todays standards. It must have been a good 15 – 20 years old.

We had already established that the although the LG still has a hot water valve it would be unlikely to actually use it much for most people with the comment from Albert and my reply but it’s great to have another opinion from someone actually owning one.

If your lack of hot water iuse is due to lower water pressure on the hot side it’s exactly why everyone else has stopped using hot valves. Modern washers take so little water that by the time the hot water starts to run in it’s all over.

However, If your hot water temperature from the boiler or tank is over 60 degrees the LG apparently won’t use it unless you are using a wash programme higher than 60 degrees because it’s too hot . (Hot water shouldn’t be higher than 60 degrees anyway as it’s widely accepted to be the optimum temperature for hot water).

Wash Times

Your problem with the wash times is typical and a modern issue Wash Times Too Long?, Reasons why. Plus how long does your washing machine take to wash?

Balancing Loads

If your washing machine has a large drum capacity such as 7kg or more (or even 6kg) it could be that you are underloading the machine. One problem with larger drum sizes is that they need more laundry to balance the drum otherwise they can refuse to spin. [ Related: How do I avoid out of balanced loads in my washing machine?

Dave
#78. September 24th, 2008, at 6:36 PM.

Day 5 in the LG washer house…..
Thanks for your comments Andy.
I’ve got a bit of feedback for some of them and I’d be interested in both your and other readersR

White Goods Help Blog:

I want a washing machine with a hot water valve

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