I still get people asking if I know of any washing machines with a hot water valve. This article gives a few suggestions – but you should read on first to fully understand the issue. It is not as simple as you might think. It could be a complete waste of your time looking for one.
Most washing machines now only have a cold water valve but many people instinctively don’t like this. We all know washing machines wash with hot water, so it seems crazy not to use the hot water we already have in our homes. Heating it all up from cold seems wasteful and unnecessary.
This apparent madness is even more annoying for people who have an environmentally friendly and economic source of hot water such as solar powered.
However, there is a good argument that because modern washing machines use so little water on wash – there is no need for a hot valve. It’s in fact more economical to use cold fill only on 40 ° washes for most (but not all) people as explained here – is a hot & cold fill washing machine more economical?.
What is the science behind cold fill only washing machines?
All this is explained fully in my article Should I buy a cold fill washing machine?
So are there any washing machines with a hot valve?
At the time of writing there are some LG & Statesman models with a hot valve. However, they don’t take in hot water at all unless you use a very hot wash cycle. There is alternatively a British made washing machine with a hot water valve. Ebac’s hot & cold fill washing machine is advertised as using, “Intelligent hot fill technology”.
Some Hotpoint washing machines appear to be hot and cold fill, but they are designed for cold fill because there’s only a cold fill hose supplied and a y-piece adaptor supplies both valves.
I suspect this is a temporary measure, and that subsequent models will just have the cold valve.
So hot and cold fill washing machines are currently very rare. But even if you find one, you need to know that the few I’ve seen rarely even use the hot water valve.
If most of your wash cycles are done at 40 degrees or less it will most likely never use the hot valve at all.
Related:
Several people have asked me if you can connect an environmentally friendly and economic hot supply to the cold valve to utilise it. The short answer is no, for more details read Don’t connect the hot water supply to the cold valve on cold fill washing machine
New comments on this topic have been closed. There were over 600 comments now trimmed down (below) to 233. There are very interesting discussions there.
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Hi guys,
It sounds as though the wheels of ‘belief in people power’ are starting to turn out there.
I agree with the comments made so far. The reply by Emma Bevan from Miele UK that they don’t have any plans to supply hot and cold fill machines in the UK in the near future are deplorable considering the potential benefits they offer to both the customer’s pocket and security as well as the environment. It does make me wonder what the real reasons are for this stance whether it really is just laziness or if there is a general secret campaign in this country to resist true ideas of sustainability.
If you think about it, the reasons can usually be found if you follow the money trail and this won’t be the money trail of companies like Miele because presumably they would make money by supplying an untapped market in the UK with goods that they are already making abroad. I think the money trail to follow might possibly be the one/s that help to inform/influence government policy:
In this country manufacturing has shrunk so much that we don’t actually create nearly as many real and tangible items as before. Also we import about 70% of the food that we eat. Our country’s books are only balanced each year (or used to be balanced) by dealings in so called ‘invisibles’ (e.g. stocks, shares, dealings in world currencies and interest on bank loans) which is why the current worldwide financial crisis is hitting the UK harder than other countries that are more self-sufficient. This means that currently we are fast losing some of the main things that we trade with, with the outside world to supply us with things that we don’t produce. This reduction in trade also means that there is also a reduction in taxes to the Treasury compounded even more by the reduction in house purchases and the massive amount of money that it used to generate for the government by the charging of stamp duty. What stamp duty they do manage to collect is further reduced by the slump in house prices that serves to further reduce stamp duty payments (as they are collected as a percentage of house prices).
If you look also at the tax that is collected on fossil fuel usage you can see that there is no real incentive from the government to reduce this energy consumption, especially in these trying times. In fact, call me cynical, but I don’t think that there ever have been any worthwhile moves towards encouraging the use of renewable power, especially home generated methods. This is because it reduces the amount of tax the government can collect apart from the one-off payment of VAT charged on the initial cost of the technology (mostly manufactured in other countries) which again encourages the government to keep the prices of these technologies high.
I believe that any moves made by the powers that be towards encouraging the reduction in use of fossil fuels by hiking the prices of them has largely been a cynical one that means they collect more taxes (as a percentage of price charged) whilst at the same time scoring Green ‘Brownie’ points (no reference to Gordon Brown by the way) for appearing to discourage their use. The reality is that it is really hard for the individual household to even contemplate, let alone afford, to enter the home energy generation world. That is unless you are highly motivated, educated and well off as well as being able to see through ‘The Matrix’ (and how many people fit this description as a percentage of the overall population?). Most green ideas and products are cleverly being niched by marketing spin creating the illusion of a debate over their necessity and their relevance to the average person and if that hasn’t put you off then they have been made unaffordable to most people. This is no accident but is part of the design of the system we live in.
In Germany, however, the Green movements have been extremely effective in pressurising their government for change and in educating their public to change their behaviour. This has been the norm. for many years now. As a result their public have long been demanding sustainable solutions and it’s probably this difference in demand that has encouraged companies like Miele to make washing machines that are more environmentally and ‘running cost’ friendly. So in conclusion I agree with Dave that if all people on this discussion forum can email/write to Miele UK and/or Miele Germany then we might be able to encourage them to supply the UK market sooner rather than later because, after all, they are in the business of making money. Below is a copy of an email I sent the other day to Emma Bevan regarding this. I have yet to receive a reply:
“Dear Emma,
I am trying to get hold of a hot and cold fill washing machine here in the UK. I understand that your company has them for sale in Germany (i.e.: the “W1747 WPS Ecoline” and the “W3841 WPS Allwater”). I also understand that your company has no plans to supply any hot and cold fill machines to the uk.
I am not sure if you are aware of the massive swing away from fossil fuel dependance in the UK towards the use of renewables (e.g. heating hot water with the sun and efficient wood burning stoves). The momentum of this public swing movement has been fanned by the recent and current financial crisis and the insecurity around fossil fuel costs (and therefore electricity costs). So whereas before these choices were being made purely for lifestyle and environmental reasons they are now being used to ensure future security, thereby serving to insulate people from the unstable events in the world. This is why the movement is expanding exponentially at the moment. Bearing this in mind I was wondering if your company might reconsider it’s future plans and consider starting to supply this fast expanding UK market. I understand that there is the potential to reprogramme the software with the W3841 WPS Allwater so translation into English might not be such a big hurdle for machines that are already being made in Germany.
Failing this, can you let me know whether I can order one of your machines from Germany and it would be electrically compatible for use in the UK.
I look forward to your reply.
Yours Faithfully,
Mike.”
Looking forward to seeing whether we can actually use this discussion forum to actually change something.
Mike.
Ref: Miele Allwater
In Denmark the Miele allwater W3841 is no longer imported and have not been for almost 10 years – however one dealer still sell them simply because he pre-order enough so that it is worth while for Miele.
Off course you can buy the all-water model in Gernany and have it shipped and still be covered by the EU 2 year gurantee – for many years you could not but the combined washer and dryer from Miele in Denmark so I bought one in UK and had it shipped. You can find the best price in germany – as we speak the best price today is £1,349.00
Hope this was of help.
“I don’t believe they are that much more economical, especially at 40 degrees. I think the hot machine they do have in Germany only claims to be more economical on hot washes”
I’m quite convinced that these machines are more economical. The different existing mixing devices such as Alfamix claims a huge energy save and there must be something to this. A computer controlled washing machine should be able to utilize hot water even better than an external device. Faster washes is another advantage.
It would be interesting to hear from anyone using the
W 1747 WPS Eco Line. It’s a little bit sad that the machine is so expensive and, in my opinion, ugly… It’s slighly cheaper than
Softtronic W 3841 WPS Allwater though.
Further contact with Miele from me:
“Thanks for your last email.
Can you please confirm that the Miele W 1747 WPS Eco Line is a hot and cold fill machine, and where in Europe I would be able to get one? Thank you.”
Miele UK response:
“You will be able to purchase this from Miele Germany. You will need to make sure with them that it is a hot and cold fill and what electrical supply is needed for the UK. Machines coming from Europe usually need to be single phase.”
Hmmm!!
Miele clearly don’t think anyone in the UK wants a washing machine with a hot valve. Or at least that only a few do. I can’t imagine it being worth their while introducing it in the UK unless either enough people want one or they know that it is cheaper to wash in the UK using a hot and cold fill washer. If the latter is true it makes no sense that any company, never mind Miele, would not reintroduce the hot valve and have an advantage over their competitors.
On the contrary, it seems more logical to me that in the past, when all washers were hot and cold and the higher quality washing machines introduced cold fill only washers claiming better wash results they were perceived to have a competitive advantage, and one by one most other manufacturers followed suit.
I still cannot be 100% certain if the demise of the hot valve was due to genuine advantage to consumers or a cynical ploy to save production costs. I’m currently giving them the benefit of the doubt.
I’m confident that if you surveyed 10,000 people and asked them a simple question, would you prefer a cold fill washing machine or a hot and cold fill washing machine? that they would virtually all say they think a washing machine should have a hot valve.
Even if having a hot valve is a waste of time for most people because of all the reasons I mention in my main articles I would still expect savy manufacturers to give people what they want. The idea that they refuse to give customers a hot valve because they know it’s better for them to have cold fill only isn’t too credible to me, especially when the extra costs to customers in lost hot water through cooling in pipework are totally hidden.
The only costs directly attributed to the washing machine are the costs for running the machine and heating the water. Even if a small amount of hot water were to be added to a wash it would help reduce the energy used by the machine itself. The fact that the customer might be worse off because they also drew in many litres of water through their pipework which rapidly cools and is wasted may be true, but it’s hard to see how manufactures would care because the energy usage figures on the Eco labels only show the energy used by the washing machine itself.
Hans Christian: Thanks for your contribution. What puzzles me though is why it would be worth going to all the trouble of getting one imported and paying approx £1200 (at todays exchange rates) to get a hot valve.
The energy costs of using a normal cold fill Miele washing machine are no where near as high as they used to be. According to the specs, a mid range Miele cold fill washing machine only uses 265.2kW in a year of washing (figures based on a “typical 4 person family”). This is currently around £26 per year (based on 10p per unit) Even if we doubled the cost to 20p per unit it’s only £52 a year. Even if having a hot valve halved the costs (which is a very generous hope) it will only save £13 a year in electricity or if using 20 pence figure it would save £26 per year. Would the £1200 investment ever pay for itself?
Assuming electricity costs are only going to rise and the Miele should last 20 years it may be possible eventually, but I wouldn’t see it as an essential investment when you can get a cold fill Miele washer for £585. I wouldn’t be worried and angered that my cold fill washer isn’t using hot water because they hardly use any water at all on wash, which costs relatively very little to heat and maybe they are right that cold fill on balance is much better.
This whole issue is caused by Miele claiming their special hot and cold fill is cheaper to run which is direct opposition to their claim that cold fill washing machines (shared by most other manufacturers) is cheaper to run. This causes total confusion.
Astrand: Thanks, 47% savings on £26 per year is £12.22. Even doubling the cost of electricity to 20p per unit only means savings of about £24.50 per year. If you bought a washing machine that costs an extra £700 in order to save 24 pence (or even 47p) a week it’s a poor economical solution. It would take 20 years to “save” £490.
Clearly energy prices will go up a lot in the next 20 years so I understand someone taking proactive decisions to become as energy efficient as possible, and it’s quite possible for it to prove a worthwhile investment in the end. It could even prove an invaluable investment if energy prices were to rise to frightening levels which is a possibility.
I’m not sure how many people are so dedicated and so prepared, even able, to invest so much though. I would assume Miele believe there’s isn’t a decent demand for the machine in question and I can understand if they don’t think it’s commercially viable.
Also, bear in mind that the “up to” 47% savings claimed are based on washing at higher temperatures than 40 degrees and most people only wash at 40 most of the time.
This goes back to my point of anything that is better for the environment and energy efficiency being priced way too high which prevents people who aren’t loaded from being involved in this green conscious market. Whether this is a cynically purposeful design on behalf of policy makers or simply manufacturers charging ‘as high a price as the market will take’ is debatable. Although I suspect that both probably apply. Whatever the reasons, the result is the same in that it discourages most people from being able to afford to reduce their environmental impact on the planet. I agree that the Miele machines being discussed are way too expensive and can’t possibly be that way due to much higher manufacturing costs. It will simply be that the sort of people who feel the need to ‘green up’ their lives are identified as having more disposable income and therefore are able to pay more.
I think that in the light of current fast deteriorating environmental and financial conditions and the exponential growth in awareness of the necessity to reduce our negative impacts on the planet there must be a huge gap on the market to produce lower priced machines that is just waiting to be filled.
My situation is that I am planning to live off the grid. This means that reducing electricity usage has many more cost implications than simply the price per unit of electricity generated using fossil fuels. The less electricity I use, the less batteries and methods of charging them I have to pay for (and, therefore, the less imbodied energy used to produce what I need) and , of course, the cost of these is generally high.
In an ideal world I would love it if there was a UK based manufacturing company making environmentally friendly washing machines (I also think that it would be great if people in other countries also had manufacturers of these products in their own countries). It is however very noticeable that the number of people employed in manufacturing and the number of manufacturing companies that are based in the UK has massively reduced over the years. This is largely due to the companies moving abroad to countries where the wages are much much less than they are in the UK and the employment standards regulations are much reduced in number and effectiveness (if they have any at all). This massively reduced labour cost in the manufacturing process has the effect of massively increasing the value added to the finished products as the profits are increased due to the reduced overheads, at the expense of peoples welfare. It also means that the benefits of the whole process are concentrated in fewer and fewer peoples hands. It is a mistake to see profit as value. Therefore, the manufacturing value added league table is misleading as a measure of the value/benefit that the manufacturing industry brings to the UK population. As you say statistics can be misleading.
I am still waiting for a reply from Miele UK. Has anyone else had any better luck out there?
Mike.
Hi Richard: In answer to your “Why should a washing machine cost £700 extra? It’s certainly little to do with the extra manufacturing costs, that’s for sure”
The Allwater model is a premium model. It’s not just the same as the £600 model but with a hot water valve.
It’s a very different top spec machine so it’s not a fair comparison. I mentioned it’s £700 more because it’s the only one they do that uses hot water and you can get a normal model (lower spec in many ways but still a Miele) for £700 less than importing the Allwater one. The way I talked about it not being worth £700 more for the potential savings may have given the impression the £700 extra was just for the hot water valve abilities.
Actually, Miele produces two different machines with hot water intake: The Allwater one (W 3841) and the EcoLine (W 1747). It’s understandable that the Allwater model is expensive, since it’s so special, being able to use rainwater etc.
The price for the W 1747 model seems to be in line with most other Miele models; somewhere in the middle. According to idealo.de, the price for the W 1747 model is 1139 EUR. Other Miele models costs between 749 and 2259 EUR. The cheapest Softtronic model in the W 1000 series (W 1714) costs 899 EUR. So although the machine is still expensive, the difference is not that large: 240 EUR between the cheapest “similar” machine and the hot fill one.