My attention was drawn to rinsing efficiency after noticing that out of dozens of washing machines reviewed by Which? most of them had a poor rating for rinsing. Even those singled out as Best Buys were “poor” at rinsing. Believe it or not, at least one Best Buy was “very poor”. I found that pretty shocking.
From studying the figures it is clear that if “good”, or “very good” rinsing was one of the prerequisites for a Best Buy there would be no Best Buy washing machines or washer dryers at all – not a single one. It appears that Which? have decided to allow the poor rinsing results to be a caveat instead of a best buy killer. Please note however that several Which? best buys are “satisfactory” at rinsing which is something at least.
Out of 125 washing machines and washer dryers tested, a remarkable 75 of them (60%) were rated either “poor” or “very poor” at rinsing with only 3 getting the rating we should expect for all washing machines which is “good”.
The rest were a mere “satisfactory”. To summarise, just less than 3 % of the 125 washers & dryers are “good” at rinsing according to Which?
Since writing this article I’ve discovered Which? no longer give the majority of washing machines 1 or 2 star ratings for rinsing ability, and the majority appear to get 3 or 4 stars. Which? tell me they’ve readjusted their rinse marks to more accurately reflect the degrees of abilities between even poor rinsing machines. However, they are still critical of many of their rinsing abilities in the comments and the pros and cons.
What does this mean?
Well for a start it doesn’t mean that we can settle for one of the three washing machines that are “good” at rinsing because they unfortunately let themselves down in other areas such as with “noisy spin, and poor brand reliability”. However, if you really need a washing machine that rinses better than any other – maybe because of allergies – then at least Which? have identified three candidates out of the 125 they’ve tested so far.
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Why aren’t they rinsing properly and does it really matter?
Surely all washing machines should rinse well? It’s surely quite simple, you just use enough water to rinse them properly. It’s astounding that we have reached the situation where the majority of washing machines and washer dryers on sale in the UK are apparently poor at rinsing.
This has probably come about because people have been focussing on other aspects, which has left rinsing as a low priority. Two explanations spring to mind. Firstly, the focus on using less and less water is clearly impacting on our washing machine’s ability to rinse effectively. Whereas modern detergents can facilitate efficient and effective washing results at lower temperatures and with less water, no such product is currently allowing effective rinsing with much less water.
Good rinsing needs plenty of water which is in direct opposition to the current environmental concerns and clamour to be the washing machine using the least amount of water.
Eco LabelsThe second explanation I can think of is that the eco-labelling system which awards ratings for energy efficiency, spin efficiency and wash efficiency do not appear to take into account rinse efficiency.
As such, manufacturers aren’t being judged on how well their washing machines rinse, only on how well they wash and how well they extract water on spin. I’m speculating at this stage, but I can’t see how so many washing machines could be awarded an “A” wash efficiency rating if the tests took into account how well the clothes were rinsed. Presumably, as long as all stains are removed and laundry looks “clean” no one bothers about how much soap detergent residue is left.
It might be a good idea to create a fourth category, “rinse efficiency” on the eco labels, or at least include the rinse efficiency as part of the wash efficiency test.
Ultimately if customers don’t notice an issue then it could be argued that it doesn’t really matter.
Maybe it doesn’t for most people, but it surely does to anyone sensitive to wash detergents and with allergies and a lot of people are. There were 581 comments added on this topic from such people before I had to close comments to prevent it being endless.
The current situation is that to anyone keen to buy a washing machine with good rinsing I have no washing machine to recommend because none of the companies producing the best, and the most reliable washing machines currently supply one that rinses above average according to Which? although this could easily change and you would need to check out the latest to be sure.
Are Which? being too critical? Are Which? applying too stringent a rinse test? I must admit I’ve not had many complaints from people saying their washing machine isn’t rinsing properly and my own Miele washing machine, which although a Which? Best Buy, didn’t receive a “good” rating for rinsing yet it appears to rinse perfectly well as far as we can see.
In fact I remarked to my wife that my clothes don’t smell of detergent like they used to in the old washing machine and deduced that it rinsed much better. However, neither of us have any reactions to washing machine detergent. The thing about Which? is that they are totally independent.
They work only for their subscribers interests and are actually a registered charity. They don’t make any money directly by recommending any product (even though they could) because they want to be seen as 100% unbiased. They are highly respected and I expect they test products fairly. However, my understanding is that the do charge for companies to display their “Best Buy” logo!
I suspect Which? are right and that modern washing machines don’t generally rinse very well because of the reasons I speculate about above. Whether it matters or whether it will change depends on whether enough of the public are bothered, or even notice. The 581 comments added to this article below show that many people do find this a big issue.
Which? research
NOTE: Which? do rate some washing machines as satisfactory for rinsing and even a couple are rated as good, although unfortunately the few rated good (so far) are not so good on reliability.
Which? are constantly reviewing washing machines so if rinsing is particularly important to you it makes sense to become a member and see all the buying advice. I can’t print their advice for copyright reasons.
Here’s how they describe their reviews –
We are of course well known for our traditional product testing. And when we test something like the proverbial washing machine, we will ask the laboratory not only to measure how clean the clothes get, but how much water and energy is used? How easy is it to work out the programmes? What is the machine like on specialist cycles? How long does it take? All these things feed into our best buy criteria.
We will devise the testing schedule by looking at things from the ordinary user’s point of view: and if standard industry methods are not good enough we will devise our own methods ”
Causes of poor rinsing
There are some common causes of poor rinsing even in washing machines that do rinse well that it might be useful to point out. Anyone experiencing poor rinsing problems where washing comes out with detergent residues or white powder streaks should read this – White streaks or residual washing powder after washing
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I agree with you Nikki. I also like my clothes rinsed properly and I don’t see why my skin should suffer with these chemicals in my towels, clothes, bedding etc rubbing against my skin, be it enzymes or any other chemicals which cause my skin to suffer. I manage to get my towels rinsed well enough with hot water added to the washing machine during the re-rinse “quickwash” programme, but it does require a lot of hot water – that’s just using 1/3 up the door twice!! Who cares about the slight extra cost of the water and heating it? Since re-rinsing with lots of warm water, my skin is now cured, I no longer suffer eczema or skin rashes.
Washerhelp, rinsing is not a problem unless you – or someone who comes into contact with your bedding or towels – is allergic to laundry detergent, even small amounts of unrinsed detergent. That explains why the JLWD1609 rinses acceptably in your home.
I think the public are gullible and refuse to believe that their modern washing machine can cause unexplained skin allergies and asthma. It’s so sad and extremely annoying that I have to rewash everything without detergent and then add jug after jug of hot water, but at least it works and doesn’t take up much valuable time. I don’t care how much extra it costs in water bills (I have a water meter) and energy needed to heat this hot water; it’s a small price to pay compared to skin reactions! I would be happy if the “extra rinse” option used that same large volume of water and filled the washing machine with HOT water for cottons, especially towels. If these daft EU/EEC regulations insist that washing machine manufacturers cannot use lots of water (and hot water rinsing) by default, then the “extra rinse” option would not be the “default” and people – like me – would be happy to have gallons of extra water and hot water rinsing on cotton cycles. That could be a “loophole” to work around this ECC and “environmentally friendly” nonsense?
Nikki:
I don’t think me asking for a reasonable level of removal of detergent from my towels is too much to ask.
There’s that word,-reasonable again. It’s a tricky little bugger that word because it’s highly subjective.
I haven’t said anything which conflicts with that statement Nikki. As far as I’m aware all recent discussion was sparked because a few people objected to my crazy idea that 2 extra rinses might be a-of interest to people following this topic (Washerhelp comment #411).
For reasons unknown to me, my comment that a washing machine with an extra rinse option might be of interest seems to have been interpreted as proclaiming a complete cure for anyone with detergent allergies and in need of refuting.
We do get a reasonable level of rinsing from lots of washing machines (in cold water too). Your-reasonable is different to most people’s reasonable because as WMUser confirmed in his last comment you appear to have an allergic reaction to detergent ;-)
Washerhelp, rinsing is not a problem unless you or someone who comes into contact with your bedding or towels is allergic to laundry detergent, even small amounts of unrinsed detergent.
What you require is above average rinsing ability, which of course is reasonable to you, but if most people are happy with the standard rinsing they would say their washing machine already rinses reasonably and they have no need to use more water to rinse in.
I’m pretty confident that the vast majority of people would object to washing machines rinsing in hot or warm water because the extra costs involved in not only the extra components but the extra use of heated water would be seen as unnecessary to anyone but the minority of people with skin reactions.
My washing machine rinses perfectly reasonably, as do millions of other people’s. The main reason I wrote this article was because in my 30 odd years experience of repairing washing machines and my 10 years of creating and running washerhelp.co.uk I never had any customer complain their washing machine didn’t rinse properly (in cold water) and I was pretty shocked at the Which? tests and reviews of washing machines where they rated most washing machines as poor at rinsing because I wasn’t aware of anyone who had a problem with their laundry.
This article has subsequently turned into the second most commented on article, where contributors have eloquently shown that there are people to whom standard rinsing is in no way adequate and highlighted a very real issue. However, although I haven’t gone back and counted, there seems to be only a relatively very small number of people affected who have spoken out.
Whilst fully sympathising with these real issues we need to remember that they don’t appear to represent the average consumer, and as far as we know they represent what can only be called a minority of people. Like it or not, products are always designed for the average consumer unless a manufacturer identifies a niche market they can profit from by designing a product for a minority group with enough of them willing to pay a premium price.
Manufacturers will usually ignore minority interests and even if they empathise with their issues they cannot afford to alter their products which without doubt will raise their price and raise their running costs because a small minority of people have specific rinsing requirement. It sounds harsh but it’s reality.
Having said that, allergic reactions do deserve to be an exception to this rule as long as it can be shown that a significant percentage of their customers have a real issue. It depends on the percentage of sufferers and the degrees of suffering. I would like to know how widespread this issue really is as contrary to how my logical thoughts may come across at times I have a lot of sympathy for people affected I just try to keep the bigger picture in mind.
There are organisations dedicated to allergy sufferers which I will try to contact or at least research to get an idea how many people are likely to have a problem with rinsing efficiencies in modern washing machines. If enough people suffer then something should definitely be done and I’d be more than happy to be complicit in trying to achieve this. If it happens to be very rare that consumers have to resort to the kind of steps several of you guys have to take then I would have to say that it is unlikely that manufacturers would change their washing machines to use lots more water, or start rinsing in hot water.
I just had a quick look on Google to try and find some appropriate places to start researching this problem more and found this link Detergent Allergy Symptoms and Treatment. If you still maintain you don’t have any skin allergy or allergic reaction to washing machine detergent can you tell us what you do have, as it sounds quite unique ;-)
I seem to notice that a lot of people are affected by laundry detergent, but then say things like-I’ve changed by brand of washing powder or-I have to use non-bio. If it could be rinsed away properly, it wouldn’t matter what detergent is used. Very few people would be prepared to re-rinse and pour hot water into the washing machine.
I used to suffer the exact same symptoms described in that link and it says-After washing, rinse your clothes twice so that all traces of detergents are removed from the clothes. Which I’m assuming means: after your washing machine has finished, rinse the clothes all over again (twice)?
Washerhelp, thank you for understanding. I read in your comment:-There are organisations dedicated to allergy sufferers which I will try to contact or at least research to get an idea how many people are likely to have a problem with rinsing efficiencies in modern washing machines. If enough people suffer then something should definitely be done and I’d be more than happy to be complicit in trying to achieve this.
I don’t think many people are even AWARE that modern 21st century washing machines could be causing their skin allergies. Many times I’ve had red rashes appear on my skin mysteriously and never thought that my washing machine could be causing it until I found this page. After trying lots of different methods and faffing around, I decided to try the hot water trick and seeing is believing the warm water (estimated 40 to 45C) releases a LOT of soapsuds!
If customers could be given the OPTION of rinsing in lots of water and warm rinses (e.g. a button labelled-intensive warm rinsing), that would be marvellous. The instructions could carry a warning that running costs will increase. It’s no different to having a temperature control on an oven or heater the more you increase the temperature, the more it costs to run.
Hi Andy,
My take on this subject is slightly different.
Firstly the Electrolux group produced John Lewis machine, the normal 3 rinse cycles with a faster intermediate spin after the wash and between all the rinses is more through than some current MODERN machines on the market anyway. Alot of machines only do 2 rinses using less water for each.
However the Lux Group machines are let down massivley when extra rinse is selected, yes it may do 5 rinses but heres the rub there are no intermediate spins until after the third rinse and the they are much much slower thus counteracting the positive effect of all the additional water. Yes it probaly does make the machine rinse better in theory but in the real world the difference is negligable.
But here is the twist in the tale, my Bosch when rinsing with “Higher Water Level” selected will perform 4 rinses 1/3 up the door but spin after the wash and between all the rinses at 400rpm for about 1 minute 45 seconds. The result is clear rinse water in the fourth rinse and NO detergent can be extracted out of anything even when plunged into a sink full of hot water. However the standard rinse cycle on my Bosch fills to the bottom of the door glass and performs 3 rinses plus has a longer 2 minute intermediate spin speed after the wash and between the rinses at 800rpm. The result is not as through rinsing however better than current machines on the market and adequate for MOST people without any allergies to detergent etc.
If the Lux machines used more water on the extra rinse option then reducing the intermediate spin speed wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference.
The word “Reasonable” is a bugger as you say, MY version of reasonable rinsing is not being able to remove detergent by hand in water in the sink out of towels. But people have varying demands from what they expect from anything not just washing machines.
Something else keeps cropping up, the statement from Nikki about not having an allergy to detergent, if you react to residue in clothing you HAVE an allergy. My parents’ machine before the pressure switch adjustment rinsed awfully (3 rinses in 3-4″ of water), the amount of detergent left in clothing was stupid if anything was immersed in the sink the water become completeley cloudy and soaped up impressively. But neither if them have EVER reacted to this residue, so clearly have NO allergy. However I do have a servere case of dermatitis and eczema and am badly affected by detergent left in my clothing so cannot stand this type of rinsing, hence the old Bosch.
If this warm/hot water rinsing is such a good idea why don’t Nikki and WMUser connect the machines to the hot water supply via a TMV valve? If as Nikki says her Miele uses a sufficient amount of water to rinse (1/2 way up the door?) surely it would make sense? This could also make BETTER not PERFECT use of WMUsers extra rinse option. This would seem the obvious solution, but nobody seems keen to implement it. So long as the water is not above 40oC the machine should be perfectly fine.
The LG machine with Medic-Rinse only heats the FINAL rinse water to 40oC, not all the rinses, but it does seem to be a selling point rather than a useful feature as LG’s are not famous for rinsing that well anyway, reliability has been questioned many times also.
The only current machines I know of that rinse with warm water from the hot supply are SOME American top loaders and they are available over here too, so these are a serious option to consider but they are a pain to get into the average British home.
However I do agree with Andy about modern washing machines, manufactureres will always pander to the masses as this is where the most profit is they do not give a damn about the little man or the poor sod with allergies, profit rules OK. At least most modern washing machines have an adjustable pressure switch if you feel confident to have ago, so can be made automatically to fill higher on certain parts of the cycle if you wish.
All the best,
Oliver.
Oliver in response to-If this warm/hot water rinsing is such a good idea why don’t Nikki and WMUser connect the machines to the hot water supply via a TMV valve?
I *WANT* a TMV valve, but it’s going to be a *LOT* of aggro having it fitted. The washing machine is in a tight space and pipes need cutting back etc. If it were a 5-minute job, that TMV valve would have been fitted ages ago. I don’t know if Nikki intends to have one fitted, but it could make a difference as the water will be warm in all the rinses, instead of filling directly from the cold supply. With winter approaching, the mains water supply will become much colder, so having it warm to start will help a lot and maybe cut down on running costs?
If anyone is reading these comments, I strongly recommend using your washing machine when you have enough time be in and observe how it rinses on different settings etc. I don’t mean stand there and watch it for 2 hours!! I’ve noticed for example that the last rinse when the softener gets added will rinse for about 3 to 4 minutes longer than the previous rinses, so this rinse is a good one to add 1/3 drum of hot water. Secondly, the-quickwash re-rinse I perform, without detergent, I now select 30C and add the hot water, so this 30C main wash’ (without detergent) on the-quickwash now finishes faster compared to selecting 40C. By the time I’ve poured in the extra hot water (which is about 80C) to mix with the cold water in the washing machine, it’s now warmer than 30C, I guess about 40C to 47C?
I prefer to be in when the washing machine is on, having read reports on the white goods help site about glass doors breaking, washing machines being recalled and so on. Not only do modern machines rinse badly, they are also dangerous if left totally unattended!! I don’t take any chances.
Oliver, if your washing machine was performing them same high-level rinses in WARM or HOT water, you would notice a lot more foam. I’m talking about thick white foam. I don’t know the science, but the warmer water definitely rinses out a hell of a lot more soap.
Hello Oliver and everyone else.
I know this is not exactly related to the subject but after a few days of searching the internet high and low I’m running out of solutions and this is the only site on which I saw someone, Oliver Shaw, talking about a Siltal a good number of times, apparently they’re not as popular as other brands.
I have a Siltal WM, the user manual got misplaced and the person that used to operate the WM is not around any more. I can’t seem to find any user manuals on the internet for any Siltal WMs. Can you please help me with that, or at least some general user guidelines about programs and controls?
I know the chance of having the same model are slim but I’m hoping Siltal didn’t make a lot of changes from model to model and my mind can compensate if i have the basics to start from.
Thank you.
Hi Valentin,
My parents have the Siltal, it is a BI 1000X H/C. It is a nearly ten year old integrated machine. I have no idea where the manual is for it but I can give you instrustions how to work it. All Siltal appliances (even the modern ones are dead easy) are simple in operation.
Their Siltal has 4 options as follows:
Economy wash – Allows you to use a lower temperature on the themostat dial and extends the wash time accordingly so as not to compromise wash results.
Fast Spin – If selected performs a 1000rpm spin on cottons only, if unselected it is 650rpm. All slow spin positions are 650rpm.
Half-load – Reduces wash and rinse water, but leaves wash time the same.
The last one is on and off.
There are two dials, the first is the programmer (mechanical timer in this case, all modern ones are solid state control), This is split into 3 sections for cottons, synthetics and woollens. The bucket symbols are wash cycles, the shower symbols rinse cycles and the spirals (full spiral is long spin a broken spiral is short spin) are spin cycles, a bucket with an arrow pointing through the bottom is a drain only, a bucket with a line just below the top is rinse hold and the “o”s are stop positions. On synthetic and wool programmes it automatically leaves the load held in the final rinse water requiring manually advancing to the final spin to stop creasing, this is a feature not a fault.
The last dial is the wash temperature selector (thermostat) you must select the temperature you actually want as they do not work like other machines where the temperature has a limit for a set programme, it will perform a wool wash at 95oC if desired.
If you could post a picture of your machine it would be a great help, I am still very familiar with Siltals modern machines so would be able to help if I saw the machine. The modern ones are massivley different from my parents machine.
And yes finding these machines over here is like trying to find rocking horse Sh!t, very rare indeed. Good luck.
HTH,
Oliver.
One day I will probably replace my Zanussi-Electrolux with an old Zanussi ZFL1023 – this looks a good machine and it was made at a time when Zanussi were good quality washing machines, about 1989 – 1990?
My question is: If it has hot and cold fill inlet valves, is it possible to use a TMV and a “Y” connector so both inlet valves receive warm water from the TMV?
I’m getting tired of adding jug after jug of hot water into my my washing machine, but it’s the only way to get the soap out of everything. It would be nice to use an “old” washing machine that uses higher water levels and spends longer performing the rinses.
Hello Oliver,
I’m writing to thank you and to let you know thanks to your message everything was ok. The temperature dial was a bit of a problem first because the programs also have a default temperature as written on the front of the machine. Also, I wasn’t used to the mechanical dial which goes through all the programs instead of the one I left it at.
Thank you again.
Hi Valentin,
Glad to help, any more problems feel free to ask.
All the best,
Oliver.