If your fridge-freezer has developed a fault where the freezer has defrosted, or is not getting cold enough and it’s in a garage, and the temperature is very cold, it could just be that it isn’t suitable for putting in a garage..
.. A surprising number of fridge-freezers in the UK end up in a garage or in an outbuilding. However, did you know that many are not capable of running properly if the temperature surrounding the appliance drops too low?
When winter comes, many people find that their freezer starts to defrost. However, it’s also possible for unrelated faults to cause the freezer part of a fridge freezer to defrost or not get cold enough, so don’t automatically assume the cause is as described in this article
All refrigeration has what’s called a climate class rating, which states the minimum and maximum temperature the appliance is designed to work within. I believe the overwhelming majority of consumers have never heard of climate class so surely its the responsibility of retailers to advise customers about it when selling refrigeration?
Which fridge freezers can defrost in a garage?
It’s combined fridge-freezers. If a combined fridge freezer has only one thermostat (or sensor), which is sited inside the fridge section, it is likely to be affected by this problem. If the ambient temperature of the room it’s placed in gets to around freezing, then the fridge thermostat is likely to shut off. When this happens on appliances with only one thermostat the freezer also shuts off. If the temperature remains cold for several hours then the fridge thermostat will not come back on.
It doesn’t need to because inside the fridge compartment will be plenty cold enough. In really cold weather it is possible for the fridge thermostat to stay off for a long time. Whilst ever the thermostat for the fridge remains off the compressor will stop running and the freezer will eventually start to warm up, at least to roughly the ambient temperature of the garage, which although cold, is not cold enough for frozen food.
As a rule of thumb I would say that if you can set separate temperatures for your fridge and the freezer section I would assume there are separate thermostats controlling the freezer and therefore this issue shouldn’t affect your appliance. (Article continues below..)
What about chest freezers?
Chest freezers should not suffer from this specific issue because they have their own thermostatic control and do not try to control the temperature of two separate compartments. However, if the temperature in the garage significantly exceeds that of its climate class it can’t be guaranteed to work without any issues. Also, if there is little ventilation and or condensation it can cause premature rust and even damage to components inside. I have seen many chest freezers in garages over the years that seem to fair reasonably ok although modern ones may not be so well built.
Is this a bad design? – Problems below 10 degrees?
Manufacturers would say they design them to be installed in a kitchen. However, to me it does seem less than ideal to rely on only one sensor or stat to control two different parts of the appliance (just to save money). Many fridge freezers do have separate stats. As saving money is the only possible advantage I can think of it’s therefore presumably more likely to affect the cheaper range of fridge freezers.
Also, there are reports that many refrigeration appliances are not guaranteed to work properly if temperatures drop below 10 degrees centigrade. I would imagine many people have appliances in parts of their homes and even in some kitchens where the temperature can drop below 10 degrees during the night or – what about when on holiday in the winter when the heating may be left off or on low enough only to prevent freezing?
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If an appliance is installed in a kitchen and temperature drops during the night or holiday periods cause it problems I would say that’s a design issue. You cannot be expected to keep the heating on 24/7 to keep an appliance running. However, if installed in an out building or garage I would think you have much less of a claim other than why weren’t you asked at the point of sale where you would be installing the appliance?
What can be done about it?
A fridge freezer with only one thermostat operating inside the fridge compartment is not suitable to run in a particularly cold environments. If affected you need to either exchange it for a fridge freezer with two thermostats controlling the fridge and freezer independently, or swap it for a separate fridge and freezer, or you need to somehow stop the environment from getting below 4 °C (which is likely to be impractical).
Do I have any comeback if my fridge freezer doesn’t work in my garage?
The short answer is probably not, at least not with the manufacturer, you have placed it in an environment it is not designed for. If it was me I might be annoyed though that the person I bought it from did not enquire as to whether I intended to place it in a garage or not. I would argue this problem is in no way common public knowledge, but most retailers are well aware of it because they get called out to them all the time.
All manufacturers and aftersales engineers also know about this issue because they too get called out lots of times under guarantee and have to tell the customer there’s no “fault” on the appliance and it’s not covered under guarantee. Some might say it’s the responsibility of the shop you bought it from to advise at the point of sale that it is not suitable for fitting in a garage or other outbuilding because the companies (not necessarily individual sales staff) know that so many people place them there. I don’t know whether trading standards would agree or not.
At one time, Comet, one of the largest UK retailers of such appliances carried out a survey where they found that around 15% of call outs to fridge freezers were caused by them being placed incorrectly in a garage or another building subject to very cold temperatures. This being the case, I would have thought it common sense for all their sales staff to be instructed to ask any customer buying such a fridge freezer where they intended to site it but they never were.
This is not only in the customer’s interest but in the interest of the retailer as any customer affected by this problem is likely to be pretty upset about it. At the end of the day it’s unlikely that any retailer is legally obliged to check on these matters but personally I believe they should because it’s very common for people to site fridge freezers in their garage and they should know that.
If affected, is my appliance damaged, or will it recover if moved to somewhere warmer?
If the freezer is defrosting due to the room being so cold it switches off the thermostat inside the fridge – and the fridge freezer is only controlled with one thermostat in the fridge (no stat or sensor in the freezer) then no damage should be inflicted. The freezer has only stopped working because the fridge stat has stopped working. Once temperatures increase it should work normally again. However, make sure you don’t wrongly assume this is the cause of a defrosting freezer as of course faults can occur causing freezers to stop working too.
Could a fridge-freezer start to defrost in a kitchen during winter months if the heating isn’t on?
This question has been asked a few times and I am presuming yes, there could be a problem if you have a fridge-freezer with only one thermostat controlling both the fridge and freezer and you go away on holiday when its cold. I’m not sure how most people do it, but normally when we go away we leave the heating off but we’ve never gone away in winter. If you went away and didn’t leave the heating on low (say around 14 – 15 degrees) then potentially during prolonged cold periods if the ambient temperature in the kitchen drops low enough (around 0 – 4 degrees C or colder) the fridge thermostat or sensor is likely to shut off as the temperature in the fridge becomes cool enough.
This won’t be an issue for the contents of the fridge because of course it’s reached the correct temperature. But if the freezer compartment is also controlled by the stat inside the fridge then this will stop the freezer coming on too. Therefore if the temperature remained cold enough to not require further cooling inside the fridge compartment then freezer compartment will not get any further cooling and after sufficient time has passed will start to thaw out.
The chances are if this did occur then unless you have an appliance with a warning light or sound to indicate the temperature of the freezer has warmed up enough to adversely affect the quality of the frozen food you might not realise the food has partially defrosted compromising its quality.
My advice would be that if you think you could be affected then if any food inside the freezers seems a little off when you thaw it out to use then throw it away. If you do have a fridge freezer that sounds or displays a warning if the temperature has been compromised you should assume the food has been partially defrosted even if it is rock solid when you come back.
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Super Freeze is designed to rapidly freeze the contents of your freezer, for example if you want to freeze a joint of beef without getting ice build up within the tissue of the beef then it is best to use the Super Freeze setting. However having it on constant will eventually make the compressor burn out, as it will be working constantly. Which model of Bosch fridge freezer is it? It isn’t designed to work constant, especially not when the ambient temperatures are lower than those designed for the system. I would suggest moving the freezer to a warmer part of the house.
What an interesting read!… I’ve long been puzzled why a device for cooling stuff should not find it EASIER to work in a cold environment than a hot one.
I completely understand the case that Washerhelp has so eloquently made against fridge-freezers with only ONE thermostat. However, I believe there is more to this than has been explained so far (although I am in no way a Refridgeration ENGINEER – shame there’s been no expert comment from a qualified designer on here).
I think the problem of siting a fridge or even a freezer in cold ambient conditions is down to the DESIGN of the refridgerant circuit of the appliance and NOT just the on/off temperature control.
In words, it works like this – Refridgerant gas is compressed and warmed by the compressor (as your bicycle pump warms when used) ; The heat is then extracted by the condenser (the radiator at the rear of the appliance) by warming up the cooler ambient air around it – this condenses the high pressure gas into a warm high pressure liquid ; This is squirted through a small hole into a bigger pipe which expands the gas and greatly COOLS it (as an aerosol can would do) : this cold gas passes around coils (the evaporator) in the fridge/ freezer extracting heat before returning to the compressor in a warmer state.
HOWEVER, if the ambient air temperature around the appliance is very cold then it’s possible to OVER-COOL the liquid in the condenser, meaning it arrives at the expansion valve too cold. This means the expansion won’t work properly as designed and won’t reach the low temperatures required to cool the fridge/freezer. it IS possible to design circuits for low ambient temperatures, but most manufacturers optimise their appliances for household temperatures, above about 10 degrees C, mainly to make them affordable.
I don’t think the manufacturers or retailers provide enough information about their appliances for the general public to make the right choices. BEKO seem to have understood this in offering special designs for low ambient temperatures. I agree with Washerhelp that retailers prefer the status quo and continue to profit from making call-outs that they know won’t require any fixing and which won’t be blamed on them.
My thoughts on a fix?… Don’t add light bulbs inside the appliance (seems silly to ADD heat to a device designed to extract it – although I can see how it kind of works)… Don’t add a fan heater or central heating to your garage (seems silly to heat up all that space in a cold climate in order to keep stuff cool)… BUT, maybe put a ventilated enclosure around the condenser at the rear of the appliance to limit the cold air reaching it, and remove it in the summer (ok… this might be risky and cause other problems – this is where an expert view would be of value). Maybe, if you already have an appliance designed for household temperatures, you’ll just have to bring it inside or dump it!
Any thoughts on my ramblings?
Steve Arnell wrote, #85. December 21st, 2010, at 11:50 AM.
> My thoughts on a fix?
> Don’t add light bulbs inside the appliance
> (seems silly to ADD heat to a device designed to extract it
> although I can see how it kind of works)
Hmmm…. Well done, Steve ! For I’m not sure *I* understand his theory. ;-)
I suggested (#56. February 16th, 2010, at 6:29 PM. above) putting a light bulb *outside*, near the “ambient temperature” sensor / cooling coil (which workes for me).
@washerhelp – I’ve been away from this thread for a long time – sorry. In the meantime I’ve built two contraptions to solve the problem with my two fridge-freezer combos in the cold. So far, they work as expected, down to -14deg ambient.
To your question:
I’m working on an explanation as simple as possible… stay tuned.
@Steve Arnell – “…it arrives at the expansion valve too cold. This means the expansion won’t work properly” Good thinking, but just one thing: if that were the case, in low ambient temperatures the compressor would keep running and panting. Instead, it doesn’t. Which tells us it’s the thermostat directing it to shut off.
Temps in MIdlands went down to minus 18 – we have a
Beko CDA539FW in the kitchen. We do not heat the kitchen at all – and have not cooked at home for several days (Yuletide family visits) noticed freezer produce was soft)
Hoping this is the issue. Light still works, but temperature in kitchen still only 3 degrees at the moment. Might put the radiator on and see what happens today. (We never use the kitchen other than to wang something in the oven or put the kettle on – it’s annexed off the main house and requires a 4 foot double radiator on full blast 24/7 to keep warm in a normal temperate winter – but during this mega cold spell – I doubt even that would work – we can’t afford that sort of extravegance)
Pretty much certain it’s turned itself off – but we will see.
@Robin Clay…
Putting a light bulb near the ambient sensor? Domestic refrigerators don’t have an ambient sensor. The only thermo sensors on domestic appliances are inside the refrigerator to control the compressor switching on and off and connected to the compressor, which cuts the compressor off if it gets too hot.
@Paul… Yes it sounds like your problem is the low ambient temperatures, but it might be worth checking the climate rating of your refrigerator.
It seems to me that by reading this thread, no one seems to know exactly how a fridgefreezer works. I will try my best to explain it in the most simple terms, if at any point you don’t understand what I’ve said please post and I’ll try to explain it in better English. Being a refrigeration and air conditioning technician I didn’t really listen in my english classes.
So basically, there is a thermostat in the fridge part of your fridge freezer, because this is what you control most put of the two, when that is set to a certain temp, the refrigeration cycle will try to keep the *fridge* part at that temperature. So when the fridge rises slightly in temp, the compressor will start, pumping refrigerant through the condenser and to the evaporator in the *freezer* first, the refrigerant picks up heat from the freezer and moves to the *fridge* evaporator. The refrigerant is warmer in the fridge evaporator because it is not trying to get the fridge to the same low temps as the freezer. From the *fridge* evaporator it then goes back to the compressor and the cycle starts again. Once the *fridge* is down to temperature the compressor will cut off and stop cooling both the fridge and the freezer.
The reason you are having problems with your fridge freezer in the garage is because when the ambient temperatures drop below freezing, the *fridge* temperature will stay low as well, therefore the compressor will not start. However, this means that the freezer does not get any cooling either, hence why your freezers are defrosting.
There is nothing wrong with your fridge freezer if it does this, apart from the fact that the food in your freezer won’t be frozen, this is just what happens to fridge freezers in sub zero temperatures.
My advice is, if you are going to put a fridge freezer in your garage, get one that has designed working ambient temperatures that the fridge freezer will be working in, in your garage.
Any questions or comments please post
WillsRef.
@ Robin Clay….
Sorry, I didn’t catch from your earlier post that you meant that you’d put the lightbulb OUTSIDE. I think WillsRef has explained that this CAN’T be influencing a non-existent Ambient Temperature sensor. HOWEVER… I do wonder if it’s actually achieving what I was intending with my proposed enclosure (i.e. it’s keeping the Condenser warmer, so the refridgerant is NOT arriving at the Expansion Valve TOO COLD… It’s the ambient temperature AROUND the condenser that is important!!).
Having a source of heat INSIDE the fridge DOES makes SOME sense where “one thermostat is controlling the fridge/freezer in COLD ambient conditions”. If the fridge compartment can be warmed by the lightbulb above it’s lowest setting (say 4 degrees).. when it would otherwise fall below this to match the ambient temperature.. then the thermostat will switch ON the compressor and the freezer will stay frozen (The compressor will stay on until such time as the fridge compartment falls below say 4 degrees, when the thermostat switches it OFF). The lightbulb then continues this cycle by warming the fridge compartment again. The heat output from the lightbulb must always be greater than the rate of heat loss from the fridge compartment TO the garage… and this depends on just HOW cold the garage is! (PS – Somebody earlier did suggest over-riding the switch for the built-in compartment light so that it was ALWAYS ON – same basic idea!)
This may be a LOWER energy strategy than other solutions, such as warming the condenser externally.. or especially.. HEATING the WHOLE garage! However.. is still seems DAFT to me.. to be warming up an appliance designed for cooling things!
Footnote : Be careful that the heat output from the lightbulb inside the fridge compartment is not SO GREAT that when the ambient temperature warms up, the cooling capacity of the fridge WON’T keep up with the heat gain from the light!… Your food in the fridge compartment will get too warm.. The food in your freezer will frost up… and you’ll probably burn out (or trip-out) the compressor as it struggles, staying on continuously, trying in vain to cool the fridge and get the thermostat to switch it OFF!!
@ alfie…
Good point about the compressor!
Are you SURE that compressors don’t struggle when an upright or chest FREEZER won’t work in low ambient conditions? Surely, it IS possible they run until the compressor gets so hot that it’s OVER TEMPERATURE sensor (see comment from WillsRef to Robin Clay above) trips it off. I guess it would restart automatically when the compressor naturally cools down due to the cold ambient air around it?.. and continue cycling in vain. COMMENTS ANYONE?
@ WillsRef…
Your description of the fridge/freezer problem is simply elaborating on what Washerhelp has already explained… that it is the “ONE THERMOSTAT” that is the cause (when talking FRIDGE/FREEZERS!).
… but why DON’T some UPRIGHT or CHEST FREEZERS work in low ambient conditions?… STILL AWAITING a convincing ANSWER on that (at least.. One that’s BETTER than mine!..haha)
I CAN see how insulating PART, or MOST, of the condenser might work.. in the same way my proposed enclosure might work – by restricting the cooling effect of the cold ambient air on an over-sized condenser! (sized to work in warmer ambient conditions where it’s harder to eject the required heat to get the temperature conditions right for the refridgerant at the expansion valve).
Any EXPERTS out there who’d like to shed light and some REAL facts on this?
I purchased an Indesit fridge/freezer in June from Empire Stores online. Before I placed the order I read the ‘product details’. Nowhere was it mentioned that the product would not work in a garage in the Winter and the Indesit delivery man even delivered the appliance to my garage, still I was not told. I have complained to Empire Stores about lack of vital details in their ‘product details’ but they do not want to know! Does this give me the right to say that I was missold this fridge/freezer?
I Bought an Indesit BAAN134 Fridge Freezer from Argos in June 2010. I did this to help the environment by replacing separate fridge and freezer which here getting old but still working (even in cold temperatures I.E. -10 deg C) This BAAN134 Fridge Freezer started playing up in August 2010. The fridge and freezer went dead, light included, but after two visits the repair man seemed to fix the problem (well at least the light was on). But come the first cold snap of winter and it started playing up again. On contacting Argos and arranging an engineer I received a call from the engineer saying it was pointless him coming out to visit as the problem was the temperature outside the appliance that was causing the problem. On contacting Indesit I was told that as per the instruct manual (the one you get after you purchase the appliance) that it will not work in air temperature 14 deg C and Under. Whatever the reason for these Fridge Freezers being designed like this, surely Indesit and Argos are selling these Fridge Freezers that are not fit for purpose when selling them in the UK. Here in Aberdeen we are lucky to get above 14 Deg C for 6 months of the year and to expect people to heat the homes during the day and when they are away just to keep the Fridge Freezer working is totally ridiculous and wipes out any energy efficiency of the machine.
Tom… Welcome to the REAL world… (or should that be RETAIL world!). If you read the full thread above you will find explanations (although NOT a complete one) of why your appliance won’t work. ESPECIALLY read Washerhelp’s post #79 for the legal position.
IMHO these appliances really SHOULD be sold with these operating limits CLEARLY stated so that ordinary consumers know what they are buying. Personally I’m CONVINCED the retail companies continue to operate this way KNOWING they can make a killing in their service departments. They just blame YOU for not understanding the operating limits of your appliance.
As Washerhelp states – TEST CASES NEEDED. (Good luck!!)