Why can’t modern washing machines rinse properly?

Peter Kenyon
#1. September 4th, 2007, at 8:05 PM.

Rinsing Capabilities of Washing Machines.
We heartily endorse these conclusions. For thirty years we had a succession of Hotpoint top loading machines which produced clean washing with little detectable powder residue using Persil . Towels were clean, soft and fluffy. Terry nappies could be washed and sterilised using the hot wash. These machines used full measures of washing powder and large quantites of water. When the last machine was beyond repair we purchased a Hotpoint Ultima WF 860. This has the energy and water economies now deemed necessary. However we immediately noticed that the towels were hard and the bedding activated breathing allergies.

Washing powder was reduced to the absolute usable minimum, about a table spoonful for a full load. Subsequent experiments, with care not to overload the machine, extra machine rinses, rinsing in the sink by hand and subsequent spinning in the machine have produced the following conclusions :
• Towels retain the most powder residue, the water in the sink becomes totally cloudy even after two extra machine rinses. The fluffy texture previously produced cannot be replicated, even using a good tumble drier. Towels hung out to dry without any tumbling dry like board.
• Heavy cottons like sheets retain large mounts of powder residue unless rinsed in the sink.
• Light cottons like underwear retain less, but can still irritate unless hand rinsed.
• Artificial fibres retain the least powder residue.

The problem can be diminished by using Ecover liquid wash, but this is not suitable for all washes.
Ecoballs, or the Lakeland equivalent do not leave residue, but the fabrics are often harsh, and stains are left despite the use of the stain removing cream supplied. The application of this is a fiddly extra job.

Through the good offices of John Lewis who supplied the machine two Hotpoint engineers visited us, and were both surprised by the amount of powder residue revealed in hand rinses. The machine was deemed to be working satisfactorily by the manufacturers.

It would seem to us that controlled experiments under laboratory conditions are necessary to measure the amount of powder residue left in fabrics by modern washing machines. Those with skin or respiratory allergies are at risk from the present generation of machines which may be energy efficient and use little water, but do not rinse clothes effectively.

P & E Kenyon.

Mark Hill
#2. September 16th, 2007, at 8:51 AM.

I agree with the statement about not rinsing properly, I repair appliances for a living and have a 30 year old Hotpoint top loader myself, It is far more reliable than any new machines and far easier to repair. But the main thing is it washes and rinses better than any other machine I have tested, and I have tested them all. Also it will complete a 60 degree whites load in under an hour if the water going in is hot enough, and the towels are WHITE!! not shades of grey. My work jeans go in on a 40 degree wash covered in grease etc and cutting oil and come out clean after only 45 mins. The only down side to this is the water consumtion, but that is more than compensated for by the reliabity and longevity of the machine itself. I have many customers to
whom I have supplied reconditioned top loaders to replace new machines that just arent doing the job they are supposed to.

Mark.

paola ruocco
#5. October 19th, 2007, at 10:35 AM.

Couldn’t agree more about the poor rinsing of modern washing machines. When my fifteen year old machine died, I bought another and had vague suspicions that it wasn’t rinsing properly. Quite by accident, my suspicions have been proved correct by a newly purchased set of Ecoballs, which require no detergent. The first time I used the balls on towels which had previously been washed tradionally, I was horrified to find that the machine was filled with foam and I had to do two extra rinses even though I had used NO DETERGENT. To think that we were using these ‘clean’ towels to dry ourselves, when all along we were smearing ourselves with chemicals. My daughter has mild eczema and I am interested to see if this clears up.
I have been using the Ecoballs for a fortnight now and so far find them to wash perfectly satisfactorily, except for my dishcloths which tend to pong a bit, although a quick soak in a mild bleach solution seems to have solved the problem. It is true that the Ecoballs aren’t perfect – it doesn’t remove stains and you must use a stain remover – but at least my washing isn’t chemical-ridden.

kevin tripp
#6. October 24th, 2007, at 2:07 PM.

I have a 20 yr old Hotpoint 9520 which had no repairs appart from brushes in all that time. Whilst having to ultimately renew the drum bearings/spider etc I decided to get a new backup machine. I chose a Bosch WEA 24162 not thinking about rinsing efficiency. I am very unhappy with the rinsing of the Bosch. The washing smells stronly of detergent even after 1 or 2 additional rinses and using the extra water button. I completely agree with your opinions and am at a loss as how to pick a suitable machine. For me poor or inadequate rinsing is a major drawback which it seems all current machines suffer. I tend to wash all important things, towels etc in the old Hotpoint and socks, jeans etc in the bosch if I use the Bosch at all. By the way Bosch say its not a problem and I must use a certain powder to avoid undisolved powder which I noticed on the door seal. I’d rather have properly rinsed washing and forgo washing the car to be environmentally friendly.

Ruth
#8. October 24th, 2007, at 4:13 PM.

My son has eczema and therefore I need a washing machine that rinses well. I too have noticed that my aeg electrolux washing machine despite being a best buy still shows soap suds in the machine from a previous wash if I put a washing load in without detergent.
I usually have 2 washing machines due to having 3 children as it is easier to get through the laundry quickly. My new 9kg best buy Bosch washer despite only owning it for just over 3 weeks has now broken as the rubber door seal pulled away and got tangled in a pair of trousers! The company I bought this from have agreed to replace the machine but this model has now been replaced or discontinued . I am unsure which model to replace it with as this company do not sell siemens washers which seem to be the only other usually reliable brand that is reasonable at rinsing..

Nikki Jenkins
#10. November 13th, 2007, at 10:56 AM.

This Which article and the resulting comments have made me SO cross. About 10 or so years ago I discovered that modern automatic washing machines just do not rinse properly – full stop, end of story. I reached this conclusion following a long period of time, during which my young daughter developed eczema, I was scratching my shins raw to the point where they were bleeding, and our bed linen was covered in blood where my husband had scratched himself raw round his neck, chest, back and legs. I deduced this was caused by biological washing powders, but changing to non-bio made no difference. I then decided to test that the machine was rinsing by plunging a towel into a bowl of hot water – well, it was as if it had never been rinsed! Then followed about 6 years of arguing with Bosch that their washing machines didn’t rinse properly, engineers coming out – one idiot told me that the white soapy froth in the water was surfactant! I pointed out to him that surfactant IS soap, stupid man – we ended up with John Lewis replacing the Bosch with a Miele, but the problem is still there. The scientific fact of the matter is that to remove detergent from clothes you need two things : warm or hot water AND plenty of it. Modern washing machines have neither – you cannot buy a modern machine that rinses in hot water, and neither can you buy a modern machine that uses sufficient amounts of water.

So I have to spend hours of my precious time rinsing, rinsing and rerinsing laundry by hand, spinning it out in the washing machine, and then starting the process all over again over and over again to get rid of the soap. For the last 3 years I have been too busy to do this, the result is that all our clothing and linen has a massive soap build up again, we are scratching ourselves to death, and I now have got a huge problem once again trying to rid my laundry of detergent.

It is absolutely ridiculous – AND to add insult to injury I wrote to Which and told them about this all those years ago and they basically said they couldn’t understand what I was talking about, that their tests showed that modern washing machines were very good at rinsing.

What a load of tosh !

Sorry to be a party pooper
#11. May 21st, 2008, at 11:14 PM.

Sorry to be a party pooper but I am a bit concerned that some important factors are being left out of this discussion.

If I recall correctly, Which tests rinsing by measuring the alkalinity of the water (detergent is alkaline) and also comparing the results to a high speed 2,800rpm industrial spinner. Tests like this are good and have indicated rinsing is frequently poor.

However, some of the home tests posted here seem to judge rinsing by foam or suds. Suds must be present for genuine soaps to clean but suds do not have to be present for detergents to clean. In the case of a detergent, suds are still useful as an indcator during the wash that some active detergent is left over and therefore there is not a shortfall. But foam is actually a problem in the actual wash part of the cycle. It prevents proper wetting of the fabric, buffers the fabric from a physical agitation, limits the passage of dirt from fabric, etc. Foam is unwanted during the actual wash, so foam inhibitors are an ingredient of laundry detergents.

When the foam inhibitor gets removed by the rinsing then left-over detergent will create lots and lots of suds. They are usually thin and wispy suds. So paradoxically, as fabrics are rinsed and rinsed (particularly if they are rinsed a lot) after the washing part of the cycle then suds often increase.

Some posts mention how suds appear when washing towels without using any detergent at all. I agree there must be some detergent but it may be so little and be so dilute as to not be particularly significant. (Of course, the person with eczema can not tolerate even this much but many people can.)

—-

I might add an observation to posting by Nikki Jenkins (13NOV2007) in which Nikki takes her visiting Bosch engineer to task for saying what could be seen was only surfactant. To slightly over-simplify, not all surfactants are detergents. Laundry fabric conditioners are surfactants (usually cationic) but they are poor at cleaning. The majority of household liquid disinfectant is also surfactant. So are many hair conditioners. In fact, if a washing machine is foaming over due to incorrect detergent dosing then adding conditioner (a surfactant) to the detergent water (mainly surfactant) will dampen down the foam quite significantly.

—-

Just to make life a bit more complicated, some formulations of laundry detergent (Tesco Liquid Bio comes to mind) actually do contain quite a large proportion of genuine soap whereas something like Persil Liquid Bio contains much less. This gives washing machine “foam watchers” an extra challenge in order to determin whether rinsing has been done properly.

—-

All this is by way of saying that suds can be a very poor indicator of good rinsing. (And that knowing a little about detergents can cause misleading conclusions.)

May
#13. June 7th, 2008, at 12:54 AM.

I am fed up with the new general washer & I absolutely argree that modern washers are rubbish in rinsing. I had a Samsung silver nano last year which has a design fault of being too sensitive to balance the load in order to get to spin ( takes forever to finish one spin). Rinsing is terrible as well.

I changed to Zanussi 1227 & I am very unhappy with it as well because it uses so little water. Many times I took out the load to check after it’s been washed a few minutes in the washer, to my annoyance, my clothes or towels etc are not even completely wet, ( I tried half load to full loading the washer). It uses more or less same amount of water for the rinse cycles. So obviously how such little amount of water can do a proper rinse? Even if you are not bothered with the soap being removed or not, if you look at the water of the last rinse, they still look murky with dirt particles!

With the modern washers using very little water for rinsing, I noticed that in order to try to get so called efficient rinsing with little water, the washers are now programmed to have much longer spinning time in order to squeeze out as much water as possible from the load. With the laundry are fast spinned much longer; they get demaged or worn out more quickly; my new towels look as if they’ ve been used 10 years just after several washes!

Everytime I do the laundry, I have to spend lots of time to add extra water through the soap dispenser to increase the water level. I am trying to find a old generation washer which would do a more decent rinse even if it’s second hand.

Being a member of Thought Field Therapy (TFT)Association, I myself & many other fellow members have used TFT & various methods to test allergies for thousands of clients. Majority of people tested are found to be affected by most laundry products (detergent & conditioner) even though they are not aware of it at all, but their health are actually affected somehow. Few people get skin irritation by using them, but that doesn’t mean our health are not affected.

Just by smelling clothes which has been washed with laundry products, our sympathetic nervous system immediately show some signs of being negatively affected; (this can be measured with some equipment). How much worse when our skin are constantly absorbing the toxins from the clothes we wear or from the bed linens we sleep on, day in & day out. Eco Balls are found to be much more tolerable by the people tested. Ecover range is better tolerated than other common brands, but every individual is different. I use Eco Ball myself.

Many sources (eg: Dr Hulda Clark in her Cancer books) commented that most common personal & household products, including laundry products are cancerous or harmful. There are many internets sources give such informations.

We live in a unavoidable toxic world with toxic food & substances every where; the modern generation of washers add more nonsense & harm!!!

Teri NZ
#14. September 1st, 2008, at 12:50 AM.

I have recently had my 4 mth old Bosch front loader replaced with an Electrolux toploader and have had no end of problems with residual washing powder build up. It has got to the point now where after every load I have to remove half the load and re-rinse, then put in said remaining 1/2 load and re-rinse also. The kids’ school uniforms (navy) don’t even look clean for the start of the week because of soap build up. I’ve tried everything – dissolving the powder (only using 1/3 of recommended amount) in hot water for an hour while previous loads are finishing, using liquid wash detergent (which apparently is a no-no because it’s a low suds machine), putting it down the middle, on the bottom (before washing goes in) and around top, hot load, warm load, cold load! NOTHING IS WORKING!!! I too have a child with eczema and he is starting to itch like crazy. You would think with all this modern technology at our fingertips they could sort out a decent machine with a proper rinse cycle or a decent powder that doesn’t cost the earth. As for my water-aid eco friendly machine – well it’s not so eco friendly or water aiding at all because I’m having to run it three times per load to effectively rinse everything through.

A VERY unhappy Miele customer
#16. September 30th, 2008, at 10:39 AM.

18 months ago, much against my husband’s advice because of the expense, I purchased a Miele washing machine because having done my homework I decided that the brand was definately the best. I am bitterly dissapointed by its inability to rinse thoroughly (I never for one moment investigated this possibility as my old machine rinsed perfectly). Despite trying every type of washing substance, powder, tablets, liquid etc, it still fails to rinse. My husband who had slight eczema, is now having medical treatment in an attempt to reduce his symptoms. I daren’t tell him that I believe the washing machine is to blame or I wouldn’t hear the end of it!! Cannot believe that this brand, I paid £800 for my model, fails to live up to its reputation in this area. Sadly I cannot afford to replace the machine and have resorted to using the tiniest amount of detergent at the expense of best cleaning results.

matt
#19. November 8th, 2008, at 3:43 AM.

after reading this I bought some eco balls and i am wondering if they release peroxide after picking them up while they were wet made my hand burn (b-u-r-n) like i touched bleach has anyone else noticed this? help!

matt
#21. November 10th, 2008, at 11:31 PM.

they are the original brand eco balls and they do list chemicals i think(?) I wonder what the co ball company has to say about this (im in agony here)

matt
#23. November 11th, 2008, at 10:07 PM.

one thing i also dont understand is that it created suds

matt
#25. November 13th, 2008, at 3:46 AM.

i usually do a wash with nothing at all and it dosent create suds as soon as i took the eco balls out it stopped

Frustrated with technology!!
#26. January 2nd, 2009, at 12:45 AM.

I have to run the “Rinse” programme after the machine has finished, it means I get extra rinses and the softener is dispensed during the last rinse on the “Rinse” programme.

The disadvantages: the machine takes nearly an hour longer to finish and it increases the “wear and tear”, but I’d rather my laundry is rinsed properly.

The clothes feel softer and don’t smell so strongly of detergent like they used to before I tried this method.

Worth a try?

Frustrated!
#28. January 24th, 2009, at 5:04 PM.

Just by chance I have come across this wonderful web-site and have been so thrilled to realise that I am not the only one to be so disappointed with a washing machine which is useless at rinsing. Six years ago when I bought my Zanussi machine, I complained to the retailer (with no success) and to Zanussi about the ineffectiveness of its rinsing. After much correspondence between Zanussi and myself I was left feeling that I was an oddity,
and that I didn’t appreciate advances in washing machine technology. I also felt so frustrated that I could not convince Zanussi of the utter uselessness of the rinsing function of the machine. Although I have reduced the amount of detergent to the smallest amount feasable, I frequently have to carry out extra rinses, and on occasion I have been known to wash by HAND to ensure thorough rinsing. Wonderful web-site. Thank you!

Ann Green
#29. January 29th, 2009, at 4:30 PM.

I have had a Miele for about 3 years. I thought I was buying the best in the business, but its rinsing capabilities are risible; I have to give the towels no fewer than 3 separate rinse after the wash has finished, and they STILL feel like planks and need to be tumbledried. So do the jeans. I have to use the “water plus” button on every wash no matter what the contents, and I only ever use a single bubble of detergent. I have had Miele engineers around but they say it is working normally. Well, this normally isn’t good enough. I would change it but the blog tells us that Which? says none rinses properly. Lets all write to the manufacturers and tell them their products do not reach the standard required as far as rinsing is concerned. Go on. Do it. I have.

Lynne
#31. February 12th, 2009, at 2:43 PM.

My old energy ‘inefficient’ water guzzling machine finally gave up the ghost in January of this year after 15 years of excellent service (and great rinsing).

So, I purchased a A*AA Hoover model (It’s one of the models with ‘fuzzy logic’ that calculates the amount of water to use.) having read over 200 positive online reviews. No rinsing issues were mentioned so I didn’t give it a thought. However, the rinsing is awful. Even reducing the amount of detergent to as little as 15mls still required me to do additional rinse cycles because of excess suds. Not very energy efficient. I also noticed that the cold water going into the machine left powder or liquid residue in the drawer, meaning that some of this would be flushed down with the rinse cycle.

I tried loads of different UK marketplace detergents (including a couple of the new mega concentrated liquids that require tiny amounts, and found that they are no improvement on the regular type in terms of suds production) and the result was always the same. This worked out very expensive…but I was on a mission to find something that worked with this machine as I would have to live with it for a while.

Really cheesed off, I did some research and discovered this brilliant website where you happened to mention HE detergent which is produced for High Efficiency washing machines in the US. I gathered that HIgh Efficiency was their equivalent to our Energy Efficient machines. More research and I discovered that some ecological brands of HE detergent are exported from the US to the UK and are sold by ‘Green’ companies. I wasn’t on the lookout for any Biologicals, but they may be available too. Anyway, I ordered myself a bottle of low foaming HE, and it works! I have been using it for over a week now on all sizes and types of washes and haven’t needed to do one extra rinse cycle. The clothes etc. have come up great. And because it is less viscous, the entire dosage is washed from the drawer into the drum. I am so relieved to have found a solution.

So, what I’m left wondering is, why haven’t manufacturers of UK detergents revised their formulas in order to be compatible with the new energy efficient machines when this type is all that will be produced from now on? And why aren’t more consumers picking up on this issue?

Finally, I really wish that I had discovered your website before purchasing a new machine as its a great source of information.

I’ll still be doing my monthly maintenance wash!

Lynne
#32. February 13th, 2009, at 2:30 PM.

Washerhelp, I’m providing this link to an online booklet entitled High Efficiency Washers and Detergents – Working in Harmony to Save Energy and Water. It explains in full (with illustrations!) why regular detergents won’t work in modern machines. I forgot to include it yesterday. I don’t know if you’ll want to post it or not…but I was thinking that it may help some folk out.

http://www.cleaning101.com/laundry/HE.pdf

Margaret Rutland
#34. February 14th, 2009, at 3:29 PM.

I am looking for a new washing machine as my old (very old) Hotpoint 95620 is coming to the end, but it has been a wonderful machine, and rinses perfectly. I am wondering where the H E detergent can be purchased as i feel I will need it when l,hear all the complaints of non-rinsing machines. I wonder if the name of stockists could be published somewhere. Hopefully margaret Rutland

Cindy
#36. February 25th, 2009, at 11:41 PM.

I, too, am having trouble finding a washing machine that rinses well and am concerned that our government (United States) is going to make the energy star standards mandatory. After wearing clothing washed in “energy efficient” machines, I have to seek medical help for medication to counter my skin reaction.

Fewer machines are available that allow consumers to choose the water level they desire. We need to begin writing manufacturers about this problem–there must be many people who are itching and don’t know it is caused from poor rinsing in their washing machine.

Steve
#37. February 27th, 2009, at 7:39 AM.

Most people I have spoken to (moaned at) about powder stains agree that the rinsing on their modern machine is terrible. Powder stains seem almost inevitable and so I switched to liquid to avoid them.

Unfortunately this doesn’t mean they have been rinsed any better you just can’t see it any more!

A (somewhat inconvenient) possible solution that occurs to me is to hang around (or use rinse hold?) for the final rinse and use a large jug/kettle/hose to add more water (obviously don’t over fill it) to the rinse cycle(s) via the powder draw.

PS Liquids gives other problems (bad smells & scum) for which I had previously done 95C washes but I wonder following reading your article if I might be able to achieve a better outcome with Soda Crystals (possibly at a cheaper lower temperature). How much Soda crystals should I add ?

Steve
#39. April 3rd, 2009, at 1:27 PM.

Thanks for that Washerhelp – in particular with regards to the soda crystals which on the packet I bought only mentions what you would do with block sinks and drains. No mention of cleaning washing machines at all.

Do you think adding water to the final rinse would make a significant difference to the rinsing?

I believe my smell problems are worse due to the idiot who refitted my kitchen. I came home to have him proudly announce he had “rationalised” my drainage. Instead of a fairly standard and immediate U-trap with the hose connected to a 50cm drop it now trails 2m across the floor and up into the sink cupboard where it joins just above the kitchen sink trap. I have managed to raise the pipe around 4-6 inches behind the washer to form some sort of water trap, however the current arrangement where the trap as a long run before a 40cm rise seems to make water seeping back from the waste pipe into the machine inevitable. This adds stagnant water to the problem if the machine is not used very regularly.

I would have put the old waste route back but he had cut off the old waste pipe and concreted it up.

The problem is now compounded as I now have a dishwasher joining the sink outlet. The only solution to water seeping back that I see is to put a join for both dish and clothes washer just at the combined waste pipe’s exit point from the house.

Oliver Shaw
#41. April 15th, 2009, at 2:47 PM.

I bought a Hotpoint Aquarius WF530T washing machine when I was 17 and moved out on my own, since moving back with my parents late 2008 just before my 20th birthday I have had this machine plumbed in on the 3rd storey of our house. Having done this the computer has gone wrong, but the main point is poor rinsing even with extra rinse pressed. I have had dermatitis and eczema for many years and had virtually no problems with it when we had an old Servis when I was a young child, this machine put water HALF way up the door to rinse and did this three times un like the terrible machines of today which only do two. How on earth can two 10 litre rinses be as good as three 29 litre rinses on the Servis? My mum and dads whirlpool is no better it fills for each rinse and the clothes soak up all the water and ends up rinsing with an inch of water in each rinse.

I am so fed up with my Hotoint I am getting a new machine one that lasts more than two ans a half years and rinses properly.

Could you please help advise me which machine rinses to a proper standard or do I have to get a second hand machine dating from before my self to get rid of this horrible skin irritation!

PS. Its marvellous to find some like minded people who know the truth about our new race of ecoliogically sound rinse compromising washing machines!

Oliver.

Cindy
#42. April 15th, 2009, at 4:11 PM.

My old front-load washer (a Maytag Neptune) used about 25 gallons of water per load and rinsed 3 times with an extra rinse possible for a total of 4 times and I loved it. I replaced it with 2 different front-loaders and had skin issues wearing clothing washed in both of them–due to inadequate rinsing. After much discussion with representatives from Maytag and Whirlpool, I discovered the water standards are extremely tight on the new front-loaders. So, I purchased a top-load Maytag Centennial washer. You can choose the water level you want; and you can also choose extra rinse for every load. The top-loaders don’t have as many features and aren’t as “pretty” but at least they rinse my clothing well–using about 40 gallons per load. There are other brands that do the same, but be careful because some of the top-loaders are energy efficient and don’t allow you to choose your water level. Best wishes to you!

Cindy

Rachael
#45. April 18th, 2009, at 12:39 PM.

Thank goodness I found this website before I called an engineer. My Bosch washing machine (2 years old) is dreadful at rinsing on delicate wash programmes. On a wool wash, everything comes out smeared with liquid detergent – and stains untouched. I recently bought detergent tablets because they were on offer – not only was there always residue on the clothes, but the tablets were sometimes only partly dissolved. It seems that there is not enough water in the whole wash cycle. I have the option to add extra water and / or an extra rinse to other programmes, but not delicates, so they get washed twice. When I first got the machine, I was pleased with how short the programme cycles were, but now I have to add all the extra functions, I am back up to 2 hours plus for a wash. I lived in the US for a few years – 25 minutes in an old laundrette top-loader and my washing was spotless.

Roy Bailey
#46. April 18th, 2009, at 4:17 PM.

Our Bosch machine rinses very poorly even on super-rinse. If I put a newly washed facecloth into a bowl of water the water goes very cloudy as the detergent comes out, Obviously the towels are the same but of course they don’t get immersed in the same way.

Oliver Shaw
#47. April 20th, 2009, at 4:04 PM.

Since e-mailling you last I have replaced my dreadful Hotpoint Aquarius with a Bosch WFF2000 reconditioned washing machine. Not only does it rinse properly, it does 4 RINSES with water one third up the door for each, but is quieter than my Hotpoint ever was. It has short programmes each no more than an hour and fifteen minutes, my clothes are far cleaner even though they used to be washed for way over two hours.
It spins alot slower than the Hotpoint and my clothes are much much drier.

It would seem if you want a washing machine to wash, rinse and spin properly you need a reconditioned machine about 12-15 years old or so! And it was a snip at £145.00 with a 12 month warranty.

My clothing is not hard with detergent any more and my eczema and dermatitis has started to go away. My towels are actually soft and not like sandpaper any more!

If you have skin problems irritated by washing detergents old machines are the way to go, they actually rinse in water!!!

Oliver Shaw.

Oliver Shaw
#49. April 22nd, 2009, at 2:13 PM.

Could not agree more!!!

Oliver Shaw

Frustrated with technology!!
#50. May 5th, 2009, at 9:08 PM.

I think I have the ultimate solution!

If your washing machine is not rinsing properly, even if you press the “extra rinse” button, you may want to try this:

Buy a length of hose sufficient to reach from the cold tap of your kitchen sink into the soap drawer of the washing machine. Also buy the right adaptor for the tap or mixer tap.

After the first rinse with a spin (on some delicate programmes, it may not spin between rinses) when the washing machine starts filling for the next rinse, use the hose to fill the washing machine drum up to 1/3 of the height on the door glass. Using more water than 1/3 is wasteful – and if you are on a water meter – using more every time would be expensive!

Now let the washing machine continue as normal. I don’t advise doing this on the final rinse if you are using fabric conditioner as you will dilute it too much.

If you’re still experiencing skin rashes, stop using fabric conditioner for about a month to rule that out.

I hope this helps. I’m sure it’s worth a try if detergent residue is causing havoc with your skin allergies?!

Oliver Shaw
#51. May 8th, 2009, at 4:34 PM.

Frustrated with Technology:

You call this the ultimate solution, I wouldn’t want to hang around waiting to fill my washing machine on the rinses with a hose pipe. It is a method but washers should already put enough water in without human intevention.

Plus my washing machine is in a third storey bedroom with no sink in sight!! My parents machine in the kitchen is filled with a kettle as it too cannot put enough water in for the wash or rinses!! I cannot use their machine as it leaves so much detergent in the washing. My previous Hotpoint was better but not by alot, then the computer failed after only two and a half years, just what you want when you spend £500 on a washer.

I have already replaced my Hotpoint with a reconditioned machine (Bosch WFF2000) that puts water one third up the door in the rinses and does it four times. All I have to do is press “Higher water level” or it will do three with water a quater up the door.

You say water half way up the door is a waste, I disagree as I had no trouble with my skin 15 years ago when we had the Servis Quartz 1000, three rinses half way up the door.

We are on the water meter but I would rather pay money for the water than be itching and scratching myself raw!

The Bosch only cost £145 with a 12 month warranty, bought in Halifax, West Yorkshire from a shop that specalises in reconditioned Hotpoints and Bosch!

Hope this helps with the rinse issues.

All the best, Oliver.

Frustrated with technology!!
#53. May 13th, 2009, at 6:32 PM.

I suggested 1/3 height as families on water meters would end up paying a fortune, as the washing machine is used more often. Today’s living is too expensive as it is. I find one rinse 1/3 height works for me (along with the other rinses using less water): the clothes no longer feel rough and don’t smell of detergent like they used to before I tried this method.

If you find one rinse 1/3 height is not enough, maybe try 1/2 the height and maybe repeat again on the next rinses. I know it’s inconvenient having to fill your machine with extra water, but if it stops your skin allergies then it’s worth the aggro. Have a towel ready to wipe any spillages on the floor.

Be aware that today’s washing machines are electronically controlled and if you add too much water the electronics may “think” the machine has overfilled and will start pumping out the water immediately.

If you are not near a tap, maybe fill a watering can from elsewhere, without the round sprinkling head attached.

If you add soap powder to the drawer, pour the water into the pre-wash compartment so you don’t end up flushing down bits of powder that get left behind.

The only other suggestions I have are: 1. If you are buying another washing machine, subscribe to Which? and look for a washing machine or washer-dryer with a good score for rinsing. 2. Why don’t we all complain to both the washing machine and detergent manufacturer’s about this problem? The more people who complain, the better.

Oliver Shaw
#54. May 17th, 2009, at 3:00 PM.

Frustrated with Technology:

Your comments are quite right, that adding water to your washing machine on the rinse cycle will help. This is clear evedence that they do not use enough water.

When I had my Hotpoint Aquarius I contacted them about my machines inabillity to rinse. The stupid woman in the call centre said she would check to see if all Hotpoints machines were like this, she said they were, I mean do you really need to be a weatherman to know when it is p155ing it down!!!

So I asked what Hotpoint were going to do about it, such as compensation towards me having to buy a new washing machine, short answer…..NO! Instead a very understated apology, which she bregrudginly had to give.

They did not care their useless washing machine had cause me no end of dermatitis and eczema, the stupid woman made me feel like an oddity and said Hotpoint machines were good at rinsing, I would like to know what sort of washer she has, I bet she hasn’t got a Hotpoint!!!

I even suggested they relaunched a machine that they used to make that use high water levels the Aquarius Diamond springs to mind (they will still have the blue prints, they won’t destroy those), they said it was a bad idea as this machine was bad for the environment as it was a “water guzzler”, why do we need machines that use little water we hardly have droughts as it rains most of the year in the UK. This environmental tosh is a selling point, playing on peoples caring side!

Going back 20 years who had heard of washing detergents aggrevating their skin, no body thats who! Because machines back the used alot of water, in the case of the Servis we had back then about 130 litres per cycle. The other week on the television doctor Hillary Jones was saying about more and more cases of detergent induced dermatitis due to it being left in our clothes. These modern washing machines are breeding a skin complaint, how long will it be before manufacturers see it is their fault and bring out some machines that rinse properly?

Have you ever noticed that every time you buy a new washing machine it does a rinse less e.g. Tricity Bendix 4 rinses, Siltal 3 rinses, Hotpoint 2 rinses. just an example of some of the machines we have had over the years. How long before 1 rinse? So it is not just low water levels but less rinse cycles also. Plus you don’t see “Super rinse” and “Higher water level” options on machines any more.

My reconditioned Bosch WFF2000 (4 rinses and higher water level option) has cleared up my dermatitis and eczema, it shows machines from 12 years ago do rinse properly. This machine uses about 100 litres per cycle. My Mums Siltal washing machine uses 49 litres per cycle, you cannot even see the water in her machine, not even on rinse, I am not slating this machine 10-15 loads a week, 8 years old and still giong strong!!

Hope this helps you,

All the best

Oliver.

carbon-careful
#55. May 25th, 2009, at 3:05 PM.

Use Ecover liquid, only a small amount. If that’s no good then I suggest that when the cycle has finished you do another wash without any detergent – on my machine there is a “refreshing wash” cycle.

Oliver Shaw
#56. May 25th, 2009, at 8:07 PM.

Carbon-Careful?

I have tried Ecover liquid and other supposebly natural alternatives to main-stream washing powders and found them to be as useful as a snooze button on a smoke alarm!!!!

I have to use skin ointments and creams and Ecover etc. does not remove them from my clothing, also if not properly rinsed out they still irritate my skin even non-bio! Also natural alternetives do not contain bleach which cause bacteria growth in you towels making them smell, also cause black slime in your washing machine. Unless run your machine empty regulally on a 95 degree wash.

I use Ariel biological powder which does remove the skin treatments very well even with “Short wash” pressed in on my machine, so long as it is properly rinsed out it is OK. I have tried all detergents and am allergic to the lot you name it I’ve tried it!!

Like I have said before washing machines using less water is a selling point, it has no effect on electricity usage what so ever, I do not care about the environment, I love my water guzzling Bosch to bits as it rinses perfectly well, and has cleared my dermatitis and eczema. The only point to saving water is if you are on a water meter, which we are. So what is more important saving water for a country that rains most of the time or not itching like a flea bitten cat? You decide!!

All the best

Oliver Shaw.

Frustrated with technology!!
#59. May 30th, 2009, at 11:25 AM.

I’ve just realised something…

Compare laundry detergent with dishwasher detergent and you notice one major difference: dishwasher detergent does not foam (or if it does, it’s a very very small amount), compared to laundry detergent which foams excessively if you use slightly too much and/or wash too few items.

Nearly all new washing machines don’t rinse properly and I believe the reason is not JUST down to less water being used during rinsing and fewer rinse cycles. I reckon laundry detergent should be re-developed to rinse off fabrics easier and not create any foam. If they can already make dishwasher detergent to not foam excessively, why not do the same with laundry detergent?

Talking of dishwasher detergent, if new dishwashers continue to use less and less water and the detergent remains on our crockery, would that cause a health hazard? New washing machines are a health hazard to people with sensitive skin, as you can read above!

Oliver Shaw
#60. May 30th, 2009, at 7:10 PM.

Frustrated with Technology:

Foam does nothing in laundry detergent unless heavily soap based, it is there for the consumer only, so leaving it out would have no effect on rinsing, only to the eye. The chemicals that irritate our skin are still there eg. enzymes, surfactants etc. Foam hinders the cleaning power of detergents by cushioning fabrics and preventing the weave of the fabric openning up properly due to it restricting movement.

Another big difference between the two detergents are laundry detergent contains OXYGEN based bleaching agents whereas dishwasher detergent contains CHLORINE based bleaching agents such as Domestos etc. also would remove colour from coloured clothing!!

As for dishwashers not rinsing properly, don’t worry detergent is removed from crockery very easily. Crockery does not absorb detergent like fabrics do. Dishwashers rinse more than you think, ours does two on Economy 50 and three on Intensive 65 (good job I kept the manual for that one!!!). There is no trace of detergent left on anything even after Economy wash.

There is deffinatley a niche in the market for someone to invent a washing machine and washer-drier that rinses properley with a choice of water levels say 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, up the door on wash and rinse also make it have a choice on the number of rinses say ranging from two to five. “Shaw’s Good Old Washer Co.” sounds good don’t you think!!This way people have a choice of how they want their laundry rinsing and washing. But make the default settings the current low water usages so it would sell and could also be A rated, the last bit suggested by Andy Trigg (Washerhelp), comment 48. Also make these machines mechanically timed as solid state timers are unreliable, often why modern washing machines break down!!

All of our washing machines that have lasted well have been mechanical, whereas the solid state broken down within two years!! We like ‘em simple up ere in Yorkshire don’t we Andy!!

All the Best

Oliver Shaw.

Oliver Shaw
#62. June 1st, 2009, at 3:16 PM.

Andy:

A point that I forgot to mention, alot of washing machines suds-lock during the intermediate spins these days. Meaning that detergent is not pumping away properly and carrying through to the next rinse. However only modern machines seem to do this, and less rinse cycles, often two is the norm means even worse rinsing.

My therory on this is not enough water in the rinse phase to dilute the detergent properly and spin it away, also modern machines spin very fast during the rinses about 800-to 1600rpm, whereas older machines do about 300-400rpm. None of our old machines suds-locked. The Siltal is a bugger for that, its rinsing is bad anyway but even worse because of it suds-locking. I have heard of Mieles doing this, not what you expect from the top quality end is it? I would never ever have a Miele as the rinsing is so poor, shame really as I always fancied one. Oh well at least I can keep my old reliable Bosch going!!

All the Best

Oliver.

Oliver Shaw
#64. July 10th, 2009, at 5:13 PM.

Andy,

These machines are not blocked, I have already had them in bits! The problem is instead of starting to spin slowly, they are going up to about 650rpm straight away, meaning the pump cannot cope. So it foams up the detergent and then will not go it just throws it down the door and around the tank until it starts filling for the next rinse!

My old Bosch starts spinning at about 100rpm and takes it from there up to about 400rpm, this machine never suds locks.

All the best

Oliver

Oliver Shaw
#66. July 10th, 2009, at 7:04 PM.

Hi Andy

I mean the intermediate spins ie. between the rinses to supposably clear the water from the load from the previous rinse!

This is the programme sequence if it helps….

Wash – intermediate spin – rinse – int.spin – rinse – int.spin – rinse-int.spin – rinse – final spin.

All the best

Oliver.

Dave
#67. July 11th, 2009, at 3:49 PM.

Hi Oliver / Andy and all readers.

Thanks for referring me to this board Oliver: most interesting.

This suds-locking things is def for real Andy: my LG is a real bugger for it.

In the case of the LG the problem is caused by a combination of factors:
1. in the wash phase of the cycle the duration is excessive (about an hour on most programmes) and the agitation is very vigorous (which is good). This means that vast amounts of foam are created on every wash.
2. When the wash ends the LG spins (it does NOT spin at all with water in as you suggest many modern ones do) but it spins before any rinses start. This results in a very unpleasant sound and you can hear the motor labouring greatly and the drum slowing down as huge white tides of foam flow down the door.
3. when the rinses start there is, as I have so often moaned about on the hot fill board, insufficient water, so the rinses turn into 2nd, 3rd and 4th wash phases with the soap that’s left.

I get round this quite easily though – as mentioned in a post higher up this board I run water into the soap drawer if I am around to do so, and I do this on the first rinse or sometimes even at the wash phase (like the old “dilution rinse” that Hoover’s used to have). If I am not likely to be around when the rinses start I Select “rinse ++” which on the LG gets water up to about 1/4 up the door and also heats up all the rinses to 30 degrees to help dissolve the detergent better. I have to say that this is pretty good rinsing, but the drawback is time (and energy use). On a 60 degree white wash the standard time is 2h12m, but with Rinse++ selected it’s 3h50m.

Oliver – mum has a Miele Prestige PLus and with the “water plus” selected it washes in water that just reaches the bottom of the door glass, does a dilution rinse (adds water to the wash water up to 1/3 up the door) and then does all it’s rinses 1/3 way up the door too. Mum had a Hoover Electron 1100 (same as mine) before that – we bought hem at the same time when I first left home in 1983 and mum’s finally died 2 years ago, mine last July. Both of us dislike the new machines we have but Hoover are now so unreliable that we decided not to get them again. However, since mum started using the “water plus” she says the Miele is as good as the old Hoover except that it only takes cold water so it costs more to run. If your Bosch ever packs up completely you might like to reconsider Miele for a model with “water plus”.

Oliver Shaw
#68. July 11th, 2009, at 4:57 PM.

Dave

I’m aware of the “water plus” feature, but have heard that Mieles also suds lock, actually from what I’ve found out near enough all modern machines do it. Also have read copies of instruction manuals for Mieles and they only do 2 rinses, my Bosch does 4.

Washers just arn’t as good as they used to be!!

On the Easy-care (synthetic) cycles my Bosch uses the dilution rinsing so as to avoid excessive creasing to the fabrics. The Bosch rinses absolutley perfecly so long as “Higher water level” is selected.

The worst rinsing I have come across is on a very reliable Siltal integral washer, my mums to be precise, the quality is brilliant but the rinsing that famous Yorkshire word sh1te!!!

I know a good engineer that should be able to keep the Bosch running for some time yet, aprenticed by a nice fella at Yeadon!

HTH

Oliver

PS. Post for you in Hot valve blog!!

Oliver Shaw
#70. July 11th, 2009, at 7:31 PM.

Andy

I was unaware that modern machines spun with water and or detergent in them to aid cleaning. Sounds like a stupid idea as that really will fill the drum and tank with huge torrants of foam, and that WILL decrease rinse efficiency. No wonder you was unsure what I mean’t by intermediate spins!!

This sounds really bad coming from a 20 year old but I preferred the way things used to be not the way they are now! Everytime they supposably redesign the humble washing machine I am always sceptical of what has happened. Lets face they are deffinatley not improving them, quite the reverse infact!!

I am deffinatley going to hang on to my Bosch forever if possible it may look old fashioned but it does a far superior job to the modern machines, I just can’t begin to tell people how good it is compared the new “improved” washers!!

HTH

Oliver

WhatMatters
#71. July 14th, 2009, at 3:24 PM.

An alternative to laundry detergent already exists and is claimed to work equally well. I’m talking about the “Stainz r out” laundry sheets. The makers say these are made from natural ingredients and also claim they can replace conventional laundry detergent.

I’m wondering if products like this are the way forward? Do the ingredients rinse out of your clothes easier than detergent? Yes they are expensive, but if they clean properly and rinse away easily, maybe other manufacturers will make them?

david harris
#72. July 16th, 2009, at 3:58 PM.

Oliver,
the recon Bosch sounds interesting, but I can’t find anyone selling them. Could you say where you got it?

Oliver Shaw
#73. July 17th, 2009, at 12:25 PM.

David,

My Bosch WFF2000 was bought at the “Washer Shop” in Halifax West Yorkshire!! Got it for £145 with a 12 month warranty and free delivery. Be wary of the new Bosch machines though as the rinsing is rubbish, look for one about 12-15 years old if possible, other option Hotpoint of similar age they were built properly back then!

WhatMatters – Unless these products contain any sort of bleach they will shorten the life of the washing machine-inparticular the drum spider. To counteract this you will be doing a hell of a lot of maintenance washes with ORDINARY bleach containing powder.

HTH

Oliver

WhatMatters
#74. July 18th, 2009, at 11:01 PM.

Making an effort to be environmentally friendly is a good thing. But now it’s doing the reverse!!

In this page you read that people are being forced to fill their washing machines with extra water to rinse properly which defeats the purpose of saving water. If washing machines rinsed properly without using excessive amounts of water you achieve the goal of being environmentally friendly. On the other hand, if you use so little water to be “environmentally friendly” that people end up filling their washers with too much water for a decent rinse, again you defeat the purpose.

I’ve heard of people having problems with their toilets blocking because they don’t use enough water to flush, so they have to flush more than once and end up using more water than they were meant to save!

If we want products to work properly and be environmentally friendly at the same time, manufacturers need to thoroughly test them in the real world. Also appliances, cars etc need to be more reliable so you don’t have to dispose of them so often. I don’t see many “environmentally friendly” manufacturers making their products as reliable as they were 30 years ago.

Oliver Shaw
#75. July 19th, 2009, at 2:11 PM.

WhatMatters:

Could’t agree more!
Being environmentally friendly (oh it pains me to write that) is not just about what an appliance consumes but how it was made, transported etc. It would have less inpact for a washer to do 4 rinses 1/3 up the door and it last for 26 years ( Daves Hoover Electron for instance), Than a cheap rubbish Merloni (Indesit/Hotpoint etc) rinse twice with 2″ of water in the drum and it only last 12 months!!

Its not as if water does not get replenished often enough, I mean it must rain 13 out of the 12 months we get in a year! Plus we pay enough for it with water meters and such like.

I’ve never heard of the toilet problem, but very interesting all the same, will ask people I know who have recently had their bathrooms refit to see if it a major problem! I know I’m sad!!!!!!

HTH

Oliver

WhatMatters
#76. July 19th, 2009, at 6:43 PM.

I think nearly everyone who reads the comments will agree that not using enough water does more harm than good.

The problem about toilets not flushing properly is due to people using water saving devices such as the “Hippo water saver” in older toilets. I’m sure most new toilets are better designed, but as with any new development there are often pitfalls eg using less water in washing machines = poor rinsing! They even admit on the “Hippo water saver” website not to use the water saving device in toilets installed after 2001, what does that tell you?!

If we are not allowed to have washing machines use proper levels of water to rinse away all detergent, will they tell us to use vinegar instead of detergent? It’s getting ridiculous now, we’ve never had taps run dry because people use “too much” water.

Simon Smith
#77. July 19th, 2009, at 11:14 PM.

Where can i buy High efficiency front loading detergent from within the UK that actually cleans and works? I use SA8 by Amway but get fed up of having to order it through a distributor. Persil, Ariel, Surf and all the others just foam too much

Oliver Shaw
#78. July 20th, 2009, at 7:23 PM.

WhatMatters,

Ah, see what you mean, we have the 6 litre (water efficient) toilets and seem to have no trouble, flush well infact. I remember the Hippo water device, another usless sales tactic trying to get peoples gullable side!

Like you say water will NOT run dry it rains too much!

I’ve heard of people putting white vinegar in the conditioner compartment so it goes in to the last rinse saying it kills the detergent, it must smell bloody awful, bedding humming of vinegar and towels what a pleasent thought!

Simon:

The HE detergents such as Tide HD are just like Ariel, surf etc. They have a different name because in America there is two types of washer, Top-loading high water use that uses a high sudsing detergent and front and top loading HE machines that us low sudsing detergent eg the Tide HD. All our detergents such as Ariel are low sudsing and designed to work in low suds front loading machines.

All the best,
HTH,

Oliver

WhatMatters
#79. July 27th, 2009, at 4:56 PM.

Oliver, I’ve been researching using white (clear) vinegar in washing machines. Many websites with information on white vinegar and laundry claim that it really does neutralise the detergent (vinegar is acid and detergent is alkali). On one website, it says the smell of vinegar disappears when the clothes dry.

To the lady who wrote comment #16: filling up the washing machine with extra rinsing water about 1/3 up the door (when your husband is away from home) should do the trick. Maybe try the vinegar idea too? Doing this should hopefully make his eczema clear up after a few months. Good luck.

Oliver Shaw
#80. July 27th, 2009, at 7:44 PM.

Hi Whatmatters,

I’m aware of the chemistry, I’m in the right indusry for that!!!
I have heard of it working, but if washing machines were made properly in the first place you should not need to add vineger! Aluminium does not like acidity and thats what the drum spider is made of, plus expensive bit to replace!

To comment 16, High level rinsing and vinegar behind your husbands back, why not come clean (no pun intended), you wern’t to know when you bought the machine, after all you would expect Miele to rinse perfectly, especially at them prices!!

HTH

Oliver.

Simon Smith
#81. August 2nd, 2009, at 1:20 PM.

Where can I buy a Hotpoint top loader second hand? Model numbers Electronic De Luxe 9600, 9604 and 9605? The hotpoint wma30 is absolutely rubbish at rinsing unless i use ecover liquid. However i need to use bio as cleans better. Even a twin tub would be better than the modern rubbish we have no. Failing that I suppose it will have to be an Amercican top loading washing machine. Any recommendations greatly appreciated.

Oliver Shaw
#82. August 3rd, 2009, at 3:25 PM.

Simon,

The only place I could think of getting a second hand washing machine is a back street retailler, such as our local one in Halifax called the “Washer Shop”. Any particular reason you want a top loader? The old front loaders rinse perfectly well such as a Bosch WFF2000, Servis Quartz, Hoover Electron, Old Hotpoints. Well anything from just before 1992 should put water half way up the door to rinse and would usually do 4 on the cotton cycles, sometimes 5 such as old AEG’s (very hard to come by though).

My Bosch dates from about 1996 and does 4 rinses with water a third up the door for each.

American top loaders use water in excess, also most of them now are high efficiency and people complain about the rinsing just as we do about our energy efficient models. Also American top loader spin very slowly about 650rpm and use a hell of alot of elecrticity as there is so much water to heat and they are rated “G” for wash, so they do not wash as well as the frontload machines either! You are probably better off with a second hand front load machine than a new top loader IMHO.

Twin tubs are another issue you will not find a good one from the 70s or 80s unless you know someone that has one and are willing to part with it for cash! There are a few new ones about but they are cheap Chinese made jobs (mainly plastic), called a Thompson I think, that will not last. They are for VERY light usage indeed. I havn’t seen a twin tub machine round here for donkeys years!

HTH

Oliver.

Simon Smith
#83. August 4th, 2009, at 11:20 PM.

Thanks Oliver been really helpful. Ill even try ebay lol.

Oliver Shaw
#84. August 5th, 2009, at 7:35 PM.

Simon,

Your welcome!

Oliver.

Gary Pendlebury
#85. August 18th, 2009, at 5:01 PM.

Our Hotpoint WML540(G) rinses perfectly with any load, I did an overloaded towels wash after being on holiday approx. 7 or 8kg of bath towels, bath sheets, hand towels etc. and I used the Cottons+ 60+ programme (2 hours). and even after a sudslock in the first spin, the final rinse water was almost clear.

I think the Hotpoint washer have the best way of rinsing, which is slow tumbles in low water level then very fast tumbles in high water level, which in our machine fills almost half way up the door!

Even if the Mini Load option has been selected (which reduces wash & rinse time aswell as rinse water) the rinse is just as good, even without softner (I don’t use softner on towels).

So yes I do think there is an issue with rinsing in some machines but definitely not in the new Hotpoint WML range.

Oliver Shaw
#86. August 19th, 2009, at 5:15 PM.

Hi Gary,

That doesn’t sound quite right, a modern Hotpoint is designed to fill to the bottom of the door glass on the rinses not half way up the door. The pressure switch must be slightly out of adjustment, although this is NOT a bad thing. I had a Hotpoint WF530T for 2.5 years and the rinsing was awful even with extra rinse pressed, but the water never went beyond the bottom of the door glass. Also sudslocked on ALL intermediate spins. There again I do not rate any Merloni product, well not now anyway!!!

HTH,

Oliver.

Gary Pendlebury
#87. August 19th, 2009, at 7:07 PM.

Hi Oliver,

Well it only seems to fill nearly that high in the Fast Wash 60C cycle since I overload it, but in the cottons+ 60C it is only just under that. The 1000rpm interm. spins between the rinses help a lot with the rinsing in the Cotton’s programmes otherwise I think rinsing would be poor. Yeah I was told the pressure switch had gone dodgy by people on YouTube (HooverAC110 is my channel). I just think that the rinsing is much better than in my old Hoover Performa AC110 as you couldn’t even see the water! but still it did 4/5 rinses in cottons!

I’m surprised you have trouble with your Hotpoint rinsing as I know others with Hotpoint’s an they never say the rinses is terrible, but I know how it is with skin problems as I have a slight one too, allergic to some detergents and because our previous washer did so many rinses it makes me use Extra Rinse all the time.

Thanks for commenting back to me

Gary

Laura Mitchell
#88. August 20th, 2009, at 10:40 PM.

Dear Washerhelp
I have ordered a Miele WT2670 1600rpm washer dryer which is coming next week and am looking forward to it. I don’t suffer with any allergies or skin conditions so the rinsing shouldn’t be an issue. Although I may put Water Plus on if I feel that it doesn’t have enough water and I won’t be having washes which are too sudsy. Detergents such as Ariel Excel Gel can get very sudsy iof too much is used. I discovered this in my Hotpoint WD42O washer dryer. If you know of the rinse water levels then please let me know as it would be very good to be aware of this before the machine arrives. Like I said above the machine is due for delivery on 28th August.

And could you or someone else please tell me about its tumbles that it does as I would like to know. I am thinking that the tumbles are 13/2 for the cottons programme but could also be the same on other programmes. I think that good and fast tumbling can help improve wash and rinse performance. Please could you help. Many thanks.

Oliver Shaw
#89. August 21st, 2009, at 7:11 PM.

Hi Gary,

No problem. Thats right it should only fill that high on fast wash 60 and super wash 60, but only on those 2 programmes the rest should just touch the bottom of the door, the synthetic cycles use a touch more, sorry I should have been more explicit! I don’t have the Hotpoint any more, got a reconditioned Bosch. The intermediate spins should be 800rpm on cottons and 500rpm on synthetics and fast wash 60.

Laura Mitchell

Re: tumbles.

If it tumbles too fast the washing will not fall correctly in the drum and will just cling to the outside thus providing poor wash performance. Also tumbling too fast on rinses will whip up a hell of alot of foam, Hotpoint machines do this and then cannot spin it away properly. So the balance has to be right, Bosch from 15 years ago and IAR Siltal from 8 years ago seem to have it perfect, cannot comment on Miele, never owned one (or ever will) or had me hands on one!

HTH,

Oliver.

Gary Pendlebury
#90. August 22nd, 2009, at 11:55 PM.

Hi again Oliver

Ah cool yes thought Fast Wash 60C rinses should be high as they are only quick and as for Super Wash 60C well my machine doesn’t have it. The new Hotpoints don’t have that programme anymore. The synthetics programme is a fair bit below the fast wash 60C rinse water level on mind which is good too. Shame you don’t have the Hottie anymore but the reconditioned Bosch sounds great, what model is it infact I know someone on YouTube which has a recondtioned Bosch I think. You might not know me from there though, my account is HooverAC110. As for the intermediate spin speeds well Hotpoint have changed the Cottons to 1000rpm and the Synthetics 600rpm. Fast wash 60C is a little faster at 800rpm, this is only between the rinses though because on all programmes (which do spin after the wash) are all at 600rpm.

Thanks again sorry for the delay though :S

Gary

Oliver Shaw
#91. August 23rd, 2009, at 1:59 PM.

Hi Gary,

My Bosch is a WFF2000, about 15 years old or so. Sorry mate not me on YouTube, never been on that site in my life!! It would appear they have changed Hotpoint machines yet again, they are consantly peeing around with them and making them even MORE unrelaible. Thats why I haven’t got it anymore. It never washed that well anyway, never as good as my Mums IAR Siltal (8 years old), whereas the Bosch does!

They do keep increasing the spin speeds on the Indesit based machines to try to get a better rinse but all they are doing is wearing everything out alot quicker, and doing very little for rinsing. After about 800rpm the extraction rate tales off some what, the difference between 800rpm and 1000rpm is a thimble full of water! The difference between 1000rpm and 2000rpm is 4 table spoons full of water, so not worth the bother! The Bosch spins at 400rpm after the wash and between the rinses for about a minute, but uses alot of water so gives a perfect rinse on any load as it does 4 rinses 1/3 up the door, and it NEVER sudslocks, it would appear all modern machines do this.

All the best,

Oliver.

cath
#92. August 25th, 2009, at 12:47 PM.

Well, I had 2 Hoover washing machines that, between the two of them, lasted over 27 years. No problem whatsoever with smell or grey slime. Didn’t even know it could be a problem.

My new machine is a Bosch and grey slime is a mega problem, though I haven’t changed my habits at all. I don’t use fabric conditioner, don’t add too much powder (I am mean if anything) and do the occasional 60 deg wash. I guess it must be the poor rinsing that is to blame.

So, does anyone know if the new Hoover machines have developed this problem? Have they sacrificed the rinse to be eco-friendly?

I would put up with the noise (if they are still noisy), anything to escape the grey slime. I only changed to Bosch because the Hoovers were noisy and my Bosch dishwasher lasted 20 years. I just hope this machine doesn’t last 20 years.

Oliver Shaw
#93. August 25th, 2009, at 8:02 PM.

Hi Cath,

This sounds as if you are not using the correct amount of detergent. Are you using a bleach containing powder, eg. not a colour friendly type? Also are you doing alot of low temperature washing, as this will cause slime also.

To help remove the slime select a 90/95 wash with bleach containing powder, such as Ariel biological (using the correct amount of course). Do not use liquid or colour powder as none will contain bleach. This is called a maintainence wash and should be carried out monthly. If it is really bad using a specialist washer cleaner such as “Maytag Affresh” will also reduce the slime, it is avaliable at the 4washerhelp link in the left hand list at the top of the page.

The lower water level on the wash phase is not going to help with slime build up, and as you say the lack of water in the rinsing cycle does not flush the machine through properly. If this machine has “Aqua plus” it may be worth while having it constantly selected.

I also have a Bosch (15 year old) and have no trouble with slime but I always wash at 60 and regulally do a maintainence wash.

Sadly your Bosch may last a few years they are still built quite well, though not as well as they used to be. Also Hoover will have reduced water in the rinse to be eco-friendly, all manufacterers have. No modern machine will rinse like the old ones did!

HTH,

Oliver.

David
#94. September 3rd, 2009, at 2:19 PM.

Our 21 year old Hotpoint 96700 Top Loader has just expired having given no previous trouble at any time in it’s long life. The repair man says the gearbox may have seized and of course these are now obsolete. In our opinion this is a superb machine of which this is the third we have purchased. They have all lasted into double figures. Nothing else washes as white or rinses as clean. My wife was a chronic eczema sufferer and these machines have played their part in her relief from allergies. Does anyone know where a replacement gearbox or machine may be found? Any of the original Hotpoint Top Loaders will be acceptable.

Oliver Shaw
#95. September 5th, 2009, at 2:27 PM.

Hi David,

The gear box has been obsolete for sometime now, unless there are any kicking around in back street retailers, but I wouldn’t have thought so, but all is not lost…..

Try taking the gear box to a car garage and see if they can repair it. This is a shot in the dark but well worth a try! Another option is to get a specialist to make you a new one, it can be done but will be expensive, there isn’t that much inside so making a copy shouldn’t be too hard!

As regards buying a Hotpoint top loader, I haven’t seen one in 20 years! Nor have I seen a reconditioned one either, but if I come across one I will let you know via this site, but don’t hold too much hope out though!!

HTH,

Oliver.

richard
#96. September 18th, 2009, at 4:28 AM.

There is a simple way to get more water into the drum for better rinsing.Every washing machine contains a water level transducer to which are connected tubes from the drum.When the water reaches a certain level in the drum,the pressure transducer activates and sends a signal to the electronics to close the water inlet valve.

However there are ‘adjustable tuning slugs’ on the pressure transducer so that the level of water can be adjusted.I experimented on a Hotpoint and manage to get the drum completely full of water!.So careful how you make adjustments.

I am a retired electronics engineer and would love to design a washing machine complete with PID temperature control,brushless motor, etc etc.but I’m afraid the cost would be prohibitive.

WhatMatters
#97. September 24th, 2009, at 2:24 PM.

Sounds good Richard (comment 96). Most of us have no idea how to alter the “adjustable tuning slugs”. I would be too scared to take the lid off my washing machine!

Making a video on how to do this and uploading it to youtube might help, but explained in plain English.

One trick that most of us could try on modern washing machines is to take advantage of the pre-wash. Add your powder or liquid detergent directly in the drum and a tablespoon of soda crystals in the “main” compartment of the soap drawer (not the pre-wash compartment). The pre-wash will allow the clothes to soak up the detergent solution. After the pre-wash finishes, the machine will pump out the water and may perform a short spin. On the main cycle (at the temperature you chosen), the clothes will still have plenty of detergent absorbed and the main wash water will facilitate later rinsing. Pressing the “extra rinse” button or whatever it’s called on your machine will also help when you try this pre-wash experiment. I’ve only tried this once, so don’t know if it affects cleaning performance.

Note that on old washing machines the pre-wash would be followed by a boil wash, so check carefully that your machine won’t boil your laundry to death!

It’s a shame that we have to resort to drastic measures to achieve proper rinsing. If we don’t, our clothes will still contain detergent and this causes no end of trouble. I sometimes wonder, after reading these comments, if allergy sufferers have no idea their condition can be traced to the washing machine not rinsing properly?

Oliver Shaw
#98. September 24th, 2009, at 5:20 PM.

Hi Richard and Whatmatters,

I’ve heard of this before and is a viable option, but if an incorrect adjustment is made it could cause a serious flood. Which may not be covered be home insurance as it would be the homeowners fault. So I would say extreme caution is needed.

However I do agree with what you both say, I am very tempted (and have been for a long time) to adjust the pressure switch on my Mums Siltal as rinsing is so bad.

In all fairness selecting a prewash and adding nothing or soda crystals to the main wash probably will affect cleaning drastically as the main wash will ineffect be the first rinse. There will be hardly anything in the main wash to facillitate cleaning, it may work on light soil only though? Never tried this but please do come back with your experience Whatmatters.

I have found when it comes to laundry soda crystals are just plain snake oil! They do not work as they say, plus prolonged use may damsge the aluminium drum spider in your washing machine.

All the best,
HTH,

Oliver.

WhatMatters
#99. September 28th, 2009, at 4:04 PM.

Oliver
The pre-wash “trick” seems to work and during the main wash programme I still notice plenty of suds. If you put slightly too much detergent in or don’t put enough laundry in the drum my machine is prone to foaming too much. Not tried this with stained laundry, but you have to treat stains before washing anyway. If anyone copies this “trick” (comment 97) and finds it cleans well and improves rinsing (or not), I would be keen to find out.

I’ve noticed rinsing is better and I’ve not had to fill the machine with extra water during the rinses, but have enable the “extra rinse” option every time I use the machine.

I know some people who have used soda crystals for years and never had any problems. The packet would not say you could use them in washing machines if they were known to cause damage. I know they soften water and are well known for removing grease and oil stains. There is a page on this site about soda crystals and washing machines:
http://www.whitegoodshelp.co.uk/wordpress/soda-crystals-and-washing-machines/

Could you make a video on youtube on how to adjust pressure switches for higher water levels, in Plain English? It would be wise to warn viewers of the risks involved lol!!

Cheers.

Dave
#100. September 28th, 2009, at 6:38 PM.

Hi Folks,
Many of you will have seen my regular posts on the Hot Water Valve boards (both of them) and will know about my LG washer.

Not having actually read much on this board until Oliver pointed out to Michelle on the “I want a machine with a hot valve” board that her post on Rinsing should have been on here, I was unaware 3 days ago, when I fiddled with my LG’s pressure switch, of the post a bit further up this board about the “adjustable tuning slugs”.

That aside, I have made 2 interesting discoveries about my LG WM1444TDS washer, which may be of use to anyone else with thai machine and infuriated by it’s diabolical rinsing.

Discovery number 1 was that the “Duvet” cycle, which I always use to fill the machine up as it uses the pressure switch not the stupid and useless “fuzzy logic” sensors and controls to supposedly detect when the laundry is properly wet, has only TWO rinses if left to run right through.

Discovery number 2 was that, having adjusted the pressure switch, to get rinse water to come 1/4 up the door glass, I can now wash non-fast coloureds (40 degree wash) on “Duvet” and not only does it wash in water that comes 1/4 of the way up the glass, but it also rinses in the same level of water and, surprise surprise, it gets the washing pretty much soap free (almost as good as the 26 year old Hoover I used to have) in just TWO rinses.

The only down side to this is that I still have to switch back to cottons to get a 60 degree wash, which means that the rinses, although they now fill up to 1/4 up the door, are all interspersed by spins which take positively eons to start due to “balancing” so the cycle takes hours as always.

Interestingly the Duvet wash doesn’t seem to bother with “balancing” but just spins and be b*ggered to the noise.

I’m very pleased by this development, but must point out to anyone with this (or any other) machine and thinking of making the same adjustment that it will undoubtedly invalidate your warranty, so don’t do it unless you are prepared to accept that fact.

WhatMatters
#101. September 30th, 2009, at 5:57 PM.

I forgot to mention something that’s really obvious… over 2/3’s of our planet Earth is WATER. In fact, 71% of the Earth’s surface is covered by water (look on Wikipedia for water, it currently says 71%). Also the oceans are miles deep! I’m sure many people know about the “water cycle” too. In plain English: water never disappears, it comes back!

So why are we being told off for using “too much” water? Really, why? Washing machines need LOTS of water to rinse all of the detergent out of fabrics, which they did fine before the do-gooders told the washing machine manufacturers to use less water.

You never heard of so many cases of allergies years ago, nowadays most people are allergic to something! It’s obvious there’s a correlation – less water in rinsing = more allergies!

Okay, the MAIN wash doesn’t need as much water because it’s being heated, obviously more water being heated uses more electricity. But during the rinse cycles the extra water uses no more energy because it doesn’t get heated.

I can keep mentioning obvious things forever, but the last one: I don’t remember old washing machines having an “extra rinse” button, because they rinsed properly anyway. Am I right in saying that old (1970’s and 1980’s) washing machines did not have options for rinsing better?

Oliver Shaw
#102. October 1st, 2009, at 11:43 AM.

That is totally Correct!

Oliver.

Simon Smith
#103. October 7th, 2009, at 12:23 PM.

Has anyone tried Amway SA8 laundry detergent and if so do they think it is good? I have found you need to wash at 50C to get stains out even stains like mud whereas Persil or Ariel get mus out at 30C or 40C.

Also I have noticed some of my clothes have shrunk in the wash lately but I do not why. They have been put on the appropriate programme and spin cycle. Could detergents cause shrinkage?

Helpusall
#105. October 11th, 2009, at 9:28 PM.

The allergy UK website has a tips page which suggests that you re-rinse your clothes when the machine finishes. Look on the page under the section about \”Windows mirrors and glass\” in the last paragraph of that part – yes that *is* typed properly and *is* under \”Windows mirrors and glass\” and it does indeed mention that new washing machines now use a lot less water than the older ones
http://www.allergyuk.org/fs_handyhints.aspx

lets hope that link works forever and always links to that page, if it changes please post an updated link.

If nobody likes the idea of filling their machine up with extra water or trying other ideas mentioned above such as tampering with the washing machines \”adjustable tuning slug\” whatever that is and so on and so on…… the simplest way is to follow the suggestion and run the rinse cycle a second time. Yes it means waiting longer but worth it!

WhatMatters
#106. October 20th, 2009, at 10:35 PM.

It’s always the simplest solutions that work best. I would think every washing machine made in the past 10 years can be forced to re-rinse, whether it involves switching off and turning the dial back to the beginning of the rinse cycles or something else.

Anyway… I thought I’d try this “easy” method and re-rinse. I used the rinse-hold option on my machine, so the clothes are left in water until I’m ready to advance the programme: I turned the selector to “off”, added the fabric conditioner, turned the dial selector to the “rinse” position and choose the correct spin speed. Switched on and let it do the rinses again and perform the final spin.

So far so good
Clothes no longer feel like sandpaper, there’s no smell of detergent perfumes, no little white marks on the clothes and no traces of foam on the door seal or inner door glass. What a difference!!

You may want to forget my previous suggestions and other drastic ideas mentioned previously. Anyone can do this re-rinsing and it really works (preferably if you have “rinse hold” on your machine, it reminds you to re-rinse). Also you won’t need to press the “extra rinse” option (or whatever it’s called on your machine). Ironically, I found that by NOT pressing the “extra rinse” button, the machine spins faster between the rinses (without sudslocking), I have no idea why.

Only one thing to be careful with: if you have to select the spin speed when you re-run the rinse cycles, be careful not to spin your delicates too fast e.g. curtains or they won’t look nice afterwards!

Readers – please let me know if this works after trying it for a few weeks. One last thing: fabric conditioner can also chemical sensitivity, something to consider if you’re having allergic reactions to laundry and chemicals.

Thanks for reading and good luck.

Oliver Shaw
#107. October 21st, 2009, at 7:02 PM.

Hi Whatmatters,

Glad that a simple solution works for you. The only downside will be time I guess. What make and model is your machine please. How many rinses does it perform in total with the re-rinsing?

My 15 year old Bosch spins slower between the rinses with “Higher water Level” selected, but still rinses better because it does 4 rinses 1/3 up the door, whereas it does 3 rinses with 2″ of water in the bottom of the drum if not. My feeling is the water is removing the detergent opposed to the spinning, so the machine does not have to work as hard.

Correct about fabric conditioner, I stopped using it and my skin did improve, there again it is only nicely scented grease!!

The intermediate spins do not play as much as a part in the rinsing as you think, if there is not enough water to remove the detergent in the first place, the spins will sudslock. The residue takes a hell of alot of diluting in order to remove properly, the spins then aid the process.
E.g.

4 Rinses 1/3 up the door with 300-400rpm spins rinses properly.
3 Rinses with 2″ of water and 800rpm spins is as close to not bothering to rinse as you will get.
On the synthetic cycles it does a Dilution rinse and then 4 rinse 1/4 up the door but seems to rinse as well as the 1/3 cotton cycles.

Anything past 800rpm is pointless as the water removed is negligable, the difference between 800rpm and 1000rpm is a thimble full. Difference between 1000rpm and 2000rpm is 4 table spoons all for full loads, basically not worth the wear and tear and expense.

All the best,

Oliver.

WhatMatters
#108. October 22nd, 2009, at 12:17 AM.

Oliver

My washing machine is a Zanussi/Electrolux, not sure of the exact model number. Like all newer washers, it won’t rinse properly unless YOU force it to rinse properly. Just pressing the “extra rinse” does NOT make it rinse properly. With extra rinse selected on the cottons cycle, it performs 2 extra rinses – 5 total – don’t get excited… there’s barely any water in each rinse and the stupid machine only starts spinning very slowly AFTER the 3rd rinse has drained (but no suds-locking occurs). Rinse 4 is followed by a very slow spin, rinse 5 has the softener added, followed by the final spin of 1600 rpm, unless you chose a lower speed.

I now follow my method on comment #106 every time. The rinse-hold option uses lots more water and pauses the machine, so that extra water probably helps enormously? Re-rinsing (without the extra-rinse option) gives me a total of SIX rinses with faster spinning between ALL the rinses. It doesn’t take that much longer to finish and most of today’s washing machines are larger capacity anyway, so you can get more washing done each time.

The synthetics cycle sudslocks on the rinses: for some unknown reason, it will spin briefly and the pump will stop before it’s had chance to pump away all the soapy water, then it refills and the soapy water gets transferred over to the next rinses!!!!! Another good reason to re-rinse.

One very important point I forgot to mention earlier… overloading the drum will prevent proper rinsing and impair cleaning performance. I doubt re-running the rinses will help if you put in too much washing. Bulkier items (e.g. washable coats) need lots more room to move about.

I believe the washing machine manufacturers will NEVER make washing machines rinse properly any more. The eco-friendly people would not allow them to use lots of water for rinses. If you require proper rinsing, it’s a do-it-yourself job unfortunately. Does anyone like the idea of wearing clothes saturated with left-over detergent chemicals, even if you’re not allergic?

Oliver Shaw
#109. October 22nd, 2009, at 4:20 PM.

Hi Whatmatters,

I agree about the “Extra Rinse” option making little difference, when I had the modern Hotpoint, it added one rinse so it did 3 in total and as it suslocked and as you say carries all the soapy water through the rinse cycle, it was pointless. I used to manually re-run the rinses as you do, letting it do 3 on the main cycle and then doing another 2 or 3 (depending what was in there) to clear the soap. And the damn thing STILL did not rinse properly. I also did half loads to help rinsing even with all the extra ones it still didn’t rinse properly. My skin was so bad the doctors wanted to put me in Hospital.

Thankfully it packed up and decided to buy the Reconditioned Bosch WFF2000. I guessed buying a new machine would be a daft idea so I took a punt on the Bosch and I have had it a few months and all seems well. It does rinse properly.

I also agree about washing machines never using sufficient amounts of water again. I know they say “what goes around comes around” but I fear this will not be the case with all these environmental do gooders, for which I have NO time for. Thanks to these idiots there is all the people here with SERVERE skin complaints. Its just not fair, there is no choice anymore, we are forced in to these stupid modern machines whether we like it or not. This is by far the biggest amount of sh1te I have come across in almost 21 years on this planet.

All the best,

Oliver.

WhatMatters
#110. October 23rd, 2009, at 11:39 AM.

Oliver, I’m sorry you nearly ended up in hospital because your previous washing machine was so useless at rinsing. I’m horrified that modern washing machines can be so appalling at rinsing the result is havoc for allergy sufferers like yourself. Even re-rinsing made no difference in your case! Maybe you could have sued Hotpoint?

I would have hoped that a rinse-hold followed by re-rinsing would be a “universal” solution to everyone reading these comments, but unfortunately it seems there is no “universal” solution! What else can be done? Legal action maybe? If enough people did go down the legal action route, it could be the turning point for the better?

I can think of one more thing only: wash a load as normal and use rinse-hold (if possible). Then you could run another wash programme (on the same wash load) that you know uses more water (e.g. a wool programme, if it uses more water) – run it WITHOUT detergent and that could work? Its final spin may be slower and the washing would need a faster spin again if you’re using a tumble dryer. Obviously that’s a *lot* of hassle and it would take a long time just to get one wash load done, but if it rinses better, it may be your only option, sadly!

About the “extra rinse” button (or whatever each manufacturer calls it), when they added this option it’s obvious the washing machine manufacturers knew their washing machines weren’t up to par on rinsing using the default options, so they came up with this “extra rinse” option. How long have they known about poor rinsing?

Oliver Shaw
#112. October 23rd, 2009, at 4:24 PM.

Hi Whatmatters,

That was the doctors idea not mine, my felling it was a OTT (I refused to go). When they don’t know what they are talking about they will always come out with some bullsh1t!! At the time I also used non-biological powder (Fairy) and they ruled out that would be affecting my skin, luckily I am the suspicious type and did suspect it, that is why I re-ran the rinse cycle, which helped a bit, but still wasn’t curing the problem.

Whether I use bio or non-bio I am just as badly affected, as it happens I use either Ariel bio or Persil bio and am now not adversley affected, as it is rinsed out properly in the Bosch.

Re-rinsing should help most people as in my case there were other factors affecting me, particullaly hand soap etc. I now use special products and have “fairly” normal skin. But as soon as I use something I shouldn’t I will pay the price. It was by far the washing machine that was affecting me most though.

Regarding Hotpoint I did speak to the useless call centre giving them a piece of my mind, they were useless and did not give a damn about me as I am the minority and no-one has ever complained about rinsing before. See post 54 above for more info. I never thought of legal action, but its too late now and I am greatful to be feeling alot better.

Yes you are right about the “Extra Rinse”, “Super Rinse”, “Sensitive Care”, “Pure Rinse”, “Intensive Rinse”, “Deep Rinse”, “Medic Rinse”, “Rinse++” and “Aqua/Water Plus” options being evedence of manufactureres know their machines do not even come close to rinsing properly. They won’t admit it though. These options sound great, and they all deliver the same level of nothing, its amazing how many words can mean the same thing. Not one of those options can make a machine rinse as well as they used to, not even half as well. Pathetic isn’t it.

Like you say the hassle of getting a modern washer to rinse properly is unbelieveable, these are supposed to be labour saving devices. Its harder than getting out the dolly tub, rubbing board and soap (still have a rubbing board and posser knocking around in the loft!). At least you can rinse properly with that method!

Thanks for your concern,
All the Best,
Oliver.

Oliver Shaw
#113. October 23rd, 2009, at 4:28 PM.

Hi Andy,

Sudslocking……..

Both the IAR Siltal and Hotpoint are not blocked, they pumped fine. They just time-out before all the soapy water has had chance to drain. Bad programming and intermediate spinning. The Bosch will not sudslock and cannot due to programming etc.

They cannot be fixed as you put it, unless you fancy reprogramming them for me!!!

HTH,

Oliver.

Oliver Shaw
#115. October 23rd, 2009, at 8:16 PM.

Hi Andy,

I agree some machines could be partially blocked, I am as guilty for not cleaning the filter as often as I should too! Yes right about the Hotpoint filter, stupid place, nobody even knows it there as it says self cleaning pump!

All the best,

Oliver.

Marion
#116. October 23rd, 2009, at 9:50 PM.

H. This is a really interesting website and I will try some of the suggestions above! I have just left the following message on thewhitegoodshelp.co.uk (many thanks for your reply,Andy -much appreciated) and it is reassuring to hear that I probably am not totally paranoid about laundry not being rinsed properly and being totally irritated by having to rinse clothes by hand in the sink…

“Hi,I hope you can help with possible suggestions as to why my laundry comes out of my washing m/c unrinsed,despite it going through the rinse cycles and even through ‘extra’ rinse cycles.

Over the last 2 years I have had 5 m/cs, 4 of these being brand new. The brands have been Bosch, Whirlpool, Zanussi and now another brand new m/c – Hotpoint – so all good reputable manufacturers. Each has had the same problem: The m/cs all wash well, but despite water going into the m/cs for rinsing and then expelling the water, I have to take the laundry out of the machine, rinse it in the sink 3-4 times (towels are particularly bad) and put it back into the m/c again to spin. (Just in case there was a problem with a possibly blocked outlet down-pipe, I have even put the outlet hose over the sink and the water that pours into the sink is soapy white with bubbles too. Also, the water valve for the inlet hose has been replaced, just in case that was faulty).

None of the manufacturers’ engineers who have been out to check out the m/cs cant suggest a reason as to why there is this problem. Although I live in a hard water area, there appears to be no furring up of the water pipes in my house, the external water pressure has been measure by my local water company who was if anything the water pressure is above the recommended/average water pressure rather than below.

Any suggestions? I don’t have the energy to return yet another washing m/c … but I can’t continue rinsing the laundry in the sink after every wash.”

My next step, if I have any energy left, is to write a similar message in a letter to all the manufacturers whose washing m/cs I have had to return because of this problem.

Good luck to all of you …
Marion

WhatMatters
#117. October 24th, 2009, at 9:28 PM.

New discovery I made today (24th October 2009) that will horrify owners of modern washing machines…

I washed some towels and I did NOT use too much detergent. On the rinse-hold, I could see the water was cloudy and there were still soap bubbles. Remember, this is AFTER the washing machine had rinsed the towels. I know I didn’t press “extra rinse” but the DEFAULT setting is NO “extra rinse”. It makes no difference if you press “extra rinse” anyway.

Knowing that re-running the rinses was unlikely to work, I switched off the machine and found the instruction book, had a look at the wash cycles and saw that the “Duvet” cycle uses the most water (75 litres). (It’s a 7kg machine but can only just fit a single duvet!! The marketing rubbish didn’t mention the words “single duvet”, it just makes out it can wash “a” duvet.)

Anyway, after running the “Duvet” cycle (without detergent), followed by a separate “Spin” cycle at 1600 rpm (the duvet cycle won’t spin faster than 700 rpm), I did manage to get the towels rinsed properly and it took over 3 hours in total!!!!

My discovery… towels are very difficult to rinse. If you are trying to force your washing machine to rinse everything properly, washing a drum full of towels is a TRUE test. Don’t worry about overloading – a full drum of towels quickly becomes half full as the towels get wetter.

So my comment #110 is probably the only “universal” solution. If you follow that idea, it takes a long time to get through a wash load, so you probably won’t want to watch the clock. It’s total madness just to get your laundry rinsed properly, a luxury we had until about 15 years ago.

Don’t forget that if your own laundry is being rinsed fine doesn’t mean that when you stay at a friends, bed and breakfast, a hotel etc. that the bed sheets there will be rinsed properly. That alone clearly illustrates the magnitude of this problem!

Marion
#118. October 25th, 2009, at 2:00 PM.

Many thanks,Whatmatters … my m/c is part way through a laundry wash – using the pre-wash this time – so I’ll see how that does and then try your suggestion with the duvet option.

It’s no wonder that the number of asthma and exzema cases is soaring!

Perhaps I’ll send a copy of my letter to the washing m/c manufacturers to the asthma/ezema research people ..

Marion

Oliver Shaw
#119. October 25th, 2009, at 4:03 PM.

Hi WhatMatters,

Towels are a pain to rinse, The Hotpoint would sudslock with a full load of towels, even after 6 rinses it would still sudslock, so it looks like your machine is far better.

The Duvet cycle sounds interesting, never had a machine with that on, I agree it would be a good idea to run that cycle as well, so you get another wash and extra set of rinses. I cannot believe the lengths people have to go to, to get washing properly rinsed these days. Wow 3 hours is a long time!

The Hotpoint would wash a Duvet (6/7KG), and surprisingly rinse it properly, so they must be very easy to rinse. The programme I used for duvets consisited of:
Wash at 70oC, a Dilution rinse, and then 3 rinses (with extra rinse) and a 1300rpm spin. It took over 2 hours to complete.
Yet I tried this programme for everything else (turned down to 60oC) and it would not rinse at all properly it sudslocked even with a half load in, so after all that I still had to do another 2 or 3 rinses. With all the extra rinses it took over 3 hours to complete, and would still not rinse properly.

Hotels and Bed and Breakfast will only have properly rinsed laundry if they use Commercial machines e.g JLA. But if they are using domestic jobs then I agree they will have poorly rinsed linen. If people are affected they won’t stay there again and it will be bad for business!!

Another option (this is stupid and should not have to do) is to got to the laundrette, most have JLA’s now these do rinse properly. But why should you have to do that when you can have a washer at home? By the way A JLA does all stages of the wash and rinse with water 1/3 up the door.

When will manufacturers wake and smell the coffee, people are not robots we each have INDIVIDUAL requirments and there should be the products out the to panda to our needs.

Oliver.

Oliver Shaw
#121. October 27th, 2009, at 8:36 PM.

I too can confirm drum sizes differ. I had a Hotpoint 6KG machine and it was significantly larger than a friends White Knight 6KG machine. The Hotpoint would wash a thin summer duvet, but the White Knight wouldn’t. The Dyson had a bigger than average 7KG machines drum size as it rotated in both directions at the same time, they say so there is more room for the laundry to move.

Andy, how well did the Dyson rinse, did it sudslock, how many rinses did it do? Because their vacuums are absolute rubbish, I wondered about their washing machines, wern’t they over £1000? Also heard they were noisey.

All the best,

Oliver.

WhatMatters
#123. October 27th, 2009, at 11:48 PM.

Regarding my comment #117 …
I used the normal measure of detergent. If I don’t wash towels, the water on the rinse-hold is mostly clear (but not crystal clear, modern washing machines don’t rinse properly). Re-rinsing anything EXCEPT towels seems to work with my machine (as I put on my comment #106).

Rinsing towels, well that’s a major challenge for modern washing machines, the towels just soak up the pathetically small amount of water. Even when I re-rinsed the towels on the “Duvet” cycle (which uses more water), I saw the extra water quickly disappearing after a few drum rotations. Comment #1 says towels retain the most powder residue. It sounds like that will only be cured if the rinsing cycles literally “drowned” the towels!!! I remember about 20 years ago when washing machines used LOTS of water during the rinses and they did “drown” the washing and rinsed absolutely fine, nobody had skin allergies caused by laundry (unless they were allergic to fabric conditioners, which is just one thing to eliminate).

To Marion (comment #118), adding the liquid or powder detergent to the drum and running a cycle with a pre-wash seems to work best if you’re washing a small load or your machine is prone to excessive foaming when using the recommended amount of detergent. I found this to be a problem when washing curtains some time ago, as I’m a non-smoker and the curtains are dusty rather than dirty, maybe light soiling causes excessive foaming? On the other hand, if after the pre-wash you don’t see any bubbles at all during the main wash, your washing may not be washed properly (but likely to be rinsed a bit better!).

It’s definitely “tug of war” with the washing machine to make it rinse better, but I don’t expect absolutely perfect rinsing unless you can make the machine fill with LOTS of water for every rinse. 6 rinses with water at least 1/3 up the door, fast spinning between rinses (e.g. 800 rpm) and no suds-locking. I wish I could make washing machines that did that and were as well built as Mieles, just a thought.

Oliver Shaw
#124. October 28th, 2009, at 2:45 PM.

Hi WhatMatters,

There are a few suds in the last rinse of my machine, the water is crystal clear though. The detregent cannot be present though as if it were I would see the effects on my skin. A theory is if you rinse alot, the foam inhibitor is rinsed out and then the minute amounts of detergent left over are free to sud like crazy! I do dose the powder properly for soil, water hardness and load size.

This is all with 4 rinses 1/3 up the door and a spin of 400rpm after each stage of the programme. If I use the synthetic cycles with 4 rinses and water 1/4 up the door there is also a “dilution rinse” which helps drain more off before the first spin. It would appear soap suds are not that good at indecating how well the machine rinses, you can hardly smell the Persil’s perfume on my laundry (Persil is very heavily perfumed), it is not hard and scratchy and it lovely and soft and I do not use softener. And my skin is better than it ever has been.

I have noticed with alot of machines the water all soaks up and does not refill, the pressure switch should kick in and tell it to fill up again, but this is only ever the case on wash, never rinses, God only knows why! No machine rinses away 100% of detergent, never has done either. The old ones did come very close though.

All the best,

Oliver.

WhatMatters
#126. October 29th, 2009, at 6:15 PM.

Using white (clear/distilled) vinegar before re-rinsing might help. I will try it next time I use the washing machine. I will fill up the fabric conditioner part of the soap drawer with clear vinegar, then on the rinse-hold (i.e. final rinse), refill the fabric conditioner compartment with actual fabric conditioner and then re-rinse.

Doing a Google search for “vinegar laundry” (without the speech marks) returns a lot of results about the benefits of using vinegar on fabrics, not just for neutralising detergent, but for stain removal and so on.

It might work out cheaper to buy the vinegar in larger bottles or containers, if you use it a lot. Brown (malt) vinegar is likely to stain everything, so not a good idea to use that variety!!

This might be the final piece of the jigsaw puzzle, if it really works? I’ve read that some people actually use clear vinegar as a substitute for fabric conditioner – it’s claimed to work just as well. I wonder if it really does?

Jon
#127. November 1st, 2009, at 5:03 PM.

We have a Miele machine, and I have to say that with it’s standard 2 rinse cycle, it is the best rinsing machine that we have ever had since our Hoover many years ago. Before I start with anything else – 4 members of our family including a 1 year old have bad skin, and I can wash everything in biological powder without a single problem. This is before I even consider pressing extra rinse or water plus (our Miele machine has them as seperate options). I had skin problems a couple weeks ago myself, which I thought might be due to detergent – but after trying non bio detergent I found that it was actually linked to having switched fabric softener.

I collect washers (read: washer geek), and have used a number of different machines over the years. I used to have an AEG Oko Lavamat washing machine from 2004 (read Zanussi), which would only deliver similar (and not as good) rinsing results using the Sensitive button – 5 rinses halfway up the door, but with no interim spin until after the 3rd rinse, whereas both our Miele machines will do a 4 min spin at 1000rpm after the wash, after gently ramping up over a minute or so to max speed, a medium first rinse level (water anything between from the rim of the drum to 2 or 3 inches up the door, depending on the load’s absorbency), followed by another 1000rpm interim spin – this time at 2-3 minutes, then a final rinse of the same level and the final spin. I think what also helps with Miele machines especially is that the slower rinse tumbling plunges the load throuigh the water rather than beating them – which not only allows detegrent to soak out of the load better, but also prevents excessive suds from occuring. Additionally, the machine will also adjust rinsing depending on the size of the load – a heavier load will get longer and/or deeper rinses, and longer interim spins.

In terms of the sudslock issue – Miele machines – or at least the ones I have – seem to have a pause between the wash drain, and the interim spin which seems to allow the suds to die down after the wash, before spinning. In the rare occurence of a sudslock – it will slow the drum speed – but keep spinning at a slow speed, until the suds have cleared, and will then speed up again, and also add an extra rinse for preventative measure, as well as tell you to Check detergent once the machine has finished.

Our Bosch machine, on the other hand, could do 4 rinses, but only spun at 400-600rpm between the rinses, water never came up the door, and everybody would itch if we didn’t use Persil Non Bio. Even Fairy made us itch, go figure. Not just that, but our older Hotpoint machines we had before weren’t clever at rinsing either, and were nowhere near as good as either the Miele we have now, or the ancient Hoover Electronic 1100 we used to have that mum and dad bought when they were married – which lasted until 1996 without a single repair, only to be replaced with a (then fashionable) cream washer to match the kitchen.

I have a variety of old AEGs in the garage – the ones I frequently use are late 80s/early 90s models which employ “Sensortronic” rinse spinning – where the spin speed increases by what seems to be 100rpm steps until the maximum speed (1000rpm) between each rinse, and then maintaining maximum speed for a couple of minutes, before a rinse with a level about an inch up the window. Again, rinses clear with 3 rinses, and much better than our 2003 model Bosch, or our 90s Hotpoint machines.

One thing I do think that doesn’t help with rinsing is how a lot of modern washers don’t fill as the interim spin slows – as well as deeper rinse levels on older machines, I always felt this saturates the load better before the rinse tumbling even started… it’s about the only improvement I could suggest to Miele’s school of rinsing!

Oliver – my mum’s friend has a WFF2000 (this was a major reason as to why we bought our Bosch), and it’s still working to this day without a repair. A very different creed of machine from our old Bosch Exxcel! Although, from what I have heard, Bosch are supposed to have improved the rinsing of their machines, with the higher water level button having returned under the guise of “Aqua plus”, and also on the top of the range machines with the LCD displays you can choose to have higher water, and to have 1-4 additional rinses.

Jon

Jon
#128. November 1st, 2009, at 5:15 PM.

Forgot to mention – I’d be interested to know how many people who have rinsing issues use pre-measured tablets and liquitabs. In my experience, as novel as they are, and we do sometimes buy them on special offer, the one-size-fits-all approach is best left to selling some types of clothes rather than washing them! Have gone back to powder after a while of using tablets (yes – I know, slap me on the wrist), and it is much more economical to use. We live in a hard water area, and I don’t use much at all (I use 60-80ml for average soil, 80-100 for heavy soil) and still get a brilliantly clean wash. Using Bold at the moment, but have found Ariel and store brands to be just as good. I used to love Persil, but they’ve changed the smell and simply the smell coming from the box is enough to make me want to choke!

Although, to be honest, I have to say that it is rather pointless using 2in1 detergents in our machine as we can barely smell it – you get a faint waft as the clothes are on the horse, but smell nothing once they’re dry. When I used commercial machines when I was at uni, on the other hand, using the same amount of detergent my clothes would long smell of Bold or Ariel!

Jon

Oliver Shaw
#129. November 1st, 2009, at 8:39 PM.

Hi Jon,

Yes the WFF2000 is built to last!

I have always used powder, like you I hate the “one size fits all” approach, particullally if you are not washing a full load. I find both Bio and Non-bio upset my skin, all brands. I am using Persil Biological powder and getting excellent results, It stinks in the box but my laundry hardly smells of it thanks to the Bosch.

Laundry coming out of my Mums machine (IAR Siltal) bites your nose off with the smell of Ariel powder! It is very strong and when things dry they are very hard and towels like sandpaper. Excellent machine though.

The WFF2000 has an intermediate spin speed of 400rpm and spins for only a minute after the wash and between all the rinses. This fills up while it is slowing down and has an inlet at the top of the door to wet the laundry as the water comes in. It fills to 1/3 up the door and tumbles normally, the same speed as wash.

Oh, the Hotpoint WF530T I used to have bought in 2005 was cream, nice colour!

All the best,

Oliver.

WhatMatters
#130. November 1st, 2009, at 11:59 PM.

I tried the clear vinegar trick by putting vinegar in the compartment for fabric conditioner, to the “max” mark. Then on the rinse-hold, turned off the machine and added my “sensitive” fabric conditioner and turned the dial to “rinse” (in order to run the rinse cycles again), with the final spin speed set at 1600 rpm.

Clear vinegar seems to have done something… emptied the drum and had a job to smell *any* sort of fragrance. 3 towels that I included in the load felt much softer when they dried.

I hope this solution works and alleviates allergies after a few months. Please remember not to overload the drum and to only use clear vinegar, not brown vinegar or any other colour. Re-rinse and good luck

I don’t know exactly why vinegar improves rinsing, it could be that detergent is alkaline and vinegar is acidic, the vinegar probably lowers the alkali pH nearer to neutral (pH 7 I think?). Maybe the vinegar works in other ways when used in rinsing? I’ve seen plenty of tips on websites about using vinegar on fabrics for other purposes e.g. stain removal.

Hope it helps.

Jon
#131. November 2nd, 2009, at 12:52 AM.

Hi Oliver,

Sounds like your Bosch had the same rinse spin patterns as ours, just ours never had water rise above the door seal – which probably explains why yours rinses and ours didn’t! Ours was so bad that it left pet hair over everything, and if we wanted properly rinsed laundry we had to use the Easy Care cycle which had a higher water level but only spun at 800 at the end, so things would take ages in the tumble dryer as the seperate spin programme was only limited to 800 revs. Our Miele has a similar water fill down the door to the one our Bosch had – which I think is why it probably manages to saturate the load well. All the benefits of Zanussi Jetsystem machines, but without the extra sudsing the recirculation pump creates.

I think the fast intermediate spins compared with deepish rinses on our Miele explains why it rinses so well with so little water – I was reluctant to believe at first that 2 rinses would do an excellent job and always used the extra rinse, but now I save 20 minutes and 15 litres of water and still have perfect results that our Bosch couldn’t deliver with 4 low water rinses. I certainly wouldn’t discount Miele for rinse performance.

My nana had a Hotpoint WF340 I think it was… 1400 spin Aquarius. Bear in mind that she washes three times a week, it didn’t last until it’s 2nd birthday until the bearings were shot. That had pretty decent rinse levels though, it filled a few inches up the door similar to Gary’s Hotpoint.

I’ve used a detergent called Ecos before, it’s a super concentrated washing powder which costs about 7 quid for 54 loads – you can order it online from the guardian eco store (at least that’s where I get it from), which rinses perfectly, but also cleans superbly. It’s just such a hassle to order it online once it’s run out, so the majority of the time we just go for what’s on offer in Asda or Sainsbury’s, but my preference is for Ariel or Bold. It’s very lightly fragranced too, it’s worth a try if you’re allergic to detergents and better (and significantly cheaper) than Ecover in my opinion.

Take care,

Jon

Oliver Shaw
#132. November 2nd, 2009, at 4:54 PM.

Hi Jon,

I have noticed alot of simalarities between the WFF2000 and Miele machines, I wonder which company stole the ideas!!!!

The Hotpoint I had lasted 2.5 years at 4 loads a week, the timer and computer packed up. It only just touched the bottom of the door on rinses though and did 3 with extra rinse selected. It was a useless machine not only was the rinsing bad but the wash performance was pathetic. It did not remove easy stains, such as tea, coffee etc. And it washed for 1 hour before rinsing. The only good thing was it looked nice.

I have also tried Ecover and am allergic to it, it washed as well as plain water too. Never heard of Ecos either, sounds good though.

The Zanussi Jetsystem machines were daft wern’t they, I bet there would be no difference in wash performance whether the recirculation pump worked or not. Plus have heard of alot of pump failures as it is in so much use, and pump fires. It seemed like a selling point to me rather than a useful idea, in my eyes it was just another point of failure. I like the Bosch, if it packs up I will be repairing it!

All the best,

Oliver.

Austin
#133. November 6th, 2009, at 9:39 PM.

It is sad that Zanussi no longer do the version of Jetsystem that they made back in the late 80’s as that was the best washer in its day. I bought after having a 2nd baby as our Servis Quartz died after so much use. The jetsystem was ace as it only used cold water and was economical and it did 3 deep rinses with water level going half way up the door, a great machine in my eyes. I bought another one years later it did not do the spin on wash but did during the rinse I have to say I have never used the extra rinse cycle as never needed it and I too have excema but use good powder like Ariel as cannot abide mucky whites… I guess its caused progress but like most on this forum agree the rinse is crap nowadays on modern machines. Pity really as its the rinsing that cleans the laundry. Just my 2 pennyworth.
Austin

WhatMatters
#134. November 12th, 2009, at 1:21 PM.

One thing that is being overlooked is old detergent being left behind in the washing machine and the build up of grease, mould and bad smells. If you run the washing machine with no laundry and see some soap bubbles, then it’s a good idea to clean out the washing machine to remove the old detergent. I reckon bad rinsing is also leaving behind detergent in the washing machine itself, not just in your clothes!

There’s plenty of advice about cleaning out washing machines. It’s probably best to start off by pulling out the soap drawer and giving that a clean and also clean the recess where the drawer goes into (it can get very dirty in there!). Then clean the pump filter before we clean out the empty washing machine on a boil wash with vinegar or a suitable washing machine cleaner (before anyone recommends using a washing powder with bleaching properties, we’re trying to remove existing detergent and not add to it).

Having done all that, hopefully you can be one step closer to better rinsing by trying out the ideas mentioned earlier, like re-rinsing etc.

Anonymous
#135. November 18th, 2009, at 8:31 PM.

Has anyone tried Amway laundry detergents? How do you rate the cleaning performance compared with Ariel or Persil?

WMUser
#137. December 2nd, 2009, at 6:45 PM.

(Formerly called “WhatMatters”).

Hi, I am writing another posting as I’ve discovered on the Which? website a washing machine rated “very poor” for rinsing on the cottons cycle is a “Best Buy”. Get this: Which? suggests using the “easy care” programme if you have sensitive skin, as there is no extra rinse option. However the cleaning is not as good on this washing machine’s “easy care” programme.

Due to copyright I can’t reveal the make/model.

It is alarming that a washing machine that is very poor at rinsing with no extra rinse can be awarded a “Best Buy”. At least Which? warn you about the very poor rinsing.

As I put earlier, if you own a modern washing machine, you have to force it to rinse better. Has anyone had any luck with this?

WMUser
#139. December 3rd, 2009, at 2:32 PM.

I chose the new name “WMUser” as the name “WhatMatters” sounds a bit harsh, but I was really annoyed at the time I created that name. It is really annoying that today’s washing machines don’t rinse properly and it’s yet another annoying part of everyday life (I won’t make a long list of everyday annoyances, it would be miles long lol).

I agree with what you say Washerhelp: I can’t understand why such a washing machine is a “Best Buy”. I think all Which? members should complain to Which? and insist that only washing machines with “Good” rinsing or better should be awarded a “Best Buy”. That could force the washing machine manufacturers to improve rinsing, as they strive to achieve the “Best Buy” award.

Oliver Shaw
#140. December 3rd, 2009, at 2:54 PM.

Hi WMUser (I still like “WhatMatters”,it summed up this situation very well!)

I noticed this too, back in 2005 when we subscribed to their magazine, not one washing machine made it past “satisfactory” for rinsing. I too thought it diabolical that anyone of them should be awarded “Best Buy”, when obviously they are some what lacking in one VERY major area.

I am sceptical of Which?, I am not completely convinced that they are 100% unbiased, that cannot be proven. A good example is washing powders, they said Ariel cleans better then Persil, but in my Bosch Persil can p*ss all over Ariel, it is better by a long way. Did P&G drop them a back hander I wonder.
Another example is vacuum cleaners, they award countless Dysons “Best Buys” and also publish poor brand reliability, a bit contradictory is it not. I can tell you as a carpet cleaner Dysons are the worst performing cleaners you can buy, and do shorten the life of carpets etc. But thats a little of topic!!

Personally I take no notice of which, for a washing machine to be a “Best Buy” it should wash, rinse and spin to perfection. And also be built to last.

We no longer subscribe to Which? as we no longer give them any credability in what they publish.

All the best,

Oliver.

WMUser
#141. December 4th, 2009, at 2:12 PM.

I used to praise Which? for their product testing, but now I’m not so happy with Which? I’ve noticed they are cutting corners on testing products and seem to be handing out “Best Buy” awards like sweets! For example, they test dishwashers on the “normal” programme for cleaning, drying etc., but (according to their website) Which? no longer tests the “economy” programme on dishwashers. However, Which? are quick to point the finger at a dishwasher model that has “poor energy efficiency”! I thought we were all being told to use less electricity, water and resources, hence use the “economy” programme more often?

To be fair on Which? you are less likely to waste your money on something, provided you read their review very carefully and also read the opinions of customers who’ve bought the product you’re interested in.

Yes I agree with you Oliver, Dysons are the worst cleaners you can buy – and the same goes for all bagless vacuums. Like poor rinsing, if you’re an allergy sufferer, you need a vacuum that does the job well. Why buy a bagless vacuum, then empty the dust container into a rubbish bin or carrier bag and release a cloud of dust everywhere? Most of the Which? Best Buys are bagged models.

Back to the rinsing topic, any method to improve rinsing on today’s machines involves faffing around and observing – you can’t just switch on the machine, walk away and come back later to perfectly rinsed laundry! Like comment #110, a slightly quicker way could be to switch off the machine after the main wash programme has pumped out the soapy water, select another programme that you know uses lots of water and run it without detergent, just use the fabric conditioner compartment. If the final spin is slower on this second programme and you need a faster spin e.g. for tumble drying, you will need to switch off and select the faster spin.

I know the previous paragraph sounds like a lot of fuss, but you soon get used to manually selecting extra cycles and I don’t think about it, I just follow this method and let the washing machine do the hard work.

WMUser
#143. December 22nd, 2009, at 2:46 AM.

If this topic was featured on prime time television, I wonder if a TV documentary, with interviews from allergy sufferers affected by washing machines, would cause a massive public response?

I feel sorry for people who have spent a fortune on a brand new washing machine and soon discover they are suffering allergy hell from clothing that is far from “rinsed”!!

I’m aware that many people just blame the detergent type/brand only, but the terrible truth is down to their washing machine not rinsing well, even if the “extra rinse” option is always enabled.

My eczema has cleared up completely since re-rinsing everything on a water-guzzling cycle (without detergent). It takes over an hour longer, but I don’t care. When my washing machine eventually dies, I will definitely buy an old second-hand “water-guzzling” replacement.

Oliver Shaw
#144. December 22nd, 2009, at 5:19 PM.

Hi WMUser,

That is a really good idea! Then the manufacturers will be aware of how big the problem is and how widespread skin problems from washing machines are then.

Its true people think that having an extra rinse option is going to solve the problem, but it won’t as you say. You just assume that any washing machine will rinse properly without any hassle of re running rinses and other cycles etc. Like they used to in times of old. Nobody will stop to think about rinse efficiency when they buy a washing machine, lets face it I didn’t.

The second hand machine is a top idea, it worked for me, there is no new machine that you can buy today that will even rinse half properly, which is absolutley DISGUSTING. Thank you very much environMENTAL do gooders, look what you have managed to achieve.

All the best, glad you have some relief from the eczema,

Oliver.

Nikki Jenkins
#145. December 27th, 2009, at 9:08 PM.

It’s around 2 years since I posted my thread about how disappointed I was and still am with the poor rinsing performance of ALL modern-day front loading washing machines. Someone made the comment about white vinegar being very good at helping to remove detergent left in clothing, particularly towels. I can confirm that it is absolutely brilliant. However, I have failed to find anywhere who sell it in bulk. You can buy brown malt vinegar in bulk from places like Daily Bread in Northampton, but not white vinegar. Does anyone know of anywhere? I found one website, but the delivery charges were prohibitive.

WMUser
#146. December 28th, 2009, at 11:10 PM.

Hi Nikki Jenkins, I’m glad you find the white vinegar is absolutely brilliant.

I’m surprised white vinegar is not sold in bulk like brown vinegar. Maybe discount retailers like Aldi or Lidl sell it in larger containers? I’m sure it’s available somewhere because it’s so widely advocated, for example, I know they used lots of white vinegar on episodes of “How Clean is Your House”.

Further to the last paragraph on my comment #143, I follow my water-guzzling method every time and find it works the best. If anyone can copy a similar method on their poor-rinsing washing machine, in 3 easy steps…

1) Wash items in the usual manner (including adding the softener or white vinegar), no “extra rinse” option necessary.

2) After the main wash completes (before it starts ‘rinsing’), the machine is likely to perform a short spin. When this spin has finished, switch off and then select a water-guzzling cycle to run without detergent.

3) If the spin speed is too low at the end of 2), switch off and select a higher spin speed.

DON’T WORRY – you soon get used to following the 3-step method every time you use the washing machine. I imagine using white vinegar with that 3-step method would result in VERY good rinsing??!! If you don’t know which cycle on your washing machine is the most water-guzzling, if you can find its literature, it may tell you which cycle uses the most litres of water, that’s how I discovered which one to use for the rinses.

If I press the “extra rinse” on my washing machine, it stupidly doesn’t perform a spin after the main wash cycle, but if I don’t press “extra rinse” then it does that spin. Daft but true! Spinning the soapy water out does help enormously, but the manufacturers don’t seem to know how to rinse clothes, just how to market these “energy efficient” and “water saving” washing machines that are no good any more!

Nikki Jenkins
#147. December 30th, 2009, at 10:24 AM.

I have tried the “water guzzling” methods, I have tried absolutely everything and have formed the opinion that you cannot rinse properly in cold water. You need hot water to dissolve the detergent, surfactant, whatever you want to call it. I have tried washing the clothes through a complete cycle, just not adding any soap, but that is still not as effective as just simply having a washing machine that rinses with hot water. The rinse action is a very special action in any washing machine, it is designed to rinse not wash, but is not effective unless you use hot water. You can (as you have described) “fool” the machine by a judicious twiddling of knobs at the right time, such that the machine is rinsing with hot water … this will work actually … but we are on Economy 7, and so the washing machine has to run during the night when electricity is cheaper. I am not prepared to wake up in the middle of the night to twiddle a few knobs !!

So … I am left with the white vinegar option, which is a brilliant one if I were a millionaire! I have searched everywhere for bulk white vinegar – Aldi, Lidl, the internet – and you can only get malt (brown) vinegar in bulk, except on the internet, and then the delivery charges are prohibitive.

The most water guzzling cycle on my machine is the Wool setting by the way.

Thanks for your helpful suggestions. It is a shame that we are on Economy 7, although I suppose with the problem items like towels I could just wash these during the day and knob twiddle … hang the expense!

WMUser
#148. December 30th, 2009, at 2:56 PM.

Reading your comment Nikki, I know that re-running “water-guzzling” cycles without detergent is not practical for everyone, however the first ‘wash’ on the second cycle you run will act as a warm rinse, if you can turn up the temperature high enough – that’s safe for the clothes, I hope that works.

Comment #47 from Oliver, who bought an older washing machine that uses lots of water, that seems to be the only permanent solution and what I’m considering doing when my washing machine dies one day.

For readers who run their washing machines on Economy 7, maybe running the main wash during Economy 7 hours and leaving the washing machine on rinse-hold could help, especially if washing hotter than 40 degrees. Then during the day, re-run a water-guzzling cycle without detergent (but not hotter than 30 or 40 degrees if you’re trying to save money).

Hope that helps.

PS I wonder if these “A” ratings only apply to the water-SAVING cycles, since most washing machines have a water-guzzling cycle e.g. “wool”, “duvet” etc.?

Marion
#149. December 30th, 2009, at 7:13 PM.

Hi

Re buying White Vinegar in bulk – I’ve found this on the web:
http://www.westmill.co.uk/pdf/3631b%20Pride%20TP.pdf
4 x 5 Litres can be bought from Westmill … I’ve no idea how much the delivery charge is. Someone else buys theirs from their local Chinese shop. Happy shopping!

BTW: Since I commented on this blog in October, I now have a Hotpoint Aqualtis AQ9F 49 U (9 Kg capacity) and the good news is that the ‘Bed & Bath’ cycle seems to work a treat – when using either 1 Persil capsule or 1 Tesco Colours tab! (Haven’t tried it with 2 or 3 capsules or tabs.) No soap left in the washed & rinsed laundry AND no sneezing when using the clothes or bedding when it’s dry. Also, the ‘Shirts’ cycle is good – and again no soap left in the clothes afterthey are washed & rinsed. SO … I’m going to use one of these cyles for most things. I’m sure both cycles are water guzzling, but that’s fine by me if the cycles rinse the clothes thoroughly!

Well done to Hotpoint for getting it right with at least 2 of their cycle options on this washing machine!

WMUser
#150. January 3rd, 2010, at 3:37 PM.

WELL DONE! I think we’ve managed to achieve something – better rinsing by NOT using the default settings alone (or just adding lots of extra rinsing water) and using clear vinegar in the last rinse if necessary – for towels I use it.

I think if enough people complained to BBC Watchdog during its next series, if enough people wrote letters of complaint to all washing machine manufacturers and so on, this rinsing problem could be permanently resolved. If just one manufacturer markets their washing machine as being capable of “proper rinsing” compared its competitors, the other manufacturers will follow suit.

J SALTER
#151. January 13th, 2010, at 5:57 PM.

I dont know if it’s relevant or not,but i just have to add praise for Zanussi. i have had a Zanussi washer for sixteen years and have never had any trouble with it, i have never had cause to have it repaired or anything. The washing machine i had before that was also a Zanussi, which i had for eighteen years, also with no trouble and no repairs.Then last week i had to call out the fire brigade as my machine caught fire, the machine has done a very good job, and owes me nothing, now i have the problem of buying another machine,I want another Zanussi, but i am wondering about the jet system.Can anyone comment on the jet system,if they are any good.

Rod Fryatt
#153. January 16th, 2010, at 7:27 PM.

I want to try and buy an older machine that uses plenty of water to rinse properly. Can anyone please tell me when the new generation of water rationed machines came on the market? In other words, how old does a machine have to be to wash properly with plenty of water?

Oliver Shaw
#154. January 17th, 2010, at 3:13 PM.

Hi Rod,

My Bosch is about 16 years old, it does 4 rinses 1/3 up the door. Probably a minmum of 15 years old I would say.

HTH,

Oliver.

Rod Fryatt
#155. January 18th, 2010, at 10:48 AM.

Thanks for your comment Oliver. I’m going to look at a Bosch this morning. Don’t know which model it is yet.

I’m currently in the middle of acrimonious communication with Hotpoint about my new Indesit. They keep denying that there is a problem. I have taken the liberty of refering to your communication with them last May. Saying I bet they will have “no record” of it. Hope you don’t mind.
Having just spent £330 on a new Indesit I am in the position of having to go out and buy an old machine to get a proper wash and will be considerably out of pocket. I have had so many conflicting replies and visits from Hotpoint that I would be interested to hear what dealing you have had with them. Any contact names etc.

Nikki Jenkins
#156. January 18th, 2010, at 1:36 PM.

My husband is a retired medical scientist and makes the following point: recent decades have seen a meteoric rise in the incidence of asthma which the scientists have struggled to explain. Naturally if clothes contain washing powder (including the additives such as enzymes) not only can this affect the skin by direct contact but also the wearer is constantly breathing in the powder into the lungs. Bed clothes contaminated with washing powder would of course have a similar effect. If you disturb dry, partially rinsed clothes in a shaft of sunlight you will see for yourself what you are breathing in. How do we know that this problem does not at least partly underpin the asthma epidemic? Washing powder enzymes are known to cause asthma. See here:

An outbreak of asthma in a modern detergent factory

DrP Cullinan MDa, , , JM Harris MSca, ProfAJ Newman Taylor FRCPa, AM Holea, M Jones PhDa, F Barnes PhDa and G Jolliffe MRCGPa

Department of Occupational and Environmental Medicine, Imperial College School of Medicine, London SW3 6LR, UK

Summary
The striking decrease in the occurrence of protease-induced occupational asthma in the detergent industry has been attributed to enzyme encapsulation. We report an outbreak of asthma, at least equal in size to those reported in the 1960s, in a modem European factory which has exclusively used encapsulated enzymes. A survey revealed that enzyme sensitisation and work-related respiratory symptoms were positively correlated with airborne enzyme exposure. We suggest that encapsulation alone is insufficient to prevent enzyme-induced allergy and asthma.

It would be ironic if the environmental do-gooders have contributed to one of the biggest health issues in the world?

WMUser
#157. January 20th, 2010, at 2:40 AM.

If a modern washing machine kicks the bucket, you really are better off replacing it with an old washing machine that looks at least 20 years old. If it’s been repaired, it will rinse properly and these old washing machines were made to be repairable.

If you’re waiting for your modern washing machine to self destruct, you could make it work harder – and rinse better – by running a water guzzling cycle without detergent, once the first spin after the main wash finishes. Alternatively, re-run the machine’s rinses when it’s finished. Use clear vinegar if necessary.

Hope that helps you Rod Fryatt and other readers too.

Rod Fryatt
#158. January 21st, 2010, at 10:20 AM.

If it is any help to anyone. I have a new Indesit IWC6165 which gives a very poor wash. I have found that adding 4 or 5 litres of hot water with the washing does help. Of course it does nothing to help the rinsing. Hotpoint and the retailer deny any problem with the rinsing of course.
I have emailed BBC R4 “You & Yours” as well as the Watchdog programme, and would urge others to do the same. No reply as yet.
My repeated emails to Hotpoint may have got through to someone as they have just telephoned me to say they are sending an engineer for a third visit. Hope he is not like the others —– just programmed to say “No problem no problem” !

Nikki Jenkins
#159. January 21st, 2010, at 12:08 PM.

The repair men are given a stock set of answers to regurgitate in response to rinsing complaints so dont expect much. Our machine is a Miele and the engineer modified it to allow higher water levels. I am told that the level sensor works in this way: As the water level rises it compresses air in a tube. A pressure sensor at the end of the tube (above the drum) is then activated. I think he made the tube longer to allow higher water levels.
Firstly this did not help because you need warm or hot water to rinse effectively – not just more water. Secondly because the water level was often up to the centre of the drum over time it seems water got into the bearings destroying them making the machine uneconomic to repair.

Rod Fryatt
#162. January 21st, 2010, at 3:07 PM.

Well actually some machines made during the last 20 years did work pretty well. My Indesit 1263 worked from April 96 till Oct 09. and gave a satisfactory wash and rinsed well. We only scrapped it because the bearings were noisy. Oh how I wish I had them replaced or even done them myself!

WMUser
#164. January 22nd, 2010, at 1:46 AM.

Oh dear, if buying an old washing machine is not the long term answer, we’re stuck with new ones that use too little water for rinsing.

Until the public complain like mad to the washing machine manufacturers, BBC Watchdog etc. then rinsing will never improve and people’s health will continue to suffer as a result!!

Simply pressing the “extra rinse” or similar button every time does not work on its own. I’ve tried that.

Please don’t put up with bad rinsing, do something about it.

Oliver Shaw
#165. January 23rd, 2010, at 3:56 PM.

I have to say for me buying a 15 year old machine was the only solution I could think of at the time and am still none the wiser today. I do have to disagree and say there are plenty of parts still available for my Bosch, even though some at a price, £256.00 for a motor for example. But can you put a price on your health?

Plus my Bosch can do a 60oC cotton wash in about 1 hour 15 minutes, it takes a modern machine anywhere between 2-3 hours to do a 60oC and then all the extra re-rinsing of the load and extra final spin, this could take you up to 4 hours, I haven’t the time or inclination to put up with stupid wash times like that, and some will still not rinse properly. Also could damage your clothing.

To Nikki Jenkins, my Bosch uses cold water to rinse (4 rinses 1/3 up the door) and does rinse properly. I suffer from servere dermatitis and eczema and react to the smallest amount of detergent residue. However there could be something in the hot rinsing theory, my dishwasher is on a hot water supply so does rinse in hot water and the pots do not smell of detergent but when it was on a cold supply the pots smelt very strongly, so it does rinse better in hot water. Personally I would feel rinsing in hot water in a washing machine could cause the soap to sud back up, whereas cold water seems to kill it more, I could be wrong, it is my own theory. What about connecting your washing machine to a hot only supply so it rinses in hot water? This would only be acceptable if your water temperature is not above 35/40oC though, or it could damage your laundry or possibly the machine. Plus you would not beable to do low temperature washes if the incoming supply is too hot, again could be wrong only my own thoughts.
Also never heard of a high water level damaging bearings, overloading may do as you also have the weight of the extra water to damage the water seal.

All the best,

Oliver.

Nikki Jenkins
#166. January 23rd, 2010, at 10:02 PM.

I don’t give a fig what anyone says … you cannot rinse properly with cold water. This is a basic scientific fact. You need at least warm water to rinse effectively, end of.

In the old days, washing machines rinsed properly. ALL the machines I have ever had had a hot and cold rinse … from memory, you could choose. I think that was an Indesit I had that you could choose hot or cold rinse.

I will not ever in a million years accept that you can rinse clothes effectively with cold water. Try it for yourself – plunge a soapy cotton garment into cold water, rinse it until the water runs clear. Then plunge that same garment into hot water – it will be soapy.

Rod Fryatt
#168. January 24th, 2010, at 3:24 PM.

I expect all these new machines have a small microprocessor to control the washing cycle
and water level etc. Mine has a USB plug at the back for communicating with it. It cannot
be beyond the wit of some of the very clever people out there to modify the program.
If I knew how to do it I would throw out a challenge to the hackers of the world to hack
into these things and write a program to make them to wash properly with plenty of water.
Any suggestions anyone? — After all if they can do it with cars, why not washing machines?

WMUser
#169. January 24th, 2010, at 11:01 PM.

Why do modern detergents create so much foam if you use a little bit too much for the load size? If I use the recommended amount and I don’t have a full load, my washing machine will create lots of foam in the last 20 – 30 minutes of the main wash programme. This is particularly a problem if I’m washing towels and also a major problem if I wash hotter than 40 degrees. The hotter water does in fact create more foam, maybe that explains why Nikki Jenkins can see more foam when warmer water is used (comment #166)?

Why don’t the manufacturers install a foam sensor in every washing machine, so if excess foaming occurs then the appropriate action can be taken? Excess foaming is solved by allowing the suds to slowly settle for about 30 minutes, then spinning the laundry and starting again.

I live in a hard water area; I can imagine people living in soft water areas have a major problem with foaming? I’m sure too much foam seriously impairs rinsing?

Nikki Jenkins
#170. January 25th, 2010, at 8:29 AM.

Warm or hot water is required to rinse clothes effectively. My husband explained it to me in a scientific way, which tbh I can’t remember exactly what he said, but it was something about the molecules in the water when heated up become agitated and start jiggling about, thus rinsing in warm or hot water is far far more effective than rinsing in cold.

You don’t have to take my word for it. You can try it for yourself. Take a cotton tea towel, wash it by hand in the correct amount of detergent, then rinse it in cold water and keep rinsing until the water runs completely clear – it will take you some time because the water is cold. Then plunge that tea towel, well rung out, into a bowl of hot water, and you will see for yourself what is scientific fact !!

These days you cannot find a washing machine, except a very old second hand, that will rinse in hot water. The only way to do this is to run your machine for a second time on a warm or hot wash with no detergent. But if you are on Economy 7, as I am, this is impractical. However, it is what I am going to have to do once my husband has repaired my Miele – he has taken the drum out, and bits are lying all over my kitchen floor whilst we wait for some bearing or other to be delivered!

Nikki Jenkins
#171. January 25th, 2010, at 8:31 AM.

Rod : a Miele engineer reprogrammed the electronics on my machine in an attempt to bring in more water, but it didn’t bring in enough, so he then cut something – I think it was a pipe – which brings in more, but still not enough.

WMUser
#172. January 25th, 2010, at 3:17 PM.

Maybe the advice for washing in hot programmes – 60 degrees or higher, is to use a little less detergent if the excess foaming is a problem. It sure is for me. Avoid washing small loads if possible, I find that creates too much foam at any temperature.

One of the advantages of re-running programmes without detergent (after the first spin) is the first ‘wash’ of the second programme without detergent acts as a warm rinse. However, I can imagine if a washing machine performed, say, 4 rinses with the water temperature at 40 degrees and using lots of water every time, your electric bill would be very high! It would also take ages from start to finish!! Unless it was filling from the hot water supply?

If warm rinsing is a must, one risky method could be to pour a kettle full of hot (not boiling!) water into the rinsing water, once the machine has filled with cold water, if you can.

simon smith
#173. January 26th, 2010, at 6:24 PM.

Does anyone find that premium brands i.e. Persil are worth the price? I have found Sainsburys own brand laundry products as good. Also washing powder contains plastic ‘fillers’ and bulking agents (sodium sulfate) and that can’t be good for the clothes or the machine? Always have used a liquid as it rinses better but do a maintenance wash once a month with powder containing oxygen bleach.

Jon
#174. January 26th, 2010, at 8:34 PM.

Hi all, is me again, I feel so rude about forgetting about this whole thread, just found it again after sorting out my Hotmail!

I still have to say that, despite being a water efficient machine, our Miele rinses superbly compared to our other older machines – we very rarely use water plus or the extra rinse as often I’m far too much in a rush to wait an extra 15 minutes. We use Ariel or Persil (whichever is on offer really), and we have no skin problems even though 3 of us, myself included, have severe eczema, which can be heavily aggravated by perfumed shower gels, softeners etc. However, my sister suffers from extreme eczema, yet she uses Fairy in a modern Zanussi Essential. Curiously, I noticed the other day when she had the Extra Rinse option selected, that even though adding 2 or 3 rinses, it won’t spin after the rinse cycles AT ALL (this is on cottons 40, which should spin after each rinse), and only does a brief, very slow spin before the softener rinse, before doing the normal 1200rpm spin at the end – thus, giving no better results than if she didn’t press extra rinse, as this would mean at least the washer will spin between rinses to get excess detergent out.

I think I mentioned before, but I’ll say it again, and I firmly believe it’s not just the water level which is a major factor during rinsing, but the interim spins too. One of the reasons why I personally think our Miele rinses so well is that it spins at 1000rpm for about 3 or 4 minutes after the wash (yes, I’ve been sad enough to fiddle with the spin selector mid cycle to see how fast it spins at!), and will spin at 1000rpm between the first rinse and the softener rinse. It makes sense if you think about it that most of the detergent is being spun out after the wash, hence less water and rinses being needed. I’ve noticed with Hotpoints and our old Bosch Exxcel in operation that the spins are quite brief and slow between the wash and the rinses – the Hotpoints/Indesits I’ve seen just do a series of bursts and a short spin rather than a full on spin after the wash – which in turn would hinder rinsing as more sudsy water is remaining in the load by the time the rinse cycle has started – this being even more exagerrated in my sisters Zanussi with the extra rinse being selected, as excess detergent and suds aren’t being removed at all before the rinse phase begins.

I think if more machines did a decent, long, fast spin after the wash and between the rinses, like our Miele, then the lower water levels wouldn’t matter, however it seems some manufacturers like Hotpoint, Indesit and Zanussi have cut down the water level, but not altered the interim spins accordingly.

Simon – we’ve used Sainsbury’s and Asda’s own before, and they are fair. However, we’ve always noticed that if we’ve been using own brand stuff and switch back to the main 3, i.e. Persil/Ariel/Bold, that stuff seems so much cleaner and whiter! BTW using liquid all the time will result in dingy whites, as optical brighteners alone don’t do as good a job as when they are in tandem with oxygen bleach in powders and tablets.

Jon

Oliver Shaw
#175. January 27th, 2010, at 3:34 PM.

Hi Nikki,

I can see where you are coming from with warm rinsing due to my dishwasher rinsing alot better. I see your Miele engineer increased the water level to 1/2 way up the door, you say this is not enough and to my knowledge no machine not even in the 70’s and 80’s has put water any higher. They did do more rinse cycles though usually 4 or 5. Did you think of connecting it to a hot supply as per comment 165?

However my Bosch does rinse properly in cold water, we used to have a Servis Quartz which also rinsed properly in cold. I have never come across a machine that will rinse with warm water except for some American top loaders, you can buy them over here as well so this may also be a consideration for better rinsing.

Oliver.

Oliver Shaw
#176. January 27th, 2010, at 3:47 PM.

Hi WMUser,

I have just thought of something about rerunning a high water use cycle, they all tend to be delicate cycles, so there will not be proper agitaion and it may not spin between the rinses, or if it does it will be reduced. So may rinse no better than the normal cycle. Your original idea of rerunning the rinse cycle only could be better, just an idea but it has only just occured to me after seeing my Mums Siltal on a delicate cycle, it uses more water, alot less agitation and NO intermediate spins.

Its funny you should mention the foam in washing powders, I was also thinking washing powders were producing alot more foam than they used to. They do seem to foam more on hotter washes as you say, they do wash longer though, so that could be why? Again in My Mums Siltal it will sud half way up the door on a 70oC cycle (washes for 40 minutes before rinsing) with a properly measured dose, she uses Ariel Powder by the way. My Bosch tends not to foam up at all, a little bit runs down the door, I have also used Ariel and have not seen my machine froth like that not even on “Whites Economy” (40 minute 60oC wash, before rinsing). I use Persil at the moment and it seems to froth less than Ariel, perhaps trying different brand may be a consideration.

Oliver.

Oliver Shaw
#177. January 27th, 2010, at 4:02 PM.

Hi Simon,

Personally I find the premium brand washing powders to work alot better. It probably depends on what you are washing, if everything you wash is lightly soiled you would probably see no difference at all. My overalls and work clothes will not come clean with own brand detergents, they come up spotless in Ariel or Persil bio powders, even on Cotton 60oC and “Short wash” selected.

I too have found liquids to rinse out better but they do not kill germs in either the laundry or the machine, call me old fashioned but the idea of wearing second hand sweat is slightly off putting, so for me the bio powders win hands down! At least you do your monthly maintainence wash!

My Mum has also said she would never use the own brands as she too says they do not clean properly, they cannot shift grease etc. out of my Dads overalls but Ariel can (70oC wash). So for me the own brands are rubbish in comparison. Certain detergents work better in certain machines.
Ariel works better in the Siltal.
Persil works better in the Bosch.

You are correct about washing powders having plastic “fillers” in, this is why Ariel and Persil have recently concentrated their formulas to reduce the amount of plastic in their formulations. Also some of the packers are builders or water softeners which help protect the machine from limescale build up. Liquids contain these as well but alot of the filling in a liquid is water. They will not harm the machine in the least, only if you overdose on a permanant basis or never do a maintainence wash. But if used correctly and a monthly 90/95oC you will be fine! Its detergent abuse that damages your machine and the laundry. But most folk will not read the package or get the scoop out!

HTH,

Oliver.

Gary
#178. January 27th, 2010, at 8:13 PM.

Hi again,

I think that my Hotpoint is brilliant the way is rinses the laundry, especially with the 1000rpm intermediate spin in between EVERY rinse (even with Extra Rinse which I use nearly all the time) I just hate the fact people put Hotpoint down all the time, when I couldn’t care as it washes, rinses and spins just fine

Nikki Jenkins
#179. January 27th, 2010, at 10:34 PM.

~The Miele is still in bits, although at last hubby has all the parts needed to replace the bearing and fit the two drums back into the machine and put everything back together – hopefully! If it works, I have decided that what I will do is set the machine up to wash in the middle of the night, when our electricity is at its cheapest, and then leave it standing in the machine all day, and then set it up to wash again the following night, but this time with no detergent. It will then “test” one or two bits of laundry by rinsing them by hand, and if they are reasonably soap free, then that will do. If not, the machine will be set up again to do a third soap free wash.

We can’t rig our washing machine up to the hot water fill – because our hot water is heated by our Coalbrookdale wood burner, as well as by the oil boiler and an immersion too if we want, the water would often be far too hot – although it has to be said all our clothes and laundry are cotton or linen, I hate artificial stuff, but I do have some delicate wool jerseys and underwear that needs to be washed on cool. So that, sadly, is not an option. I shall just have to stick with the method as described above, or rinse by hand. I am looking into the white vinegar route if I can find a supermarket or chinese shop that will sell me white vinegar in bulk.

Oliver Shaw
#180. January 28th, 2010, at 2:29 PM.

Hi Nikki,

You can still connect the miele to a hot water supply using a Thermostatic Mixing Valve. It uses a hot and cold supply and mixes it to the valves manually set temperature, even if your hot water is 80oC the valve will happily mix it to 35/40oC. They work instantly too, so there will be no damage to the washing machine or your delicate woollens.

TMV Valves are available from companies such as Screwfix and are not overly expensive, just make sure it has the correct threaded ends for the hoses you intend to use.

HTH,

Oliver.

Rod Fryatt
#181. January 28th, 2010, at 8:34 PM.

Don’t keep it to your self Gary. What model is your Hotpoint?

Gary
#182. January 29th, 2010, at 5:31 PM.

My Hotpoint is an Aquarius WML540G (hotpoint parts)

There are some videos on YouTube at HooverAC110, this will help show the model

WMUser
#183. February 1st, 2010, at 1:40 AM.

A reply to Oliver’s comment #176 and for anyone trying to re-run programmes without detergent…

Re-running programmes/cycles without detergent or re-running rinses (if the washing machine has a separate rinse-only programme) is a matter of trial and error. In my case, re-running a water guzzling cycle without detergent after the first spin works fine. It spins between rinses, uses extra water and only takes about 1 hour and 30 minutes. The only thing I have to do after this second programme is select the “Spin” cycle with the highest spin speed, as the second programme without detergent doesn’t spin fast enough at the end.

Provided the delicate programmes spin between rinses, use more water than the standard cotton programme and don’t take too long, re-running cycles without detergent may (or may not) work for everyone. You have to try several methods until you find what method works best on your washing machine.

I think gentler agitation is an advantage when rinsing, as too vigorous agitation will create more foam.

Finally, I think I will try the pre-wash idea (that is, adding detergent for the pre-wash only and none for the main wash) if I’m washing a small load or towels, as this may prevent or reduce the excessive foaming. It will mean waiting even longer for the washing machine to finish!!

hlking
#184. February 2nd, 2010, at 5:39 PM.

I have read through this thread with great dismay. As a busy mum of 11 month old triplets I need a relaible machine that is good at EVERYTHING you would expect of a washing machine – and to me that includes the fundamentals of washing and rinsing!! And with the volume of washing that I’m now doing, it must be reliable.

One of the kids is starting to show signs of developing eczema so I’m even more interested in rinse capability (I have always used non-bio gel).

I’m currently used liquitabs as my drawer no longer empties – I have given it a good scrubbing on several occasions to no avail.
We inherited the machine with the house so I have no idea how old it is (am even unsure as to model as it’s integrated and just has a stylised ‘A’ on the front). In addition to the drawer problems one of the progams is now also broken, so I think it’s just slowly disintegrating under the strain!

I don’t have the time to do many of the suggestions listed above, and feel quite indignant that I should have to – but is the consensus that these are the only options?
I’m a subscriber to Which so started my search there, but in view of the above, I’m now not going to spend neary 700 quid on the bosch. Looks like I may have to get ripped off with the nearly as expensive AEG Electrolux or Neff.

Depending on how I get on, I won’t hesitate to try and raise the profile of this via Watchdog.

In the meantime, fingers crossed. Wish me luck with my purchase….

Michelle
#185. February 4th, 2010, at 3:43 PM.

Hi everyone

I’ve had my Bosch for over 6 months now, and I still don’t like it. It doesn’t rinse enough, and I can’t bear the whining noise of the motor. I keep looking on ebay at second hand machines, and wanting to buy one, but there are 2 things stopping me which I hope someone can help me with…

Firstly, I want to have an induction motor, like my old Zanussi had, but I don’t know how to find out if a machine has one or not. I have been checking model numbers on espares to see if they have carbon brushes listed, and was wondering if I can rely on this to indicate what type of motor a machine has? I know that my old Zanussi doesn’t have brushes listed, and my new Bosch does. However, Oliver – you said your WFF2000 has a brushed motor, and yet espares doesn’t list carbon brushes for it… so that makes me think I can’t be sure even if no brushes are listed.

Secondly I will need to transport the machine myself in my car, and I don’t know the best way to do this. I will need to lay it down on its side to get it to fit in the car. Is it OK to transport a machine like this, and which is the best way to do it?

Sorry to hear of everyone else’s problems with this rinsing too… hlking I am wishing you good luck…

Michelle

Oliver Shaw
#187. February 5th, 2010, at 1:23 PM.

Hi Michelle,

I can confirm that a WFF2000 has a brushed motor. If you put in the the 4Washerhelp spares part of this site wff2000 in this exact format you will find out a lot about the machine, about 9 pages to be exact!!

eSpares arn’t perfect at supplying parts by any length, so in my opinion it could be a waste of time, 4Washerhelp seems to be more accurate.

It is not a noisey machine, it is in a third story bedroom and does not disturb the house or anyone in it. My Mum has an IAR Siltal which also has a brushed motor and is quiet as well. A well built brushed motor should bequiet as should an induction one.

HTH,

Oliver.

WMUser
#189. February 7th, 2010, at 7:22 PM.

I can understand the frustration from hlking, comment #184. Re-running programmes without detergent does take longer and now I’ve got used to doing this without thinking about it (and getting on with 101 things that need doing everyday, whilst leaving the washing machine running).

I wish you good luck in getting a Which? recommended washing machine that washes and rinses properly. Fortunately, Which? tell you BEFORE buying whether a washing machine washes and rinses properly. Maybe the washing machines that Which? say are “good” at rinsing have an “extra rinsing” feature to enhance rinsing that bit more?

I’m hoping the next serious of Watchdog will cover this topic and make the manufacturer’s wake up to the problem.

Watchdog: http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog