What’s happened to the hot water valve in washing machines?

Isabel
#1. November 3rd, 2007, at 5:34 AM.

I think that a hot and cold fill washing machine is absolutely not necessary. It’s just a waste of money which the ultimate consumer pays. In the UK many households have a hot water boiler, which means that you pay for heating up your water anyway. If you use a gas boiler, It’s even worse. Using the hot valve is like using hot tab water for cooking or to boil water in the kettle. It doesn’t make much sense. A new cold fill washing machine heats the water even more energy efficient, I guess. In Germany and most other countries, a hot water connection for washing machines does not even exist. Germany has a very high quality standard. The best washing machines are Made in Germany (Miele, AEG, Bosh, Siemens) and if a hot water valve would be better, the Germans would definetely not miss out on it. Why do mainly the cheap crappy washing machines have that feature? Because the good brands know and do much better.

Chris
#3. November 10th, 2007, at 11:02 PM.

With all the pushing and shoving in the UK to get people to fit solar-panels, I find it laughable that the “free” hot water thus acquired through solar heating cannot now be used to wash clothes! You use energy whichever way it goes…either to heat the hot-water tank or via the electric that’s used to heat water in the washing machine. Presumably the same thinking will start applying soon to dishwashers (though I don’t own one so won’t be bothered).
I read somewhere that solar panels can get water up to around 30 degrees C, surely if that went direct into a washing machine it would be a pretty good starting point for lower-temp washes? I rarely wash things any higher than 50C. I think someone’s fallen a bit short on joined-up thinking here….the opportunity to utilise solar-heated water for washing clothes has been well and truly scuppered, so that’ll put a lot of people off installing solar. May as well go back to washing clothes in the bath-tub.

Stan Thomas
#5. December 17th, 2007, at 2:45 PM.

When I plumbed my house I put the hot water cylinder next to the boiler and the washing machine(s) in the ground floor utility room. The hot water run from tank to inlet, including hose, is less than 1 metre and about 2 metres for the two washers. The hot & cold supplies are both via the cold storage tank in the attic, so the fill at the same rate. Solar panels provide a significant amount of water heating. Having done all this, I now find that all new washers have cold fill and heat it with expensive electricity. Makes me look stupid doesn’t it. But it makes that A+ rating even more stupid. I wonder if I’m determined enough to retro fit a hot fill to a new washer…

Richard English
#6. January 1st, 2008, at 10:56 PM.

I have solar water heating which, on a sunny day gets the temperature up to well over 60 degrees centigrade and I would save a lot of money if I were able to use a hot-fill machine.

So who supplies them – both washing machines and dishwashers?

Richard English
#8. January 2nd, 2008, at 10:56 PM.

Many thanks. I did actually read the article and found it very useful – but most of the washing machines and dishwashers I’ve seen advertised do not seem to mention the question of fill and I assume therefore that they only have cold fill.

But I’ll take a look at LG.

Richard English
#10. January 5th, 2008, at 4:55 PM.

So far my research has not found any machines that have fill information listed and I infer from that there there are no dual-fill machines now on sale. The LG site certainly doesn’t mention dual fill.

I will keep searching.

gareth
#11. January 24th, 2008, at 8:54 PM.

I would prefer a cold fill only machine. I have a combination boiler, and the hot supply has to run for a long time for the water to be hot. Much longer than the fill time of the machine. This is wasting gas, heating water that will only sit in the pipes. The other problem with hot fill, is the pressure drop with a combination boiler to the hot supply. It is very annoying while having a shower, bath or washing up for the hot water to stop because the washing machine is at a fill cycle.

However my Gran lives in sheltered housing where hot water is free, but electricity is not. I have thought about using a shower valve to supply water at about 40 deg to the cold fill.

Richard English
#13. February 4th, 2008, at 4:52 PM.

I don’t know how the manufacturers arrange things but I’d have thought it would have been easy enough to arrange for a machine to draw from the hot water supply only to start with and keep that water in a holding tank. Only if the water were too hot would cold then be called to reduce the temperature to an appropriate level.

In the summer I get free hot water from my solar panels – up to near boiling on really sunny days – and it’s REALLY annoying that I then have to pay to heat up water using electricity just because no properly contrived mixing system has been installed.

The point made by others here about “preferring” cold fill only is really a bit of a red herring. Dual-fill machines can be filled with cold only and those who choose to use cold only can simply turn off the hot supply. Those of us who wish to do the opposite with single-fill machines have no such option.

Richard English
#16. February 10th, 2008, at 10:09 AM.

Many thanks for this.

I agree that the technology used in most washing machines right now seem not to be “bright” enough to know what to do if the hot water supply fails, but it should be perfectly possible to contrive such a thing by means of sensors and microprocessors that will measure the temperature of the water actually in the machine, and not simply admit an arbitrary amount from each source.

Back in the late 1950s my parents’ sloping front Hoover Keymatic managed the job perfectly. If there was not enough hot water it simply got cracking and heated up whatever water it had in its drum, turning occasionally to ensure that the temperature was even. It never “stalled” – not did the two Keymatics that I subsequently bought and used when I got married and only reluctantly replaced with a more “modern” machine when they were no longer made.

I did think about the holding tank space problem and dismissed it. As you say in various postings, the amount of water involved is only about a bowlful and there is plenty of spare space in the average machine – near the floor there is a volume that is more than sufficient. Bear in mind that the holding tank does not need to be any special shape, providing the water therein is circulated by a special pump; the cooling systems on cars are far more convoluted but they seem to keep their coolant at a constant temperature.

Your comment about the commercial aspects of manufacturers’ production is certainly very sensible. However, many local authorities are now giving substantial grants to assist in the installation of solar water heating and this, along with the ever-increasing “green” lobbying, will surely mean that there will be many more solar systems installed and many more people wanting to use their “free” hot water! A wonderful opportunity for a go-ahead manufacturer.

Richard English
#17. February 10th, 2008, at 10:22 AM.

Oh, and thank you for the note about LG. Unfortunately they only have a brochure download facility for one of their models – the direct drive washer – the steam washer and the washer/dryer have no further information available.

Richard English
#18. February 11th, 2008, at 4:51 PM.

After much to-ing and fro-ing with LG’s help-desk, they have finally admitted to me that they no longer make washer-dryers or dishwashers – so the question of what fill they used to use is academic.

Richard English
#20. February 14th, 2008, at 9:40 AM.

On a price comparison website I found, there was a listing of hot fill washing machines and the sites suggested that Electrolux still made them. The Electrolux site has no information so I emailed them a couple of days ago.

They have not yet replied.

Richard English
#22. February 14th, 2008, at 4:37 PM.

Actually my memory served me false! It was hotpoint that they suggested made hot fill machines and it is Hotpoint who’ve not answered me. Sorry Electrolux!

This is the site: http://www.dealtime.co.uk/xPP-washing_machines-hot_fill_washing_machines

Richard English
#24. February 15th, 2008, at 11:28 AM.

I agree. It would actually cause all sorts of problems since, typically, the cold supply is at a higher pressure than the hot and the cold would thus tend to simply run up into the hot system and eventually into the cistern.

I have no contacts in this field but I would suggest that it would be very easy to devise an after-market mixing device that would take water from both supplies (starting with the hot) into a small catchment tank and adjust the mix until it was at the temperature required for the wash. If there was insufficient hot water available then it would get the mix to the hottest it could and then admit it into the standard cold-fill connection, where it would be heated to temperature in the usual way.

Of course, there would need to be some kind of system to decide what temperature is needed and when, and at the simplest this could simply be a control that the operator used according to what was needed. At its most complex it could be a micro-processor that would adjust the temperature of successive fills to meet the differing demands of each cycle. I would imagine that these will be similar for different machines, although they will differ according to the programme selected. But such information is readily available, and, I feel quite sure, is these days stored on the machine’s micro-chip, a duplicate of which could readily be used to control the mixer unit.

It does seem ironic that the needs of those who have solar water heating – an increasing number – are not considered as a potential market by a normally responsive industry..

Paul Hadley
#25. February 20th, 2008, at 11:29 PM.

Like a growing band of truly green consumers I have a solar panel to heat my hot water. Even in February on a sunny day the tank can reach 60C.

So we have lots of FREE hot water created without burning CO2 at the power station.

Therefore it is essential we have a washing machine that can use the solar heated water:

1) It should have a setting to tell it there is solar heating.
2) It should fill until the temperature is at least 30C and pump out the initial cold water in the pipes.
3) Then it can mix hot and cold to get the correct temperature.

Its not rocket science, I am a software developer with a degree in electronics and I know that a solar friendly washing machine can be created. Give me a job and I’ll design it for you!

Richard English
#27. February 21st, 2008, at 1:36 PM.

Cold water detergent works OK (and cold-water detergents have been available in the UK for years as well as in the USA) but there are reasons why cold-water washing is not a completely satisfactory alternative to hot-water washing. One of the less commonly publicised, but nevertheless true, is that parasites and their eggs, present even in the most scrupulously clean of households, are not killed by detergent or by lower temperature washes. Near boiling water is needed to properly sterilise clothing.

Richard English
#29. February 23rd, 2008, at 11:03 AM.

I had a feeling that washing machines (and certainly dishwashers, to which my remarks apply equally) often have a pre-wash cycle that uses cold water. Ideal to draw the first fill from the solar storage and then, once the pre-wash had finished, to draw the (now hot) solar water.

I am quite sure that the job of choosing the correct supply could be done, as Paul Hadley (above) has suggested.

Richard English
#31. February 23rd, 2008, at 4:55 PM.

My first dishwasher ( a Balay) had hot and cold fill.

I suspect, too, that there will be a move back to pre-wash especially for things like nappies. Ecologically disposables are a very bad thing; financially an even worse thing.

I notice nobody’s comment on the hygiene aspect; cold water washes do not kill the eggs of the bugs that, even today, get into people’s clothes. Head lice are actually an increasing, not a decreasing problem.

Marie
#32. April 3rd, 2008, at 1:11 PM.

What about the time for a wash? One machine I was just researching said a normal 40 C wash would take 115 minutes. Doesn’t having hot water filling onto the machine save time. I have a tap next to the washing machine and run the hot tap before I put it on to empty out the cold water so that it’s a quicker wash.

Marie
#34. April 4th, 2008, at 7:40 PM.

I see that it is more economical/greener to have a wash setting that is longer, but I would like to have the choice to have a quicker main cycle, not just the ‘quick wash’ setting (I have young children!) as there are a lot of people in our household and time is an important factor for us.

The Americans who visit us cannot believe that it takes nearly 2 hours to do a small load of washing. I remind them of the fact that with energy available so cheaply in USA there is a lot of waste.

I agree with your comment in #28 that it’s good to have a choice.

Colin
#35. April 14th, 2008, at 9:27 PM.

My Bosch Precision (2000) has H&C fill. A 40 or 60 wash uses 0.24kwh and the soap drawer is hot after filling – and is 10m from hot water tank with 15mm pipe. A new machine is 1kwh + at 60 because it heats the water – what a waste. They do not deserve an A rating. On a boat with loads of hot water from the engine or solar heating I do not want to use elec to heat the water.
The LG machine mentioned earlier is virtually useless – it only uses the hot water if the wash temp is above the hot water temp. Crazy.
With all the computer power and fuzzy logic in these modern machines, surely they can blend the incoming water as required?? Clearly the logic of the manufacturers is extremely fuzzy.
I am looking at using a TMV and a double solenoid valve so that I can select blended water for the initial fill, then switch to cold for the rest. Or TMV valve with a hose through the soap drawer. Bosch have at least told me that an 6kg load requires an initial fill of 12 ltrs.

Richard English
#36. April 17th, 2008, at 10:42 AM.

Still no comments from the manufacturers, I see. Now, in sunny April, I have more hot water from the solar panels than I know what to do with – the cylinder was 80 degrees yesterday as the sun set – but I still have to use electricity to heat the water for my washing machine and dishwasher!

Richard English
#38. April 18th, 2008, at 8:43 AM.

As I have said all along, hot fill is really only important to those of us who have free hot water – and I have gallons of the stuff right now!

I see nobody’s commented on my point about the sterilising benefits of hot washes.

Richard English
#40. April 19th, 2008, at 2:36 PM.

The temperature needed to kill bacteria is 70 degrees centigrade. That’s far lower than boiling – and far higher than the low-temperature washes now in vogue.

Most parasites are destroyed at lower temperatures than bacteria – around 60 degrees.

Washing at 30 degrees relies far too much on the efficacy of the detergent as a lethal agent, to my mind.

Francis Xavier Holden
#41. June 25th, 2008, at 5:15 PM.

I’m in Australia. It would be 15 years since I have washed with hot water. Every household I know washes with cold water, in fact you have to go to a small section in the supermarket to buy hot water detergent.

Richard English
#42. July 4th, 2008, at 11:30 AM.

Does anyone have any comment to make about dishwashers? I can’t see cold-water dishwashing catching on – if only because the crocks would never dry!

My first dishwasher had hot and cold fill.

Richard English
#44. July 7th, 2008, at 10:14 AM.

Oh yes, the crocks rinse just fine – but I’m sure they would never dry if they were washed in cold water. The last rinse is in near-boiling water and that’s why the crocks are dry when the cycle’s finished.

As I said, my first dishwasher had hot and cold fill but my next one didn’t. The reason, I was told, was that introducing hot water at the outset tended to bake food residues onto the crockery. However, I don’t believe that since it would be simple enough to run an initial cycle with cold water and then introduce the hot.

Since I have as much free hot as I can use between April and September it grieves me to have to pay to warm up cold water using full-price electricity. But that point I have already made.

Dave
#45. July 9th, 2008, at 10:22 PM.

Hi Richard / all,
I’m with you Richard: I have more solar hot water than I can shake a stick at, a very short run of pipe to the Washer from the cylinder and was most of my laundry at 60 (+) degrees.

I posted on the other board a few days ago because my 25 year old Hoover washer is on it’s last legs. However, for dishwashing may I reccommend that you look at Miele. I bought my Miele d/w 18 months ago and one of the reasons for the choice of brand was that it accepts hot or cold water fill. I have it on hot and it has slashed the cycle time and my electricity bills! I notice that the instructions for the d/w specifically reccommed hot connection if you have solar water, so Miele are clearly thinking about this issue a littel bit….but sadly not enough to deal with the washing machine.

My mum had a Hoover the same as mine (we bought them at the same time in fact in the middle of the miners’ strike!). Sadly her’s finally gave up the ghost about a year ago and she bought a Miele washer because the blurb in the shop stated that the washer coudl be connected to hot fill but you had to bear in mind that it would then rinse in hot. We were both very angry when the machine arrived and there was a great big sticker on the back next to the valve staing “do not connect to hot water”. When we made enquiries it turned out that this was a very recent “design improvement”. We asked Miele if we could ignore it but they said that the warranty woudl be invalidated if we did, and since it comes with a 15 year guarantee as standard we didn’t want to risk that on a £700 machine.

I’m intrigued by the Hotpoint machines, and even a few new Hoovers, that have two valves on the back, in Hotpoint’s case marked “H” and “C”, but come with a Y adapter pre fitted. I want to know if I can buy one of these, take the Y off, and plumb in to Hot and Cold as before, but Hoover and Hotpoint won’t tell me, they just say that the machines are cold fill only. I’m not convinced. Washerhelp – have you any insider knowledge on these?

One final comment on washing efficiency. Mum’s washing in the Miele was noticeably less clean than in the Hoover until she started to use the “extra water” setting on every wash – strikes me that savings in water are outweighed by shorter life of clothes due to lower standards of cleaning. Even the Miele instruction book implies that using the extra water setting may improve results.
I may be only 40 (and 2 days!!) and therefore relatively young, but I’m getting increasingly suspicious of modern contraptions as time goes on ………………….

Richard English
#46. July 10th, 2008, at 12:01 PM.

Interestingly enough, I did an internet search and found that one manufacturer (Hotpoint) did come up as supplying H & C fill machines. But when I looked at the machine specifications there was nothing about the fill. Their website similarly was innocent of information about this aspect.

So I wrote to them; they didn’t have the courtesy to answer.

Sadly it’s not only modern design that is occasionally a retrograde step; it is also modern manners and business ethics. My standards for replying to emails and/or snailmails is that I always reply within 24 hours – even it’s to say no more than “Sorry, can’t help you”.

Dave
#47. July 10th, 2008, at 5:32 PM.

Yes, Richard, I am totally withyou on this too. I have had several very heated arguments with council officials, MP’s and even a couple of Government ministers on this point. Seems that no longer do manners maketh the man (or woman). Hmm……
I rang Hotpoint about the washers. The woman who took the call was reasonably pleasant, but when I asked about the machine and quoted the model number (WD421) of one I had seen in the shop she first of all said it was a discontinued model and that I must have the wrong model number, but when I said that I was quite sure but if she liked I’d go and take a pic and send it she then said that it might actually be a new model not on her list yet! Either way her answer to the H&C matter was a blanket “all our washer are cold fill only now”. Plain, simple but I remain unconvinced. I wish I could pop into the shop with a screwdriver and pop the lid off; I’d put a hefy gamble on finding that it is just a traditional hot and cold fill but that to “keep up wityh the jones’” they have stopped admitting it. I’d put money on the Hoover ones I’ve seen (some of the “Nextra” range) being the same, but again the lady on the phone at Merthyr Tydfil was polite, pleasant and effciient but simply said “none of our macines take hot water any more”. She even put me throught to someone she described as “an engineer” to double check, but he also just trotted out” we don’t do hot fill now”. The matter of the Hoover is rather academic for me anyway; we’ve always had *everything* Hoover for longer than I’ve been alive: I still use a Hoover Junior 375 of my grandparents and it works like a dream, I even have a local shop that still stocks the parts, but my last Dishwasher was Hoover and it was, sadly, a disaster. They’re all Candy with a Hoover badge and importeds from the Hoover / Candy works in Italy. So I’m afraid I would be very hesitant indeed to buy Hoover now. Maybe Washerhelp or some other reader knows a someone in the S/yorks area who will still fit me new drum bearings in my Electron 1100? Last quote I had was £120, but when I said I’d happily pay that the man said “actually, mate, we wouldn’t do it, not on a machine that age”, so I suspect the quote was artifically high to try to put me off.
Great to compare notes with you Richard, both on hot fill, and manners!
D

Richard English
#50. July 14th, 2008, at 1:42 PM.

On a related note, but one which will become increasingly important as fuel cost continue to soar, is the financial benefits that will increasingly accrue from the use of solar water heating.

I don’t use gas for cooking and since April I have used just under £2 worth of gas – which is the amount needed to keep the boiler pilot light running. British Gas clearly didn’t believe my reading and sent a man to check – but I was correct. I have had all the hot water I need (including that for baths and showers) without using any gas at all; the only fuel cost for water heating has been that of the electricity used to heat the water my dishwasher and washing machine.

You can understand why I would prefer hot-fill machines!

Richard English
#52. July 15th, 2008, at 7:14 PM.

The answer to your last question depends on the relative cost of the water. My cold water is metered and so I pay for any waste – but I suspect the cost of the wasted water is less than the cost of heating water with electricity – and I suspect that the cost of power will increase more rapidly than will the cost of water.

After all, water isn’t running out and fossil fuels are.

Richard English
#53. July 18th, 2008, at 1:57 PM.

PS to my last. With the announcement by British Gas today that gas prices (and obviously electricity prices) are set to increase by 60% “over the next few years” I think my belief, as expressed in my penultimate paragraph above, is vindicated.

Eddy De Clercq
#54. August 1st, 2008, at 1:01 PM.

As mentioned in http://www.grumpyoldman.be/batteries-not-included/ I’m using a device which makes it perfectly feasible to connect the hot water tap to a washing machine, which is very useful if you have e.g. a sun boiler.

Dave
#55. August 1st, 2008, at 10:23 PM.

Thanks to Eddy for this information. I’ve read Eddy’s article and followed his link to the home page for the device he mentions. After some little tme and some help from Eddy I managed to find the English Language version of the text. I am very impressed; this is a device that I shall give extremely serious consideration to purchasing, even though it is quite costly at present. As far as I can see this opens up the way to a huge choice of new washing machines whilst retaining the ability to use domestic hot water. As I understand it, though, standard UK washing machine taps would not have the non-return feature that is requuired, so a small aletration to the plumbing would be required for many people; however the non-return valves that are needed are readily available from the major DIY chains and any good plumbers merchant for well under £2 each and are a compression fitting so are within the capabilities of all but the most inept of DIY’ers.
I note with great interest that the manufacturer of thsi product states in theior literature “”A hot water tap for the washing machine is standard in all newer houses” – this seems to suggest that the German building regulations are aiming towards hot fill washers…..wonder when the washer manufacturers will catch up?????? Thanks Eddy – very enlightening.

Eddy De Clercq
#57. August 2nd, 2008, at 11:32 AM.

I agree that modern washing machine are more energy efficient than older ones. There even exist hot fill versions of machines.

Points 3 and 4 count for me. The device can be useful for older machines or for people not wanting to spend too much money on a washing machine.

Richard English
#59. August 2nd, 2008, at 1:00 PM.

I have already commented about the possible adverse effects of washing clothes at only 40 degrees; I prefer to wash at 60.

However, this German alfamix device looks as though it might do the trick. Unfortunately the English-language version of the site does not mention the device and my German is not adequate to understand everything written on the main site.

But although this discussion is about clothes washers, how much more valuable would such a device be for dishwashing machines, which use far hotter water and, I suspect, more water – although I’ve not been able to check this.

I would like to know whether there is a duplex alfamix that would supply two streams of water – one to the dishwasher and one to the washing machine – or whether one needs to buy two alfamixes. I will try to find out.

Incidentally, Eddy De Clercq suggests that hot-fill versions of washing machines do exist – but not anywhere in the UK so far as I have been able to establish.

Dave
#60. August 3rd, 2008, at 8:06 AM.

When I looked at the English Language version of the information the price I saw was just over €200 – which at present exchange rates is well over GB£100 I think?
As a bit of an electronics enthusiast I can imagine how this device *might* work and can see that the cost of the parts will be very low indeed, however I suppose that the retail cost reflects the tooling cost pf making up the steel casings and some sort of very product-specific “T” piece of valve pipe with a threaded outlet.

Lesley
#61. August 3rd, 2008, at 7:21 PM.

How glad I am that I did not throw out my twin tub – I have control over water temp and volume.
The automatic still needs me there to peg the washing out. It has a hot water fill with a supply close by – the machine goes straight into wash once the water has arrived. Dread having to replace it.
I would love to use my solar heated water supply created on the patio (can not afford the panels I’m afraid) but hesitate to literally pour it into my top loader would the machine register that it was there?

Eddy De Clercq
#62. August 4th, 2008, at 9:16 AM.

Hi,
The Alfamix detection sensor is only made for washing machines and not for dish washer.I did a Google UK search could find hot fills at http://uk.shopping.com/xGS-hot_&_cold_water_fill_washing_machine and http://www.dealtime.co.uk/-hot+fill+washing+machine

Also check this discussion.

Eddy

Dave
#65. August 4th, 2008, at 1:15 PM.

Richard / anyone interested.

Miele Dishwashers all carry advice in the installation section of the instruction book advising the use of HOT water to fill, if it is heated by any method other than electricity, in order to save energy. My is on hot fill and works great.

On the Alfamix site, can’t quite recall exactly where but it was on one of the two English Language pdfs that you can download about the Alfamix itself, I saw an interesting statement which, as exactly as I can recall it, said “Almost all dishwashers will accept hot water”. (The same document said that “Most newly built houses will have a hot water supply for the washing machine”.) Seems to suggest that the German makers of Alfamix assume that hot fill dishwashers and hot and cold washers are the future???? (Odd when Miele make NO hot and cold fill washers, but hey ho….).

Going back to dishwashers, I am sure that Washerhelp will have more technical knowledge than me but depending on the brand you may need to limit the temperature of the incoming water. My old Hoover dishwasher said that connection to hot was fine as long as it was no hotter than 60 degrees C. Someone I worked with 15 years ago bought a Hotpoint dishwasher (in the days when they and Bosch were the same) that accepted hot or cold and had no limit on the incoming temperature (at least not stated) but needed a “hot fill kit”, which turned out to be a new fill hose with a steel braid around it and no flow restrictor. You may well find that if you contact the maker of your machine (or read the small print in the manual) that you can already use hot water.

Dave
#67. August 4th, 2008, at 8:26 PM.

That’s really interesting and very thought provoking – thanks for all that detail.
I’d noticed that the “maintainence wash” thing is common and I had made a mental note, possibly not fully accurate as it was my own conclusion, that as I wash about 2/3rds of my laundry at around 60 degrees I probably would not need to do these maintainence washes if I had a new machine (I’ve never done one in my Hoover and in 25 years it’s never been smelly or had slime in the door seal or left slimy particles on laundry, which are all “symptoms” listed in the manufacturers’ blurbs that I have read which mention maintenance washing. Even the soap drawer never gets clogged up and I hardly ever remove it and clean in the cavity these days, even though I was scrupulous about doing so for probably the first 10 years of the machine’s life).
To me the necessity for such “Maintainence” cycles sees to suggest that, regardless of what manufacturers and the Government, etc., want to fob us off with, actually hot washing is not only better for the laundry (as Richard has said several times and I totally agree) but also better for the life of the machine?
As you rightly say, the consumer should not have to pay to heat water to 60 degrees when it’s sat in the cylinder (especially not when it’s water that is thrown away – it’s not even washing clothes, just cleaning the machine!!).
I wonder if the Miele machine that you mention (available in Germany) has anything to do with any German building regs or anything like that? Mum has a penfiend in Germany who told her several years ago that building regs over there were constantly being tightened up to make homes as “green” as possible and I know that Anita (the penfriend) has had Solar water heating and a wind turbine for well over a decade now. Perhaps, tying this in with the Alfa Mix blurb, Germany is (yet again) well ahead of much of the rest of Europe, including the UK, with technology not only for heating water in the house but also for making Washing Machines utilise the hot water more efficiently?
(Wonder if I could import one of these all water machines…………………;-)

Dave
#69. August 5th, 2008, at 10:35 AM.

I’ve mailed Miele and also looked up the “Softtronic W 3841 WPS Allwater” on miele.de. I’ll post here with whatever response I get.
Thanks again to Washerhelp for all his extensive input in this topic.

Dave
#70. August 6th, 2008, at 2:39 PM.

I’ve had a very fast response from Miele which may be of interest to all reading this who are looking for a hot fill washer. (It also seems to tie in quite well with what Washerhelp said yesterday about Dishwashers and hot water. Rathher than summarising the response I will copy and paste it in it’s entirity here:
“Dear Mr Dxxxxxx,
Like our dishwashers our washing machines may also be connected to hot fill only. However we do tend to recommend they are connected to cold fill. If you connect to hot fill, we say the temperature can be not greater than 60′c, but if the temperature is this high it is likely you will be not be able to benefit from the lower temperature washes such as 40′C if the hot water you are using is above this temperature. If the hot water is greater than 60′C is could start to deteriorate the water softening unit in the machine so I would not recommend water this hot.
In regards to the W3841 this is not a model we supply over in the UK and I would advise contacting Miele in Germany direct to see if they would be able to supply this to the UK for you. Their email address is info@miele.de We are not looking to import this into the UK for sale on the UK market as we already have an Allerwash on sale in the UK.
I hope this helps.
Regards,
Laura Axxxxx”
I will now follow Laura’s advice and mail Miele in Germany. I’ll post any response I get on here too.

Dave
#72. August 7th, 2008, at 8:35 PM.

Hi all,
I replied to Laura at Miele thanking her for the information and also asking her to confirm that her advice applied to a specific Miele machine which my mother has. This particular machine’s installation instructions specifically state “this machine is *not* suitable for connection to a hot water supply”.
Laura has kindly looked into this and, disappointingly in some ways, has sent this response:
“Dear Mr Dxxxxxxx,
I am very sorry to disappoint you and I apologise sincerely, but unfortunately our washing machines are cold-fill only. I have double checked this through my technical colleague. From what I was aware the washing machines were like our dishwashers, however this is not the case as if one hot-fills a machine you will experience very poor rinse results. For this inconvenience, I have arranged to send you a selection of accessories for your dishwasher. These should be with you in 2-3 working days and can be tracked with us on 212903254.
Regards,
Laura Axxxxxx”

I have replied to Laura again thanking her very much for this further information (and her generous apology too) and asking that she please forward a request to the relevant managers at Miele UK asking them to seriously consider importing the hot and cold fill machine.

I have not yet had a response from Miele Germany.

Richard English
#74. August 11th, 2008, at 12:06 PM.

You wrote, “…Richard: I assumed when Eddie said hot fill washing machines he meant washing machines with hot valves as well as cold valves. …” I assumed the same – I was being careless with my use of language.

I have had no response from the alfamix people and assume that they either can’t read English or don’t care about foreign customers. That is a shame since a device that admits hot, cold or a mix of water as needed would be a good idea and avoid my having to replace my existing cold-fill machines before I need to.

Following one of the links in Eddy’s posting I found several machines but not one mentioned that it was hot and cold fill. Indeed, none of the descriptions I could find for washer or dishwashers gave information about the fills. However, the Hotpoint AQGL129PI washer/dryer, the model that would most interest me, actually states that its energy consumption per wash is 1.36 KwHrs and it couldn’t be so specific if there was one consumption rating for hot and another for cold and I must therefore assume that it is cold fill only. It also states that its water consumption per wash is 18.23 Gallons – a significant amount of water and a quantity that would certainly be worth getting heated for nothing.

Interestingly I have been unable to find comparable figures for dishwashers but I would assume that the power consumption, if not the water consumption, would be more than for washing machines.

Richard English
#76. August 11th, 2008, at 1:22 PM.

I’m sure you’re right and that the figure quoted is for a washing cycle. But the current consumption will presumably be correct.

I agree about buying rubbish; I’d never consider buying cheap just to get a facility that is only marginally useful. But my experience is that it is usually the better-quality machines (all machines, not just washing machines) have more facilities than cheaper once. That is one reason why they cost more.

That top-quality machine presently don’t have hot and cold fill is regrettable – but then, neither do the lower-quality ones.

And of course, it’s not simply a question of cash; we all need to try to conserve energy as well – which is why I spent several thousand pounds on my solar water-heating system.

Dave
#77. August 11th, 2008, at 2:28 PM.

A further reply has come from Miele, this time from a different person:
Dear Mr Dxxxxx

Thank you for your e-mail, i shall of course pass this on to our management team so that they may investigate, and look at the possibility of importing the W3841.
Many thanks again

Rob Wxxxxxx
Customer Support Advisor

I’m interested in what has been said above about water consumption….the Hotpoint at 18 Gallons especially. My ancient Hoover A3260 (Electron 1100) only uses 95 litres (isn’t that about 15 gallons?) for a Whites Economy wash according to the instruction book. This has a hot only fill for the wash and then washes at 70 oC, a dilution rinse (adds cold water to the hot wash water for safety before draining – comes up to the bottom edge of the glass), 2 high level rinses (water 1/3 of the way up the door), a short spin, 2 more high level rinses and a fast, long spin. How come a 25 year old machine is seemingly using, if anything, less water than a modern one. I don’t know what capacity the drum is on the Hotpoint mentioned, but most machines these days seem to be between 6 and 8 kg – mine’s only 4.5 kg, so the drum and tub must be smaller surely? Maybe this is why less water is used, but if so are we not simply saying that, kg of laundry for Litre of water, modern machines actually use just as much?!?!

This has got me so intrigued that I went and did a little experiment of letting my washer fill to the wash level with cold water, then draining it into a bucket with gallon markers to see how much hot water is used on a wash with hot fill. It came out at a fraction less than 1.75 gallons (7.95 litres) for the wash level. I repeated the experiment with the rinse level water – this time it was bang on 5 gallons (22.73 litres). So for a whites wash (as described above) that’s 1.75 gallons + 3.25 gallons + 20 gallons = 25 gallons of water (113.65 litres). Clearly this is more than the instruction book claims, but I suppose the fact that there was no laundry to retain water after the wash and each rinse probably affected the rinse water cut off point and also of course the machine would never drain as empty as I did because my bucket was below the bottom of the tub and so every last drop drained out – normally the hose would be in the stand pipe well above the tub so there would be some water in the sump before the machine started to fill.

Whatever the variance between the book and the reality though, I did notice that the amount of water used for the wash (1.75 gallons) was much less than I expected. It’s less than a bucket full. Surely this must compare pretty favorably with modern machines? I don’t use a washing up bowl, but I have an old one in the greenhouse and that holds well over 1.5 gallons, so looking at references to “ a bowlful” of hot water for washing it strikes me that it can’t be so far off what this old machine uses?

Dave
#79. August 11th, 2008, at 7:49 PM.

It’s all very interesting, however one thing is for sure: if a modern machine uses less than 6.62 litres of water for the wash (and especially if it can hold more laundry and is filled to capacity) I refuse to accept that it can possibly be washing things clean!!! Call me old fashioned but I want my washing to be well and truely soaked and thrashed about in water. This, I suspect, is why mum uses the “water plus” on her Miele; she did feel it wasn’t washing as clean as her old machine before she started to do this. Since you don’t get any better quality than Miele now heaven knows what cheaper machines are like!

Dave
#81. August 12th, 2008, at 11:38 AM.

I see the point about the sprinkling / spraying wash systems – this seems like an excellent idea which I’m all in favour of. What I can’t understand is how a machine like mine has so little wash water that you can’t see it at all when there is any laundry in, and yet newer machines can apparently use even less for more washing…..seems like having “less than nothing” !!! Even with the spray systems this seems strange to my luddite brain.

The rinsing makes a lot of sense – if you think about how much cold water you need to get all the soap suds out of a dish cloth, bath sponge, flannel, etc., Even out of a scrubbing brush or nail brush. It takes many many times more water to get rid of the soap from any of those things than it did to get the suds there to start with, so little wonder that Which? are making these comments and that manufacturers like Miele are offering options, buttons and programme selections which add “extra” water or additional rinses. Now I maybe barkingup the wrong tree here, but wouldn’t part of the solution be to make the machine run a spin, even if very short, as soon as it drains the wash water? Surely if the maximum possible amount of sudsy water was expelled from the laundry before rinsing started then it woudl be easier to get rid of the soap residue? Or would spinning either create more suds in some way I’ve not thought of or concentyrate the soap residue by removing water but leaving soap particles? I’m always amazed at how soapy the water from teh second rinse on my machine is when the intermediate spin kicks in, yet the 3rd rinse water is almost crystal clear, so clearly that spin makes a tremendous difference, but it does come after 2 rinses (and on hot programmes a dilution rinse too).

Dave
#83. August 12th, 2008, at 3:44 PM.

Well, I’ll cross my fingers and hope to goodness that it doesn’t pack up on me, but my A3260 has never ever filled up to above where the door seal fastens to the tub on wash and for rinse the water just touches the part of the door glass where the vertical innermost part starts, at the end of the “slope”. This, of course, is when there is no laundry in, or when there is such a small load that at least part of the drum is still visible. When it’s got a normal load in you can’t see any water on wash (but plenty runs down the glass when the drum turns so the laundry is obviously soaked) except on programme “G” (woollens”) and the delicates cycle when it comes up to the same level as rinses. On rinse the water comes about 2/3 of the way up the “slope” of the glass when the pressure switch clunks and the water stops. Maybe the pressure switch in mine has been slightly out of adjustment all it’s life?
It’s interesting to hear a professional’s view of where it should be going; but it never has done as far as I recall, so I guess I should be pleased that it’s worked like this for quarter of a century using less water than expected!!!
Just been in Atkinson’s (our department store) with mum for lunch. We looked at domestic appliances a bit and teh lady who sold me my dishwasher and mum her Miele washer said hello to us. She remembered our conversation over a year ago about hot fill and said that she’s noticed a lot more people asking for it lately; she puts it down to the ever increassing cost of electricity. Interestingly she said taht the *thought* that the Dyson Contrarotator had hot fill, but as far as she knows that was so unpopular that it’s not made any more. I’m afraid I’d never touch any Dyson product with a barge pole, so I never bothered to look when they were in the shops round here. For anyone wanting a washer now it may be worth investigating if they are still made?

Dave
#85. September 25th, 2008, at 11:51 AM.

2 litres per wash? 2 gallons more like!
Most machines I looked at specify a little under 50 litres for the full wash cycle.

Heating water with electricity is much more expensive than with gas, and my combi boiler is right above the washing machine. I WANT to have the option to use it, especially when I have several loads to get through in one day.

Richard English
#86. September 25th, 2008, at 7:39 PM.

Which? has just published a survey of washers. I wrote to them some weeks ago and asked about hot-fill and received an automated acknowledgment and was living in hopes that they might mention the topic. Some hopes – no mention even of my letter, let alone of a suitable machine.

Dave
#88. September 26th, 2008, at 5:32 PM.

Richard (and everyone else).
I have had two “arguments” with the people at Which? on this subject. The first was about a year and a half ago when I tried a trial subscription and when I cancelled (after reading their washer reports whilst looking for a new washer for my mum) the woman on the phone wanted to know why I was cancelling. I told her plainly that I was aware of (at that time) two manufacturers making hot fill washers (LG and Hotpoint, who still advertised 1 washer and one washer-dryer with H&C fill at that date) and had hoped to see reviews of these machines in the tests and articles. She flatley denied that any manufacturer still made hot fill washers and was quite rude about it so I demanded to speak to her supervisor. The supervisor came on the line, apologised fo rthe first woman’s rudeness and asked where I had seen these hot fill washers advertsied. I gave her links to the manufacturer’s websites and she (claimed to have) looked them up there and then, agreed that yes, they were advertising H&C fill models and then tried to fob me off with “but they’re just old models, it won’t be worth us testing them because they’ll soon not be made any more”. I pointed out that LG’s machines were being hailed as pioneering and Energy Saving Trust recommended but she just said “well we can’t test everything” and ended the conversation.
Very recently I tried another free trail when I was forced to buy a new washer as my old one had actually stopped being useable. Again, no sign of mention of H&C fill, even though 2 LG models that they review do have a hot connection (one being the one I bought). I e-mailed them and asked why this was not mentioned, especially when Miele also make a H&C model that is only available in Europe at present, so clearly there is a demand. I got a “stock” response saying that they would “take my comments into account when they conduct a new review”.
I hold out no hope, but then to be frank I don’t really reckon much to the Which? tests and reports anyway.
See the “I want a washing machine with a hot valve” board for my on-going experiences with the LG – it isn’t all bad but as yet I am rather disappointed.
Can I also recommend that everyone interested in this topic mails the Miele customer service centre asking why on earth they don’t import the W3841 AllWater (AllWasser) to the UK – be careful though, one lady at Miele mis-read my message and thouight I wanted the *allerwash* and told me it was available. When I pointed out her error I got a free load of Dishwasher accessories as an apolopgy, but it really was her error; don’t ask about the wrong one by mistake!

Leadbeter
#89. November 18th, 2008, at 9:59 PM.

I mourn and lament the passing of the dual fill washing machine. We always ran the hot tap in the adjacent sink to ensure the machine got 65 deg water. I reckon it costs me over 3 times more to heat water by electricity rather than gas even now on my currentt tarriffs. Given the run off time I reckon I am still over two times in pocket. I am convinced my early 80’s Philips machine mixed as per a power shower (not electrically heated!) on a thermostatic basis.

I notice assertions above that dishwashers are only cold fill – they are not – as if you look at the instructions they can be connected to a hot supply providing it is 65 deg or less. Most dishwaher cycles run at 65 deg or above anyway.

Richard English
#91. November 20th, 2008, at 5:47 PM.

Dishwashers rinse in hot water, I am sure; that’s the way that the dishes dry – by being hot from the final rinse. If they rinsed in cold the dishes would come out wet and would need to be dried manually.

Richard English
#93. November 20th, 2008, at 6:08 PM.

Well, Possibly. I’m not inside the washer to find out. All I do know is that the dishes, when the cycle is finished, are very hot and there are still drops of (hot ) water on them.

The first Balay dishwasher I had (my first such machine) was hot and cold fill. The second Balay I had was only cold fill and the salesman told me that this was to improve the washing performance since hot fill meant that hot water would wash over the dirty dishes and bake the food onto them. I didn’t know whether to believe him or not – and still don’t.

jane
#95. December 8th, 2008, at 10:56 PM.

Thank you. A very helpful blog. As someone who uses non-biological powder, has a very efficient solar panel and a hot water cylinder near my washing machine……. I think I will just phone the repair man back and tell him that I have changed my mind and perhaps I will spend £300 mending my 12 year old machine after all! Washing machine manufacturers please take note!

Dave
#97. December 17th, 2008, at 8:50 PM.

Question: “What is energyefficiency?”
We had a lengthy debate at work today about this (we being me, my like-minded boss who is all for anything to do withthe environment and our semi-like minded head of Economics who is a bit of a guru on manufacturing indistries).
We decided that a really energy efficient product (any product, not just a washer) had to be:
Energy-efficient to make
Energy-efficient in use
Energy-efficient to get from maker to user
Have a longer-than-average life expectancy
Have greater-than-average reliability
Give a performance that meant that having to use the item more than once to get a good result was a rare exception
Consistently produce superb “output”

In terms of a washing machine surely this means a machine that has a life span of at least 10 years, is made in the country of use or in the nearest alternative country (as opposed to the opposite side of the globe), rarely breaks down (is this indicated by the manufacturer’s guarantee or is that an unreliable indicator I wonder?), uses the most economical source of water available (by which I mean either manually or automatically facilitates selection at the user’s installation), and both washes and rinses so well that additional rinsing or repeated cycles are not required.
I’m not going to advertise any brand here, but one maker comes to mind at once, at least for purchasers based in mainland Europe and the UK ………………………………. shame they don’t seem to import their multi-water-type machine to the UK yet!!!!

susan pilkington
#98. January 17th, 2009, at 11:13 AM.

Hi
I have read your articles with interest.
I want to replace my very old hotpoint twin tub but I can’t.
I have been looking at automatics which I dont reallly want but there doesnt seem to be an alternative.
I would like to know why I cant buy a twin tub anymore.
I fill my machine with hot water immediately, no need to use a heater, I wash my whites, then as the water cools the coloreds and finally darks. My entire wash(4 loads ) is done in less than an hour and on the line. The spinner spins, originally at 2500 revs but is probably slower now.
I use a lot less electricity, water and time with a twin tub.
I wish Hotpoint or electrolux still made them.
Thanks for letting me let off steam

n bars
#99. January 24th, 2009, at 12:45 PM.

We bought a new washing machine this year cold fill only and all we can say about it its rubbish, example the tea towels still come out stained even on a 60 degree wash. Our old hotfill zanussi use to bring them up lovely and white and they came out of the washing machine warm unlike the cold fill ones when they are rinsed in cold water once again they are utter rubbish.Help where can we get a hot fill washing machine.

Brian Southam
#101. February 2nd, 2009, at 5:22 PM.

We use a combi bolier The wife runs the hot tap in the sink till it is hot,saving the water that is run off for the plants. I have installed a solenoid valve on the cold water run to the washer so my wife turns it on after the machine is full of hot water. If she has delicates in the wash she will turn on the soleniod valve to cool the water at odd times. The switch for the soleniod is next to the machine so easy to use. In this part of the world the cold water temperature comes in at about 43degs f in the winter months not much higher in the summer.The powers to be tell us that we must save energy, so I can’t see how these new machines help at all.

Tammie morrison
#102. February 22nd, 2009, at 2:53 PM.

hi we have got my mums washer which is a LG Direct Drive 7.5kg 1600 spin Machine (WM-16336FD) it hot and cold but my current washing machine only plumb for COLD intake. Can i still use the Washer mum gave me just for Cold? will it still be ok to operate? Help it such a good machine .
You can email me direct as well with INFO

langstroth
#104. February 23rd, 2009, at 10:58 AM.

An interesting article / blog as I was thinking of switching our WM to hot fill (due to the availability of Solar heated water). The arguments against make a lot of sense, but:

Our W/M fill is from mains fed cold water – which is typically at about 10C (or sometimes colder in the middle of winter), where as even if not much really hot water gets in to the machine, even the tepid water is at something like 20-30C. So every fill is still saving some (expensive electric) energy heating water to 40 from say 25 instead of from 10C. This could be even better if we use the 30C wash.

(in addiition for us our gravity fed hot (and cold) water has been softened – which would be better for the W/M heating elements I would have thought as we live in a hard water area).

langstroth
#105. February 23rd, 2009, at 11:01 AM.

I should add that in order to prevent very hot water (over 50C in my book) entering the machine I would have thought that a Thermostatic mixing valve could be an option on the hot supply to the machine to limit temp to 40C. For those who do have Solar water these are often recommended anyway as the H/W tank can get very hot (over 60C).

Sue Robertson
#106. March 9th, 2009, at 11:59 PM.

I have a Bosch WFL2450 its about 6 years old ! It is one of the last hot and cold fill machines sold. I find that if i run the hot water tap antill the water comes out very hot put on a 40 60 or 90 degree wash use the quick wash program i can see the steam from the hot water entering my machine if i open the drawer.
The wash results cannot be beaten by any cold water fill machine i have ever come across. Also the quick wash is quicker than cold fill, by a long way under an hour for 60 degree. I dread the idea of changing to a cold fill. I have been doing washing for 30 years no one scientist or technicain wiil convince me on cold fill.

Sue Robertson
#108. March 11th, 2009, at 12:44 AM.

Reply : Cold fill with biological powder, will not be as successful at
removing any unnoticed marks as cold water tends to set in some stains. Time wise myself I much prefer not to wait 2 hours for a 60 degree wash to complete. I work for a well known electrical company in customer service dealing with calls about faulty appliances including washers. Older machines with hot and cold fill seem to have a lower rate of failure, higher customer satisfaction, and generally customers prefer them. If scientists maintain that using products with enzymes and bleaches on cold washes is the most efficient they have yet to convince me and most of the customers I speak to ! Pre-soaking is better in warm.

Richard English
#109. March 11th, 2009, at 10:39 AM.

As I wrote a tidy while ago, washing at low temperatures does not kill all the parasites and pathogenic bacteria. Even the manufacturers reccommend an occasional high temperature wash to give the machine a thorough clean. How much better would it be to be able to use (free in my case) hot water to do that, rather than use expensive electricity?

It might not suit everyone to have hot and cold fill, but it would be good to have a choice. If manufacturers can give this choice to the Germans and others on Continental Europe, why can’t they give it to us?

Dave
#111. March 12th, 2009, at 12:22 AM.

A question for washerhelp here: Obviously I’ve been pretty active on this board for a long while now, and readers who have looked back a long way will see many comments form me about my old Hoover Electron 1100 which sadly finally packed up last August and my new, **supposedly** hot and cold fill washer by LG which I have now.

Regarding the most recent posts here, about length of wash time, reaching the wash temp. gradually and how long teh wash temp is held for, I note the following: my new LG has a facility where when you press the temp selector button whilst the cycle is in progress the “Time Remaining” display changes to the “tub water temp” display. Doing this reveals that my LG stops the wash and drains the water at the precise second that the temp display changes to not the chosen wash temp, but exactly and unvaryingly 5 degrees below the chosen temp. Hence on a 60 degree wash, the second the display ticks over from 54 degs to 55 degs, the wash stops, the drain pump starts and the tub empties. The same applies to a 40 deg wash as soon as it reaches 35 degrees and a boil wash (95 degrees) as soon as it reaches 90.

This may be a small fault on this machine, but even if the temperature thresholds are set low in error, it suggests to me that far from holding the wash at the chosen temp for any length of time, this modern machine at least stops washing as soon as you get to the desired heat.
The washer doesn’t heat the water slowly either. The temp stays constant at whatever the starting temp is (in my case about 35 degrees since I have fixed a mixer valve to the cold inlet to ensure some of my solar heated water is used) for the first 20 minutes of the timer countdown, then the heater must kick in because the temp rises at a rate of around 2 degrees per minute, or slightly faster, until it hits the targets (as above). Thus, for example, on a boil wash, I get 20 minutes of washing in water at about 35 degrees followed by just over 5 minutes of washing in rapidly heating water, then a sudden drain.

Surprisingly this machine washes reasonably well, but nothing like as well as the Hoover did – rinsing is a different story though – but how on earth the manufacturers’ claims, as outlined by Washerhelp, can be believed is beyond me, since there is clearly little attempt to wash at the chosen temperature for more than a few seconds.

As for timing, I can’t speak for other machines, but the reason that this takes 2 hours plus to do a cycle is that every time it reaches a spin phase of the cycle it spends a bare minimum of 4 minutes, and often up to 20 minutes, trying to balance the load before the spin. During these prolonged, and generally unsuccessful, balancing sessions the clock stops, so, for example, when the final spin kicks in at 15 minutes remaining, some 25 minutes later the clock still shows 15 minutes to go.

The spin is very quiet indeed, but although it;s reasonably balanced, gthe difference form the old Hoover is not that it balances better, but that the machine has 4 adjustable feet to ensure that it’s in full contact with the floor at each corner and can’t rock about. Couple this with improved sound insulation, plastic suspension parts rather then steel, and the LG direct drive motor which eliminates the belt (and associated friction noise) and carbon brushes (and associated sparking noise) and the very impressive sound levels have sod all to do with the huge time wasting in load balancing. On top of all that, the 1400 spin, when it does finally get going, gets less water out of the washing than the 1100 on the Hoover, and that’s at least partly because the drain pump doesn’t run continuously during the spin but comes on and off as and when the machine detects water in the sump. THe upshot being that all through the spin you get alternate spells of water being pumped away and water being splashed all round the drum making the machine slow down under load.

Dead clever these Chinese (well, Korean) but I’m sorry to say taht old low tech solutions were far better.
I hasten to add that it isn’t just this machine or this brand; I know people with new Hotpoint (not known as the best for reliability) who say that their old Hotpoint was far better and I know people with Old Bosch who are determined to keep their washer going at all costs because they’ve experienced new Bosch and found them to be poor by comparison. I even know people with Miele who say that they are good, but not as good as Old Servis .
Manufacturers are falling over themselves to use less water, less power and less soap but completely failing to get the results that the “housewife” demands.
Ah well …. time for bed!

Richard English
#112. March 12th, 2009, at 1:24 PM.

I was reminded of this only yesterday when I had a shower. There was enough sun that our cylinder was at nearly 60 degrees Centigrade but the thermostatic valve made sure that the temperature of the shower stayed at its set (and rather lower) temperature.

It would seem a remarkably simple thing to have a similar valve on a washing machine, controlled by the programmer, that would admit water at the desired temperature. This kind of valve starts by admitting hot water (which is obviously not very hot to start with) and then varying the mix to the make sure that the preset temparature is held.

In a shower, of course, the final control is the person standuing underneath it but in a washing machine it would need some kind of sensor that checked the temperature of the water in the drum and fed back the information to the valve which would then adjust itself tio suit.

Cheap and simple – and thus elegant.

chris
#114. March 16th, 2009, at 6:23 PM.

its been interesting reading all the posts, but, unless I’ve missed it no one has touched on my problem.
We have a bosch washing machine about 4 yrs old with hot and cold fill. We are about to ‘upgrade’ and give our ‘old’ one to mother in law, good of us I know, but what the heck!
However, she only has a cold supply plumbed in. The question is, can I just blank off the hot inlet valve on the machine and simply connect cold only, or will this interfere with its programming. We never use the powder tray these days, as we use our balls, so to speak.
any suggestions?

Keith Bassett
#116. May 16th, 2009, at 8:08 PM.

I have solar power particularly hot water.
I have tried a cold fill only washing machine’s and the electric used was 4 times more that the trail using hot and cold fill washing machine.
I believe that a study using solar power etc, producing free hot water etc should be taken into consideration.
As there are many varriables which have to be taken into account. Not just the washing machine makers nor some single minded person.
For some the cold fill would be cheaper and greener.
But on the other hand a hot and cold fill could be cheaper and greener depending on where your hot water comnes from.

There can be no hard and fast rule..
Wake up all out there….don’t be fooled

danceswithferrets
#117. August 5th, 2009, at 9:10 PM.

Wow, I can’t remember ever reading a longer comments section on an article. One would hope that washing machine manufacturers read this page, laugh like I did and then redesign their products around the features we are asking for.
I liked the water recycling idea, maybe a drum in a tub in a tub for storage and filtration could work.
Anyhoo, it sounds like quite a few people want a hot/cold fill machine (me included). I would also like to see a return to controls on a washing machine, three should do it, temp, water source select (cold only/hot and cold) and a timer (30 min, 60 min, 90 min should do it). K.I.S.S.
Oh, and maybe build the damn thing properly. If a washing machine was worth a thousand pounds I’d pay that, as far as I can tell a £500 machine today is so full of gimmicks and so poorly made it’s not worth half that. Give us engineering not useless flashing lights and dubious environmental claims.

Lesley
#119. August 6th, 2009, at 9:04 AM.

I still have my twin tub. It does all the simple things danceswithferrets mentions but it does like my company. Then I have to be there to take out the washing anyway from my automatic, at some stage. So its all down to time management and selecting washing order if you are into water saving. Any observations on the 15 degree washing products that have arrived on the scene? My automatic dial does not go that low.

Dave
#121. December 4th, 2009, at 5:02 PM.

A step nearer perhaps?

Miele are now publishing a brochure withthe Oxon UK address on the back that advertises the AllWater machine and states (Page 39) that using on site hot water will save energy. Sadly it also has the caveat “not available in all countries”. At least we don’t have to download Swedish or Russian brochures any more to see this product. The brochure is available at http://www.miele.co.uk/Resources/RequestBrochure/Brochures/Laundry%20tips_03_2006.pdf (note it’s a dot-co-dot-uk URL so it’s even on their UK server!!!) and can also be picked up in John Lewis shops (where I found my copy).

Miele also sell a Commercial machine which is the AllWater with a few extras in terms of the control features which IS available in the UK ….for approx £2k.

Dave
#123. December 7th, 2009, at 7:28 PM.

Hmmm…. well, it is all very vague I agree Andy, however I must say that I did not read the same contradictory vagueness into the Miele wording as you did.

I read the first statement that you quote above (post 122) in the same way as the Miele Dishwasher instructions which state that “connecting the dishwasher to a hot water supply will save energy and time”. Of course we all know and accept that dishwashers use hotter water than washing machines but we also know and accept that even old dishwashers use far less water than washing machines, so I too Miele’s statement to be a recognition that because more water is used, there would be savings even on cooler washes.

For the second quoted paragraph I think Miele is quite clear and I think they are saying that “modern machines are reasonably economical anyway” (which some of us might argue with but I think that’s what they are saying) and following it up with “they would be even more economical if we fill them wiyth hot water”.

The fact that we can both interpret the same words differently thoug does rather back up your point that they are vague.

Dave
#125. December 8th, 2009, at 8:49 PM.

Not much point in going round and round like the washing in the drum, however as we have discussed on here endlessly in the past washing machines, even modern ones that use just a “bowlful” of water, use far more water than a Dishwasher, ergo any savings to be made, even on a cooler wash, will be more significant in a washing machine because there is more water to heat up.
After all, if a 7kg load washer uses just over 4kW of power to heat the wash water to 40 deg C from a 15 degree start (a rise of 25), but a dishwasher taking in about half the volume of water but at about 60 degrees heats it to 75 using less than half a kW (a rise of 15), then there is a rough but fair guide to work from.
Non-the-less it’s patently obvious that the biggest savings will be on the hottest washes in both types of machine.

Andy
#126. December 24th, 2009, at 4:10 PM.

I understand your arguments both for and against a hot fill valve, but I cant help wondering why the manufactures don’t allow a hot fill run off (to simply pump out the “waste” cool water from pipe runs etc until the incoming water reaches the correct temprature) assuming that gas heated water from the hot water tank is allways cheaper than electric heated water this surely must have benifits?

Dave
#128. December 24th, 2009, at 5:36 PM.

Actually, it’s dead simple and needs no extra parts, controls, hoses or technology: The machine needs to have a hot valve and a cold valve. When a cool wash is selected it needs to fill through only the cold valve. When a warm wash is selected it needs to fill with both valves open at once. If a “deluxe” model is desired this could work as the “Alfa-mix” device, popular on the continent does, using a thermostat to switch the hot and cold on and off in turn to mix the water just right, but for 90% of the time and for 90% of users just allowing both valve to open at once would be fine. When a hot cycle is selected then only the hot valve should open.

This would mean that, barring the most inconceivable of coincidences, all cycles except the hottest (“boil wash”) ones would fill with water that was cool enough to use Bio detergents and none would fill with clap cold water wasting electricity to heat it and lengthening wash times to unacceptable levels.

Oddly enough this is also what Commercial washers do, ranging from “Speed Queen” industrial models in launderettes to Miele “little giants” with a 5Kg load capacity. If they did not then commercial and industrial laundry would be unacceptably expensive and slow.

Dead simple. No hassle. Cheap. Easy to do.

The only complications arise because manufacturers, and “geeks”, want to make out that it is complicated because to do otherwise is to admit that the system that was universally used by every automatic washer until around a decade ago actually cannot be improved upon. It has little (or maybe nothing) to do with the amount of water used by modern machines because, with the possible exception of the smallest machines that only hold around 5kg of washing, the volume of water used is as great or greater than in old machines; it’s just that because they hold more laundry they are entitled to claim a lower volume of water per Kg of load.

If anyone doubts that the matter is as simple as I am asserting then I recommend looking at the machines sold in USA, Australia, Germany and most of continental Europe ….. in essence they all operate exactly as I describe above and all use hot water. Ironic only because when we first started to lose hot valves in the UK we were fobbed off with the idea that we were old fashioned to have hot valves and that no where else did. It’s rather like the loblocks that we were told in the early days of combi boilers that they were standard in the EU and we were old fashioned to have cylinders…….and now we are the last country in the EU to be putting our hot water cylinders back (now calling them heat stores) in order to use Solar and ground source heat pump water heating …… which in mainland Europe was just becoming de-rigeur as we started to rip out our cylinders.

If there is one thing that we excel at in the UK it is being gullible enough to buy all the sales pitch thrown at us and ignore the real facts.

Trish S
#130. January 2nd, 2010, at 11:35 AM.

Just found our 17-year old Whirlpool sitting in a pile of rust and a puddle of water: it still works fine, but looks like the casing of the machine is falling apart. It is, of course, H & C fill. So if we buy a new machine we are left with a redundant hot pipe, which fortunately has a separate stopcock on it. Should we remove the pipe or just leave it sealed off?

Robert
#132. January 26th, 2010, at 11:58 AM.

Apologies if I have missed any comments on the subject but I’m looking at the fill options from a carbon perspective. I understand the arguments relating to the dynamics of operation to get hot water into a washing machine but taking a very simple approach and accepting the good work done by machine manufacturers to reduce the kWh used in creating good wash output but the emissions from using electricity are 2.5 – 3 times that of using say gas in a traditional arrangement. In 2011 the Renewable Heat Incentive will be with us to promote the use of renewable heat. One route for lower emission domestic properties is to use District Heat Networks. Such networks and their technologies have the potential to deliver hot and cold domesitc water at balanced mains pressure within the property, with the heat being generated from renewables like biomass and biofueled Combine Heat and Power. For the likes of the CHP the symbiotic relationship of having a heat sink in the properties would be beneficial – but having a cold fill only takes this away whilst retaining a higher CO2 emissions rate. The same argument holds true for dishwashers.
District Heat Networks are far more prevalent on the continent – is there any learning we can benefit from?
Perhaps the holistic approach would suggest a different journey – eg what is the nations consumption (and hence CO2 emissions) of electricty due to cold fill washing machines and dishwashers – what could the alternative route of retaining H&C fill bring to the Climate Change agenda by using renewable heat?

Dave
#133. January 26th, 2010, at 8:16 PM.

Robert – I don’t think you have missed the point at all: I think that there are several points that keep coming up in this board and the sister one, and they include the ineffective washing and rinsing of modern machines, some *part* of which seems to be down to cold fill, the stupidly long cycle times of cold fill machines, which seems to be all or virtually all down to cold fill, and the cost, both in ££ and also in terms of CO2 emissions of using cold fill only.
I think that the manufacturers and some readers of this bopard mistake cost for meaning £ and nothing but £, a few assume that if the cost in £ is good then the cost in CO2 must also be good but many understand that the two things are neither the same nor of equal importance.
I’m glad you’ve made your contribution as I feel that you have made the issue clearer than any of us have manage dto date. Hopefully more readers will grasp the point now.