This subject is more complex than you might think. Many people dislike not having a hot valve on their washing machine. Some people probably don’t need one – yet others would be better off if washing machines still had them.
I’ve just spent a few hours updating my previously published thoughts on the subject (apologies for not being able to make it more concise) – Should I buy a cold fill washing machine or hot and cold fill?
After reading the above article, if you still want a hot valve read I want a washing machine with a hot water valve
I think that a hot and cold fill washing machine is absolutely not necessary. It’s just a waste of money which the ultimate consumer pays. In the UK many households have a hot water boiler, which means that you pay for heating up your water anyway. If you use a gas boiler, It’s even worse. Using the hot valve is like using hot tab water for cooking or to boil water in the kettle. It doesn’t make much sense. A new cold fill washing machine heats the water even more energy efficient, I guess. In Germany and most other countries, a hot water connection for washing machines does not even exist. Germany has a very high quality standard. The best washing machines are Made in Germany (Miele, AEG, Bosh, Siemens) and if a hot water valve would be better, the Germans would definetely not miss out on it. Why do mainly the cheap crappy washing machines have that feature? Because the good brands know and do much better.
Isabel: As my article points out there is a lot of truth in what the manufacturers say about not needing a hot water valve but only for washing machines in certain (albeit common) conditions, with a certain type of hot water water supply and using biological detergents and low temperature wash programs.
However, Miele have previously published the following, which appears to contradict a lot of what manufacturers say about cold fill being better -
It must be pointed out that this washing machine is not currently available in the UK and may never be. The waters are very muddy regarding this whole issue. My opinion after researching and thinking about this issue is that a hot water valve should be fitted to all washing machines and customers should be able to select whether to use it or not depending on their type of hot water supply and their style of washing (e.g. lots of hot washes or only low temperature washes and ordinary detergent or biological detergent) because otherwise the washing machines are not flexible enough, and are designed only to work ideally in the majority of situations.
With all the pushing and shoving in the UK to get people to fit solar-panels, I find it laughable that the “free” hot water thus acquired through solar heating cannot now be used to wash clothes! You use energy whichever way it goes…either to heat the hot-water tank or via the electric that’s used to heat water in the washing machine. Presumably the same thinking will start applying soon to dishwashers (though I don’t own one so won’t be bothered).
I read somewhere that solar panels can get water up to around 30 degrees C, surely if that went direct into a washing machine it would be a pretty good starting point for lower-temp washes? I rarely wash things any higher than 50C. I think someone’s fallen a bit short on joined-up thinking here….the opportunity to utilise solar-heated water for washing clothes has been well and truly scuppered, so that’ll put a lot of people off installing solar. May as well go back to washing clothes in the bath-tub.
Hello Chris: Dishwashers have long since been cold fill only. It’s been very rare for years to see a dishwasher that uses hot water. Again, as they now use so little water most dishwashers connected to a hot water supply would have finished filling well before the hot water started to run through. Plus with dishwashers you have the extra problem where connecting a hot supply would mean wasting lots of hot water on rinses (dishwashers have always only had one valve).
When I plumbed my house I put the hot water cylinder next to the boiler and the washing machine(s) in the ground floor utility room. The hot water run from tank to inlet, including hose, is less than 1 metre and about 2 metres for the two washers. The hot & cold supplies are both via the cold storage tank in the attic, so the fill at the same rate. Solar panels provide a significant amount of water heating. Having done all this, I now find that all new washers have cold fill and heat it with expensive electricity. Makes me look stupid doesn’t it. But it makes that A+ rating even more stupid. I wonder if I’m determined enough to retro fit a hot fill to a new washer…
I have solar water heating which, on a sunny day gets the temperature up to well over 60 degrees centigrade and I would save a lot of money if I were able to use a hot-fill machine.
So who supplies them – both washing machines and dishwashers?
Hello Richard: LG still do hot and cold fill washing machines the last time I checked (please double check yourself) There is a more comprehensive blog article on the subject here I want a washing machine with a hot water valve
FURTHER COMMENTS?
It would be better if from now on, all further comments on this subject could be added to the article above as it’s best to have them all in one place.
Many thanks. I did actually read the article and found it very useful – but most of the washing machines and dishwashers I’ve seen advertised do not seem to mention the question of fill and I assume therefore that they only have cold fill.
But I’ll take a look at LG.
Richard: Please let us know what you find. When I first mentioned LG they definitely were one of the only ones left with a hot valve but I suspect things may have changed.
LG don’t mention hot valves on their site and their new washing machines all seem to be using steam to wash with. The promotional video shows only one water supply.
So far my research has not found any machines that have fill information listed and I infer from that there there are no dual-fill machines now on sale. The LG site certainly doesn’t mention dual fill.
I will keep searching.
I would prefer a cold fill only machine. I have a combination boiler, and the hot supply has to run for a long time for the water to be hot. Much longer than the fill time of the machine. This is wasting gas, heating water that will only sit in the pipes. The other problem with hot fill, is the pressure drop with a combination boiler to the hot supply. It is very annoying while having a shower, bath or washing up for the hot water to stop because the washing machine is at a fill cycle.
However my Gran lives in sheltered housing where hot water is free, but electricity is not. I have thought about using a shower valve to supply water at about 40 deg to the cold fill.
You make a very good point Gareth. Even combination boilers take a certain time to start delivering proper hot water and if the washing machine has all-but finished this water will have been heated up to just stand in the pipes and cool down.
You might be interested in this article regarding your last point about supplying water at about 40 degrees (although 40 degrees isn’t too bad I would still think it wouldn’t be conducive to rinsing) – can you connect the hot water supply to the cold valve on cold fill washing machines?
I don’t know how the manufacturers arrange things but I’d have thought it would have been easy enough to arrange for a machine to draw from the hot water supply only to start with and keep that water in a holding tank. Only if the water were too hot would cold then be called to reduce the temperature to an appropriate level.
In the summer I get free hot water from my solar panels – up to near boiling on really sunny days – and it’s REALLY annoying that I then have to pay to heat up water using electricity just because no properly contrived mixing system has been installed.
The point made by others here about “preferring” cold fill only is really a bit of a red herring. Dual-fill machines can be filled with cold only and those who choose to use cold only can simply turn off the hot supply. Those of us who wish to do the opposite with single-fill machines have no such option.
Richard:
The manufacturers design for the masses and if only a minority of people could really utilise a hot water supply they would never design for them. You can logically argue a case for doing so on environmental grounds though.
The problem is that there’s no room for a holding tank. Also, dual fill machines won’t work on some programmes without a hot supply because they are designed for an expected hot and cold supply and some fill with hot only on hotter washes. With the hot tap off they would stall and abort with an error. They aren’t bright enough to think there’s no hot water so I’ll use cold instead.
Washing machines that do have a hot water valve
After phoning LG I can confirm that their washing machines do still have a hot water valve. If a hot valve is paramount to you then check the LG brochure available on their web site LG washing machines Navigate to a model, click the “brochure” link which will download a pfd brochure.
Once open, look under the “Feature” list which is at the top and at the bottom of this list it should say “Hot & cold water inlet hose option”. If this model has one there will be a tick in the box next to it.
But before you rush off to LG..
Even LG said that their washing machines only use the hot water valve on 60 degree and 90 degree washes and they will not use it on 30 degree and 40 degree washes which are the ones most people use.
Many thanks for this.
I agree that the technology used in most washing machines right now seem not to be “bright” enough to know what to do if the hot water supply fails, but it should be perfectly possible to contrive such a thing by means of sensors and microprocessors that will measure the temperature of the water actually in the machine, and not simply admit an arbitrary amount from each source.
Back in the late 1950s my parents’ sloping front Hoover Keymatic managed the job perfectly. If there was not enough hot water it simply got cracking and heated up whatever water it had in its drum, turning occasionally to ensure that the temperature was even. It never “stalled” – not did the two Keymatics that I subsequently bought and used when I got married and only reluctantly replaced with a more “modern” machine when they were no longer made.
I did think about the holding tank space problem and dismissed it. As you say in various postings, the amount of water involved is only about a bowlful and there is plenty of spare space in the average machine – near the floor there is a volume that is more than sufficient. Bear in mind that the holding tank does not need to be any special shape, providing the water therein is circulated by a special pump; the cooling systems on cars are far more convoluted but they seem to keep their coolant at a constant temperature.
Your comment about the commercial aspects of manufacturers’ production is certainly very sensible. However, many local authorities are now giving substantial grants to assist in the installation of solar water heating and this, along with the ever-increasing “green” lobbying, will surely mean that there will be many more solar systems installed and many more people wanting to use their “free” hot water! A wonderful opportunity for a go-ahead manufacturer.
Oh, and thank you for the note about LG. Unfortunately they only have a brochure download facility for one of their models – the direct drive washer – the steam washer and the washer/dryer have no further information available.
After much to-ing and fro-ing with LG’s help-desk, they have finally admitted to me that they no longer make washer-dryers or dishwashers – so the question of what fill they used to use is academic.
Richard:
All washing machines should behave the same as the sloping front Hoover Keymatic you mention from the 50s. Any program that fills with hot and cold water at the same time (which is most) would just to fill with cold and continue the programme if the hot water wasn’t available.
When I said dual fill washing machines won’t work on some programmes if the hot supply is turned off I was referring to programs such as whites 90 degree washes (or the 60 degree wash on some models) where the washing machine fills with hot water only to give a kick start. These programmes would fail without a hot supply. However, it’s fair to say they should have been designed not to stall in such circumstances, which would be easy to do. The point is of course mute now because of the cold fill only situation.
On a price comparison website I found, there was a listing of hot fill washing machines and the sites suggested that Electrolux still made them. The Electrolux site has no information so I emailed them a couple of days ago.
They have not yet replied.
Please let us know if they do reply Richard or if you find any others. I just reviewed an Electrolux washing machine Electrolux EWN 14991 W Time Manager washing machine review and it was cold fill.
I don’t know about any other models but I would be surprised if they do make a hot fill washer. I can’t imagine anyone making both as it would severely affect the economy of scale, which is paramount to keeping prices down these days.
Actually my memory served me false! It was hotpoint that they suggested made hot fill machines and it is Hotpoint who’ve not answered me. Sorry Electrolux!
This is the site: http://www.dealtime.co.uk/xPP-washing_machines-hot_fill_washing_machines
Hotpoint washing machines (bizarrely) still have a hot valve but they are cold fill. They come with a y-piece that you need to use to connect both hoses to the cold supply. I am assuming it’s a temporary make do and mend situation while they redesign them properly or something. It doesn’t make a lot of obvious sense.
I agree. It would actually cause all sorts of problems since, typically, the cold supply is at a higher pressure than the hot and the cold would thus tend to simply run up into the hot system and eventually into the cistern.
I have no contacts in this field but I would suggest that it would be very easy to devise an after-market mixing device that would take water from both supplies (starting with the hot) into a small catchment tank and adjust the mix until it was at the temperature required for the wash. If there was insufficient hot water available then it would get the mix to the hottest it could and then admit it into the standard cold-fill connection, where it would be heated to temperature in the usual way.
Of course, there would need to be some kind of system to decide what temperature is needed and when, and at the simplest this could simply be a control that the operator used according to what was needed. At its most complex it could be a micro-processor that would adjust the temperature of successive fills to meet the differing demands of each cycle. I would imagine that these will be similar for different machines, although they will differ according to the programme selected. But such information is readily available, and, I feel quite sure, is these days stored on the machine’s micro-chip, a duplicate of which could readily be used to control the mixer unit.
It does seem ironic that the needs of those who have solar water heating – an increasing number – are not considered as a potential market by a normally responsive industry..
Like a growing band of truly green consumers I have a solar panel to heat my hot water. Even in February on a sunny day the tank can reach 60C.
So we have lots of FREE hot water created without burning CO2 at the power station.
Therefore it is essential we have a washing machine that can use the solar heated water:
1) It should have a setting to tell it there is solar heating.
2) It should fill until the temperature is at least 30C and pump out the initial cold water in the pipes.
3) Then it can mix hot and cold to get the correct temperature.
Its not rocket science, I am a software developer with a degree in electronics and I know that a solar friendly washing machine can be created. Give me a job and I’ll design it for you!
I think washing in cold water is the answer. They’ve been doing it for years in the US Tide Cold Water Detergent
We would need our washing machines to be designed to use it though as you can’t stop most washers heating the water up because they are all geared up for using warm water. The Tide cold water detergent is designed for top loading washing machines that have no heaters.
Cold water detergent works OK (and cold-water detergents have been available in the UK for years as well as in the USA) but there are reasons why cold-water washing is not a completely satisfactory alternative to hot-water washing. One of the less commonly publicised, but nevertheless true, is that parasites and their eggs, present even in the most scrupulously clean of households, are not killed by detergent or by lower temperature washes. Near boiling water is needed to properly sterilise clothing.
Hello Richard. Thanks for that. The problem you describe applies equally to most of the washing already being done with normal washing machines. The overwhelming majority of washes are done at no more than 40 degrees, and people are being persuaded to move down to 30 degrees. That being the case, using cold water shouldn’t (I would have thought) make any difference although I suspect your point is that we shouldn’t lose the option to do hot washes.
I think if detergents are available that wash just as effectively in cold water then it defies logic not to move over to it in an era where conserving energy is considered highly desirable – even critical.
The answer is to make washing machines that still have a heating element to allow hot washes when desired or when necessary, but with an option button to tell the machine to wash in cold water too.
It would be nice if washing machines were also able to utilise solar powered heated water. However, this would be more difficult to achieve because they would need to either pump the first lot of water down the drain that is cold due to cooling in the pipes (which would be wasteful) or store it somewhere to be used on rinses. But it’s hard to imagine where the room could be found to store it – especially as space is cramped due to the popularity of large drum capacity washing machines.
I had a feeling that washing machines (and certainly dishwashers, to which my remarks apply equally) often have a pre-wash cycle that uses cold water. Ideal to draw the first fill from the solar storage and then, once the pre-wash had finished, to draw the (now hot) solar water.
I am quite sure that the job of choosing the correct supply could be done, as Paul Hadley (above) has suggested.
Dishwashers do use a pre wash rinse although they’ve never used hot and cold fill as far as I’m aware so they would have to be redesigned to have 2 water valves. They’ve historically always been cold fill only. With some dishwashes there is an issue where hot water can damage the salts and minerals in the filtration system although I’ve known some dishwashes allow connection to either hot or cold.
Using a hot fill on pre wash with the washing machine woud be a clever way of using the otherwise wasted cool water from the first draw but most people don’t use pre wash on washing machines. It used to be more common when people washed nappies but these days most use disposable ones. There may only be one heavy duty boil wash programme that uses a pre wash which is rarey used.
Washing machines could definitely be redesigned to utilise solar powered heated water but I can see how manufacturers woud currently think it wouldn’t be worth doing until enough people are using it. As it currently stands the cost of washing machines would be increased and reliability would be impacted by several extra parts and the majority of people would see no benefit.
My current feeling is that lower and lower wash temperatures are going to be increasingly introduced until we reach cold water washing.
There’s always likely to be a need for occasional hot washes though, and in fact all manufacturers now advise to do a hot wash once a month for maintenance purposes so it’s a valid concern that people with eco friendly heating supplies should want to utilise them.
My first dishwasher ( a Balay) had hot and cold fill.
I suspect, too, that there will be a move back to pre-wash especially for things like nappies. Ecologically disposables are a very bad thing; financially an even worse thing.
I notice nobody’s comment on the hygiene aspect; cold water washes do not kill the eggs of the bugs that, even today, get into people’s clothes. Head lice are actually an increasing, not a decreasing problem.
What about the time for a wash? One machine I was just researching said a normal 40 C wash would take 115 minutes. Doesn’t having hot water filling onto the machine save time. I have a tap next to the washing machine and run the hot tap before I put it on to empty out the cold water so that it’s a quicker wash.
Marie: This is a common puzzlement to many people. It’s confusing to think that economy programmes on dishwashers, tumble dryers and washing machines take a lot longer. I explained why in a previous blog article but the short answer is that it is the heating element that uses lots of electricity. The motor by comparison uses hardly any.
Therefore it’s cheaper to wash in cooler water for a couple of hours than to use the heater for 20 minutes. Here’s my article – Economy settings take much longer – why?
I see that it is more economical/greener to have a wash setting that is longer, but I would like to have the choice to have a quicker main cycle, not just the ‘quick wash’ setting (I have young children!) as there are a lot of people in our household and time is an important factor for us.
The Americans who visit us cannot believe that it takes nearly 2 hours to do a small load of washing. I remind them of the fact that with energy available so cheaply in USA there is a lot of waste.
I agree with your comment in #28 that it’s good to have a choice.
My Bosch Precision (2000) has H&C fill. A 40 or 60 wash uses 0.24kwh and the soap drawer is hot after filling – and is 10m from hot water tank with 15mm pipe. A new machine is 1kwh + at 60 because it heats the water – what a waste. They do not deserve an A rating. On a boat with loads of hot water from the engine or solar heating I do not want to use elec to heat the water.
The LG machine mentioned earlier is virtually useless – it only uses the hot water if the wash temp is above the hot water temp. Crazy.
With all the computer power and fuzzy logic in these modern machines, surely they can blend the incoming water as required?? Clearly the logic of the manufacturers is extremely fuzzy.
I am looking at using a TMV and a double solenoid valve so that I can select blended water for the initial fill, then switch to cold for the rest. Or TMV valve with a hose through the soap drawer. Bosch have at least told me that an 6kg load requires an initial fill of 12 ltrs.
Still no comments from the manufacturers, I see. Now, in sunny April, I have more hot water from the solar panels than I know what to do with – the cylinder was 80 degrees yesterday as the sun set – but I still have to use electricity to heat the water for my washing machine and dishwasher!
Colin: Yes, I mention on the main article that the LG washing machines only fill with hot water on 60 or above washes.
They can’t really blend the hot and cold water to the correct temperature for two reasons -
1: Biological powders work best when the enzymes are slowly released. They just work better when washing starts in cold water.
2: Cooling in pipes is unavoidable and in many households there are long pipe runs where the pipework is not insulated. Hot water drawn into the pipe network quickly cools. In order to mix water to the correct temperature they would have to use thermostatically controlled filled valves, extra fuzzy logic controls, and they would have to draw in several litres of water before they had some hot to work with. This first draw of water would have to take place in a separate chamber so as it did not wash away any of the detergent. Once a workable hot water supply was detected the first draw which in many cases would contain litres of water would need to be disposed of somehow and wasted or stored to be used in rinsing (but there’s no room to store it). The whole process would just be unnecessarily complex to solve a problem that isn’t really there for most people.
Even though there may be cases where a cold fill might be less economical, they are very isolated cases. The majority of people just wash at 40 degrees and the trend is to move down to 30 degrees, I believe we are heading for cold wash. I’m sure no one would argue that all washing machines should be designed so that they are more economical in cases that may number one in a thousand or possibly even one in 10,000 at the expense of making them less economical for everyone else.
Statistically fewer people use 60° washes and there is little doubt in my mind that washing at 40° does not need any hot water to be drawn in. In fact it is less economical to use hot water on 40 degree washes as explained below (not forgetting that biological detergent works best from cold) -
Experiment
I’ve just done an experiment that you might be interested in. I cut a 1 m length of 15 mm pipe and filled it with water. It took a quarter of a litre. On your 10 metre pipe run that’s 2 1/2 litres. Unless water has been drawn recently the chances are most of that water is either only warm or all cold. If your washing machine does draw 12 litres (which seems a lot these days) and you had a washing machine that used hot and cold water then that works out at about 6 L of cold and 6 L of hot.
In reality, all washing machines would draw a quarter to half a litre of cold water in at first. This is to avoid any detergent placed in the soap drawer being washed down into the sump and wasted. Also, in the majority of situations the cold water pressure is a fair bit higher than the hot. These last two points mean that the chances are only about 4 L from the hot water supply would be drawn.
There is every chance that the 2 and 1/2 litres in your pipework is cold or at least not very warm. By the time the washing machine has finished filling it may well have fetched in about 1 and 1/2 litres of hot water. However, when the washing machine stops filling it will also have drawn in about 4 litres of hot water to replace all the water in the 10 m of pipework. This hot water is likely to be wasted and quickly cool down. If this water is “free” it’s not a big problem but the overwhelming majority of people pay for their hot water.In cases where the hot water is supplied via a hot water cylinder then there is extra wastage because all the water that went into the washing machine, plus all the water that replaced it in the pipework, would be replaced by cold water from the header tank. This would then cool down the water in the cylinder and probably trigger the heater to bring it back up to temperature.
So in the majority of cases there is a knock-on effect of drawing “hot” water into a washing machine which involves a lot of waste. The argument is that it is much more environmentally friendly and economical to just heat up the water inside the machine.
Washing machines have never been so economical to use, they have never used less water and they’ve never used less electricity than they do now. The holy Grail is to make washing machines that are more economical than a competitor’s. If using hot water was more economical and gave better wash results for the average household then surely manufacturers would use it.
As I have said all along, hot fill is really only important to those of us who have free hot water – and I have gallons of the stuff right now!
I see nobody’s commented on my point about the sterilising benefits of hot washes.
I replied Richard ( Comment 28 )
Your point was that cold water washing would be bad because only near boiling water kills the parasites eggs but almost every garment would be damaged at this temperature. Only white cottons and nappies have ever been washed at these temperaturres as far as I know.
Virtually no one washes at 90 degrees any more and few even wash at 60 degrees. Therefore the problem you describe is applicable equally now, and cold water washes shouldn’t make any difference because none of the parasites eggs are currently being destroyed any way.
The temperature needed to kill bacteria is 70 degrees centigrade. That’s far lower than boiling – and far higher than the low-temperature washes now in vogue.
Most parasites are destroyed at lower temperatures than bacteria – around 60 degrees.
Washing at 30 degrees relies far too much on the efficacy of the detergent as a lethal agent, to my mind.
I’m in Australia. It would be 15 years since I have washed with hot water. Every household I know washes with cold water, in fact you have to go to a small section in the supermarket to buy hot water detergent.
Does anyone have any comment to make about dishwashers? I can’t see cold-water dishwashing catching on – if only because the crocks would never dry!
My first dishwasher had hot and cold fill.
Richard: Rinse aid is supposed to make the water run off as it breaks the surface tension. Don’t know if they’d dry though without heat. Some dishwashers used to have hot air blown over the dishes to dry them which would solve the problem, but that would cancel out the savings in energy gained by washing in cold water.
Oh yes, the crocks rinse just fine – but I’m sure they would never dry if they were washed in cold water. The last rinse is in near-boiling water and that’s why the crocks are dry when the cycle’s finished.
As I said, my first dishwasher had hot and cold fill but my next one didn’t. The reason, I was told, was that introducing hot water at the outset tended to bake food residues onto the crockery. However, I don’t believe that since it would be simple enough to run an initial cycle with cold water and then introduce the hot.
Since I have as much free hot as I can use between April and September it grieves me to have to pay to warm up cold water using full-price electricity. But that point I have already made.
Hi Richard / all,
I’m with you Richard: I have more solar hot water than I can shake a stick at, a very short run of pipe to the Washer from the cylinder and was most of my laundry at 60 (+) degrees.
I posted on the other board a few days ago because my 25 year old Hoover washer is on it’s last legs. However, for dishwashing may I reccommend that you look at Miele. I bought my Miele d/w 18 months ago and one of the reasons for the choice of brand was that it accepts hot or cold water fill. I have it on hot and it has slashed the cycle time and my electricity bills! I notice that the instructions for the d/w specifically reccommed hot connection if you have solar water, so Miele are clearly thinking about this issue a littel bit….but sadly not enough to deal with the washing machine.
My mum had a Hoover the same as mine (we bought them at the same time in fact in the middle of the miners’ strike!). Sadly her’s finally gave up the ghost about a year ago and she bought a Miele washer because the blurb in the shop stated that the washer coudl be connected to hot fill but you had to bear in mind that it would then rinse in hot. We were both very angry when the machine arrived and there was a great big sticker on the back next to the valve staing “do not connect to hot water”. When we made enquiries it turned out that this was a very recent “design improvement”. We asked Miele if we could ignore it but they said that the warranty woudl be invalidated if we did, and since it comes with a 15 year guarantee as standard we didn’t want to risk that on a £700 machine.
I’m intrigued by the Hotpoint machines, and even a few new Hoovers, that have two valves on the back, in Hotpoint’s case marked “H” and “C”, but come with a Y adapter pre fitted. I want to know if I can buy one of these, take the Y off, and plumb in to Hot and Cold as before, but Hoover and Hotpoint won’t tell me, they just say that the machines are cold fill only. I’m not convinced. Washerhelp – have you any insider knowledge on these?
One final comment on washing efficiency. Mum’s washing in the Miele was noticeably less clean than in the Hoover until she started to use the “extra water” setting on every wash – strikes me that savings in water are outweighed by shorter life of clothes due to lower standards of cleaning. Even the Miele instruction book implies that using the extra water setting may improve results.
I may be only 40 (and 2 days!!) and therefore relatively young, but I’m getting increasingly suspicious of modern contraptions as time goes on ………………….
Interestingly enough, I did an internet search and found that one manufacturer (Hotpoint) did come up as supplying H & C fill machines. But when I looked at the machine specifications there was nothing about the fill. Their website similarly was innocent of information about this aspect.
So I wrote to them; they didn’t have the courtesy to answer.
Sadly it’s not only modern design that is occasionally a retrograde step; it is also modern manners and business ethics. My standards for replying to emails and/or snailmails is that I always reply within 24 hours – even it’s to say no more than “Sorry, can’t help you”.
Yes, Richard, I am totally withyou on this too. I have had several very heated arguments with council officials, MP’s and even a couple of Government ministers on this point. Seems that no longer do manners maketh the man (or woman). Hmm……
I rang Hotpoint about the washers. The woman who took the call was reasonably pleasant, but when I asked about the machine and quoted the model number (WD421) of one I had seen in the shop she first of all said it was a discontinued model and that I must have the wrong model number, but when I said that I was quite sure but if she liked I’d go and take a pic and send it she then said that it might actually be a new model not on her list yet! Either way her answer to the H&C matter was a blanket “all our washer are cold fill only now”. Plain, simple but I remain unconvinced. I wish I could pop into the shop with a screwdriver and pop the lid off; I’d put a hefy gamble on finding that it is just a traditional hot and cold fill but that to “keep up wityh the jones’” they have stopped admitting it. I’d put money on the Hoover ones I’ve seen (some of the “Nextra” range) being the same, but again the lady on the phone at Merthyr Tydfil was polite, pleasant and effciient but simply said “none of our macines take hot water any more”. She even put me throught to someone she described as “an engineer” to double check, but he also just trotted out” we don’t do hot fill now”. The matter of the Hoover is rather academic for me anyway; we’ve always had *everything* Hoover for longer than I’ve been alive: I still use a Hoover Junior 375 of my grandparents and it works like a dream, I even have a local shop that still stocks the parts, but my last Dishwasher was Hoover and it was, sadly, a disaster. They’re all Candy with a Hoover badge and importeds from the Hoover / Candy works in Italy. So I’m afraid I would be very hesitant indeed to buy Hoover now. Maybe Washerhelp or some other reader knows a someone in the S/yorks area who will still fit me new drum bearings in my Electron 1100? Last quote I had was £120, but when I said I’d happily pay that the man said “actually, mate, we wouldn’t do it, not on a machine that age”, so I suspect the quote was artifically high to try to put me off.
Great to compare notes with you Richard, both on hot fill, and manners!
D
I mentioned the Hotpoint washing machines as part of my washing machine and hot valve articles. Here’s what I said -
The situation is bizarre. My assumption is that they decided to change to cold fill but for some reason it suits them to keep using the old hot and cold fill machines. Presumably they convert them to cold fill by supplying the y-piece but the machines software could be designed to be cold fill only.
I’m also assuming that if you connected a hot supply to the hot valve and a cold to the cold valve instead of using the y-piece to connect just cold to both valves that either hot water will be drawn in on rinses (because it’s energising both valves simultaneously) or it will work as a hot and cold fill machine but the wash results will be skewed because the wash programmes are designed for cold fill.
It could just be though that they haven’t bothered to redesign anything and it’s a pseudo cold fill machine done cheap.
On the point about wash efficiency and lower water usage, washing machine manufacturers give us what they think we are demanding. If they gave us what they think is best for wash results we’d get different machines. I don’t believe any manufacturer would have come up with such drastically reduced water usage unless market forces and environmental concerns forced their hand. I’m sure if there were no perceived consequences they would use at least twice as much water as they currently do.
The current rage is low water usage and low energy usage both of which come with downsides. Poorer rinsing and much longer wash times. However, given that washing machines currently have to use so little water and so little energy you should get better results with a quality machine than with a cheap one when both are using low amounts of water.
I predict (slightly tongue-in-cheek) that one day washers will recycle all their water by cleaning it and reusing it. Then they could use as much as they need. Mind yo they’d need a big storage tank. Actually the chances are that they’ll eventually not use any water at all. Dirt will be removed by micro waves or by bombarding with ironised particles or something.
Dave: You’d be amazed how many washing machine repairers quote very high prices to get rid of jobs they don’t want to do or even customers they don’t want to deal with ( I’m positive it’s the former with you :-) ) it seems you called their bluff. Their answer of they wouldn’t do it on a machine that age sounds a bit pompous. If you are happy to have it done and they make money by doing it why all of a sudden display the morals?
I know someone in Sheffield that would probably do it, if he can still get the parts though. it’s possible they are obsolete. Please email me to discuss.
On a related note, but one which will become increasingly important as fuel cost continue to soar, is the financial benefits that will increasingly accrue from the use of solar water heating.
I don’t use gas for cooking and since April I have used just under £2 worth of gas – which is the amount needed to keep the boiler pilot light running. British Gas clearly didn’t believe my reading and sent a man to check – but I was correct. I have had all the hot water I need (including that for baths and showers) without using any gas at all; the only fuel cost for water heating has been that of the electricity used to heat the water my dishwasher and washing machine.
You can understand why I would prefer hot-fill machines!
I think any washing machine manufacturer looking ahead should consider reintroducing hot water valves. Not like they used to be used, but with more sophisticated technology.
There are several problems associated with properly utilising hot water which are clearly defined in my article, but I’m sure if they put their mind to it they could come up with some method of utilising hot water in certain circumstances and for certain wash temperatures.
The biggest problem is the cooling of hot water in the pipework which means to draw hot water in would mean drawing much more than necessary in many cases until it starts to run hot. This would waste water. it could theoretically be stored and then used on rinses but there’s not much room to store it.
I suppose the question has to be asked, which is the less of 2 evils – wasting a few litres of water or wasting free or cheap hot water?
The answer to your last question depends on the relative cost of the water. My cold water is metered and so I pay for any waste – but I suspect the cost of the wasted water is less than the cost of heating water with electricity – and I suspect that the cost of power will increase more rapidly than will the cost of water.
After all, water isn’t running out and fossil fuels are.
PS to my last. With the announcement by British Gas today that gas prices (and obviously electricity prices) are set to increase by 60% “over the next few years” I think my belief, as expressed in my penultimate paragraph above, is vindicated.
As mentioned in http://www.grumpyoldman.be/batteries-not-included/ I’m using a device which makes it perfectly feasible to connect the hot water tap to a washing machine, which is very useful if you have e.g. a sun boiler.
Thanks to Eddy for this information. I’ve read Eddy’s article and followed his link to the home page for the device he mentions. After some little tme and some help from Eddy I managed to find the English Language version of the text. I am very impressed; this is a device that I shall give extremely serious consideration to purchasing, even though it is quite costly at present. As far as I can see this opens up the way to a huge choice of new washing machines whilst retaining the ability to use domestic hot water. As I understand it, though, standard UK washing machine taps would not have the non-return feature that is requuired, so a small aletration to the plumbing would be required for many people; however the non-return valves that are needed are readily available from the major DIY chains and any good plumbers merchant for well under £2 each and are a compression fitting so are within the capabilities of all but the most inept of DIY’ers.
I note with great interest that the manufacturer of thsi product states in theior literature “”A hot water tap for the washing machine is standard in all newer houses” – this seems to suggest that the German building regulations are aiming towards hot fill washers…..wonder when the washer manufacturers will catch up?????? Thanks Eddy – very enlightening.
Any more feedback on this valve would be useful, thanks.
When you say it’s expensive, how much? It looks like a good device but my washing machine only uses 1.02 kWh per cycle and another machine I just checked is an Electrolux AAA washing machine that only uses 0.85 kWh/cycle. These figures are (presumably) based on a 40 degree wash heating the water up from cold.
Modern washing machines (especially if A rated) use very little energy. If installing one of these devices is a lot of messing about and costs a lot of money it could take many years to recoup. There’s nothing wrong with investing money in something that takes many years to recoup but I’m just trying to get some perspective as to how much is likely to be saved. The average cost of washing a load is probably only about (very roughly) 14p although prices are rising.
As I keep saying, a modern washing machine typically only takes in a washing up bowlful of water so it is very hard to get any hot water into a modern washing machine if filling with hot and cold simultaneously even if you have a free supply.
Even with this device, by the time the hot water starts to run into the washer it will most probably have taken enough water in and stopped filling.
I would imagine this device would be of little use when washing at 30 or 40 degrees. Even if the device only lets hot water in at first, all I can see happening is the first litre or so is likely to be cold to tepid because it’s all cooled in the pipework, then when proper hot water comes in the device should detect it’s 60 degrees and immediately start taking in cold instead because the device is set to 40. If washing at 60 or 90 degrees it would be better and you would get some hot water in the machine after the initial cooled hot water has run in, but how many people wash at these temperatures most of the time?
The only people I can see that this issue would be worth pursuing is someone who does all of the following –
I agree that modern washing machine are more energy efficient than older ones. There even exist hot fill versions of machines.
Points 3 and 4 count for me. The device can be useful for older machines or for people not wanting to spend too much money on a washing machine.
I’ve made an assumption about how the device would work if set to 40 degrees. Most people’s hot water is set at 60 degrees or higher. I’ve assumed if the device is set to 40 degrees, when 60 degree+ water starts to flow it would shut it off because it’s too hot. If by any chance it is sophisticated enough to be able to mix the hot and cold to maintain the flow into the washer at 40 degrees then my point about it being no use for 40 degree washes would need amending.
If this was the case though, you might get a slightly reduced wash efficiency when using biological detergent if the water is already 40 degrees because manufacturers say you get better results with biological detergents when the water is initially cold and the water slowly rises to 40 degrees.
There is also the possibility that wash results could be degraded further if water enters at the “correct” temperature if washing machine programmes are set to move on after reaching temperature. Like it or not, modern wash programmes are designed to start with cold and heat it up. It is possible that starting at the correct temperature could shorten the wash programme.
I have already commented about the possible adverse effects of washing clothes at only 40 degrees; I prefer to wash at 60.
However, this German alfamix device looks as though it might do the trick. Unfortunately the English-language version of the site does not mention the device and my German is not adequate to understand everything written on the main site.
But although this discussion is about clothes washers, how much more valuable would such a device be for dishwashing machines, which use far hotter water and, I suspect, more water – although I’ve not been able to check this.
I would like to know whether there is a duplex alfamix that would supply two streams of water – one to the dishwasher and one to the washing machine – or whether one needs to buy two alfamixes. I will try to find out.
Incidentally, Eddy De Clercq suggests that hot-fill versions of washing machines do exist – but not anywhere in the UK so far as I have been able to establish.
When I looked at the English Language version of the information the price I saw was just over €200 – which at present exchange rates is well over GB£100 I think?
As a bit of an electronics enthusiast I can imagine how this device *might* work and can see that the cost of the parts will be very low indeed, however I suppose that the retail cost reflects the tooling cost pf making up the steel casings and some sort of very product-specific “T” piece of valve pipe with a threaded outlet.
How glad I am that I did not throw out my twin tub – I have control over water temp and volume.
The automatic still needs me there to peg the washing out. It has a hot water fill with a supply close by – the machine goes straight into wash once the water has arrived. Dread having to replace it.
I would love to use my solar heated water supply created on the patio (can not afford the panels I’m afraid) but hesitate to literally pour it into my top loader would the machine register that it was there?
Hi,
The Alfamix detection sensor is only made for washing machines and not for dish washer.I did a Google UK search could find hot fills at http://uk.shopping.com/xGS-hot_&_cold_water_fill_washing_machine and http://www.dealtime.co.uk/-hot+fill+washing+machine
Also check this discussion.
Eddy
Richard: I assumed when Eddie said hot fill washing machines he meant washing machines with hot valves as well as cold valves. I can’t imagine any washing machine being made without a cold water valve. It would be a total waste of resources to rinse in hot water, plus it would crease much of the laundry and even shrink woollens and other delicate items.
Lesley: Top loaders work differently to front loaders. If you put water manually into it then it will register it.
Eddy: None of the Hotpoint’s listed say they are hot and cold fill in the specs. It seems Whirlpool do a few hot and fill machines though.
Richard / anyone interested.
Miele Dishwashers all carry advice in the installation section of the instruction book advising the use of HOT water to fill, if it is heated by any method other than electricity, in order to save energy. My is on hot fill and works great.
On the Alfamix site, can’t quite recall exactly where but it was on one of the two English Language pdfs that you can download about the Alfamix itself, I saw an interesting statement which, as exactly as I can recall it, said “Almost all dishwashers will accept hot water”. (The same document said that “Most newly built houses will have a hot water supply for the washing machine”.) Seems to suggest that the German makers of Alfamix assume that hot fill dishwashers and hot and cold washers are the future???? (Odd when Miele make NO hot and cold fill washers, but hey ho….).
Going back to dishwashers, I am sure that Washerhelp will have more technical knowledge than me but depending on the brand you may need to limit the temperature of the incoming water. My old Hoover dishwasher said that connection to hot was fine as long as it was no hotter than 60 degrees C. Someone I worked with 15 years ago bought a Hotpoint dishwasher (in the days when they and Bosch were the same) that accepted hot or cold and had no limit on the incoming temperature (at least not stated) but needed a “hot fill kit”, which turned out to be a new fill hose with a steel braid around it and no flow restrictor. You may well find that if you contact the maker of your machine (or read the small print in the manual) that you can already use hot water.
Dave: Some dishwashers can be damaged if you use hot water, or at least that’s what I was told when I was briefly an engineer for Comet. I was told that hot water could damage the salts used for filtration and water softening in the dishwasher. All water going into a dishwasher passes through a plastic housing containing special minerals and salts.
As all dishwashers have these, it never made any sense to me that hot water would damage some and not others. To be on the safe side though, it would be best to check individual instruction books to see if it mentions the use of a hot water supply.
Dishwashers are very different to washing machines with regards to hot water supply though. There is no delicate laundry to shrink or otherwise damage, and to aid drying, most heat up the final rinse water too.
Miele do actually make a hot and cold fill washing machine but it is not available in the UK. My contact has told me they have not decided whether or not it will be available here. I think it is available in Germany. The reason cited was as follows -
“Since most of the households throughout Europe usually only have a cold water tap, not all our washing machines are capable to utilise hot water. For those households with an additional hot water tap Miele (e.g. in Germany) offers this ‘target group’ washing machine.”
However, most households in the UK do have a hot water tap and always have. It is only because manufacturers have stopped fitting a hot water valve that most people have had to Cap it to off or just leave it unconnected. Also, why I wonder do most European households only have a cold supply? This does however confirm what I was told many years ago, that the UK hot water valve was removed simply to make our washing machines the same as the ones sold in Europe.
I can understand why, when selling washing machines throughout all Europe it just does not make sense for any washing machine manufacturer to make washing machines with hot water valves especially for us. Although they could certainly charge us for it. Production wise though it’s far preferable to them to just make one washing machine which can be sold through out Europe.
I contacted Miele a while back about their hot and cold fill washing machine which is called the Miele AllWater after I discovered its existence. I was curious to know why the selling point of this washing machine was that it was much more economical to run – which is in direct contradiction to washing machine manufacturers’ claims that cold water washing machines are more economical.
This is the text used to promote the Miele hot and cold fill washing machine -
Of course I was completely puzzled by this promotional text so I questioned it and the answer I received was that the basis for the calculation claiming “considerable annual savings” are based on “washing for four persons, 250 cycles per year with a hot water temperature of 55° C”
I took that to mean washing at 55° rather than a water temperature supply of 55°. The phrasing is open to ambiguity but it would make sense that if washing at around 60° most of the time it would be cheaper if you had a hot water supply which is what I have always contended.
The evidence so far appears to indicate that as most people in the UK wash at 40° for the majority of washes, and typically have hot water supplied via a hot water cylinder upstairs with a long pipe run in which hot water cools down then most people just do not need a hot water valve.
However I believe that in this day and age washing machines should be more sophisticated in this area. In an age where conserving energy is highly desirable, is it acceptable for all washing machines to be forced to take in only cold water when clearly this is only “good” for an average (even if majority) of households?
There are many people that may not use biological detergents, do not have hot water cylinders with long pipe runs, have free or cheap hot water supplies (such as solar powered) or who wash regularly at 60° or even higher. These people should be able to utilise hot water in their washing machines.
This is particularly relevant as now all washing machine manufacturers recommend doing a weekly maintenance wash of at least 60°. So by their own recommendation everybody should be doing at least one 60° wash each week, and in this circumstance they should not be forced to heat up the water if they have solar powered hot water available. Even if they have a normal supply, if they are simply doing a maintenance wash they should be able to utilise their hot water.
Maybe it is time to put the hot valve back even if it is only used when a special maintenance wash programme is selected or if their user tells the washing machine that there is hot water available that they want to utilise. Even if this means counteracting the cooled water in the pipes problem by either taking it into a separate container for use in the rinses or by even pumping the first litre or so away if it is not hot.
That’s really interesting and very thought provoking – thanks for all that detail.
I’d noticed that the “maintainence wash” thing is common and I had made a mental note, possibly not fully accurate as it was my own conclusion, that as I wash about 2/3rds of my laundry at around 60 degrees I probably would not need to do these maintainence washes if I had a new machine (I’ve never done one in my Hoover and in 25 years it’s never been smelly or had slime in the door seal or left slimy particles on laundry, which are all “symptoms” listed in the manufacturers’ blurbs that I have read which mention maintenance washing. Even the soap drawer never gets clogged up and I hardly ever remove it and clean in the cavity these days, even though I was scrupulous about doing so for probably the first 10 years of the machine’s life).
To me the necessity for such “Maintainence” cycles sees to suggest that, regardless of what manufacturers and the Government, etc., want to fob us off with, actually hot washing is not only better for the laundry (as Richard has said several times and I totally agree) but also better for the life of the machine?
As you rightly say, the consumer should not have to pay to heat water to 60 degrees when it’s sat in the cylinder (especially not when it’s water that is thrown away – it’s not even washing clothes, just cleaning the machine!!).
I wonder if the Miele machine that you mention (available in Germany) has anything to do with any German building regs or anything like that? Mum has a penfiend in Germany who told her several years ago that building regs over there were constantly being tightened up to make homes as “green” as possible and I know that Anita (the penfriend) has had Solar water heating and a wind turbine for well over a decade now. Perhaps, tying this in with the Alfa Mix blurb, Germany is (yet again) well ahead of much of the rest of Europe, including the UK, with technology not only for heating water in the house but also for making Washing Machines utilise the hot water more efficiently?
(Wonder if I could import one of these all water machines…………………;-)
Dave: I reckon if people started asking Miele about this topic they may start to listen. I have good contacts at Miele but at the end of the day, their customers will carry more weight than me alone.
Anyone interested in asking Miele directly can try here -
Miele customer contact page
Please keep us informed of any information discovered.
I’ve mailed Miele and also looked up the “Softtronic W 3841 WPS Allwater” on miele.de. I’ll post here with whatever response I get.
Thanks again to Washerhelp for all his extensive input in this topic.
I’ve had a very fast response from Miele which may be of interest to all reading this who are looking for a hot fill washer. (It also seems to tie in quite well with what Washerhelp said yesterday about Dishwashers and hot water. Rathher than summarising the response I will copy and paste it in it’s entirity here:
“Dear Mr Dxxxxxx,
Like our dishwashers our washing machines may also be connected to hot fill only. However we do tend to recommend they are connected to cold fill. If you connect to hot fill, we say the temperature can be not greater than 60′c, but if the temperature is this high it is likely you will be not be able to benefit from the lower temperature washes such as 40′C if the hot water you are using is above this temperature. If the hot water is greater than 60′C is could start to deteriorate the water softening unit in the machine so I would not recommend water this hot.
In regards to the W3841 this is not a model we supply over in the UK and I would advise contacting Miele in Germany direct to see if they would be able to supply this to the UK for you. Their email address is info@miele.de We are not looking to import this into the UK for sale on the UK market as we already have an Allerwash on sale in the UK.
I hope this helps.
Regards,
Laura Axxxxx”
I will now follow Laura’s advice and mail Miele in Germany. I’ll post any response I get on here too.
Nice one Dave:
I find it puzzling that anyone could recommend connecting a washing machine only to a hot water supply though. This would be incredibly wasteful as a single wash would decimate a tank full of hot water which would all need heating back up. A washer can use 40+ litres of water only several of which need to be anything but stone cold. You just don’t rinse laundry in hot water.
Connecting hot water to a cold fill washing machine
Hi all,
I replied to Laura at Miele thanking her for the information and also asking her to confirm that her advice applied to a specific Miele machine which my mother has. This particular machine’s installation instructions specifically state “this machine is *not* suitable for connection to a hot water supply”.
Laura has kindly looked into this and, disappointingly in some ways, has sent this response:
“Dear Mr Dxxxxxxx,
I am very sorry to disappoint you and I apologise sincerely, but unfortunately our washing machines are cold-fill only. I have double checked this through my technical colleague. From what I was aware the washing machines were like our dishwashers, however this is not the case as if one hot-fills a machine you will experience very poor rinse results. For this inconvenience, I have arranged to send you a selection of accessories for your dishwasher. These should be with you in 2-3 working days and can be tracked with us on 212903254.
Regards,
Laura Axxxxxx”
I have replied to Laura again thanking her very much for this further information (and her generous apology too) and asking that she please forward a request to the relevant managers at Miele UK asking them to seriously consider importing the hot and cold fill machine.
I have not yet had a response from Miele Germany.
Unfortunately the first line people at manufacturers telephone help lines often give advice that’s not correct or just don’t know answers to questions. At least she was honest about the mistake and the freebies are nice.
You wrote, “…Richard: I assumed when Eddie said hot fill washing machines he meant washing machines with hot valves as well as cold valves. …” I assumed the same – I was being careless with my use of language.
I have had no response from the alfamix people and assume that they either can’t read English or don’t care about foreign customers. That is a shame since a device that admits hot, cold or a mix of water as needed would be a good idea and avoid my having to replace my existing cold-fill machines before I need to.
Following one of the links in Eddy’s posting I found several machines but not one mentioned that it was hot and cold fill. Indeed, none of the descriptions I could find for washer or dishwashers gave information about the fills. However, the Hotpoint AQGL129PI washer/dryer, the model that would most interest me, actually states that its energy consumption per wash is 1.36 KwHrs and it couldn’t be so specific if there was one consumption rating for hot and another for cold and I must therefore assume that it is cold fill only. It also states that its water consumption per wash is 18.23 Gallons – a significant amount of water and a quantity that would certainly be worth getting heated for nothing.
Interestingly I have been unable to find comparable figures for dishwashers but I would assume that the power consumption, if not the water consumption, would be more than for washing machines.
Hello Richard: The amount of water used on “wash” will be a fraction of that figure. The figure quoted must be for the entire wash cycle. I can’t imagine 18 gallons would even fit in the drum at one time.
The amount of water heated up is only small. That’s part of the argument for not needing a hot valve. With most washing machines you can’t even see any water in the drum on wash it’s that low whereas 15 years ago the water was half way up the glass.
Most manufacturers spray water onto the clothes when washing, either by scooping it up with the drum lifters (paddles) and sprinkling it on the clothes as the drum rotates or by pumping water into the drum during wash with a separate pump and spray system (Zanussi have been doing it for many years). That way they hardly have to use any water on the actual wash where water is heated. My washing machine takes only one bowlful of water in for wash.
Another point I make in my article (on Washerhelp if not this blog) is that buying a rubbish machine just because it has a hot valve can be very counter productive. Even if you have a system set up that will use the hot water and do lots of hot washes most or even all the “savings” in heating water could be wiped out by the fact the washer breaks down more often or needs replacing much sooner.
Surely it’s better to have a reliable and long lasting cold fill washing machine than a less reliable short lived one with a hot valve? As far as I know, no high quality washing machine has a hot valve.
I’m sure you’re right and that the figure quoted is for a washing cycle. But the current consumption will presumably be correct.
I agree about buying rubbish; I’d never consider buying cheap just to get a facility that is only marginally useful. But my experience is that it is usually the better-quality machines (all machines, not just washing machines) have more facilities than cheaper once. That is one reason why they cost more.
That top-quality machine presently don’t have hot and cold fill is regrettable – but then, neither do the lower-quality ones.
And of course, it’s not simply a question of cash; we all need to try to conserve energy as well – which is why I spent several thousand pounds on my solar water-heating system.
A further reply has come from Miele, this time from a different person:
Dear Mr Dxxxxx
Thank you for your e-mail, i shall of course pass this on to our management team so that they may investigate, and look at the possibility of importing the W3841.
Many thanks again
Rob Wxxxxxx
Customer Support Advisor
I’m interested in what has been said above about water consumption….the Hotpoint at 18 Gallons especially. My ancient Hoover A3260 (Electron 1100) only uses 95 litres (isn’t that about 15 gallons?) for a Whites Economy wash according to the instruction book. This has a hot only fill for the wash and then washes at 70 oC, a dilution rinse (adds cold water to the hot wash water for safety before draining – comes up to the bottom edge of the glass), 2 high level rinses (water 1/3 of the way up the door), a short spin, 2 more high level rinses and a fast, long spin. How come a 25 year old machine is seemingly using, if anything, less water than a modern one. I don’t know what capacity the drum is on the Hotpoint mentioned, but most machines these days seem to be between 6 and 8 kg – mine’s only 4.5 kg, so the drum and tub must be smaller surely? Maybe this is why less water is used, but if so are we not simply saying that, kg of laundry for Litre of water, modern machines actually use just as much?!?!
This has got me so intrigued that I went and did a little experiment of letting my washer fill to the wash level with cold water, then draining it into a bucket with gallon markers to see how much hot water is used on a wash with hot fill. It came out at a fraction less than 1.75 gallons (7.95 litres) for the wash level. I repeated the experiment with the rinse level water – this time it was bang on 5 gallons (22.73 litres). So for a whites wash (as described above) that’s 1.75 gallons + 3.25 gallons + 20 gallons = 25 gallons of water (113.65 litres). Clearly this is more than the instruction book claims, but I suppose the fact that there was no laundry to retain water after the wash and each rinse probably affected the rinse water cut off point and also of course the machine would never drain as empty as I did because my bucket was below the bottom of the tub and so every last drop drained out – normally the hose would be in the stand pipe well above the tub so there would be some water in the sump before the machine started to fill.
Whatever the variance between the book and the reality though, I did notice that the amount of water used for the wash (1.75 gallons) was much less than I expected. It’s less than a bucket full. Surely this must compare pretty favorably with modern machines? I don’t use a washing up bowl, but I have an old one in the greenhouse and that holds well over 1.5 gallons, so looking at references to “ a bowlful” of hot water for washing it strikes me that it can’t be so far off what this old machine uses?
Hi Dave:
95 litres is nearly 21 UK gallons (25 US gallons). It’s possible that the whites economy programme uses less water.
Your point about the old Hoover A3260 only having a 4.5kg drum actually shows how much water it used compared with a modern 6kg drum. With a much smaller drum it should need less water but it uses more water than a modern 6 or 7kg modern machine.
With larger drums you might need a bit more water but as you are washing much larger loads that’s much more economical.
Also modern machines usually have sensors to adjust the amount of water used according to the amount of laundry and even the absorbency of the laundry.
I used an online conversion calculator which says that 1.75 gallons is 6.62 litres. This will be more than modern washing machines.
It’s all very interesting, however one thing is for sure: if a modern machine uses less than 6.62 litres of water for the wash (and especially if it can hold more laundry and is filled to capacity) I refuse to accept that it can possibly be washing things clean!!! Call me old fashioned but I want my washing to be well and truely soaked and thrashed about in water. This, I suspect, is why mum uses the “water plus” on her Miele; she did feel it wasn’t washing as clean as her old machine before she started to do this. Since you don’t get any better quality than Miele now heaven knows what cheaper machines are like!
Modern detergents are supposed to be more effective. Also, the point of the wash pumps and sprinkling of water by the drum paddles is that laundry can be saturated with water without being totally submerged in it. In the same way you can get just as clean under a shower, using less water, as you can soaking in a bath.
However, one area that is impacted by the reduction of water seems to be rinsing. Even Miele washing machines were being rated as Which? Best Buys but with the caveat of “poor” rating for rinsing. In fact out of 125 washing machines being reviewed when I last checked only a handful were rated as adequate at rinsing.
I see the point about the sprinkling / spraying wash systems – this seems like an excellent idea which I’m all in favour of. What I can’t understand is how a machine like mine has so little wash water that you can’t see it at all when there is any laundry in, and yet newer machines can apparently use even less for more washing…..seems like having “less than nothing” !!! Even with the spray systems this seems strange to my luddite brain.
The rinsing makes a lot of sense – if you think about how much cold water you need to get all the soap suds out of a dish cloth, bath sponge, flannel, etc., Even out of a scrubbing brush or nail brush. It takes many many times more water to get rid of the soap from any of those things than it did to get the suds there to start with, so little wonder that Which? are making these comments and that manufacturers like Miele are offering options, buttons and programme selections which add “extra” water or additional rinses. Now I maybe barkingup the wrong tree here, but wouldn’t part of the solution be to make the machine run a spin, even if very short, as soon as it drains the wash water? Surely if the maximum possible amount of sudsy water was expelled from the laundry before rinsing started then it woudl be easier to get rid of the soap residue? Or would spinning either create more suds in some way I’ve not thought of or concentyrate the soap residue by removing water but leaving soap particles? I’m always amazed at how soapy the water from teh second rinse on my machine is when the intermediate spin kicks in, yet the 3rd rinse water is almost crystal clear, so clearly that spin makes a tremendous difference, but it does come after 2 rinses (and on hot programmes a dilution rinse too).
Most washing machines do spin during rinses or after a rinse especially on cottons.
Your A3260 should fill to just below the lip of the drum on wash and about half way up the glass on rinses.
Well, I’ll cross my fingers and hope to goodness that it doesn’t pack up on me, but my A3260 has never ever filled up to above where the door seal fastens to the tub on wash and for rinse the water just touches the part of the door glass where the vertical innermost part starts, at the end of the “slope”. This, of course, is when there is no laundry in, or when there is such a small load that at least part of the drum is still visible. When it’s got a normal load in you can’t see any water on wash (but plenty runs down the glass when the drum turns so the laundry is obviously soaked) except on programme “G” (woollens”) and the delicates cycle when it comes up to the same level as rinses. On rinse the water comes about 2/3 of the way up the “slope” of the glass when the pressure switch clunks and the water stops. Maybe the pressure switch in mine has been slightly out of adjustment all it’s life?
It’s interesting to hear a professional’s view of where it should be going; but it never has done as far as I recall, so I guess I should be pleased that it’s worked like this for quarter of a century using less water than expected!!!
Just been in Atkinson’s (our department store) with mum for lunch. We looked at domestic appliances a bit and teh lady who sold me my dishwasher and mum her Miele washer said hello to us. She remembered our conversation over a year ago about hot fill and said that she’s noticed a lot more people asking for it lately; she puts it down to the ever increassing cost of electricity. Interestingly she said taht the *thought* that the Dyson Contrarotator had hot fill, but as far as she knows that was so unpopular that it’s not made any more. I’m afraid I’d never touch any Dyson product with a barge pole, so I never bothered to look when they were in the shops round here. For anyone wanting a washer now it may be worth investigating if they are still made?
Sorry Dave, I meant to say drum not door glass (I’ve edited my description). Hoover washing machines always filled half way up the glass on rinses (unless half load button is selected) but they did reduce the amount a little with the Eco models about 15 years or so back.
I really liked the Dyson. I have one and wrote a good review about it. However, it was way over priced and too radical in design so it didn’t sell enough. I would imagine most John Lewis customers would have hated its look, which was pretty extreme.
Dyson washing machine picture
2 litres per wash? 2 gallons more like!
Most machines I looked at specify a little under 50 litres for the full wash cycle.
Heating water with electricity is much more expensive than with gas, and my combi boiler is right above the washing machine. I WANT to have the option to use it, especially when I have several loads to get through in one day.
Which? has just published a survey of washers. I wrote to them some weeks ago and asked about hot-fill and received an automated acknowledgment and was living in hopes that they might mention the topic. Some hopes – no mention even of my letter, let alone of a suitable machine.
The survey was probably compiled a while back. I think it would be a good idea though for Which? to look into the whole hot water valve issue.
Richard (and everyone else).
I have had two “arguments” with the people at Which? on this subject. The first was about a year and a half ago when I tried a trial subscription and when I cancelled (after reading their washer reports whilst looking for a new washer for my mum) the woman on the phone wanted to know why I was cancelling. I told her plainly that I was aware of (at that time) two manufacturers making hot fill washers (LG and Hotpoint, who still advertised 1 washer and one washer-dryer with H&C fill at that date) and had hoped to see reviews of these machines in the tests and articles. She flatley denied that any manufacturer still made hot fill washers and was quite rude about it so I demanded to speak to her supervisor. The supervisor came on the line, apologised fo rthe first woman’s rudeness and asked where I had seen these hot fill washers advertsied. I gave her links to the manufacturer’s websites and she (claimed to have) looked them up there and then, agreed that yes, they were advertising H&C fill models and then tried to fob me off with “but they’re just old models, it won’t be worth us testing them because they’ll soon not be made any more”. I pointed out that LG’s machines were being hailed as pioneering and Energy Saving Trust recommended but she just said “well we can’t test everything” and ended the conversation.
Very recently I tried another free trail when I was forced to buy a new washer as my old one had actually stopped being useable. Again, no sign of mention of H&C fill, even though 2 LG models that they review do have a hot connection (one being the one I bought). I e-mailed them and asked why this was not mentioned, especially when Miele also make a H&C model that is only available in Europe at present, so clearly there is a demand. I got a “stock” response saying that they would “take my comments into account when they conduct a new review”.
I hold out no hope, but then to be frank I don’t really reckon much to the Which? tests and reports anyway.
See the “I want a washing machine with a hot valve” board for my on-going experiences with the LG – it isn’t all bad but as yet I am rather disappointed.
Can I also recommend that everyone interested in this topic mails the Miele customer service centre asking why on earth they don’t import the W3841 AllWater (AllWasser) to the UK – be careful though, one lady at Miele mis-read my message and thouight I wanted the *allerwash* and told me it was available. When I pointed out her error I got a free load of Dishwasher accessories as an apolopgy, but it really was her error; don’t ask about the wrong one by mistake!
I mourn and lament the passing of the dual fill washing machine. We always ran the hot tap in the adjacent sink to ensure the machine got 65 deg water. I reckon it costs me over 3 times more to heat water by electricity rather than gas even now on my currentt tarriffs. Given the run off time I reckon I am still over two times in pocket. I am convinced my early 80′s Philips machine mixed as per a power shower (not electrically heated!) on a thermostatic basis.
I notice assertions above that dishwashers are only cold fill – they are not – as if you look at the instructions they can be connected to a hot supply providing it is 65 deg or less. Most dishwaher cycles run at 65 deg or above anyway.
Leadbeter:
Modern washing machines use a lot less energy than ones from the 80s although how much of this reduction is due to using much less water compared to being cold fill isn’t clear.
Running the hot tap until piping hot water starts to come through ads a cost which you have not factored in. First it wastes up to a bowl full of water, and these days it’s reported to cost 19 pence per litre ( source – water costs ) If this is the case then wasting just 1 litre of water running a hot tap until hot water enters will cost more than the average 14 pence the washing machine costs in electricity to do an average wash.
Second, running the hot tap first not only wastes the water that runs through until hot arrives but if drawn from an immersion heater it also draws water from the hot water tank which is replaced by the header tank by cold. This cools down the water in the tank and may trigger the heater to come on to top it up.
Thirdly, all the water drawn into the pipework by taking in hot water (and it could be several litres) will most often just stay in the pipework from the hot tank to the washing machine and rapidly cool down. This is a complete waste of hot water and is why you usually need to run off water to find hot water.
A cold fill washing machine just draws in exactly the amount it needs (which isn’t much these days) and heats it up. There’s no waste at all. All manufacturers claim it saves money to not draw hot water.
Dishwashers
My understanding is that not all dishwashers are able to be connected to hot water. I was told on a training course once that connecting hot water to a dishwasher could cause problems with its water softening and filtering system which has minerals inside. However many manufacturers do say hot water can be used instead of cold.
The problem with connecting the hot water supply to a dishwasher is that all rinses will also be done in hot water. As all dishwashers are sold to be connected to cold water supplies I can’t understand why this would be if it was more economical to use hot water. As with many things in life it just doesn’t make sense. I need to research this more because I can’t decide which would be best. I can only say that you would expect logically that if it was more economical to use hot water then dishwashers would be hot fill by default, with the option to connect to cold if no hot was available.
Dishwashers rinse in hot water, I am sure; that’s the way that the dishes dry – by being hot from the final rinse. If they rinsed in cold the dishes would come out wet and would need to be dried manually.
Hello Richard. The dishes are hot at the end because most just energise the heating element after the last rinse. The water just runs off with the help of the rinse aid solution, this is combined with putting the heating element on without water. It’s possible some may even heat up the water on the last rinse, I know some used to have a fan to blow hot air over the dishes.
This is why I’m unsure whether connecting one to a hot water supply is cheaper than letting the dishwasher heat the initial wash water and then heat the last rinse or use the heater during the drying section. As I said before, if it was cheaper to use hot water I would expect dishwashers to be hot fill – not cold – by default.
Well, Possibly. I’m not inside the washer to find out. All I do know is that the dishes, when the cycle is finished, are very hot and there are still drops of (hot ) water on them.
The first Balay dishwasher I had (my first such machine) was hot and cold fill. The second Balay I had was only cold fill and the salesman told me that this was to improve the washing performance since hot fill meant that hot water would wash over the dirty dishes and bake the food onto them. I didn’t know whether to believe him or not – and still don’t.
You are right to be sceptical of a salesman Richard. They are too often ill informed and are only interested in a sale although depending on where you go some can be excellent. I know that hot water can set certain stains in laundry. As we know though, many dishwashers do allow connection to a hot water supply but presumably hot water only sets stains in fabrics.
Thank you. A very helpful blog. As someone who uses non-biological powder, has a very efficient solar panel and a hot water cylinder near my washing machine……. I think I will just phone the repair man back and tell him that I have changed my mind and perhaps I will spend £300 mending my 12 year old machine after all! Washing machine manufacturers please take note!
Jane: The problem is that a modern efficient washing machine using cold water only and having no hot valve only costs around £30 a year in energy. This is because as mentioned in my main articles, they hardly use any water on wash. This means that as pointed out in the other hot water valve thread ( I want a washing machine with a hot water valve ) this means that even if using a hot valve in ideal conditions halved the amount of electricity used you would only save around £15 a year.
Unless you do a lot of boil washes I would think it unlikely you would benefit from investing too much money in getting a washing machine with a hot valve.
Question: “What is energyefficiency?”
We had a lengthy debate at work today about this (we being me, my like-minded boss who is all for anything to do withthe environment and our semi-like minded head of Economics who is a bit of a guru on manufacturing indistries).
We decided that a really energy efficient product (any product, not just a washer) had to be:
Energy-efficient to make
Energy-efficient in use
Energy-efficient to get from maker to user
Have a longer-than-average life expectancy
Have greater-than-average reliability
Give a performance that meant that having to use the item more than once to get a good result was a rare exception
Consistently produce superb “output”
In terms of a washing machine surely this means a machine that has a life span of at least 10 years, is made in the country of use or in the nearest alternative country (as opposed to the opposite side of the globe), rarely breaks down (is this indicated by the manufacturer’s guarantee or is that an unreliable indicator I wonder?), uses the most economical source of water available (by which I mean either manually or automatically facilitates selection at the user’s installation), and both washes and rinses so well that additional rinsing or repeated cycles are not required.
I’m not going to advertise any brand here, but one maker comes to mind at once, at least for purchasers based in mainland Europe and the UK ………………………………. shame they don’t seem to import their multi-water-type machine to the UK yet!!!!
Hi
I have read your articles with interest.
I want to replace my very old hotpoint twin tub but I can’t.
I have been looking at automatics which I dont reallly want but there doesnt seem to be an alternative.
I would like to know why I cant buy a twin tub anymore.
I fill my machine with hot water immediately, no need to use a heater, I wash my whites, then as the water cools the coloreds and finally darks. My entire wash(4 loads ) is done in less than an hour and on the line. The spinner spins, originally at 2500 revs but is probably slower now.
I use a lot less electricity, water and time with a twin tub.
I wish Hotpoint or electrolux still made them.
Thanks for letting me let off steam
We bought a new washing machine this year cold fill only and all we can say about it its rubbish, example the tea towels still come out stained even on a 60 degree wash. Our old hotfill zanussi use to bring them up lovely and white and they came out of the washing machine warm unlike the cold fill ones when they are rinsed in cold water once again they are utter rubbish.Help where can we get a hot fill washing machine.
n bars: Whether hot & cold fill, or cold fill only, clothes should still come out cold. If they come out warm or hot they may be rinsing in hot water due to the hot & cold fill hoses or taps being connected wrongly. If this happens then laundry also often creases badly in the washing machine. This issue is mentioned in the following article – Laundry comes out of washing machine badly creased?
Hot & Cold fill washing machines only take in hot water right at the beginning of the wash and should still rinse in cold. Should the washing come out warm or cold?
Cold fill washing machines should actually wash better than hot & cold, especially if you use biological detergent. This is because it takes longer so they are washed for longer. Biological detergent also works best when started in cold and gently brought up to temperature. Hot water can even cause certain food based stains to set in.
The living enzymes inside biological detergent can only survive at low temperatures and 60 degrees can kill them off so it’s much better to wash it into the machine with cold – not hot. I would make sure the poor wash results aren’t caused by any of the points mentioned here – Laundry (washing) isn’t coming out clean (still dirty) or has marks on it (marks on clothes)
Even if you never use biological detergent wash results should if anything be better or no worse than a hot & cold fill machine. If this one is giving much poorer results it shouldn’t really be anything to do with the lack of a hot valve. I hope you can get to the bottom of it.
We use a combi bolier The wife runs the hot tap in the sink till it is hot,saving the water that is run off for the plants. I have installed a solenoid valve on the cold water run to the washer so my wife turns it on after the machine is full of hot water. If she has delicates in the wash she will turn on the soleniod valve to cool the water at odd times. The switch for the soleniod is next to the machine so easy to use. In this part of the world the cold water temperature comes in at about 43degs f in the winter months not much higher in the summer.The powers to be tell us that we must save energy, so I can’t see how these new machines help at all.
hi we have got my mums washer which is a LG Direct Drive 7.5kg 1600 spin Machine (WM-16336FD) it hot and cold but my current washing machine only plumb for COLD intake. Can i still use the Washer mum gave me just for Cold? will it still be ok to operate? Help it such a good machine .
You can email me direct as well with INFO
Hello Tammie: I won’t email you direct as then only you will know the answer ;-) The answer is here – Washing machine is a hot and cold fill, but I only have a cold water supply Hope it helps.
An interesting article / blog as I was thinking of switching our WM to hot fill (due to the availability of Solar heated water). The arguments against make a lot of sense, but:
Our W/M fill is from mains fed cold water – which is typically at about 10C (or sometimes colder in the middle of winter), where as even if not much really hot water gets in to the machine, even the tepid water is at something like 20-30C. So every fill is still saving some (expensive electric) energy heating water to 40 from say 25 instead of from 10C. This could be even better if we use the 30C wash.
(in addiition for us our gravity fed hot (and cold) water has been softened – which would be better for the W/M heating elements I would have thought as we live in a hard water area).
I should add that in order to prevent very hot water (over 50C in my book) entering the machine I would have thought that a Thermostatic mixing valve could be an option on the hot supply to the machine to limit temp to 40C. For those who do have Solar water these are often recommended anyway as the H/W tank can get very hot (over 60C).
I have a Bosch WFL2450 its about 6 years old ! It is one of the last hot and cold fill machines sold. I find that if i run the hot water tap antill the water comes out very hot put on a 40 60 or 90 degree wash use the quick wash program i can see the steam from the hot water entering my machine if i open the drawer.
The wash results cannot be beaten by any cold water fill machine i have ever come across. Also the quick wash is quicker than cold fill, by a long way under an hour for 60 degree. I dread the idea of changing to a cold fill. I have been doing washing for 30 years no one scientist or technicain wiil convince me on cold fill.
Thanks for your contribution Sue: I am puzzled however, by how many people are convinced that cold fill washing machines don’t wash as well as a hot and cold fill washing machine. They both wash in exactly the same temperature, the only difference being a cold fill washing machine takes a bit longer to wash but more time washing should mean better results. Less time washing should equate to poorer results.
One of the main arguments for changing to cold fill is that they claim it will wash more efficiently, particularly if using biological detergents. In these days of eco-labels and ratings for wash efficiencies if having a hot water valve gave better wash results I find it hard to believe that they wouldn’t have brought it back.
Manufacturers claim that heating the water up slowly but surely from cold gives a much better wash. If comparing an older hot and cold washing machine with a modern cold fill only washing machine and you find the new washing machine doesn’t wash as well it doesn’t prove the poorer wash results are caused by losing the hot valve. There could be many other causes including the detergent, or the fact that they use so much less water these days, particularly on rinses.
Reply : Cold fill with biological powder, will not be as successful at
removing any unnoticed marks as cold water tends to set in some stains. Time wise myself I much prefer not to wait 2 hours for a 60 degree wash to complete. I work for a well known electrical company in customer service dealing with calls about faulty appliances including washers. Older machines with hot and cold fill seem to have a lower rate of failure, higher customer satisfaction, and generally customers prefer them. If scientists maintain that using products with enzymes and bleaches on cold washes is the most efficient they have yet to convince me and most of the customers I speak to ! Pre-soaking is better in warm.
As I wrote a tidy while ago, washing at low temperatures does not kill all the parasites and pathogenic bacteria. Even the manufacturers reccommend an occasional high temperature wash to give the machine a thorough clean. How much better would it be to be able to use (free in my case) hot water to do that, rather than use expensive electricity?
It might not suit everyone to have hot and cold fill, but it would be good to have a choice. If manufacturers can give this choice to the Germans and others on Continental Europe, why can’t they give it to us?
Hello Sue: I’ve not heard of cold water setting in stains. Everything I’ve ever heard on the subject is that hot water is known to set in some stains and is another reason given for cold fill being better.
Older washing machines apparently having a lower rate of failure could be explained by a general lowering of quality in modern ones to keep prices down rather than the fact they no longer have a hot valve. However, if having a hot valve reduces the time taken on wash it could well have an effect as the longer they wash the more wear and tear will occur.
However, the manufacturers still claim that in most cases there is so little hot water getting into machines that it makes little difference. There is some truth in that but it doesn’t cover hot washes (particularly over 60 degrees) or cases where hot water is supplied quickly and at high pressure such as with combi systems.
Modern washing machines taking such a long time to wash is as much to do with achieving the A wash efficiency ratings. Even on 40 degree washes they often carry on washing for ages after reaching temperature, or keep turning the heater off and on to achieve the 40 degree temperature more slowly to allow the detergents to work. It’s also to do with modern detergents being designed to wash at low temperatures needing much longer to work. Finally it’s additionally to do with using less water which may add time to rinses. People wrongly assume modern washing machines take much longer simply because the hot valve has gone but it only plays a small part.
I agree that generally most customers prefer a hot valve, although most people probably can’t be bothered with pre soaking these days and are likely to claim they don’t have the time for it.
A question for washerhelp here: Obviously I’ve been pretty active on this board for a long while now, and readers who have looked back a long way will see many comments form me about my old Hoover Electron 1100 which sadly finally packed up last August and my new, **supposedly** hot and cold fill washer by LG which I have now.
Regarding the most recent posts here, about length of wash time, reaching the wash temp. gradually and how long teh wash temp is held for, I note the following: my new LG has a facility where when you press the temp selector button whilst the cycle is in progress the “Time Remaining” display changes to the “tub water temp” display. Doing this reveals that my LG stops the wash and drains the water at the precise second that the temp display changes to not the chosen wash temp, but exactly and unvaryingly 5 degrees below the chosen temp. Hence on a 60 degree wash, the second the display ticks over from 54 degs to 55 degs, the wash stops, the drain pump starts and the tub empties. The same applies to a 40 deg wash as soon as it reaches 35 degrees and a boil wash (95 degrees) as soon as it reaches 90.
This may be a small fault on this machine, but even if the temperature thresholds are set low in error, it suggests to me that far from holding the wash at the chosen temp for any length of time, this modern machine at least stops washing as soon as you get to the desired heat.
The washer doesn’t heat the water slowly either. The temp stays constant at whatever the starting temp is (in my case about 35 degrees since I have fixed a mixer valve to the cold inlet to ensure some of my solar heated water is used) for the first 20 minutes of the timer countdown, then the heater must kick in because the temp rises at a rate of around 2 degrees per minute, or slightly faster, until it hits the targets (as above). Thus, for example, on a boil wash, I get 20 minutes of washing in water at about 35 degrees followed by just over 5 minutes of washing in rapidly heating water, then a sudden drain.
Surprisingly this machine washes reasonably well, but nothing like as well as the Hoover did – rinsing is a different story though – but how on earth the manufacturers’ claims, as outlined by Washerhelp, can be believed is beyond me, since there is clearly little attempt to wash at the chosen temperature for more than a few seconds.
As for timing, I can’t speak for other machines, but the reason that this takes 2 hours plus to do a cycle is that every time it reaches a spin phase of the cycle it spends a bare minimum of 4 minutes, and often up to 20 minutes, trying to balance the load before the spin. During these prolonged, and generally unsuccessful, balancing sessions the clock stops, so, for example, when the final spin kicks in at 15 minutes remaining, some 25 minutes later the clock still shows 15 minutes to go.
The spin is very quiet indeed, but although it;s reasonably balanced, gthe difference form the old Hoover is not that it balances better, but that the machine has 4 adjustable feet to ensure that it’s in full contact with the floor at each corner and can’t rock about. Couple this with improved sound insulation, plastic suspension parts rather then steel, and the LG direct drive motor which eliminates the belt (and associated friction noise) and carbon brushes (and associated sparking noise) and the very impressive sound levels have sod all to do with the huge time wasting in load balancing. On top of all that, the 1400 spin, when it does finally get going, gets less water out of the washing than the 1100 on the Hoover, and that’s at least partly because the drain pump doesn’t run continuously during the spin but comes on and off as and when the machine detects water in the sump. THe upshot being that all through the spin you get alternate spells of water being pumped away and water being splashed all round the drum making the machine slow down under load.
Dead clever these Chinese (well, Korean) but I’m sorry to say taht old low tech solutions were far better.
I hasten to add that it isn’t just this machine or this brand; I know people with new Hotpoint (not known as the best for reliability) who say that their old Hotpoint was far better and I know people with Old Bosch who are determined to keep their washer going at all costs because they’ve experienced new Bosch and found them to be poor by comparison. I even know people with Miele who say that they are good, but not as good as Old Servis .
Manufacturers are falling over themselves to use less water, less power and less soap but completely failing to get the results that the “housewife” demands.
Ah well …. time for bed!
I was reminded of this only yesterday when I had a shower. There was enough sun that our cylinder was at nearly 60 degrees Centigrade but the thermostatic valve made sure that the temperature of the shower stayed at its set (and rather lower) temperature.
It would seem a remarkably simple thing to have a similar valve on a washing machine, controlled by the programmer, that would admit water at the desired temperature. This kind of valve starts by admitting hot water (which is obviously not very hot to start with) and then varying the mix to the make sure that the preset temparature is held.
In a shower, of course, the final control is the person standuing underneath it but in a washing machine it would need some kind of sensor that checked the temperature of the water in the drum and fed back the information to the valve which would then adjust itself tio suit.
Cheap and simple – and thus elegant.
Dave: Yes you have been big contributor and you are very welcome. You’re almost as verbose as me :-) I still have to go in and add a space between all your paragraphs on your long posts. A mass of text looks very daunting without the spaces in between.
I would like to suggest that maybe your LG is not washing as well as your old Hoover because you are artificially adding more hot water than the washing machine is designed for. Because you are adding extra hot water and this particular machine stops washing as soon as the temperature is reached you are forcing it to wash quicker than it is designed for. Different washing machines may have different methods. But on a 40° wash they don’t want the temperature to be 35° to start with if designed to stop washing as soon as the selected temperature is reached. Some washing machines used to not start heating the water for a good 10 minutes or so. Others may continue to wash for a while after reaching temperature. It appears that yours relies on controlling the initial wash temperature itself to a required temperature (mostly cold on a 40 degree wash) by adding mostly cold water – which is the thing you will discovered (to your disappointment) and try to circumvent with the mixer tap.
I don’t know whether your machine is faulty with regards to the temperature sensor or whether the temperature sensor is only updated every five minutes or so and therefore behind, but if your machine stops washing 5° before the proper temperature this will make matters even worse if you have accelerated the wash by adding more hot water in at the start.
Modern washing machines are supposed to wash much better than old washing machines. This is something I assume is correct because of all the extensive testing and wash efficiency ratings. Over the last several years or more there has been a big competition between manufacturers to produce washing machines that wash better than their competitors. It’s hard to imagine that modern washing machines therefore don’t wash as well as in the days when nobody bothered even thinking about it or rating them. However, I do believe that modern washing machines can’t rinse anywhere near as well because of their drastically reduced water consumption which is why I wrote Why can’t modern washing machines rinse properly?
With regards to the spin taking up to 20 minutes to balance the load, it’s either faulty, or you could be putting in laundry that it cannot balance. If it is a 7 kg drum and you are under loading it then it may be struggling to balance them. ( related How do I avoid out of balanced loads in my washing machine? ) If you feel you aren’t underloading or putting awkward loads in then it’s clearly rubbish at balancing loads and may be faulty – or just plain rubbish.
Your old Hoover (as with all other washing machines of that era) would spin anything regardless, this was convenient as no load would refuse to spin. The problem was when clothes got tangled or worse got badly out of balance the machine would go bananas and smash itself to be bits. This was a serious problem before out of balance sensors and software. Unfortunately some out of balance software is either too unsophisticated or just too sensitive.
its been interesting reading all the posts, but, unless I’ve missed it no one has touched on my problem.
We have a bosch washing machine about 4 yrs old with hot and cold fill. We are about to ‘upgrade’ and give our ‘old’ one to mother in law, good of us I know, but what the heck!
However, she only has a cold supply plumbed in. The question is, can I just blank off the hot inlet valve on the machine and simply connect cold only, or will this interfere with its programming. We never use the powder tray these days, as we use our balls, so to speak.
any suggestions?
You might have missed it Chris, it’s in there somewhere but this topic is split over two articles with at least 250 comments :-) Here’s the answer -
Washing machine is a hot and cold fill, but I only have a cold water supply
I have solar power particularly hot water.
I have tried a cold fill only washing machine’s and the electric used was 4 times more that the trail using hot and cold fill washing machine.
I believe that a study using solar power etc, producing free hot water etc should be taken into consideration.
As there are many varriables which have to be taken into account. Not just the washing machine makers nor some single minded person.
For some the cold fill would be cheaper and greener.
But on the other hand a hot and cold fill could be cheaper and greener depending on where your hot water comnes from.
There can be no hard and fast rule..
Wake up all out there….don’t be fooled
Wow, I can’t remember ever reading a longer comments section on an article. One would hope that washing machine manufacturers read this page, laugh like I did and then redesign their products around the features we are asking for.
I liked the water recycling idea, maybe a drum in a tub in a tub for storage and filtration could work.
Anyhoo, it sounds like quite a few people want a hot/cold fill machine (me included). I would also like to see a return to controls on a washing machine, three should do it, temp, water source select (cold only/hot and cold) and a timer (30 min, 60 min, 90 min should do it). K.I.S.S.
Oh, and maybe build the damn thing properly. If a washing machine was worth a thousand pounds I’d pay that, as far as I can tell a £500 machine today is so full of gimmicks and so poorly made it’s not worth half that. Give us engineering not useless flashing lights and dubious environmental claims.
Welcome danceswithferrets: You should see the other article on the exact same subject linked to in this article. It has 334 comments so far. I can’t imagine anyone having time to read them all – it’d take half a day.
I still have my twin tub. It does all the simple things danceswithferrets mentions but it does like my company. Then I have to be there to take out the washing anyway from my automatic, at some stage. So its all down to time management and selecting washing order if you are into water saving. Any observations on the 15 degree washing products that have arrived on the scene? My automatic dial does not go that low.
Leslie: Washing at 15 degrees is possibly different to washing at 30 degrees but you might be interested to see my article on washing at 30 degrees
I suspect most of my observations should be equally relevant to 15 degree washing but will need to look at 15 degree washing in a later article. The potential energy savings by dropping from washing at 40 degrees to 15 degrees will be different and could be more significant. However, their claim that dropping from 40 degrees to 30 degrees saves 40% energy didn’t impress me much as the article explains.
A step nearer perhaps?
Miele are now publishing a brochure withthe Oxon UK address on the back that advertises the AllWater machine and states (Page 39) that using on site hot water will save energy. Sadly it also has the caveat “not available in all countries”. At least we don’t have to download Swedish or Russian brochures any more to see this product. The brochure is available at http://www.miele.co.uk/Resources/RequestBrochure/Brochures/Laundry%20tips_03_2006.pdf (note it’s a dot-co-dot-uk URL so it’s even on their UK server!!!) and can also be picked up in John Lewis shops (where I found my copy).
Miele also sell a Commercial machine which is the AllWater with a few extras in terms of the control features which IS available in the UK ….for approx £2k.
Thanks for the link Dave. The wording is vague and doesn’t give even a hint as to what circumstances would be “appropriate” to use hot water.
The problem is that on the same page it says,
As today’s washing machines are all cold fill it comes across as saying that cold fill is more economical but, “where appropriate, using on site hot water supply can result in considerable savings in electricity and even water”.
So we still have the situation where Miele and the other manufacturers are saying cold fill is more economical and virtually all their washing machines have shunned hot water valves but Miele’s AllWater washing machine is claiming “where appropriate” to be much cheaper to run using hot water.
My best guess, which I’ve mentioned before, is that the AllWater is cheaper if doing a lot of hot washes and not if mostly doing 40 degree washes.
Hmmm…. well, it is all very vague I agree Andy, however I must say that I did not read the same contradictory vagueness into the Miele wording as you did.
I read the first statement that you quote above (post 122) in the same way as the Miele Dishwasher instructions which state that “connecting the dishwasher to a hot water supply will save energy and time”. Of course we all know and accept that dishwashers use hotter water than washing machines but we also know and accept that even old dishwashers use far less water than washing machines, so I too Miele’s statement to be a recognition that because more water is used, there would be savings even on cooler washes.
For the second quoted paragraph I think Miele is quite clear and I think they are saying that “modern machines are reasonably economical anyway” (which some of us might argue with but I think that’s what they are saying) and following it up with “they would be even more economical if we fill them wiyth hot water”.
The fact that we can both interpret the same words differently thoug does rather back up your point that they are vague.
I think the statement should only be read with washing machines in mind Dave as dishwashers are different to washing machines in this area in that they heat to much higher temperatures.
The claim is that most people use 40 degree washes for washing machines, but dishwashers commonly need 60, 75 degrees and even higher temperatures so they have a greater use for hot water and greater potential for saving electricity if the water is already hot.
It’s hard to see how taking in hot water for a 40 degree wash is going to make a significant difference because the wash temperature doesn’t even want to be anywhere near 40 degrees to start on a 40 degree wash due to them saying heating water slowly gives best results when using biological detergents. That’s why I tend to assume that the energy savings claims made for the AllWater would kick in if using hot washes.
Not much point in going round and round like the washing in the drum, however as we have discussed on here endlessly in the past washing machines, even modern ones that use just a “bowlful” of water, use far more water than a Dishwasher, ergo any savings to be made, even on a cooler wash, will be more significant in a washing machine because there is more water to heat up.
After all, if a 7kg load washer uses just over 4kW of power to heat the wash water to 40 deg C from a 15 degree start (a rise of 25), but a dishwasher taking in about half the volume of water but at about 60 degrees heats it to 75 using less than half a kW (a rise of 15), then there is a rough but fair guide to work from.
Non-the-less it’s patently obvious that the biggest savings will be on the hottest washes in both types of machine.
I understand your arguments both for and against a hot fill valve, but I cant help wondering why the manufactures don’t allow a hot fill run off (to simply pump out the “waste” cool water from pipe runs etc until the incoming water reaches the correct temprature) assuming that gas heated water from the hot water tank is allways cheaper than electric heated water this surely must have benifits?
Thanks for your contribution Andy. This has been discussed in the early days of the other topic on this subject I want a washing machine with a hot water valve last year but there are now so many comments on this and the other article it would take hours to read them all :-)
A washing machine would have to fill with hot water and keep it running until it detects hot water so it would need an thermostatically controlled valve. It would then need to pump out all the water drawn in so far which would be wasteful. If it didn’t want to waste the water it could try storing it and introducing it to the drum during the rinses but that would need a small storage tank somewhere and extra hoses and controls to use it.
It would also have to use sophisticated electronics and sensors to allow in a perfect combination of hot and cold. But washing machines don’t normally want to start at the right temperature, particularly when washing with biological detergents as they perform better when the temperature starts cold and gradually heats up.
So it can be done, it would just need a lot of additional parts and expense and at the moment the majority of people will find it more efficient to just heat the water from cold inside the machine.
I’ve said a few times though now that it would be nice if some manufacturer made a washing machine that was truly environmentally friendly by being able to be efficient in all the different environments a washing machine commonly works in.
Actually, it’s dead simple and needs no extra parts, controls, hoses or technology: The machine needs to have a hot valve and a cold valve. When a cool wash is selected it needs to fill through only the cold valve. When a warm wash is selected it needs to fill with both valves open at once. If a “deluxe” model is desired this could work as the “Alfa-mix” device, popular on the continent does, using a thermostat to switch the hot and cold on and off in turn to mix the water just right, but for 90% of the time and for 90% of users just allowing both valve to open at once would be fine. When a hot cycle is selected then only the hot valve should open.
This would mean that, barring the most inconceivable of coincidences, all cycles except the hottest (“boil wash”) ones would fill with water that was cool enough to use Bio detergents and none would fill with clap cold water wasting electricity to heat it and lengthening wash times to unacceptable levels.
Oddly enough this is also what Commercial washers do, ranging from “Speed Queen” industrial models in launderettes to Miele “little giants” with a 5Kg load capacity. If they did not then commercial and industrial laundry would be unacceptably expensive and slow.
Dead simple. No hassle. Cheap. Easy to do.
The only complications arise because manufacturers, and “geeks”, want to make out that it is complicated because to do otherwise is to admit that the system that was universally used by every automatic washer until around a decade ago actually cannot be improved upon. It has little (or maybe nothing) to do with the amount of water used by modern machines because, with the possible exception of the smallest machines that only hold around 5kg of washing, the volume of water used is as great or greater than in old machines; it’s just that because they hold more laundry they are entitled to claim a lower volume of water per Kg of load.
If anyone doubts that the matter is as simple as I am asserting then I recommend looking at the machines sold in USA, Australia, Germany and most of continental Europe ….. in essence they all operate exactly as I describe above and all use hot water. Ironic only because when we first started to lose hot valves in the UK we were fobbed off with the idea that we were old fashioned to have hot valves and that no where else did. It’s rather like the loblocks that we were told in the early days of combi boilers that they were standard in the EU and we were old fashioned to have cylinders…….and now we are the last country in the EU to be putting our hot water cylinders back (now calling them heat stores) in order to use Solar and ground source heat pump water heating …… which in mainland Europe was just becoming de-rigeur as we started to rip out our cylinders.
If there is one thing that we excel at in the UK it is being gullible enough to buy all the sales pitch thrown at us and ignore the real facts.
Your make a good point Dave regarding the increasingly common 7Kg and larger drums using more water, which negates some of the argument for cold fill only, which was originally that modern washing machines use so little water on wash it doesn’t have time to get true hot water inside before it’s finished filling. With large drum washing machines this may no longer be true and it was a key argument in favour of cold fill only washing machines.
This part of the argument, which I feature in my original article on Washerhelp was written when most washing machines were 5Kg drum washing machines.
Just found our 17-year old Whirlpool sitting in a pile of rust and a puddle of water: it still works fine, but looks like the casing of the machine is falling apart. It is, of course, H & C fill. So if we buy a new machine we are left with a redundant hot pipe, which fortunately has a separate stopcock on it. Should we remove the pipe or just leave it sealed off?
Hello Trish, I’ve been meaning to write an article on this subject for months, so prompted by your question here it is What should I do with the old hot water tap when connecting a cold fill washing machine?
Apologies if I have missed any comments on the subject but I’m looking at the fill options from a carbon perspective. I understand the arguments relating to the dynamics of operation to get hot water into a washing machine but taking a very simple approach and accepting the good work done by machine manufacturers to reduce the kWh used in creating good wash output but the emissions from using electricity are 2.5 – 3 times that of using say gas in a traditional arrangement. In 2011 the Renewable Heat Incentive will be with us to promote the use of renewable heat. One route for lower emission domestic properties is to use District Heat Networks. Such networks and their technologies have the potential to deliver hot and cold domesitc water at balanced mains pressure within the property, with the heat being generated from renewables like biomass and biofueled Combine Heat and Power. For the likes of the CHP the symbiotic relationship of having a heat sink in the properties would be beneficial – but having a cold fill only takes this away whilst retaining a higher CO2 emissions rate. The same argument holds true for dishwashers.
District Heat Networks are far more prevalent on the continent – is there any learning we can benefit from?
Perhaps the holistic approach would suggest a different journey – eg what is the nations consumption (and hence CO2 emissions) of electricty due to cold fill washing machines and dishwashers – what could the alternative route of retaining H&C fill bring to the Climate Change agenda by using renewable heat?
Robert – I don’t think you have missed the point at all: I think that there are several points that keep coming up in this board and the sister one, and they include the ineffective washing and rinsing of modern machines, some *part* of which seems to be down to cold fill, the stupidly long cycle times of cold fill machines, which seems to be all or virtually all down to cold fill, and the cost, both in ££ and also in terms of CO2 emissions of using cold fill only.
I think that the manufacturers and some readers of this bopard mistake cost for meaning £ and nothing but £, a few assume that if the cost in £ is good then the cost in CO2 must also be good but many understand that the two things are neither the same nor of equal importance.
I’m glad you’ve made your contribution as I feel that you have made the issue clearer than any of us have manage dto date. Hopefully more readers will grasp the point now.
Two interesting rays of hope for all those readers who like me seek a hot and cold fill machine:
1) Cole Brother’s (Sheffield’s branch of John Lewis) advised me on Saturday that they can get the Miele All Water to special order, stating that it is becoming quite popular. The gentleman who served me said that he could not guarantee that all branches of JLP will do this but he was unaware of any reason why they would not.
2) http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/buyersguide/washing-machine/ – scroll down to just below the picture of the Indesit Moon / just above the picture of the Hotpoint for a very interesting comment stating unequivocally that hot fill (they call it warm fill for some reason) is more efficient and better for the environment. The caveat is that they cost more to buy, which I’m afraid to me suggests that the few manufacturers making them now are trying to cash in on peoples’ desire to “be green”.
Another useful link (though dated September 2009 so a little out of date) regarding the allwater machines (there are 3 models curently listed by Miele – W2525WPS, Nototronic W355WPS and W3841WPS) – interesting figures quoted regarding the savings in CO2 and in ££
http://www.servecommunity.ie/download.ashx?f=Healthy__energy_efficient_renovations.pdf
Scroll down / navigate to slide 22.
I also read something very interesting earlier today on a web site about tumble dryers which indicated that there was no energy (or carbon) saving to be made (when tumble drying your washing) by having a washer that spins any faster than 1000 rpm. The assertion was that “various factors” made spin speeds of 1100 to 1600 rpm no more effective than spinning at 1000 and that only an 1800 spin speed offered any advantage. This is all new to me and not really relevant to the hot water argument but it does seem to suggest that machines which spend ages balancing so they can spin faster are not necessarily advantageous, so perhaps this is another aspect of so-called improvment which is not all that it seems to be?
Dave: I think whoever wrote the Dooyoo article has researched my articles as I wrote this in April 2008 Washing machine spin speed efficiency figures and drying costs
They even use my chart.
LOL!!!
What goes around comes around!!!
Explains why it says the AllWater is not available in UK yet John Lewis say it is!!!!
I’ve just invested in solar heating panels so I naturally looked around for a hot and cold fill washing machine. We are on a unvented water system (no open tanks) and we have a sink in the utility room where we can run off water until it is hot. Surely these would be ideal conditions for a hot fill machine? I accept there are environmental objections to running off water, but surely the energy argument is more telling?
Assuming you have a combination boiler then to make it makes sense to have a hot fill washing machine, but to make it efficent why can the machine not draw off hot water until it gets to the right temperature. The colder water can be pumped out of the drum at the bottom and replaced with the hot until it reaches temperature.
Wouldn’t this waste water, well yes – but if you do not have a water meter then it’s free anyhow and I’m sure a few gallons of water cost much less than the electricity to heater cold water by electricity anyhow…
It seems obvious to me, so why not?
Déjà vu! How many years is it now since I made this very point? About the same number of years that Meile et al have been ignoring it, I would imagine!
Peter / Trefor,
Using solar hot water and a cylinder to store it in is no less efficient than a combi boiler in terms if using hot water for the washing machine. IN fact, depending on the make and model of combi boiler, and the distance between the boiler or cylinder and the washer, it may very well be that a combi boiler is a LESS efficient option for filling you washer (and dishwasher).
Pumping out the cold water would be far cheaper than heating it by electricity, even if you are on a metered supply. This should only really be a worry to you if you live in an area where water is especially scarce or during drought weather. (Mind you; how many of us would run hot water down the plug hole until it runs properly hot and then put the plug in to fill the bath and basin / sink? Probably most readers and they don’t whittle about that waste so why worry about the washer?)
However, the simplest solution of all would be to fill washers up exactly as we always used to do: hot water only for cycles over 60 degrees, hot and cold together for slightly cooler washes and cold only for cold, pre-wash, bio-cycles and delicates. The only problem with this is the use of Bio detergents and to get round that washers need as simple switch, like many dishwashers have for selecting the “tab type” only on the washer it would be to select “bio” or “Non bio” detergent. When “Bio” is selected the machine would either fill with hot and cold mixed or cold only regardless of the wash temp. I am increasingly of the opinion that the ONLY real reason for cold fill appliances is to keep the Bio detergent makers happy: Which? and a number of washer manufacturers trading in mainland Europe state quite openly that hot fill is cheaper to run and more environmentally friendly, so it’s hard to see what else the reason could be?
Washerhelp has explained many times that the volume of water used these days makes hot fill ineffective in the “average” installation but I have to say that I have a wealth of evidence to suggest that this is not the case.
A washer would have to be using the smallest amount of water possible for a “half load”, even on a modern machine, and also be connected by a substantial pipe run, for the argument that the hot water doesn’t get there until the machine has finished filling to be true.
Many of today’s washers use as much or more water for washing as old machines did – but by having a larger drum capacity it looks less and can be quoted as “litres per KG of load” as a lower amount.
The fact remains that the actual quantity of water used is as great as ever.
Look at the quoted consumption figures for the latest Miele, Bosch and LG machines and compare with the consumption in Hoover and Hotpoint and Bosch of 12+ years ago …. you’ll find that even on the wash phase of the cycle today’s machines use more water; but they can mostly wash more laundry ~(Miele being the near-exception as their machines have quite small capacities by today’s trends).
Anonymous:
I’ve made this point myself many times during these comments. My original articles were written in 2007 and this article has been a live one ever since. In 2007 the average washing machine was still only 5.5Kg but now we have many 7kg, 8kg and even larger drum capacities which use more water. This definitely makes the argument of hardly any hot water getting into the machines less important.
However, it doesn’t alter the argument that lots of hot water is drawn into the pipework only to cool down and be wasted in homes using a hot water cylinder upstairs.
I have said several times recently that washing machines should definitely now have a hot water valve and be sophisticated enough to utilise it efficiently depending on the environment its placed in, the type of detergent the customer is using (biological or non-biological) and the water supply available to it.
Quote, “…Using solar hot water and a cylinder to store it in is no less efficient than a combi boiler in terms if using hot water for the washing machine…”
It’s difficult to talk about the efficiency of solar hot water systems since there is no measurement of the amount of sun that is received and what percentage of that is used to heat water. But since the sunlight is free and the only cost of running the system is that of the pumps (a few watts only when they’re running – which is only for a few minutes and only when there’s a need to circulate the heat exchange fluid). Of course, there is a fixed cost apportionment, which I had estimated would take about 8 years to amortise – but that period reduces as the cost of imported power increases. Assuming that the system lasts 25 years, the cost of amortisation it would be about £300 per annum – and the system takes care of about 70% of my non-applicance hot water needs. If it also took care of my dishwasher and washing machine needs, then the saving would be far greater.
Next June I am having solar-voltaic panels installed which will take about 8 years to pay for themselves (a return in capital of abiut 8%) and that will alter the equations, since their output would be sufficent to run the heater in the washer or dishwasher (but not both simultaneaously). Thus the need for a hot-fill machine will become less – although I would still get one if one were available since that would increase the surplus electricity I shall be selling back to the Grid.
Regarding Richard’s comments in post 143 above:
Efficiency of Solar Water HEating systems seem sto be advertised as very greatly varying amounts – I have seen figures between 98% and 65% stated – and I assume (but have not verified) that all refer to the amount of heat that the sun creates within the collector which is actually transferred to the coil in the cylinder.
The cost of solar installations is also a subject of hot debate (pardon the intentional pun): my solar water heating system cost me well under £1,500, including delivery and installation. It has 30 evacuated glass tubes in the collector and the price included a brand new, 180 litre, dual coil factory lagged cylinder. The cylinder was also moved from the airing cupboard (where the new one would not fit) to a location immediately adjacent to the gas boiler, so there was a lot of pipe work involved.
Shortly after I’d had it fitted I got a call from a (clearly short sighted!) sales rep from a well known double glazing company (who used to advertise with a helicopter and feather) who wanted to know if I’d be interested in their solar water heating. Being slightly impish by nature I invited the man in, made him a cup of tea and let him extol the benefits of flat plate collectors, and tell me how they would make a cylinder to fit the airing cupboard rather than move the cylinder to suit a stock size. He then quoted me a figure of just over £8,000 for such an installation. At that point I put him out if his misery, took him back out of the front door, pointed to the roof and said “thank you for your time, but that, with a 180 litre cylinder, in a new location, only cost me £1,450″ The point I’m making is that solar water heating does, as Richard state, have an initial outlay cost, but this is very variable depending on which company you buy from and so if my washer would use hot water properly the pay back time for my installation would reduce considerably from the current estimate of 4 years
There are also other factors: I have a pumped shower using the hot water in the cylinder – some people have only electric showers; I have a dishwasher plumbed into the hot water cylinder – some people have not realised that this can be done with most dishwashers or have a model which advises against this; My washer is supposed to use hot water and I force it to use some by piping it in through the soap drawer – most people have washers which use only cold water; my solar panels are on a south facing roof getting full sun all day – some people have to have solar panels on other roof elevations which won’t generate quite as much heat.
The list could be extended further.
The point (which is relevant to this board) is that in many households the washing machine is a considerable consumer of paid for fuel (electricity) and if you have any other form of water heating, best of all solar, this is expense and fossil fuel use that you could well do without.
Sorry – I’ve gone on a lot making points that have been said before and which have wandered off the hot water valve issue a bit.
I have to say that my installation cost very much more than £1,500 and, although I didn’t pay the £8,000 here cited, that is certainly closer to the average price of most installations. It shows that you need to ask around – which I did but, of the three firms I approached, only one bothered to get in touch with me. As it happens, as I have no roof that faces directly south, I have two panels disposed at 90 degrees one to the other, one facing roughly southeast and the other roughly westsouthwest, so I get input most of the day.
I did get two quotations for the solar-voltaic panels and they were very similar.
Although a little off topic now:
We have an up to date condensing combi boiler and use it for three showers a day. The total hot water cost is around £5/month (as is seen on our summer gas bill when the heating is not running).
So even at £1500 for a solar system the payback if it generated 100% of our hot water all year around would be 25 years, and this is optimistic!
It’s pretty much shown that solar systems for DHW do not every pay back. Now if you had a boiler that used a heat exchanger from the solar tank for the heating it might be better.
Like the previous few comments I too have roof to spare but wonder about the merits of the embodied and operational energy that needs to be expended to create and maintanin the individual low carbon solar thermal heating facility? I wonder what the Whole Life Carbon calculation looks like?
Many households do not have the roof to spare and for those living in apartment world still have the issue of electrically heated whitegoods. The argument still holds for heat centrally generated through renewable sources to be distributed and used to replace the (too) easy electrically serviced units. Comment #132 refers.
Where sustainable practical alternative forms of heat exist then all efforts ought to be made to remove unnecessary uses of electricity – to do so in white goods is not that difficult – it requires will and perhaps the changing of standards / directives.
Good point well made Robert (post 148 above): it’s a matter of WILL(power) and given that this is usually so hard to come by changing standards / directives / legislation is almost certainly also required.
The trouble is that, just like a million-and-one other things in today’s world, the people who have the most power (governments) are made up of mostly individuals who don’t really understand the practicalities of the issue and can easily be “blinded by science” by other “bodies” (e.g. manufacturers) who want to manipulate legislation / directives and so on for their own means (almost guaranteed to be profit). The remaining minority of “government” (law making establishments) members, who do understand the practicalities, are so small in number that they don’t command the requisite power to make changes.
This is, after all, how we ended up with schemes like “laptops for teachers” where only the most expensive machines from the most disreputable suppliers were eligible for the scheme, so that when you had claimed back your grant the balance that you paid from your own money was still about twice the price of a decent laptop from a reputable supplier. (Spot the similarity with the Boiler Scrappage Scheme!). It’s also how we ended up with Government IT schemes like the Air Traffic Control and NHS systems which have been billions of pounds over budget and ended up unfit for purpose. Sadly legislation to make us “greener” suffers form the same problems and I think that’s how we end up in the position we are in with Washers and hot water use.
I would like warm water for the rinse cycles i.e. ~35°C. In this case, having a hot water valve is essential. Rinsing the detergent out of clothes appears to work better when using warm water compared to cold, especially in the winter when the incoming mains water supply is much colder.
Warm rinsing is explained on the page about modern washing machines being incapable of rinsing properly:
http://www.whitegoodshelp.co.uk/wordpress/why-cant-modern-washing-machines-rinse-properly/
We have a very efficient solar water heating system, now we have to buy a cold water feed washing machine all that hot water will go to waste since showering and washing up doesn’t use much. Shouldn’t we have the choice? We didn’t know this would happen when we bought the solar system.
@pat march You could consider using a “thermostatic mixing valve” to mix the hot and cold water to a lower temperature and plumb the washing machine into it? I’m thinking of getting one myself, but keep putting off having it installed as I have a small kitchen and access to the washing machine’s installation is tricky.
I’m not a washing machine engineer, but I’m sure it would be perfectly OK to have warm water i.e. maximum ~35°C flowing into a cold water inlet valve of the washing machine (someone please confirm if that is correct or not)? Consider also that silks and delicate fabrics don’t like warmer water than 30 – 35°C.
Yes WMUser, that would be fine, so long as it is not hotter than 35oC.
Oliver.
I have just read through ALL the blog above but concentrating on hot and cold fill washing machines. You’ve guessed it; my current machine a 10 year old Zanussi has developed a fault. I am hoping it can be repaired but I have been trying to research hot and cold fill machines because we have solar water heating. I found your excellent site and continue to be confused! No-one makes the point that while the tank takes in cold water when the hot fill is being used, that cold water is then heated by the solar system which at this time of year is more than plentiful! The boiler hardly ever comes on to heat the water.
Our system cost £3000 three years ago for two collectors – one on the east and one on the west so they get sun all day – plus a large tank in the airing cupboard (which airs all our washing). I use a hot fill for cotton sheets and a slightly cooler one for all the towels precisely for the reason stated by Richard that any parasites (unseen by us) will be exterminated. I use a cool wash for all the delicates and never, ever, use biological powder having tried it once and had itchy skin for ages afterwards.
I don’t see any problem in running the hot tap before a fill to make sure the machine takes hot straight away. I use that water for washing vegetables or watering the garden.
We have under two oil fills a year whereas we had just under three before and at £600 rising a fill that is some consideration. We had the money available earning very little interest (and would be earning even less now) so it seemed to us a sensible decision and we have not regretted it.
As I say, I am hoping my machine can be repaired until manufacturers have come to their senses and go back to hot and cold filling. Bring back the old Keymatic – a wonderful machine that did all that was asked of it. No doubt it is inefficient these days but we all know that technology has moved on (we hope). I am now going to read “I want a machine with a hw valve”.
A question about hot and cold water inlet valves. Is a hot water inlet valve just another water valve that’s identical to the cold one or is it different? Could you damage a cold water inlet valve if you attach it to the hot water supply above a certain temperature?
If it’s perfectly OK to supply hot water to a cold water inlet valve, there are 2 downsides I can think of immediately: 1) you can’t wash delicates like silk unless the water temperature is maximum 30 – 35C. 2) The clothes will come out very creased as they won’t “cool down” during the rinsing cycles, which would normally be done in cold water (however, I believe warm water rinses better than cold). I’m sure there are more downsides to having hot water only, but if you have your water heated by solar panels then I can understand people wanting to make the most of this free hot water.
If enough people demand hot water inlet valves because of increasing use of solar heating, then I’m sure the washing machine manufacturers will listen and make them available once again, maybe in certain models only – like the more expensive ones? Please start writing to the washing machine manufacturers AND “Which?”. Maybe sometime in the near future the hot water valve will return?
Regarding the valves:
Hot and cold valves are IDENTICAL in every way on all Hotpoint, Bosch, Hoover and Miele machines (or so I am assured both by my own inspections of several of each and by my local authorised dealers for all but the Miele). Further, if you buy replacement valves (they are universal and you can be pretty confident that any washer will have the identical valves to any other brand) they are sold as a universal hot / cold valve.
Pressure or Flow restrictors are only fitted if the incoming water pressure exceeds 10 Bar (in which case you also need different steel-braided hoses to withstand the pressure) – UK domestic mains are usually around 1 to 1.5 bar.
A pressure or flow restrictor consists of a rubber washer-like fitment on a plastic (or in very very old cases metal) frame or ring. It is fitted by pushing it into the valve fro the hose union side with a pair of long nosed pliers and removed in the same way. In most machines there will be a steel or plastic “sieve” fitted on top of any restrictor – and this should be fitted when no restrictor is present too as it is to filter out any particles of grit or metal in the water – these would otherwise lodge in the valve causing it to weep water constantly into the machine even when unplugged.
There is no problem whatever with connecting a hot supply to a cold water valve from this side of things.
Regarding mixer-valves (TMV3 valves) on the supply to a cold fill only machine:
There have been a number of discussions on this in posts further up the board, going back up to 2 years. It is easy to fit such a valve and they can be purchased in both fixed and adjustable output models. The cheapest are fixed output and can be bought from the likes of Screwfix for well under £30. Alternatively you can buy the German “AlfaMix” automatic electronically / thermostatically controlled mixer valve on which you can set the precise temperature for the wash programme that you are running. These are highly recommended in Germany and are specifically designed to allow hot fill into the wash cycle only and then revert to cold only for rinsing. They also have a setting that facilitates a cold fill for a bio prewash, then a hot fill for the main wash, then cold again for rinsing. The can be found from a number of online suppliers by Googling “AlfaMix” or “solarshop.de”.
Regarding lobbying suppliers:
Richard and I have done quite a lot of this with limited success to date. We keep trying! If more people would join in and also share the responses that they get on here and other suitable fora we might make a greater impression?
Regarding the Statesman machines:
I have had lengthy exchanges with two of their technical staff and they advise that their machine will use hot water only on washes that wash at 60 degrees or higher. They have listened patiently to my detailed descriptions of how little my LG uses and have indicated that they are confident that their machines will use more hot water but almost certainly will NOT use as much as older machines such as the Hoover Electron 1100 that I used to have, Bosch’s of around 12 years in age and Hotpoint models up to 4 or 5 years ago. Crucially and very disappointingly they have been unable to expressly confirm that their machines “cold” cycles, which state in the instruction book wash as “incoming tap water temperature” will take in HOT water – clearly if the Statesman machine does do this then it will be superb for anyone with Solar or other cheaply heated hot water in the cylinder. The technical staff seemed to manage to misunderstand this question every time I asked it and gave very non-committal answers.
Lastly, regarding the downside of connecting hot water to a cold fill machine, unless via the AlfaMix:
Read Washerhelp’s article (there is a link in post 155 above). There are many important and good points in that. In a nutshell though, rinsing with hot water will release far more soap much faster than cold, which can be seen as a plus point, and indeed a large number of Miele and LG machines have cycles which heat up the final rinse for exactly this reason, but unless you have HUGE amounts of solar-heated hot water using hot for every rinse on every cycle you run is likely to end up costing you more than heating just the wash water in the machine.
A cold water valve would normally have a flow restrictor built into it to prevent problems if connected to a water supply with high pressure, which normally a hot valve doesn’t. I’m not sure if there are any differences with a hot valve regarding temperature resistance.
If you try to connect a hot supply to a cold water valve it may not have enough operating water pressure if it’s a gravity-fed hot supply or has a low water pressure (which many hot water supplies do)
I have a relevant article here regarding hot supplies and cold fill washers – Don’t connect the hot water supply to the cold valve on a cold-fill washing machine
Dave (Quote)
A cold valve’s flow restrictors are usually fitted behind the filter and consist of s small plastic piece with a rubber seal in front of it. Some (like Hotpoint) have the flow restrictor built into the stem of the valve instead where the hose attaches inside to take the water to the soap dispenser. Only cold valves have restrictors as far as I’m aware. It’s possible some manufacturers have restrictors built into the soap dispenser where the hose pushes onto instead.
Traditionally cold water supply has been at mains water pressure and hot water supply at gravity pressure so one of the jobs of the restrictor was to reduce the cold water pressure in the soap dispenser to prevent leaking water out of the front which was a common problem at one time and to make it more equal with the hot water.
These days of course almost all washers just have the cold supply but without a flow restrictor many people’s water pressure is still high enough to cause leaks from the front of the dispenser drawer on (badly designed) dispensers so flow restrictors are still necessary or a high quality dispenser design to cope with the flow.
It will be a bit of a culture shock when I finally part with my Philips machine (1984 ). The hot fill is selectable so is ideal for filling on a machine cleaning cycle. When washing you may select an initial fill with the hot supply, this takes about a minute ( front glass just warm to touch ) then turn down for the second stage fill with cold. Soap dispenser and pipework are spotless because of the hot fill function.
Hi all,
Just an update for the “regulars” and followers: I had a telephone conversation with Miele since they have failed to reply to my last 3 e-mails via their support web site (they say my messages did not arrive).
I spoke to two ladies, one called Amy and one who’s name I forgot to note down, who were very polite, helpful and willing to spend time investigating but the bottom line was that both insisted that the leaflets showing the AllWater machine, which I had picked up in branches of John Lewis and Currys, were not supposed to have been distributed in the UK.
When I asked the second lady why the machine was not imported she advised that it was because Miele have never used hot fill as this can ruin delicate fabrics. When I pointed out that Miele in other countries clearly do use hot fill, now, she replied that she did not understand this and could not comment on non-uk products, which I suppose is a fair enough, if frustrating, response form a UK customer service center.
She did actually want me to call her back with the publication serial numbers from the leaflets but I must say I have not done so as I thought that since it was my ‘phone bill and it was clear I wasn’t going to get the product I wanted from them then perhaps the local reps should do the research into this apparent error, rather than a wanna-be but can’t be customer.
The only thought I have left regarding Miele products is to write direct to their CEO in Germany and see if they can offer any suggestions as to why this model is made and sold worldwide excluding UK.
Dave
Well done Dave. :)
Maybe Miele could be persuaded to include warm rinsing too?
Solar hot water is more popular in the UK now and will probably become very popular in the near future with all these environmental issues and CO2 targets we constantly get reminded about.
One of the most frustrating things about writing – be it email or snailmail – is that it is all too easy to ignore written communications. Many firms – and recently I can cite Amtrak, Greyhound and Air Canada in addition to washing machine firms such as Miele and Electrolux – simply ignore written communications.
Telephoning them does mean they have to speak to you – but the device that the likes of Air Canada use is to keep you hanging on to a premium rate number whilst they “go to find out for you”. I suspect they just simply put callers on hold and wait for them to give up.
The one organisation that I have found always to respond to letters was the oft-denigrated British Rail. Now its successors, the private Train Operating Companies, seem to have adopted the old BR habits and usually respond positively, rapidly and helpfully to letters. It’s a shame they don’t make washing machines…
Ho hum ………
Not sure what readers will think but I used not to believe in “coincidences” until now!
My LG WM1444TDS (much written on here about it since August 2008) worked OK, but not using teh hot fill in any meaningful way, form Aug 2008 until Aug 2009, when it blew up in spectacular style, all fireworks and pop fizzle crackle, blowing the plug fuse (13A), circuit fuse (15A) and, because that is a sub-circuit in the workshop, the house distribution board fuse (30A) which serves the whole workshop. Older readers will probably recall that it took 3 attempts to get LG to log the service call (under warranty too) because having blown up so decisively it was totally dead ergo no error code displayed which, it seemed, meant that LG could not log a fault as they had no facility to record “dead as a do-do”. After that they sent some engineers who ordered parts, but for a month LG kept telling the engineers that they had ordered the wrong part code, but also refusing to tell the engineers what code they should use (or so the engineers told me). Eventually I contacted the retailer I bought it from and, hey presto, within 24 hours the parts had arrived with the engineers and less than 12 hours after that the repair was completed.
Guess what …. today I was quietly sitting in the garden with a cup of tea when I heard a loud bang from the workshop and the fountain stopped. I knew instinctively that this was the same problem and sure enough, dead washer with load of towels in hot soapy water, and plug fuse, circuit fuse and dist. board fuse all blown. Unplugged washer, repaired fuses, all else fine again.
Oddly, when I tried to call LG, no fault code, no report possible!
So, I called the retailer (as the washer has a 2 year parts and labour guarantee and a 10 year parts warranty) and they looked up last year’s complaint and have agreed to contact LG on Monday.
I’ve said I don’t want a repair though: I want it taken away for free and either a substantial discount off a different brand washer or else I’ll buy a second hand older machine from a reconditioned washer shop instead. The retailer was quite sympathetic to this, but wouldn’t give a yes or not to my proposal until they’ve spoken to LG.
Moral of the story: a) don’t buy LG and b), as Washerhelp has posted more than 2 years ago, don’t buy a machine that comes from a brand you would not normally buy just because it’s hot fill.
Depending on the retailer’s final response I’ll either buy a Statesman hot and cold fill or I’ll be getting an ancient 2nd hand Hoover or Bosch.
(I’m also involving Which?’s legal advice team)
I have just contacted ‘Surf’ 0800 444 200 and they say “It makes no difference to the wash if the water is heated up from cold or you fill the machine with hot water (from you solar heated water or wood, etc. ).
So in the new washing machine we are going to buy with being forced to have ‘cold fill’ only I will rig some valve and control system to use our free hot water supply.
The point missing from most of this is that intelligence built in to a washing machine costs little in mass production and could save significant environmental costs if intelligence were combined with hot fill. The points about biological detergent and low temp needs are valid but you can get 30 deg water by mixing 50 deg water from the hot tap with 10 deg water from the cold. An intelligent machine would mix water to the required temp, send the mixed water through the detergent container. It could even learn the normal hot water temp and the volume of dead water before it runs hot. For a wash hotter than the hot water temp it could waste the dead water and fill only from hot.
I use a 30 year old Phillips W098 which has hot fill. I run off the dead cold water before filling it with 50 deg hot water. I am its intelligence.
I have just returned from Canada where the machines of choice are Maytags – which have hot and cold fill. This is really ironic since few Canadians have solar water heating, not least because electricity is relatively cheap there.
So a country that doesn’t need dual fill has it and a country that really wants it , can’t get it.
Ironic indeed – and as Richard and others have probably read on here before, or know for themselves, it’s not Just Canada – virtually every country inthe world has Hot and Cold fill machines, made in many cases by teh same manufacturers as ones that we ahve, but we can’t have them.
I think I’ve probably said in other posts that in my mind the greatest irony ofthe lot is that we have been told (IMO lied to) for the last decade or sp that we were the only country in Europe that still had any machines with hot inlets but now in GErmany it is mandatory to have a hot supply for your washer and as far as I know ALL new machines there have hot inlets.
To mis-quote Donald Hewlett (when he played Lord Meldrum in “You Rang M’Lord”) – ‘The world has gone mad, I am going to ignore it”
If we could be sure which manufacturers actually make dual-fill machines but don’t supply them to Britain, then we could write to the CEO of the company – thus bypassing the customer relations departments whose sole function seems to be that of getting the customer off their company’s back.
Well, for two there are Miele (their AllWater range is available in Germany, Spain, Russia and Australia to my certain knowledge, and has even appeared in a brochure that I picked up in Curry’s here, but when I rang they were only interested in trying to persuade me to send them a photocopy of the brochure so that they could “take the matter up with Curry’s”, and didn’t want to discuss the item at all) and there’s also Electrolux / Rex which another contributor on here has mentioned a lot.
Then there is LG who claim to make some hot and cold fill machines, but I have bitter experience, and I have found I am not alone, of their machines not using hot water even though they say they do and also being highly unreliable and excessively expensive to run, so I would never touch LG again and I can’t recommend them to anyone else.
Good luck to anyone who tries Miele: I wish I could say that they had been helpful when I spoke to them but I’m afraid I can’t.
Right. So we need to check out the address of Miele’s and Electrolux’s CEOs.
Why is it so hard to get companies to behave in a sensible manner?
Hello, I am needing an apartment washer and the super tells me that they I cannot install one because of ongoing hot water issues throughout the rest of the building. This does not sound plausible to me because then this issue would be had in every building where there is a washer in a unit plus we do have laundry facilities already but I cannot use them without difficulty. I know folks who have them and say they do not effect the rest of plumbing issues at all. The super says they have had engineers looking at the scalding hot water issues in showers issue since June and still cannot resolve it so the washers are getting blamed for it for now.What do you advise and recommend?
Hi,
I am a Head of Mechanical and Electrical services for a large housebuilder. I have been considering the issues you have covered here. They are raised by the UK Low Carbon Agenda that the Government has set. What made me consider this issue was, particularly, the programme to investigate and trial smart appliances and the smart electricity grid. In 2016 all new dwellings that we build will need to be LZC (Low and Zero Carbon) Any option that removes use of electricty at appliances and can be accounted for will be the primary way to reduce carbon emissions the last few points to get near to Zero Carbon emissions. (Also the cheapest method for Developers- and as pointed out previously electricity is carbon emission dirty) A previous post also pointed out that District heating provides hot water from a central source and that is important because in the summer losses are often the larger proportion of energy centrally generated by gas or renewables in these systems (The distribution system losses are more than the useful heat delivered as hot water to the dwellings) No point in sticking with electric heaters in appliances as the Grid will not be lower carbon until first, we have replaced the failing nuclear power stations with new and secondly added a higher proportion of nuclear or renewables to the electricity grid mix.
Best regards,
Steve
On sunny days both my hot water and my electricity are free – but I would still sooner have a hot/cold fill machine since my surplus electricity gets exported to the grid – and so the less I use the better.
Ref posts 132 & Steves 171
100% bioliquid fuelled CHP with district heat and private wire offers substantial carbon savings even taking into account the potentail standing losses on the heating circuit. Make the white goods that need heat available to the district heat and the % of standing losses reduces. If reducing carbon is the central feature of the argument then the whole life cost and carbon benefit will support central CHP without the need for additional dwelling renewable bolts ons. To support this stance all heat demands in the dwelling need to be wet heat – washing machines, tumble driers, dishwashers & HWS. However, this is recognised as not being a one size fits all and for the smaller communities and isolated low density locations other technical solutions will need to be considered – but we will have to get radical.
Richard: Are you saying that you get paid more for exporting 1Kw of electricity to the national grid than it would cost you to use 1Kw?
I’m not quite sure of the point you are asking. I get a feed-in tariff payment of just over £0.40 for every unit I generate and an additional £0.05 for ever unit I export to the grid (although at present this is estimated pending the introduction fo an export/import meter). Any electricity I generate and use is free to me.
What this means in practice is that, on sunny days, I pay nothing for my electricity and any that’s left after my own consumption goes back to the grid – and I get paid for that. So the less I use the more I get for the “spare” units.
Re post 174 – as per much publicity in the national and international arena, excess energy that you export to grid does indeed earn more for you than you pay for using it. Otherwise surely there would be no incentive for anyone to have microgeneration?
Is this perhaps where the fundamental inability to understand why most users of this board are so angry comes from?
Many of us are generating heat and / or electricity which these stupid machines designed by people who think we are idiots (perhaps the designers are the real idiots?) force us to at best gain no advantage from and at worst, like Richard, throw away resources that we want to use but are being prevented from doing.
Hi Dave: I wouldn’t have expected people would need such an incentive as the sole reason for installing solar panels is surely to generate free electricity for the house. Even if extra electricity generated was wasted it shouldn’t interfere with the original idea of them which was never to generate extra electricity to sell on.
Even if people received a token amount for surplus electricity they should be happy. I’m surprised they get so much but I’m pretty sure it’s a temporary inducement. At the end of the day the energy companies aren’t charging anywhere near 40 odd pence per unit so how can you get paid that amount for something they sell for less?
Having said that if every house on the planet had them think how much less energy we’d have to produce via other means.
The feed-in tariff scheme is a Gocvernment incentive gives those who install solar-voltaic panels a payment (presently just over 40p) for every unit their systems generate – regardless of what happens to the electricity – plus a small additional payment for electricity that is exported to the grid. The feed in tariff scheme is equivalent to a subsidy and is intended to persuade people to make the significant investment in such systems. It is a good incentive since the larger and nore efficient the system, the more poswr it generates and the more money users get paid.
As with every Government scheme, its continuation and level are subject to the Government’s whim – but they have promised that the tariff will continue for the next 25 years at least.
The scheme does mean that those of us with solar-voltaic installations are actually making a good profit – but then we do have to put up our own cash – around £20,000 in my case – to buy the systems and it is surely only fair that we should make money from our investments.
In fact, although the best return comes from putting up your own cash, those who do not have the capital and are unwilling or unable to borrow it, can now find deals whereby the solar-voltaic companies themselves will provide the installation free of charge and take the feed in tariff profit themselves – which will surely increase the take up of installations – a very good thing all round, I reckon.
We are at risk of veering seriously off topic here, and I am amongst the most guilty of us if we do so, but I have to confess that I am amazed at Washerhelp’s response in both post 174 and more recently 177.
Why on earth should the householder be “happy to get a token amount” in return for an investment which, regardless of the financial cost, is making a significant move towards the government’s and EU’s carbon emissions targets and towards saving the planet????
However, more significantly, why should insult be added to injury by the advocation of accepting waste of energy generated by our investment whilst at the same time being forced to PAY for MORE energy by the ridiculous appliances that are foist upon us????
At least I agree entirely with Washerhelp’s last comment: “Having said that if every house on the planet had them think how much less energy we’d have to produce via other means.”
It is time for Governments, Manufacturers, Retailers, Appliance Repairers (!!) and yes, the mass of the general public, to start being HONEST for once and supplying what we actually need and not what makes a tiny number of “fat cats” a few million extra at the expense of the householder.
Sorry, Rant over, but honestly, fancy expecting us to be grateful for an insult!
Hello Dave: I don’t understand your reaction at all. Are you saying you installed the solar panels in order to make money by selling excess electricity to the energy companies, or would you concede the idea never crossed your mind as it’s only just come out, and when you installed your panels it was only to generate your own electricity or hot water and hopefully save money in the long run and help in the “green” campaign?
Of course you should be grateful if you can now sell on any extra energy because that wasn’t part of the deal – it’s a bonus. My comment simply meant it’s an unexpected bonus and even if you only got 10p a unit you’d have been pleased.
This is clearly being subsidised as they are paying more than the resale value. The government doesn’t care if you are better off or worse off, all it cares about is persuading as many people as possible to get them fitted to offset the UK’s carbon emissions.
It’s the same as how they are trying to persuade as many people as possible to dump perfectly working appliances to “save money” yet when you look into it you will never get that money back as I describe here – Do we really need to dump our old inefficient appliances to save money and the world? – All they want to do is reduce the UK’s emissions – not save us money, and if it costs us money to “invest” in a new appliance or solar panels that we either never get back or takes decades they will still have reduced the carbon emissions which is their prime motive for such schemes.
There are many thousands of people being scammed by these solar panels and many thousands who have spent money they might never get back as unless you are in an ideal spot they just won’t generate enough energy to repay the investment.
Solar panel sellers slammed in Which? probe10 out of 14 solar water heating firms misled us
Hello Richard. When you say “surely it’s fair that we make money from our investments” I would say it’s nice, but not a right. We don’t make money out of the overwhelming majority of our “investments” so why should this be different? (other than it happens to be something the government wants to encourage to keep down the UKs carbon footprint under big pressure from the EU). I can’t think of any other product that we invest money in to make our lives easier or to save money where we make a profit other than hopefully in the expected savings.
We don’t make profit out of investing in central heating, double glazing, cavity wall insulation, more economical appliances etc. etc.
All – a new press release from DECC today
New DECC Consultation: the role of appliances and consumer electronics in CERT
This may be another vehicle to have the issue aired at Government level.
Before the Government feed-in tariff scheme, solar panel users were able to sell their surplus electricity back to the power companies and thus make a return on their investments in the installation. They can still do this if they wish as could any other generator of electricity. However, the Government scheme makes it easier for producers to reap the benefit of their investments, that’s all.
And I still believe it is right that people can make money from their investments – that is why investors invest. Had I invested my £20,000 in stocks or in some new business venture (say a new power station) I would expect to make money. Rightly or wrongly that is the way the capitalist world works.
And, insofar as being scammed is concerned, I reckon I’ll get back the cost of my investment in solar panels in less than 10 years (as a combination of resale of electricity and savings on the cost of normal grid supply). Can you suggest any other investment that would give the same return? Certainly keeping the money in the bank would do the job.
Hello Richard: You might “expect” to make a profit out of business ventures but of course the reality is you can often lose a lot of money too. Investments always have risk.
I don’t mean to imply that everyone who has solar panels has been scammed or even made a bad decision. I’m simply saying they aren’t a straight forward panacea investment, they are not for everyone by any means and many people will lose money on them. Many people are being conned into believing they are an investment and they’ll get their money back or make a profit when they won’t.
I agree. All investments carry a risk. But it is not unreasonable to expect to make money – that’s why people invest. And if investors lose money, well, that’s the way of it; the chance you take.
Wow! This is really getting into a big debate now!
First off – Apologies to Andy (Washerhelp) regarding the “other” board on this issue, where he says he feels I have misquoted him. I agree with Andy’s point that he has made in response. I’ll pop a note on there too.
Secondly, I think Andy (Washerhelp) is perhaps being a little sensitive, or naive, if he feels that Richard and I are unjustified in moaning about the issues around making profit from Solar Panel investment.
In my case the reason for fitting my solar WATER HEATING system had nothing to do with profit, at least not in the foreseeable term, at all, because you cannot feed in to any grid with solar water heating. However, I do resent very much, and I think I am totally justified in doing so, having a method of heating water that gives me at least 180 litres per day of water that is dangerously too hot really, and then being forced to pay for electricity to heat up water in a washing machine which simply will not take in the hot water in the cylinder. My solar water heating means taht for at least 5 months of the year I need NO gas boiler and NO immersion heater to have more hot water than I can possibly use, and yet the manufacturers are sticking their middle fingers up at me and Richard, et al, by saying, in effect, “F*** you, we don’t care that you have saved energy by heating your water for free and without generating any carbon, we’re going to make certain that you have to pay for electricity and create carbon just like anyone who has no solar”.
Now, I would actually have no qualms about this at all if it was an ANCIENT washer that would not take hot water and NEW ones DID – that would be PROGRESS, but as we all know, the opposite is true: ancient machines will take hot water and new ones, made and designed since Solar water hating has become popular throughout Europe, will not.
Richard has, I think (from previous posts) both solar water AND solar electricity systems. This means that these manufacturers are, if you like, sticking up both middle fingers at him as not only can he not use the hot water that he has gained for free from the sun, but the energy that he wastes using the electric heater in a modern washer is energy which, fair enough, he’s getting cheaper than most people because he generates most of it himself, but he could have ben exporting much more of it to the Grid, and getting paid, if the washer took in the hot water. In other words he is being forced to waste TWO types of energy that he has generated for free AND having to pay (or at least accept a reduced payback) for the privilege.
If you take this to a school yard level it is like having someone who has carefully made two toys out of spare parts for no cost, perhaps you could think of this as an impoverished child from a poor household, had both toys stolen by the bullies and now the same bullies are also demanding money with menaces from that same child. The toys represent the energy generated (Solar water and solar electricity), the theft of them is the washing machine makers forcing us to waste that energy because their machines won’t use it properly, and the money with menaces is the fact we then have to PAY for the energy that the machines do use.
And I’m sorry to say it, but anyone who says that they don’t understand why that would be wrong is, to continue the analogy, like a failing teacher who watches the bullying but can’t be bothered o stop it because they are afraid of having to do the work.
Hope this makes sense.
As for post 184, there is, sadly, much truth in the last sentence, but this is only because many unscrupulous dealers in solar equipment are operating in the same immoral way as many second had car dealers, and as schemes such as boiler scrappage, where they are seeking to make profit from GULLIBLE householders. In fact, such dealers are EXACTLY like the washer salesmen who are still telling outrageous lies by saying that cold fill is more economical when there is endless proof that this is an outright lie.
If sales people were honest then more people WOULD break even or get a payback form honestly priced and wisely sold solar systems.
What Dave writes above is an accurate summary of my situation.
Insofar as the “cowboys” are concerned, of course, there are rip-off merchants around to take advantage of every new development. Caveat emptor.
I researched before ordering my system and the installers, Chelsfield, did an excellent job, even coming back to sort out electrical issues caused by my house’s old wiring and charging me no extra. Furthermore, when the system kept shtting down because of grid disturbances they helped me identify the problem and, with their help, I managed to get my grid supply corrected by the supply company.
Even now with the short and gloomy days, I am still generating several kilowatt hours every day; on a bright day I often get 30 Kwh every day.
Thanks Dave: This topic is getting near to needing closing as it’s going round and round in circles and we are all making points we have made several times before.
I disagree that there’s endless proof that it’s a lie that cold fill is more economical though I feel the whole thing should be re-looked at now.
On 40 and 30 degree washes which it’s claimed most people use and using gravity fed hot water from hot water storage tanks which it’s claimed most people in the UK use I don’t believe a hot water valve would make much difference and could even cost more.
As I’ve said several times before I believe if washing machines want to claim true environmentally economical status they can no longer be tailored simply for the average user, or even the majority of users and must be capable of being used economically in all the difference circumstances one finds itself in such as a home that likes to was h regularly at 60 degrees and never uses biological detergent or one that has plenty of low cost or low carbon creating hot water.
Washing machines should now start having hot valves to be truly economical in all environments and so that all users can wash optimumly according to which wash programmes they individually use ( low temperature or high temperature – maintenance washes) and which powder they use (biological or not) and what their source of water is.
When you said
Your second paragraph concedes exactly the only point I was making which is that how can you install something for environmental reasons, or in the expectation of saving money on heating and electricity costs in the future and then later say you should be entitled to make a profit from it? I don’t say you shouldn’t, I just said it should be treated as a welcome but unexpected bonus and that even if they’d said you can have 10 pence for any surplus units generated most people would have been very happy with that.
As I think I wrote elsewhere, the feed-in tariff replaces the grants that were once available to those wishing to install solar-voltaic panels. Such grants are common enough when Governments wish to encourage people to do something (cf the car scrappage scheme).
Those who prefer to do so can eschew the feed-in tariff and sell their electricity back to the supply companies; if they sell more than they use then, again, they will make a profit. However, you would need a pretty large installation for that to be a better bet than the feed-in tariff scheme.
One reason why hot fill machines are available in Germany is, we have previously concluded, that the German Government provide grants for people to install solar water heating and it has hitherto been more common than it is here.
The first washing machine manufacturer to get out and take a look at the real world and meet the needs of the increasing numbers who are using solar water heating will, I feel sure, profit from the excercise.
Richard: But the numbers need to be enough to make it economically viable for manufacturers to change their designs. It’s not enough to say there are increasing numbers of people using solar water heating. They have to become the majority or look set to become the majority soon otherwise why would a manufacturer make more expensive machines for everyone just so the minority can use solar energy?
If you play the environmental card and say they should encourage the green way we all know that would just never happen. They would only go green or encourage green if it was in their own financial interests or were pressured by government. These manufacturers aren’t charities, they are trying to make profits out of the masses.
Any manufacturer that broke away too soon and catered for solar heating when it was still only used by a minority could never sell enough of them to make if viable. There are millions of amazing products that never make it to production or simply fail in the market because they aren’t financially viable or profitable because they simply cost too much to produce or don’t sell in big enough quantities in a mass international market.
Someone could bring out a niche washing machine like Miele’s Allwater but it has so relatively few potential sales it would have to be much more expensive than a normal model and that would limit sales even more. And as mentioned before, Miele only claim the ALlwater is more economical when washing at over 50 degrees for a family of four (or something like that).
I just think it’s naive for anyone to call on washing machine manufacturers to help people be green. They will do only if there is financial incentive for them to do so or they are forced by government.
But, as we have already established, Miele and others DO make a hot fill machine. They just don’t sell it in the UK. No more effort than adding it to their UK range is required.
But Miele DO make dual fill washers in vast numbers and sell them in almost every country EXCEPT UK so they will not be introducing a new model at any cost to them. Statesman also make TWO models now which retail under £300 so no one can argue it’s about manufacturers cost. We also know that many brand leaders make dual fill to sell all over the world except here. So the incentive / legal requirement issue is void. BTW Miele say the AllWater is better than cold fill only “full stop” in the only literature of theirs I’ve seen: I can find no mention of over a specified temp.
Hello Dave: The incentive / legal requirement is valid. Manufacturers do what they think is best for them. There’s no other way they operate. They don’t make washers with hot and cold valves or only cold valves for any other reason than they think it’s best for them.
For some reason it’s currently best for them to supply different machines to the UK than to other parts of the world. If they supply washers with hot valves in some countries but not others it’s because it suits them for whatever reason or they believe it suits the majority of consumers there or they are complying with regulations in that country.
Their reasoning may well be outdated but why else would they supply cold fill only to the UK and hot and cold to Germany unless that’s what they wanted to do or because that’s just the way it currently has to be for some reason they believe in. It costs them more to supply different fill machines. The cheapest option by far for any manufacturer is to produce one single type of machine and sell it everywhere.
Maybe they have been forced or pressured into providing hot valves in other countries but not the UK. One thing I do agree on is it’s all confusing.
For some reason they all think they need to supply different fill methods to different parts of the world and that costs them money so they wouldn’t do it if there wasn’t a reason that at least makes sense to them.
The UK was reportedly unique in having the majority of it’s hot water supplied via hot water tanks in the airing cupboard.
The Miele ALlwater savings calculation was for “a 4 person household and a programme mix of 250 cycles/year with a hot water temperature of 55′C.”
If someone from Miele and/or other manufacturers were to engage in debate on this topic it would not only help but would also be good manners and good business sense.
OK. First off we must be careful that we don’t degrade into a slanging match on here. Before we go any further I’d just like to state openly that although I am starting to disagree with more and more of what Andy (Washerhelp) is posting in reply to my and Richard’s points, I am not doing so just to be an awkward s*d nor do I intend it to come across personally: if it wasn’t for Andy we would not have the forum at all and we should bear that in mind.
Right.
Washing machine manufacturer’s not supplying hot valves and whether this is for financial and economic reasons, etc. (See post 193 for Washerhelp’s latest comment on this).
Miele, Statesman & LG DO supply hot and cold fill machines in most if not all other European countries and many outside Europe. Many other manufacturers also supply them outside the UK but not to the UK. Statesman are a UK company so it’s not surprising that they DO supply 2 models in the UK. LG appear to still supply 1 hot and cold model in the UK. LG has a proven track record of their hot and cold fill machines not actually taking in hot despite their claims, in very plain language, that they do use hot and that doing so does reduce the cost of running the machine. Miele, for some inexplicable reason, do not supply DOMESTIC washers with hot valves in the UK, but they DO supply a range of 8 machines (called little giants) which ARE identical to domestic models except for the stainless steel outer cabinet and tub … and the price tag. (I have it on the authority of a local Miele Commercial dealer that the machines are identical to the AllWater range save for these specific differences).
It is therefore a null and void argument to say that manufacturers will not supply hot and cold fill machines in the UK on commercial (i.e. profit) grounds. There is clearly some other reason which at present eludes us. This may be sheer bl**dy mindedness, some kind of perverse incentive from Government, being a cahoots with Electricity supply companies who want us to use more electricity so that they make more profit, or any other far fetched reason, but whatever it is, it is NOT due to the cost of them making and importing these machines.
Regarding the UK hot water systems.
We may, or may not, have been behind the rest of the EU in disposing of our hot water cylinders and gravity feed hot water systems, but we are now behind the rest of the EU in putting them, and solar systems, back. That aside, the manufacturers of Combi boilers (which have largely replaced cylinders and gravity feed) keep telling us that with a combi you get mains pressure hot water faster and cheaper than with a cylinder. Let’s assume that is absolutely true. If so then what better reason can there be for KEEPING hot water fill machines since more hot water would get into them than ever before. To connect the demise of the hot water cylinder and gravity feed with the removal of hot fill is a perverse logic which contradicts the claims of the manufacturers of both appliances.
LAstly, on contradictory claims, washer manufacturers are forever trying to tell us that their machines are “green” and “economical t run” and “environmentally friendly”. We have debated and disputed the accuracy of these claims but the fact that the claims are made means that the point in post 190 is negated.
I’m sorry Andy: I really don’t want to sound like I am just contradicting your for the sake of it, but the arguments or justifications that you have posted on these matters simply are not credible. (That’s not to say they are not what the manufacturers are saying to you – they make loads of incredible and in some cases proven untrue claims!)
Hello Dave: I’m just seeing this as debate thanks, none of us need get too serious about it :-)
You don’t appear to be reading my comments thoroughly as you keep misquoting/misunderstanding. It’s probably my own fault for making them so long :-) When you say “it’s therefore a null and void argument to say that manufacturers will not supply hot and cold fill machines in the UK on commercial (i.e. profit) grounds.” I didn’t say that, I said -”They don’t make washers with hot and cold valves or only cold valves for any other reason than they think it’s best for them. ”
I chose my words carefully because that statement covers all eventualities. If they are forced to do so because of regulations in a particular country then they think it’s best for them to comply. If they think people in a particular country don’t want or don’t need a hot valve they are doing what they think is best for their customers and therefore by implication what’s best for themselves. Whatever the reason they don’t supply hot valve washing machines in the UK is, no matter how legitimate or how stupid, they are doing it because it suits them, because they think it’s best for them, which is all I said. Even if the reason turns out to be because they can’t be bothered to look into it or change anything it still comes under the umbrella of what suits them.
I’ve not tried in any way to justify their position only explain it in a cold logical fashion.
I’ve also pointed out it makes no sense to accuse them of somehow scamming the UK. It costs more money to produce a separate line of washing machines just for the UK or a small selection of countries and the absence of a hot valve doesn’t add any increased perceived value so they don’t even do it in order to charge us a premium. There’s no logical explanation as to why virtually every manufacturer of washing machines in the world would supply the UK with cold fill unless there was a specific reason.
The reason we got cold fill washing machines in the first case many years back was precisely to align us with the rest of Europe which had been using cold fill washing machines for years. I don’t know if it’s now the case they are all moving back to hot and cold fill or not but if so we’ll end up with them eventually. No manufacturer wants to produce different models for different countries unless it suits them or they feel the different countries have different demands or requirements. All I say is there must be a good reason, one that’s “good” at least for the manufacturers.
My mother in law across the road from us has a combination boiler and her hot water at mains pressure does not come through quicker than our gravity fed one. In fact the higher the water pressure the longer it takes to run hot because it’s rushing over the heater so fast. The only way to get hot water is to turn the tap on so it runs slow and wait for it to run hot. One of the disadvantages quoted in an article about the two systems is that combi on demand systems have lower flow rates than stored systems, and flow rates decrease further in the winter when the incoming water supply is colder.
Other EU countries have a lot more sunshine than we do, maybe that’s one reason we are behind on solar panels?
Re: “My mother in law across the road from us has a combination boiler and her hot water at mains pressure does not come through quicker than our gravity fed one.”
It depends what boiler you buy, we have a Worchester 38Cdi (bigger boiler) and the hot comes out hot at full speed mains pressure just like the cold. I suspect your mother in laws boiler isn’t of big enough capacity to deal with the flow.
Our boiler also has a very small tank (a litre or so) inside the boiler which it keeps hot, hence it can cope with demand before the gas really kicks in.
That said, the washing machine is in the kitchen and the boiler is in the loft so it still takes 30 seconds to get hot water downstairs.
Regards.
Tref.
Yes that would be great.
Thanks Tefor: I suspect many houses have an underpowered boiler. I also expect that a boiler large enough to heat very cold fast flowing water instantaneously is unlikely to be environmentally friendly and as you say, if such a boiler isn’t next to the washing machine you still have a long time for it to arrive and you still have a lot of hot water drawn into the pipework between the boiler and the washing machine valve which gets totally wasted.
Quote “…Other EU countries have a lot more sunshine than we do, maybe that’s one reason we are behind on solar panels?…”
Some might – Greece for example – but not all of them, I suggest. Germany is probably level-pegging with us.
Re; ” I also expect that a boiler large enough to heat very cold fast flowing water instantaneously is unlikely to be environmentally friendly ”
I’m not sure that’s true, our hot water bill (summer time gas bill) is <£1/week! I think it's more about the cost of the boiler than anything else.
I read all that has been said in favour of the disappearance of washing machines with hot and cold water taps and wonder if you have ever used a machine with hot water tap.
I have used both types and can guarantee you that the manufacturers are finding cheap excuses to save money, since a number of parts are omitted along with the hot tap including the use of a cheaper logic chip.
I had an AEG front loading washer (hot & cold) for more than 24 years. When that finally gave up, I bought a new machine. Of course cold tap only, since the other type was not available.
The Kw-hours of electricity we consume now have increased dramatically.
All the arguments against the hot tap which I read, are based around homes with faulty water supply designs, where the pressures of cold and hot water are different, or the water gets cold in pipes, etc, etc.
The fact that the washing machine logic system opens only the hot tap when hot water is required, is completely disregarded. When hot water is required, it opens only the hot tap. The cold tap is opened only if the water is too hot to mix it down as required.
If the water is not hot enough, the electric elements come on to bring up the water temperature to the programmed degrees.
There is a big cost difference, between electrically heating stone cold water, even to 40 degrees and electrically heating lukewarm water to 40 degrees.
Now that no new homes are allowed to be built if inefficient, therefore inefficient plumbing (un-insulated pipes) and hot water supply systems will no longer get permits.
Will we have the hot tap back on the washing machines?
As you probably know in Cyprus all homes have solar systems on the roof. Therefore hot water is free. Pipes are insulated, pressures are equalized (supply is from the storage tank and where needed pressure pumps are used) and circulators ensure instant hot water at all points. Scarcity of water does not allow us to waste even one bucketful.
Don’t you think its time to get the hot tap back on the washing machines and to include dishwashers this time?
Will be please to read comments from others.
I have a hot and cold fill washer. To prevent the washer filling with cold before the hot gets through just partially close the cold inlet tap on the cold hose to slow the cold filling a little.
Certainly that would work – but an automatic washing machine should be automatic. It would be very simple to devise a valve that would do this automatically – and I’d not be surprised if some manufacturers are already doing just this.
Of course, they will lie and say they aren’t, whilst all the time selling such machines elsewhere in the world.
Warm rinsing with high water levels would be perfect for me. I have to tip jugfuls of hot water into the soap drawer into the main wash water so it starts off warm, but not too warm and also pour hot water into the rinses so that all the perfumes from the soapsuds get completely rinsed out.
If warm water gets added to the rinses instead of cold, you get the added benefit of extra cleaning from the remaining detergent as it gets dissolved more in each rinse. If you use fabric conditioner, warm water makes the clothes feel even softer compared to using cold water. ALL TRIED AND TESTED MANY TIMES.
The ideal solution would be to have the washing machine adjusted to fill with higher water levels for washing and rinsing and to use incoming water at 35C e.g. from a Thermostatic Mixer Valve. If anyone has this setup I’d be keen to hear from you.
Nothing but good results from using warm water for the main wash (and pre-wash, when used) and all the rinses, but the key word here is warm and NOT hot. Adding hot water to the existing cold water inside the drum is fine, but you don’t want to start off with incoming hot water above 35C.
Re post 205 (WMUSer).
Yes, agreed.
In fact you’ll find that I have mentioned the set up I had with a thermostatic mixing valve for the short time I had the misfortune to own a modern LG washer.
You’ll also find the many references I’ve posted to the German AlfaMix automatic mixing valve for washers.
Rinse water levels again absolutely agree: as do many (possibly all?) washing machine repair engineers and a few honest salesmen.
Interestingly the pile-of-rubbish LG that I had DID use warm final rinses (but heated the water from cold, what a criminal waste of electricity) and explicitly stated in the instructions that warm rinses were more effective.
As many have posted many times, especially Richard, all these solutions work fine, but the damnable thing is that the manufacturers know this and used to make machines that did these things but now they refuse to make them, or at least to sell them in the UK.
I’m glad you agree Dave (comment 206).
I don’t understand why washing machine manufacturers don’t make their washing machines for use in the “real world” conditions which work best. Maybe the “ISE” brand are an exception compared to all the others? But ISE don’t offer the hot water inlet valve – if I’m wrong, please correct me immediately, but I’m not aware of any manufacturer except LG offering the hot water inlet valve. Dave says he was unhappy with the LG, but at least it offered the hot water valve and performed warm rinses (surprisingly, by heating the water from cold instead of drawing water from the hot inlet!).
Apparently, the lack of incoming hot water is one reason why soap drawers get dirty very quickly. I prefer to put the detergent and washing soda into the drum and just use the drawer for conditioner. As the drum never gets overloaded, I never have a problem with undissolved detergent.
The lack of hot water valve, the low water levels etc. is the classic case of not sticking to “tried and tested” designs, but constantly coming up with new ideas which haven’t undergone years of testing in the real world. Any wonder why modern technology is so unreliable?
I have a question please, and I have read all that is on the web-site with great interest. I want to move my present machine which is hot fill to the utility room which doesn’t have hot water supplied. Can the machine just be allowed to cold-fill, or would this cause problems apart from the extra wear and tear mentioned? Thank you
You need this article sheila Is it possible to use a hot & cold fill washing machine with just a cold supply?
Mrs Sheila Butler must connect both inlet ports of her washing machine with the available cold water supply.
She can purchase a special interconnecting fitting which connects the cold water inlet pipe of the washing machine with its hot water inlet and then with the room cold water supply.
Thus the machine will take cold water, regardless of which of the two existing solenoid valves (hot or cold) opens.
It is a very low cost plastic pipe fitting which actually looks like a capital letter F. Its parallel legs are 3/4 inch female thread and the lower leg is 3/4 male thread.
My wife has used a washing machine connected like this for years, without any problem.
The Y piece suggested by “Washerhelp” will work, but requires 2 hoses.
The F connector, which I suggest, is better because it connects directly on the washing machine and only one hose is required.
One hose means reduced mess behind the machine and less possibility of folding or puncture.
The other hose, if available, can be kept as spare.
What’s an F connector? Do you have a picture of one?
If Sheila is lucky enough to have a hot-fill machine (where did you get it, Sheila?) then she might be better advised to get a plumber to run a hot outlet to her utility room. It’ll cost more than a simple valve – but think of the money she will save on electricity!
I shall check and if F connectors are still available I shall send a picture.
Unfortunately with the reducing availability of hot fill washers and the increasing availability of both cold and hot water connection in the newer houses and flats, it may not be so easy.
Richard English is absolutely right.
Sheila is well advised to follow his suggestion
Thank you both for those helpful comments. I have had my machine for a few years now and bought it in Comet. I am a bit concerned that I might cause the machine to bite the dust, but I want a dishwasher in the kitchen in its place, and the plumber suggested putting the washing machine in the utility room.
Then the plumber’s the person to talk to about getting your hot supply extended.
Regarding the suggestion to have a hot fill pipe fitted into the utility room it might be a good idea if the pipe run is short or the washer does a lot of 90 degree washes but the following points might be relevant..
Unless hot and cold fill washing machines come back the benefit will only be for the life of the current hot and cold fill machine.
The initial cost of having a hot water pipe installed could take years to recoup because the savings are not likely to be that much per wash especially for 40 degree washes.
If the hot water pipework is long it may not deliver hot water for most washes because of the oft mentioned cooling in the pipes issue and the low amount of water intake of modern machines. Unless the washing machine is a large capacity one which probably uses more water and the pipe run isn’t too long it’s likely that on most washes the washer will have finished filling as the hot water (which could be coming from a hot water cylinder miles away) starts to get into the machine.
Without the full information we can’t tell. But my previous comments apply.
The way to solve this problem, quickly, simply and relatively cheaply would be for manufacturers to fit a three-way valve whose settings are controlled by the microprocessor that is, I am quite sure, fitted to all modern machines.
This valve would allow water to be taken from the hot or the cold supply in the old-fashioned way but, to avoid the problem with long pipe runs not allowing hot water ro arrive before the drum is full, a third setting for the valve would allow the hot supply to bypass the machine and go straight to the drain until the unit senses it is hot enough. A delay setting (adjustable by customers to match the delay in their plumbing) would allow water to be taken after a set period, even when it is not as hot as required. This will allow the machine to continue to operate and heat water internally should the house supply be too cold. The only downside would be a small waste of water but the cost and ecological disadvantage of this would be far less than that of the wasted electricity. After all, it’s what we all do manually when we are washing our hands.
It all seems so obvious and simple to me I wonder why the clever engineers at the washing machine companies haven’t thought of it. Maybe I should patent the idea.
Hi Richard: It’s most likely just economics. Many inventions are brilliant and would serve a great purpose but they can’t get the cost down to levels that would sell in mass quantities. I would love our washing machine to send me a text message (it’s in the garage) when it’s finished washing. I would love my washing line to ring or text me when it detects rain. These are (in my opinion) genuinely useful features which could easily be done but they would probably cost too much and most people wouldn’t need them so they are unlikely to be developed.
The sophisticated use of thermostatic controlled fill and a method of recycling the cold water from the initial hot fill run are all doable but would add a certain extra cost to a washing machine. However I’m sure we agree that the time is right for manufacturers to seriously consider doing it right now.
Very interesting blog….I just wish I had arrived at these comments before I started the search for a washer/dryer replacement for our 15 year old Hotpoint hot and cold fill machine, with another hot and cold fill machine! I to have solar heating (built and installed myself some 25 years ago), and like others ‘draw off’ the cold water from the hot fill prior to starting a hot wash, theory being that even when there has been no solar heating it is still cheaper to reheat the used water by gas than electric.
Another reason I am keen to use ‘hot fill’ is that I live in area of the UK where scaling is a real problem. I have a water softener now and this is preventing the scaling that comes as a result of heating ‘hard’ water…but of course it is only the hot water circuit that benefits….so now unfortunately I am forced to buy a machine that will inevitably fail when the heater element becomes scaled up and burns out!
Dishwashers have an inbuilt softener…what of washing machines? How much of a problem is ‘hard’ cold water fill, and scaling on modern machines? Any suggestions as to how to reduce the impact of scaling? (I do have an in line magnetic device which seems to work OK with temperatures below about 65C)
Hello Norman: You installed solar heating 25 years ago? Radical :-) According to all my research, and information from manufacturers you shouldn’t need to add anything to protect your washing machine from limescale. Limescale protection is built into the detergent and limescale should only become a problem if you don’t use enough of it.
You need extra detergent in hard water areas but as long as you use the amount suggested by the detergent instructions it should protect your machine. Calgon and similar products are just water softeners, which doesn’t protect any different from detergent, it just allows you to use less detergent.
If Calgon is a lot cheaper than detergent and you save money by using less detergent plus Calgon it might be worth using, I wouldn’t be surprised if it works out little different but I haven’t done the maths. Using Calgon they say you can use the same amount of detergent as recommended for soft water areas, which they claim can be 25% less – so it depends how much you save by using less detergent compared to how much the Calgon tablets cost.. Should I use Calgon anti limescale tablets or other such products?
I have been by turns fascinated, alarmed and very grateful for all the comments on this particular topic. I had no idea when I asked the original question that I would get so much information and very helpful comments. To add my own comment about ‘hard water’ and its problems. I too live in a hard water area and used to buy water softening products for my hot washes. But I now put washing soda into both powder compartments as its cheaper and is traditionally a water softener. I think after all I will probably not bother with moving my washing machine because I think I will upset things. I’ll let sleeping dogs lie for the present. I take the points about heating up water which then gets wasted in the length it has to go before getting where you need it. It is very frustrating with energy costs the way they are. Thank you again everyone.
Sheila Butler
I asked the man at John Lewis and he told me that cold fill machines were cheaper to run! I told him that his statement slies in the face of logic. Most, I think, houses in UK still store hot water made cheaply by gas so hot fill – pipe runs etc being allowed for.
I have a greater incentive now because I have just installed solar water which is doing well – I am still learning about it.
My Zanussi machine is hot and cold fill but it only draws from the cold tap – I wonder what is wrong?
At present my boiler is off so the water only comes from the solar so I have simply swapped the pipes over such that the cold feed comes from the hot tap!
The washing is nice and warm after rinsing.
However I am not keen on this as a long term solution. Also the Zanussi is old so may not last for ever and it only spins at 800rpm and not the 1200 or 1400 common in new machines
Neadless to say I use a pulley to dry my clothes and not a tumble drier
Hi there,
I live on a riverboat without mains electricity, as do lots of people, so unless I start a noisy generator with expensive running costs the heater in a cold fill only m/c puts an unsustainable demand on the boat’s stored energy electrical system. Neither does the boat have mains water, pressure is artificially generated from a water pump so the hot and cold pipes supply water at the same rate. I’m happy to wash at 60 degrees, I can’t use ecologically agressive washing agents even if I don’t discharge the waste water into the river because I suffer psoriasis. I really would be willing to pay what it would cost for a machine which had a manually switchable heater and the intelligence to make sure that waters were mixed to a safe temperature before it reaches any sensitive clothing.
Dear Mr. Gallaway,
Any front loading washing machine with both cold and hot water inlets will do exactly what you describe.
And if it is also equipped with a temperature selector, you can adjust it to wash at any temperature you want and the machine will automatically do the washing at the selected water temperature.
When cold water is required, the cold water electromagnetic valve will open.
When hot water is required, the hot water electromagnetic valve will open.
If the incoming water is hotter than required, the cold water valve will also open, until the water is cooled down as required.
If the incoming hot water is not hot enough, the washing machine will automatically switch on its electric heating element until the required temperature is reached.
Ask the seller and make sure it works like this. Read the instructions too. If the washer does not work as described do not purchase it.
Maybe Mr Simonis would be good enough to tell us where such a machine as he describes can be bought in the UK.
This has, as I recall very well, been the substance of the postings here over the past five years or so.
Indeed this has been the substance of the postings, including my own, most of which were against the fact that many manufacturers, unjustifiably in my opinion, have stopped producing hot and cold water intake washing machines.
I wish I could help Mr. English.
Two years ago, our over 25 years our old AEG hot and cold water intake washing machine had to be replaced.
The local AEG distributors did not stock a similar replacement model and we could not stay without for the 2 months needed until they imported one for us.
I looked around for another make and located 2, but my wife did not want to risk a machine made by a manufacturer she did not know. So we purchased a cold water only intake machine.
Since then, I have not looked around to see what is available now.
Perhaps Mr. English can contact the local suppliers and or his preferred manufacturers.
It so much easier now through the internet.
Been there. Done that. Either no answer at all or a negative answer. Manufacturers (such as Miele) who produce dual-fill machines don’t sell them in the UK.
This has been the gist of the discussions here over the past five years.
Peter Dunlop
Hi Peter: I hope the water isn’t too hot. There are some points you might want to consider here Don’t connect the hot water supply to the cold valve on a cold-fill washing machine
Hi all, I stumbled on this thread whilst googling WM problem troubleshoots (looks like my Hotpoint has worn bearings, probably not worth the repair cost). I confess that after half an hour reading I skipped to the bottom, so forgive me if this has been covered, but: has anyone ever thought of simply running a length of hosepipe from the hot tap straight into the soap draw? I mean manually, temporarily, and removing it when the machine has filled? I’ve always done this as I prefer a medium hot wash; it really does seem to get things cleaner regardless of which detergent I use.
On the Hotpoint this medium hot program was 60 degrees, which was pretty much the only setting I ever used., but I always questioned whether it ever actually reached this temp. As covered at the top of the thread, the bulk of the water came from the cold feed due to much greater pressure, and the wash cycle started so soon after filling that I can’t believe it had time to heat up properly. It certainly didn’t feel that hot, hence my DIY fix, which is actually much easier and less faff than it sounds, takes just a few minutes. Cold only feed may/not be more/less economical/efficient etc etc but I stopped believing manufacturers about anything at all the day they claimed CDs were better than vinyl and I refuse to let them dictate to me.
Partly for this reason I always try to buy good condition 2nd hand, no matter what the item. Yes it’s less convenient but you can save a fortune and you’ll surprisingly often get better quality, likely to have been built more towards a standard and less biased towards price. And older items are usually easier and cheaper to repair (just think of cars with their computerized, sealed-unit, main dealer only engine components). Manufacturers love us to believe that we have to buy brand new because of the lack of spare parts, but there are still plenty of private one man band type repair engineers about who usually have a shed or workshop full of spare parts going back decades. The choice is still ours, don’t let them prove that “the public want what the public get!”.
Our electricity bill has gone up enormously since we had to get a cold fill only. What a con when the salesmen say you don’t need hot fill!!!
I notice that the Obergrupenfuhrer of this illustrious forum has been favoured with mention in this Month’s Which? magazine. Sadly, though, on the topic of repairability rather than dual fill.
Nice one Richard: I had never thought of Andy as a “Senior Group Leader” but actually I guess that is a literal translation of his role with respect to these fora.
I too noticed his name in the article, to which I had offered contributions which were not printed in the end. I suspect that mine gave far too many counter-examples and reasons not to swallow the bu115h1t spouted by the manufacturers and. I’m sorry to say, all too often by Which? as well, to be politically acceptable for press. Doubtless the fact that I referred Which? to their own Which? legal dept who had helped me out over the issues with my silly LG washer, was also dodgy territory for them to publish.
Cheers lads: I haven’t seen the Which? article yet but hope to be receiving a copy via post soon. I have written many articles on the subject of the lack of repairability of many modern white goods appliances on this Blog, Washerhelp forums and Washerhelp.co.uk, which was helpful to the Which? researchers.
I left comments a couple of years ago! Regarding Hot & Cold fill machines and how pleased I am with my now 7 year old Bosch machine. I recently bought my sister a second hand Siemans machine which is a similar age machine for under a £100. which is hot & cold fill. It has a slightly mouldy door seal which can will cost me £25 to replace. Who wants to bet me !!!! that both these machines are still going strong in another 5 years! Which is more than can be said for the average cold fill mid price range washer on sale now.I I can back up my confidence in this matter by telling you what I did for a living (redundancy within the next month) working in customer service booking service engineer appointments for electrical appliances including washers. Its a myth that cold fill is better or more efficient especially for those people with solar power hot water.supply. Tell it to the hand ! people who are lucky enough to have an older machine with Hot & Cold fill are happier with there wash & performance & seldom need a service engineer.
I’ve now fully read the Which? article.
No criticism of Andy at all here, his contribution is interesting and helpful and positive, but yet again I despair of Which? and their infantile naivety!
They are presenting data to suggest that modern appliances are more reliable based on such ludicrous data as “ten years ago 21% of washing machines six years old needed to be repaired, now the figure is 12%”.
I say this is ludicrous because elsewhere in the article they present data to tell us that the overwhelming majority fo customers change appliances, working or not, in much less than 6 years and they state openly “consumer attitudes to repairing ……are changing – fewer are repaired when they break down …….replacing broken machines is on the rise and twice as many appliances are replaced whist still working….”
Sorry – I know that this is not strictly on-topic for this board, but it just infuriates me so much that Which?, who are supposed to stand up for consumers, so often p[resent these hopelessly laughable articles. I’m sorry for Andy being associated with it to be honest.
Hi Dave: I’ve received a copy today :-) Haven’t read it yet though. I will look out for the point you make. I would agree that if 10 years ago 21% of washing machines needed a repair and that figure is now 12% it could have more than one explanation and doesn’t necessarily mean they are more reliable.
But the figures could still include these washers that are thrown away though. It all depends where the figures came from. I suspect they might be Which? members. If they poll all their members then it depends on what question was asked. If it was just, how many times have you had your washing machine repaired, then it might not pick up those that simply dumped them when they broke down, but if it asked, how many times did your washing machine break down it should pick them all up.
It is possible that washing machines are generally more reliable, but when they do go wrong they are less repairable and more likely to be beyond economical repair.
The argument that hot-fill washing machines are of poor quality in unfounded. My Creda hot water washing machine which I suspect is a badged Bosch is 22years old and still giving good service.
The hot and cold water input into the machine is controlled from the hot and cold manually operated valves at the rear that were adjusted when it was first installed, as per the instructions. The cold valve was turned down so that the pressure of the cold water coming in matched the pressure of the hot water coming in, so there was no contest between the two supplies. Precise instruction were provided to ensure these were correctly set.
With the knowledge gained by having worked in the electrical industry for over 50 years; I don’t buy any of the arguments put forward by the manufacturers they do not stack up. Let them manufacture both and let informed buyers decide which they prefer.
It’s a pity that funnyoldsoul’s electrical experience wasn’t in the washing machine industry. Had that been that case we might now have intelligent machines (and intelligent customer-relations departments) from today’s manufacturers.
Funnyoldsoul: Whether a washing machine has a hot vale or not doesn’t have anything to do with reliability. Washers may have been more reliable in the past when they were hot and cold fill but that wasn’t anything to do with having a hot valve or not.
I personally believe consumers get what they want. Unfortunately it’s the masses that decide what they want for us all and they want cheap washing machines it seems. Hopefully though this is changing..
Hi, I need a new washing machine and like some of your other bloggers I have solar and ground source heating. To have to use electricity in the summer when doing a hot wash is incredibly irritating.
I also use my washing machine to dye articles of clothing, towels and sheets etc. to give them a new lease of life. Using Dye needs very hot water immediately, not heated up slowly. However it is the day to day heating of water for washing that I am realy interested in. My washing machine is in the utility room, where I have a sink and taps, so when I want to do a hot wash I resort to attatching a hose to the hot tap andjust before I turn machine on i run the hot water through the tap and hose into the dispenser drawer , where it flows into the machine until I think there is enough in there. The machine then senses the temperature of the water end just gets on with it.
But I am looking to replace my aged Hoover with something that does have a hot fill option. Can any expert out there tell me which machines to look for, preferably with 8kg or more capacity….? ? ?
Sadly, as has frequently been posted here, the washing machine manufacturers claim that there is no demand for dual-fill machines in the UK – even though they make them for other markets.
I share your irritation at having to pay to electrically heat up cold water , when my solar panels supply as much as I need for nothing.
Having said which, I now have solar voltaic panels so, when the sun is shining well, I get free electricity as well as free hot water, and so it is not as expensive to run my washer as used to be the case.
@ Sue: I’m afraid I have no suggestions for a good washer to look out for that has a hot water connection as the only one I am aware of is the Miele AllWater which appears not to be available in the UK and Miele are extremely rude and obstructive about explaining why. That said if you can afford to spend over £2k you can buy a Miele Little Giant commercial washer which is identical to their AllWater domestic machine except that it is housed in a stainless steel cabinet and the tub and drum are both made of high grade stainless steel. It’s a standard size and will fit anywhere a normal front loader will fit.
What I will say is whatever you do don’t buy an LG of any kind. You will find out about my disastrous experience with them, and the horrific energy guzzling nature of them, a way back on this board. It was also exceedingly unreliable. and the customer service from LG was into negative coefficients.
Personally I have a 1983 Hoover which I got reconditioned when I scrapped the 18 month old LG. It’s hot and cold fill, reliable and does the job.
Sorry I can’t be of more help.
I absolutely HATE my cold-fill washing machine. Why? Because it takes 2 hours and 38 minutes to do a cotton wash that took a little over an hour on my old hot-fill one that, sadly, suffered terminal failure after a long trouble-free career. And why does this matter? Because if I look at the weather when I get up, and then put a wash on, half the day is gone before I can hang it out. So it doesn’t have as long to dry, and I have to bring it into the house and use the tumble dryer. Where is the energy efficiency in that?
Hello Anne,
Everyone agrees with you – apart from the washing machine manufacturers, of course. They only make dual-fill machines for countries like Germany where, as everyone knows, the entire country uses solar-heated water to take afvantage of the perpetual sunsine they experience.
You highlight nicely how stupid it is to impose so-called solutions on everyone Anne, and how often the opposite effect is achieved. The only thing that makes sense is to let well informed people choose exactly how they use their washing machines.
Just to say, what a superb item this was to read, very informative and well written.
Now, I am an electronics engineer, I can’t say much more , but save as to say I have been involved with the new European energy efficiency legislation..so I thought I look at this from a different angle.
There are all sorts of contributing factors….but one that has been left out is \ may be the real reason!!!
Here goes…..
You can’t assess the energy efficiency of a system such a a washing machine unless you very accurately know how much energy you have put into it in the first place…..if you have a hot water input the water can enter at all sorts of temperatures so you can’t give it a proper energy rating as there are too many factors!! So, take off the hot pipe and bingo..it’s easier to put a label on it now telling you how efficient it is A+ well efficiency is a relative thing..if you can supply it with water that has been heated for less than half the cost by using gas (as it is in the UK) then surely its better to have both hot and cold inputs.
Even if it has cold water in the pipes first..it’s still better than electically heating it…and should make for FASTER WASH AS WELL!
Hmm, that’s a very good point, mike Davies, and it would make perfect sense of the EST’s insane admission that they (quote) “know all new washing machines use more electricity than older ones” .
However, if that is the reasoning, I’m dismayed at the infantile level of thinking displayed by those responsible. All that is needed is for the energy rating to be obtained, as it is now, on a specified cycle but with the addition of a specified water input temperature. This could be 15 deg C (which I think I am right in saying is what “cold” water is deemed to be on cold fill only machines), or 60 degrees C (the temperature stored water should be at to prevent legionella breeding in it) or indeed any other temp in between. As long as the inlet temp is specified universally and adhered to by the testing labs it can be used just as well as the assumed “cold” temp.
As you already know from my previous comments in support of the washing machine with both hot and cold water inlets, I am a Mechanical Engineer.
The comments of Mike Davies are truly worth noting because they are accurate, correct and to the point.
We don’t need any more excuses.
We need to persuade the manufacturers to put this type of washing machine back on the market.
Let us start writing to them.
Their marketing people will soon take notice.
The surprising thing about all this is that one hears so many arguments in favour of costly, untried and complicated ideas (carbon capture for example) while simple, tried, dependable and inexpensive ideas which do save energy and therefore reduce pollution and co2, are abandoned.
Thanks for your contribution mike: I’m not so sure of your theory though because the temperature of cold water is also inconsistent and fluctuates. It could be anything from almost freezing, to almost room temperature. Therefore the same uncertainties would apply (if on a lower scale). If accuracy is needed then cold water is no more accurate. An exact temperature would be required.
Wouldn’t the tests for measuring efficiency be done under laboratory conditions with real-world conditions somewhat irrelevant, in the same way that car mpg figures are done in test conditions, which few users ever match? I would have thought the same applied to energy usage in washing machines, which clearly will be different for almost everyone. I assume the figures meant to be a way of comparing products rather than the actual figures you can expect.
Having them take in hot water would not hinder energy usage figures, on the contrary it should either make little or no difference or improve energy efficiency.
As far as I can see, both the following statements are completely true -
Hot and cold fill washing machines are not the most efficient
Cold fill only washing machines are not the most efficient
Neither is best and yet either are best for some. It depends entirely on how the washing machine is being used and how it is connected to water supplies.
I presume we all agree here that the only sensible argument is for genuinely intelligent hot and cold machines. :-)
Quote “…I presume we all agree here that the only sensible argument is for genuinely intelligent hot and cold machines. :-)…”
And as I have frequently remarked, the techonology already exists and has existed for years. Using the simple thernostatic valve as found in showers, it would be very simply to allow a machine to take in water at any temperature it needed. The selection of the temperature and the control of such a valve would be easy to contrive using the kind of microcircuits that are now so ubiquitous and cheap.
My classic car, now over thirty years old, has an electro-mechanical system which ensures that the temperature of the air inside remains exactly at the driver-selected temperature, regardless of the external conditions. Nowadays almost all cars have a similar system using a micro-computer – which is probably better and certainly cheaper.
If car manufacturers can do it then washing machine manufactureres should be able to do it.
It’s lack of will, not lack of ability.
I think Antonis makes a very good point. It does seem to be demonstrably true that if simple solutions work they are disregarded infavour of over complicated and often. Less efficient and less effective solutions.
Hot and cold fill may not be universally best and neither is cold fill but I’m unconvinced that technically complex “intelligent” machines will be any better than old hot and cold fill machines that simply took I whatever water was supplied and heated it IF REQUIRED to reach wash temp.
As a race we do seem to bbe obsessed with technology for technology’s sake
Hi washerhelp, firstly, it’s not a theory.
And in answer to your posting…the standards specify the incoming cold water to be between a range of temperatures that are considered typical.
To conform to the the CE standards, the machine has to be able to then heat and regulate the temp of this water, prior and during the wash cycle, to within certain temp ranges to suit the detergent used etc.
It is very much easier and more controllable to increase water temp from a variable range to a specific hot temp then it is to accept hotter water than required, for example, and wait for it to cool, or to mix hot and cold to the right temperature. Or, indeed have a range of hot water coming in which steadily increases from cold to probably too hot. as the hot water supply steadily warms up.
So, take it from me…90 percent of the reason for modern washing machines having no hot input is due to such machines being more difficult and expensive to design and then subsequently specify the efficiency rating for…..its is just one of many fudges or “EURO CONs” that we have to tolerate.
since you are only using electricity to input energy to the machine it is easier and cheaper to conform to the standards…and indeed give the machine a higher efficiency rating so it looks more attractive to the customer.
This is why the hot water…”adds complications” to the system….it’s not to bad if the hot water could be specified within a certain “workable” range..but it can’t…it varies from almost freezing to boiling.
Does this make it any more clear?
that’s why the hot inputs disappeared round about the time of the efficiency rating appearing.
No, we do not all agree.
We are talking about automatic washing machines here. Are we not?
Automatic hot and cold fill machines are intelligent.
As they take hot water, if required, they add cold water to bring the fill water to the required temperature.
If the hot water is not hot enough, they heat it up to the required temperature.
Let us be practical.
Let us take 2 washing machines. One is cold fill only, the other one is hot and cold fill. Both are classified at the same efficiency. Let us assume A.
We shall test them in the same typical house. It does not mater if the house is in the UK (where the house hot water is heated by gas), or in Cyprus (where it is heated by the sun via the solar system).
We connect first the cold only machine and measure the electricity consumed, by washing a specific weight of clothes, at a specific program which requires hot water.
Now we remove this washing machine and connect in its place the hot and cold fill machine.
We measure the electricity consumed, by washing the same weight of the same type of clothes, at the same program.
Which machine do you think will consume less electricity?
So it does not depend on how the machine is being used and how it is connected to the water supplies.
The hot and cold supply washing machine will always be more economical to run (will consume less electricity), simply because we are always talking about the same owner in the same house. (i.e. the same circumstances).
A different owner in another house will probably consume less or more electricity than the other owner.
But again if this different owner is using a cold fill machine and changes to a hot and cold fill machine, his electrical consumption will be reduced.
Yes, I do have to agree with Antonis again.
It defies the laws of physics to say that a machine which has to use more energy to raise the temperature of water by a greater number of degrees can possibly be more efficient than one which doesn’t have to raise the temperature by as many degrees and therefore doesn’t use as much energy.
We’ve discussed this for several years now of course, and as Antonis says, we don’t all agree and it’s no use trying to say that we do.
The nearest we get to agreement is to say that what is on the market is unsatisfactory, but that’s about it.
I think it is significant, but quite possibly not directly relevant, that washing machine engineers and sales outlets who deal with older and newer machines continue to say that the older ones perform better and live longer than the new ones, to the extent that my favourite dealer is still telling me that my 29 year old washer is likely to carry on going for more years from this point onwards than any new one I could walk out of the shop with today.
That’s not because the old one is hot and cold fill (at least not as far as I know) but it does suggest to me that the obsession with highly technical solutions makes the appliances generally less effective (possibly less efficient) and shorter-lived.
Mike Davies’s comments make a lot of sense – the “efficiency rating” fudge is the reason why the hot input disappeared in the UK.
But I have just one question: If the efficiency-rating is an EU requirement – how come dual fill machines are sold in many EU countries (Germany and Italy, I know) but not in the UK (a member of the EU the last time I looked)?
Richard,
Could be a couple of reasons.
1. I thnk the UK was amongst the first to adopt the harmonised standards, they are not all adopted at once throughout Europe.
2. there was a time period allowing people to sell stock of non conforming items, so they may still have been on sale due to that.
3. The manufacturer may have adopted another way of conforming to the standard whilst having both hot and cold inputs.
I can only base the information I have given on my own experience as a consultant engineer for one particular manufacturer.
There is no doubt that if you can initially put warm water into a machine that was warmed using a process which costs less than electricity, then that is the cheapest way to run the machine.
The main argument though, is that the initial amount of warm water soon cools and always has to be “topped up” in temp by the use of electricity, so the savings are limited.
Also, as I think has been mentioned on here by others, there is a danger of damage to the washing powder (or\and indeed to the washing items themselves) if the hot water is fed in at temperatures towards boiling point.
Many modern machines cope with this by adding cold water as well during the fill, some in a very intelligent way…some not!
I think I remember someone saying that most dish washers have used just cold input for years…As a matter of interest, one of the contributing factors to this is that fact that dish the dish washing process is impaired greatly by the use of hard water (it leaves marks on the glasses etc.) and it is very difficult to cheaply treat hot water, instead , common salt is often used with the cold water, but it does not work well if the water is initially hot…so I am told, but I am not a chemist…
Oh, and Antonis Simonis, you are fairly correct in your statements. yes, generally speaking washing machines use less electricity if they have a hot input as well as cold, but it is difficult to define how much more efficient they are.
So, manufacturers only run the washers on electricity so they can be assessed to the standards directly also then they can be compared to each others models by the other manufacturers….somewhere in there documentation they should really state the range of cold water temperatures they take in.
Oh , and of course..by removing the hot water input the machine is simplified which reduces costs.
Oh also, washer help, I hope I did not appear to be impolite.
Yes, you are also correct on most of your statements.
And I would say that there may be a route to conformity for a designer If he argued that he was “stating the minimum efficiency of his machine in one operating mode” (i.e with cold water alone). And, that when used with hot water the machine would only become more efficient.
But, remember total efficiency, in this context also includes minimising the use of water and potentially environmentally damaging chemicals. and these are other factors that can complicate the issue further.
So, using less hot water in modern machines (as stated by others) tends to result in less hot water getting in anyway.
I would guess that quite a complex system would have to be employed to ensure the hot water did not damage the new very low temp detergents.
Then how would you sell such a machine that is probably marked A rating..then make statements saying could be much higher efficiency than A if you use with hot water , as long as the water is hot directly at the inlet to the machine and stays hot for the duration of the fill.
So as you say,…I think the best thing to do is have hot and cold inputs and intelligent machines.
The delay in harmonisation cannot be the reason, since Miele (to name but one) have relativly recently introduced a new range of dual-fill machines that they sell in German – but not in the UK. They won’t tell us why not, though.
Hello mike: No problem, I only used the word theory because of your phrase, “it may be the real reason”. Your contribution is very useful.
Antonis: Sorry but hot and cold fill washing machines are NOT intelligent. The entire point of this article, and all the years of comments is that they are not intelligent. They could be, but they are totally wasteful and ineffective for many people depending on their individual set up.
Dave: I don’t understand how you can say “weve discussed this for several years now .. and as Antonis says, we dont all agree and its no use trying to say that we do.”
Which part of the statement in my last post do you disagree with and why?
Surely only manufacturers and salesmen would try to argue either one of those statements is wrong?
Also why do you disagree with my closing statement? “I presume we all agree here that the only sensible argument is for genuinely intelligent hot and cold machines.” Surely you can’t disagree with that?
I’m thinking these comments have become so long and protracted that even the main protagonists have lost sight of what is agreed and what isn’t.
Here’s a summary of what I think, and have said (too) many times -
I’m at a loss as to why any of the main contributors to this long running discussion would disagree with any of those statements.
hello Richard English,
Hmm. well there is a question, there is , as a I said, every chance they conform to the standards in other ways.
As for it not being in the UK. these standards are the same across europe so I am not sure
@Washerhelp.
Hi Andy,
I think you may have mis-read my last post because the question that you pose directed towards me in your post of Nov 14th 12:54 p.m. doesn’t make sense if you quote what I wrote in full.
I wrote: “We’ve discussed this for several years now of course, and as Antonis says, we don’t all agree and it’s no use trying to say that we do.
The nearest we get to agreement is to say that what is on the market is unsatisfactory, but that’s about it.”
The second sentence of my quote is very important but you omitted it when you were challenging me.
I’m offended by your assertion that the main protagonists of these board have lost sight of what we agreed on, when you don’t quote me in full thus altering the meaning of what I said.
As far as I can see, and I’m sure both you and other contributors will quickly correct me if I am wrong, everything you posted in your last post in order to challenge me simple emphasises that fact that the only thing we do all agree on, is exactly what I said: “that what is on the market is unsatisfactory, but that’s about it.”.
I maintain that this is all we all agree on. You regularly stick up for the cold fill only option, with valuable and important caveats about intelligent machines being required, other folk have their say to support whatever their view is, and some of us, most certainly including me, continue to support the view that the “traditional” hot and cold fill, as sold in many countries other than the UK right now, is at the very least better than cold fill only, even if it is not the ultimate in perfection.
Whilst I’m posting, and going back toe the recent issue over whether cold only is to allow for testing to apply the energy ratings, there has been some debate as to whether it’s harder to test using variable temps of hot water coming in than it is using only “cold” water, but in the instructions for mum’s Miele (cold fill only, A++ rated for energy, Which? best buy) it states that the test results for energy rating “ASSUME a cold water temperature of 15 degrees C”. Elsewhere in the instructions it gives approximate wash times but says that these are “based on an incoming water temperature of 15 degrees C”.
I don’t know how the 15 degrees C is arrived at and I don’t care, but the incoming mains cold water in the UK is never as high as 15 degrees C straight from an underground mains pipe (indeed Yorkshire Water state that the average UK mains water temperature is 8 degrees C), so we must ASSUME that the energy rating of top-of-the-range machines like the Miele are actually exaggerated and using UK water will be unrealistically good.
This being the case there would be no harm in rating hot and cold fill machines with an ASSUMED inlet temperature of 60 degrees C, which is the minimum required to kill off legionella in pipes and cylinders and boilers and is also the recommended safe domestic hot water temperature for supplies at household taps. Many such machines woudl then be MORE efficient than stated due to hotter supplies and a few would be less efficient due to cooler supplies.
I don’t see why there would be any need for complicated explanations and marketing (as pondered by Mike Davies) because it would be no different from the situation with the Miele and the assumed 15 degree inlet, and that doesn’t come with complex sales and rating details.
Hello Dave: I made a list of 7 statements on my last post plus a general statement just before it saying that the only sensible argument is for genuinely intelligent hot and cold machines.
All statements are arguing for reinstatement of a hot valve. As far as I can see you shouldn’t disagree with any of those statements. If that’s the case then you can’t say that all we agree on is that current cold fill washing machines are unsatisfactory. As far as I can see we all agree entirely with the statements in my last post. Therefore I’m struggling to see what the problem is other than the lack of take up by the manufacturers so far.
However, I don’t agree that hot and cold fill washing machines are better as an interim measure because I believe it’s beyond any doubt that cold fill washing machines are clearly better for many people, just as hot and cold may be better for yourself and many others too. The point is that neither cold fill only or hot and cold fill are the answer. Either will always be worse for some and better for others.
In my own case, dual fill would be very sensible. On sunny days, when I get free hot water and free electricity, I can leave both valves open and wah=she during the day. In the middle of the winter I can choose to use gas-heated water (in which case I leave both valves open) or electrically-heated water, using off-peak electricity – in which case I could turn the hot valve off.
But the manufacturers obviously know better – even though not one has been in touch with me to ask what I feel about the issue.
Hi,
For the amateur scientists among us here is a suggestion on getting some real world readings on the effect of using domestic hot water feed or the electric immersion on the washing machine:
A plug in kWh meter can be bought for about £30 on the web.
The resolution is down to 0.1 kWh increments (100W run for 1 Hour)
1. Run the machine and measure the elec consumed with the hot feed enabled. (do not run off hot first)
2. Run the machine with the hot feed valve turned off.
The difference in the two is the amount of electricity use on the immersion that was offset by the hot water fill.
To make it more sophisticated draw off water before run 1. as an option so that hot water is present right at the machine before the cycle is started. The difference between that and the result from 1. shows an amount of elec that the washer is being tricked into using when drawing off the cold water in the initial hot pipe draw off. (for the hot water system in the property concerned)
The cycle experiment could be repeated for 30 Deg C, 60 Deg C and 90 Deg C washes.
On a perfect machine in our eyes the kWh difference between a no hot fill use cycle and hot fill use available right at the machine would be the amount of electricity consumed by the motor and electronics during the cycle. The results will probably vary widely depending on the machine and the assumptions/ values in the algorithms that control temp and water valves and the immersion heater.
I can’t do the experiment as my washing machine is under my beer fridge and wine rack and I’m too busy with that to move it.
BTW in Public Health Engineering asumed UK cold temp is 10 DegC. 15 Deg C may be the European wide average or something.
Cheers
I have a meter of the kind you describe but, sadly, I can’t use it as it tells lies. It measures the amount of electricity flowing in the meter cables, certainly, but it doesn’t know whether that electricity is coming from the Grid or going into the Grid.
So, when the sun is shining brightly, it is clocking up flow rates of over 3 Kwh – but that current is coming from my solar panels and flowing into the Grid. The continual variation in solar power means that it’s impossible to undertake the test unless it’s done entirely during the night.
In reply to Steve (above): I did this with my old Hoover Automatic back in 2007 when it was getting near the end of it’s life and I was faced for the first time with the nightmare of not hot fill machines to buy. The results showed that the use of hot water for 60 degree and 95 degree cycles cut the cost of the cycle from around 2.5 kWh (hot turned off) to barely 0.75 kWh (with hot turned on). For cooler washes – 40 degrees – that machine took in a very unscientific mix of hot and cold by simply opening both valves together until =enough water had been taken in. The results were less dramatic but still significant, cutting the energy used from around 1.5 kWh (hot off) to about 0.5 kWh (hot on).
Much more alarming was when I bought a Which? best buy, Energy Saving Trust recommended, A+++ energy rated LG to replace the old Hoover and found, using the same energy meter, that that machine used a staggering 4.5 kWh to do a 60 degree cotton wash and an eye-watering 2-and-a-bit kWh to do a 30 degree coloured wash (all cold water going in).
I posted at length on many occasions about this back in 2008 and washerhelp (and few others) kept trying to convince me that maybe this wasn’t as bad as it looked because the new machine had a capacity of 7kg compared to the old one having 5kg (not much use when the new one blew up three times in 18 months and on the first repair the engineer said that if you put anything over half the capacity in LG machines the motors could not cope and would fail); the new one would be better for using Biological powders than the old one (not much help when I never ever use bio powders because they irritate my skin) and other such suggestions as to why the new one was ok really. Even worse, when I got in to an argument with EST they eventually wrote admitting that they know that ALL modern machines use MORE energy than older ones.
Anyway, all that is posted in much detail if you are interested way back on this and the sister board. The LG was cr*p and neither washed nor rinsed properly and after less than 18 months had blown up 3 times and I sent it to the skip, buying instead a second hand reconditioned 1983 Hoover with hot and cold fill and I’m still enjoying fast, efficient, CHEAP washes form that.
And that, to save me posting a separate response, is the central argument that I keep repeating and which Washerhelp and I have disagreed upon again only just a few days ago: if early 1980′s technology (in reality it’s almost unadulterated 1960′s technology), using incredibly UN-intelligent hot and cold fill, can get a boil wash done with less than a kilowatt of electricity, and a 2008 super efficient machine uses twice that to do a 30 degree wash, I see no point in debating whether we need “intelligent” hot and cold fill or not. First of all we just need “traditional” hot and cold fill back on the market, and then we can start tinkering to try to make it even better if you like.
I’ll end by repeating one other thing that I have posted many times before: Miele sell a hot and cold fill commercial machine in the UK. It’s a “little giant” (there are several versions). It is the same size as a domestic washer and has a 5 or 6 kg capacity depending on the version you