Isabel
#1. November 3rd, 2007, at 5:34 AM.

I think that a hot and cold fill washing machine is absolutely not necessary. It’s just a waste of money which the ultimate consumer pays. In the UK many households have a hot water boiler, which means that you pay for heating up your water anyway. If you use a gas boiler, It’s even worse. Using the hot valve is like using hot tab water for cooking or to boil water in the kettle. It doesn’t make much sense. A new cold fill washing machine heats the water even more energy efficient, I guess. In Germany and most other countries, a hot water connection for washing machines does not even exist. Germany has a very high quality standard. The best washing machines are Made in Germany (Miele, AEG, Bosh, Siemens) and if a hot water valve would be better, the Germans would definetely not miss out on it. Why do mainly the cheap crappy washing machines have that feature? Because the good brands know and do much better.

Chris
#3. November 10th, 2007, at 11:02 PM.

With all the pushing and shoving in the UK to get people to fit solar-panels, I find it laughable that the “free” hot water thus acquired through solar heating cannot now be used to wash clothes! You use energy whichever way it goes…either to heat the hot-water tank or via the electric that’s used to heat water in the washing machine. Presumably the same thinking will start applying soon to dishwashers (though I don’t own one so won’t be bothered).
I read somewhere that solar panels can get water up to around 30 degrees C, surely if that went direct into a washing machine it would be a pretty good starting point for lower-temp washes? I rarely wash things any higher than 50C. I think someone’s fallen a bit short on joined-up thinking here….the opportunity to utilise solar-heated water for washing clothes has been well and truly scuppered, so that’ll put a lot of people off installing solar. May as well go back to washing clothes in the bath-tub.

Stan Thomas
#5. December 17th, 2007, at 2:45 PM.

When I plumbed my house I put the hot water cylinder next to the boiler and the washing machine(s) in the ground floor utility room. The hot water run from tank to inlet, including hose, is less than 1 metre and about 2 metres for the two washers. The hot & cold supplies are both via the cold storage tank in the attic, so the fill at the same rate. Solar panels provide a significant amount of water heating. Having done all this, I now find that all new washers have cold fill and heat it with expensive electricity. Makes me look stupid doesn’t it. But it makes that A+ rating even more stupid. I wonder if I’m determined enough to retro fit a hot fill to a new washer…

Richard English
#6. January 1st, 2008, at 10:56 PM.

I have solar water heating which, on a sunny day gets the temperature up to well over 60 degrees centigrade and I would save a lot of money if I were able to use a hot-fill machine.

So who supplies them - both washing machines and dishwashers?

Richard English
#8. January 2nd, 2008, at 10:56 PM.

Many thanks. I did actually read the article and found it very useful - but most of the washing machines and dishwashers I’ve seen advertised do not seem to mention the question of fill and I assume therefore that they only have cold fill.

But I’ll take a look at LG.

Richard English
#10. January 5th, 2008, at 4:55 PM.

So far my research has not found any machines that have fill information listed and I infer from that there there are no dual-fill machines now on sale. The LG site certainly doesn’t mention dual fill.

I will keep searching.

gareth
#11. January 24th, 2008, at 8:54 PM.

I would prefer a cold fill only machine. I have a combination boiler, and the hot supply has to run for a long time for the water to be hot. Much longer than the fill time of the machine. This is wasting gas, heating water that will only sit in the pipes. The other problem with hot fill, is the pressure drop with a combination boiler to the hot supply. It is very annoying while having a shower, bath or washing up for the hot water to stop because the washing machine is at a fill cycle.

However my Gran lives in sheltered housing where hot water is free, but electricity is not. I have thought about using a shower valve to supply water at about 40 deg to the cold fill.

Richard English
#13. February 4th, 2008, at 4:52 PM.

I don’t know how the manufacturers arrange things but I’d have thought it would have been easy enough to arrange for a machine to draw from the hot water supply only to start with and keep that water in a holding tank. Only if the water were too hot would cold then be called to reduce the temperature to an appropriate level.

In the summer I get free hot water from my solar panels - up to near boiling on really sunny days - and it’s REALLY annoying that I then have to pay to heat up water using electricity just because no properly contrived mixing system has been installed.

The point made by others here about “preferring” cold fill only is really a bit of a red herring. Dual-fill machines can be filled with cold only and those who choose to use cold only can simply turn off the hot supply. Those of us who wish to do the opposite with single-fill machines have no such option.

Richard English
#16. February 10th, 2008, at 10:09 AM.

Many thanks for this.

I agree that the technology used in most washing machines right now seem not to be “bright” enough to know what to do if the hot water supply fails, but it should be perfectly possible to contrive such a thing by means of sensors and microprocessors that will measure the temperature of the water actually in the machine, and not simply admit an arbitrary amount from each source.

Back in the late 1950s my parents’ sloping front Hoover Keymatic managed the job perfectly. If there was not enough hot water it simply got cracking and heated up whatever water it had in its drum, turning occasionally to ensure that the temperature was even. It never “stalled” - not did the two Keymatics that I subsequently bought and used when I got married and only reluctantly replaced with a more “modern” machine when they were no longer made.

I did think about the holding tank space problem and dismissed it. As you say in various postings, the amount of water involved is only about a bowlful and there is plenty of spare space in the average machine - near the floor there is a volume that is more than sufficient. Bear in mind that the holding tank does not need to be any special shape, providing the water therein is circulated by a special pump; the cooling systems on cars are far more convoluted but they seem to keep their coolant at a constant temperature.

Your comment about the commercial aspects of manufacturers’ production is certainly very sensible. However, many local authorities are now giving substantial grants to assist in the installation of solar water heating and this, along with the ever-increasing “green” lobbying, will surely mean that there will be many more solar systems installed and many more people wanting to use their “free” hot water! A wonderful opportunity for a go-ahead manufacturer.

Richard English
#17. February 10th, 2008, at 10:22 AM.

Oh, and thank you for the note about LG. Unfortunately they only have a brochure download facility for one of their models - the direct drive washer - the steam washer and the washer/dryer have no further information available.

Richard English
#18. February 11th, 2008, at 4:51 PM.

After much to-ing and fro-ing with LG’s help-desk, they have finally admitted to me that they no longer make washer-dryers or dishwashers - so the question of what fill they used to use is academic.

Richard English
#20. February 14th, 2008, at 9:40 AM.

On a price comparison website I found, there was a listing of hot fill washing machines and the sites suggested that Electrolux still made them. The Electrolux site has no information so I emailed them a couple of days ago.

They have not yet replied.

Richard English
#22. February 14th, 2008, at 4:37 PM.

Actually my memory served me false! It was hotpoint that they suggested made hot fill machines and it is Hotpoint who’ve not answered me. Sorry Electrolux!

This is the site: http://www.dealtime.co.uk/xPP-washing_machines-hot_fill_washing_machines

Richard English
#24. February 15th, 2008, at 11:28 AM.

I agree. It would actually cause all sorts of problems since, typically, the cold supply is at a higher pressure than the hot and the cold would thus tend to simply run up into the hot system and eventually into the cistern.

I have no contacts in this field but I would suggest that it would be very easy to devise an after-market mixing device that would take water from both supplies (starting with the hot) into a small catchment tank and adjust the mix until it was at the temperature required for the wash. If there was insufficient hot water available then it would get the mix to the hottest it could and then admit it into the standard cold-fill connection, where it would be heated to temperature in the usual way.

Of course, there would need to be some kind of system to decide what temperature is needed and when, and at the simplest this could simply be a control that the operator used according to what was needed. At its most complex it could be a micro-processor that would adjust the temperature of successive fills to meet the differing demands of each cycle. I would imagine that these will be similar for different machines, although they will differ according to the programme selected. But such information is readily available, and, I feel quite sure, is these days stored on the machine’s micro-chip, a duplicate of which could readily be used to control the mixer unit.

It does seem ironic that the needs of those who have solar water heating - an increasing number - are not considered as a potential market by a normally responsive industry..

Paul Hadley
#25. February 20th, 2008, at 11:29 PM.

Like a growing band of truly green consumers I have a solar panel to heat my hot water. Even in February on a sunny day the tank can reach 60C.

So we have lots of FREE hot water created without burning CO2 at the power station.

Therefore it is essential we have a washing machine that can use the solar heated water:

1) It should have a setting to tell it there is solar heating.
2) It should fill until the temperature is at least 30C and pump out the initial cold water in the pipes.
3) Then it can mix hot and cold to get the correct temperature.

Its not rocket science, I am a software developer with a degree in electronics and I know that a solar friendly washing machine can be created. Give me a job and I’ll design it for you!

Richard English
#27. February 21st, 2008, at 1:36 PM.

Cold water detergent works OK (and cold-water detergents have been available in the UK for years as well as in the USA) but there are reasons why cold-water washing is not a completely satisfactory alternative to hot-water washing. One of the less commonly publicised, but nevertheless true, is that parasites and their eggs, present even in the most scrupulously clean of households, are not killed by detergent or by lower temperature washes. Near boiling water is needed to properly sterilise clothing.

Richard English
#29. February 23rd, 2008, at 11:03 AM.

I had a feeling that washing machines (and certainly dishwashers, to which my remarks apply equally) often have a pre-wash cycle that uses cold water. Ideal to draw the first fill from the solar storage and then, once the pre-wash had finished, to draw the (now hot) solar water.

I am quite sure that the job of choosing the correct supply could be done, as Paul Hadley (above) has suggested.

Richard English
#31. February 23rd, 2008, at 4:55 PM.

My first dishwasher ( a Balay) had hot and cold fill.

I suspect, too, that there will be a move back to pre-wash especially for things like nappies. Ecologically disposables are a very bad thing; financially an even worse thing.

I notice nobody’s comment on the hygiene aspect; cold water washes do not kill the eggs of the bugs that, even today, get into people’s clothes. Head lice are actually an increasing, not a decreasing problem.

Marie
#32. April 3rd, 2008, at 1:11 PM.

What about the time for a wash? One machine I was just researching said a normal 40 C wash would take 115 minutes. Doesn’t having hot water filling onto the machine save time. I have a tap next to the washing machine and run the hot tap before I put it on to empty out the cold water so that it’s a quicker wash.

Marie
#34. April 4th, 2008, at 7:40 PM.

I see that it is more economical/greener to have a wash setting that is longer, but I would like to have the choice to have a quicker main cycle, not just the ‘quick wash’ setting (I have young children!) as there are a lot of people in our household and time is an important factor for us.

The Americans who visit us cannot believe that it takes nearly 2 hours to do a small load of washing. I remind them of the fact that with energy available so cheaply in USA there is a lot of waste.

I agree with your comment in #28 that it’s good to have a choice.

Colin
#35. April 14th, 2008, at 9:27 PM.

My Bosch Precision (2000) has H&C fill. A 40 or 60 wash uses 0.24kwh and the soap drawer is hot after filling - and is 10m from hot water tank with 15mm pipe. A new machine is 1kwh + at 60 because it heats the water - what a waste. They do not deserve an A rating. On a boat with loads of hot water from the engine or solar heating I do not want to use elec to heat the water.
The LG machine mentioned earlier is virtually useless - it only uses the hot water if the wash temp is above the hot water temp. Crazy.
With all the computer power and fuzzy logic in these modern machines, surely they can blend the incoming water as required?? Clearly the logic of the manufacturers is extremely fuzzy.
I am looking at using a TMV and a double solenoid valve so that I can select blended water for the initial fill, then switch to cold for the rest. Or TMV valve with a hose through the soap drawer. Bosch have at least told me that an 6kg load requires an initial fill of 12 ltrs.

Richard English
#36. April 17th, 2008, at 10:42 AM.

Still no comments from the manufacturers, I see. Now, in sunny April, I have more hot water from the solar panels than I know what to do with - the cylinder was 80 degrees yesterday as the sun set - but I still have to use electricity to heat the water for my washing machine and dishwasher!

Richard English
#38. April 18th, 2008, at 8:43 AM.

As I have said all along, hot fill is really only important to those of us who have free hot water - and I have gallons of the stuff right now!

I see nobody’s commented on my point about the sterilising benefits of hot washes.

Richard English
#40. April 19th, 2008, at 2:36 PM.

The temperature needed to kill bacteria is 70 degrees centigrade. That’s far lower than boiling - and far higher than the low-temperature washes now in vogue.

Most parasites are destroyed at lower temperatures than bacteria - around 60 degrees.

Washing at 30 degrees relies far too much on the efficacy of the detergent as a lethal agent, to my mind.

Francis Xavier Holden
#41. June 25th, 2008, at 5:15 PM.

I’m in Australia. It would be 15 years since I have washed with hot water. Every household I know washes with cold water, in fact you have to go to a small section in the supermarket to buy hot water detergent.

Richard English
#42. July 4th, 2008, at 11:30 AM.

Does anyone have any comment to make about dishwashers? I can’t see cold-water dishwashing catching on - if only because the crocks would never dry!

My first dishwasher had hot and cold fill.

Richard English
#44. July 7th, 2008, at 10:14 AM.

Oh yes, the crocks rinse just fine - but I’m sure they would never dry if they were washed in cold water. The last rinse is in near-boiling water and that’s why the crocks are dry when the cycle’s finished.

As I said, my first dishwasher had hot and cold fill but my next one didn’t. The reason, I was told, was that introducing hot water at the outset tended to bake food residues onto the crockery. However, I don’t believe that since it would be simple enough to run an initial cycle with cold water and then introduce the hot.

Since I have as much free hot as I can use between April and September it grieves me to have to pay to warm up cold water using full-price electricity. But that point I have already made.

Dave
#45. July 9th, 2008, at 10:22 PM.

Hi Richard / all,
I’m with you Richard: I have more solar hot water than I can shake a stick at, a very short run of pipe to the Washer from the cylinder and was most of my laundry at 60 (+) degrees.

I posted on the other board a few days ago because my 25 year old Hoover washer is on it’s last legs. However, for dishwashing may I reccommend that you look at Miele. I bought my Miele d/w 18 months ago and one of the reasons for the choice of brand was that it accepts hot or cold water fill. I have it on hot and it has slashed the cycle time and my electricity bills! I notice that the instructions for the d/w specifically reccommed hot connection if you have solar water, so Miele are clearly thinking about this issue a littel bit….but sadly not enough to deal with the washing machine.

My mum had a Hoover the same as mine (we bought them at the same time in fact in the middle of the miners’ strike!). Sadly her’s finally gave up the ghost about a year ago and she bought a Miele washer because the blurb in the shop stated that the washer coudl be connected to hot fill but you had to bear in mind that it would then rinse in hot. We were both very angry when the machine arrived and there was a great big sticker on the back next to the valve staing “do not connect to hot water”. When we made enquiries it turned out that this was a very recent “design improvement”. We asked Miele if we could ignore it but they said that the warranty woudl be invalidated if we did, and since it comes with a 15 year guarantee as standard we didn’t want to risk that on a £700 machine.

I’m intrigued by the Hotpoint machines, and even a few new Hoovers, that have two valves on the back, in Hotpoint’s case marked “H” and “C”, but come with a Y adapter pre fitted. I want to know if I can buy one of these, take the Y off, and plumb in to Hot and Cold as before, but Hoover and Hotpoint won’t tell me, they just say that the machines are cold fill only. I’m not convinced. Washerhelp - have you any insider knowledge on these?

One final comment on washing efficiency. Mum’s washing in the Miele was noticeably less clean than in the Hoover until she started to use the “extra water” setting on every wash - strikes me that savings in water are outweighed by shorter life of clothes due to lower standards of cleaning. Even the Miele instruction book implies that using the extra water setting may improve results.
I may be only 40 (and 2 days!!) and therefore relatively young, but I’m getting increasingly suspicious of modern contraptions as time goes on ………………….

Richard English
#46. July 10th, 2008, at 12:01 PM.

Interestingly enough, I did an internet search and found that one manufacturer (Hotpoint) did come up as supplying H & C fill machines. But when I looked at the machine specifications there was nothing about the fill. Their website similarly was innocent of information about this aspect.

So I wrote to them; they didn’t have the courtesy to answer.

Sadly it’s not only modern design that is occasionally a retrograde step; it is also modern manners and business ethics. My standards for replying to emails and/or snailmails is that I always reply within 24 hours - even it’s to say no more than “Sorry, can’t help you”.

Dave
#47. July 10th, 2008, at 5:32 PM.

Yes, Richard, I am totally withyou on this too. I have had several very heated arguments with council officials, MP’s and even a couple of Government ministers on this point. Seems that no longer do manners maketh the man (or woman). Hmm……
I rang Hotpoint about the washers. The woman who took the call was reasonably pleasant, but when I asked about the machine and quoted the model number (WD421) of one I had seen in the shop she first of all said it was a discontinued model and that I must have the wrong model number, but when I said that I was quite sure but if she liked I’d go and take a pic and send it she then said that it might actually be a new model not on her list yet! Either way her answer to the H&C matter was a blanket “all our washer are cold fill only now”. Plain, simple but I remain unconvinced. I wish I could pop into the shop with a screwdriver and pop the lid off; I’d put a hefy gamble on finding that it is just a traditional hot and cold fill but that to “keep up wityh the jones’” they have stopped admitting it. I’d put money on the Hoover ones I’ve seen (some of the “Nextra” range) being the same, but again the lady on the phone at Merthyr Tydfil was polite, pleasant and effciient but simply said “none of our macines take hot water any more”. She even put me throught to someone she described as “an engineer” to double check, but he also just trotted out” we don’t do hot fill now”. The matter of the Hoover is rather academic for me anyway; we’ve always had *everything* Hoover for longer than I’ve been alive: I still use a Hoover Junior 375 of my grandparents and it works like a dream, I even have a local shop that still stocks the parts, but my last Dishwasher was Hoover and it was, sadly, a disaster. They’re all Candy with a Hoover badge and importeds from the Hoover / Candy works in Italy. So I’m afraid I would be very hesitant indeed to buy Hoover now. Maybe Washerhelp or some other reader knows a someone in the S/yorks area who will still fit me new drum bearings in my Electron 1100? Last quote I had was £120, but when I said I’d happily pay that the man said “actually, mate, we wouldn’t do it, not on a machine that age”, so I suspect the quote was artifically high to try to put me off.
Great to compare notes with you Richard, both on hot fill, and manners!
D

Richard English
#50. July 14th, 2008, at 1:42 PM.

On a related note, but one which will become increasingly important as fuel cost continue to soar, is the financial benefits that will increasingly accrue from the use of solar water heating.

I don’t use gas for cooking and since April I have used just under £2 worth of gas - which is the amount needed to keep the boiler pilot light running. British Gas clearly didn’t believe my reading and sent a man to check - but I was correct. I have had all the hot water I need (including that for baths and showers) without using any gas at all; the only fuel cost for water heating has been that of the electricity used to heat the water my dishwasher and washing machine.

You can understand why I would prefer hot-fill machines!

Richard English
#52. July 15th, 2008, at 7:14 PM.

The answer to your last question depends on the relative cost of the water. My cold water is metered and so I pay for any waste - but I suspect the cost of the wasted water is less than the cost of heating water with electricity - and I suspect that the cost of power will increase more rapidly than will the cost of water.

After all, water isn’t running out and fossil fuels are.

Richard English
#53. July 18th, 2008, at 1:57 PM.

PS to my last. With the announcement by British Gas today that gas prices (and obviously electricity prices) are set to increase by 60% “over the next few years” I think my belief, as expressed in my penultimate paragraph above, is vindicated.