Potentially restrictive practices in Miele washing machines

Washerhelp
#2. January 15th, 2009, at 9:15 PM.

This sort of thing was rife in the car industry until independent repairers got together and challenged it in court although the issue was more to do with independent garages wanting to deal with repairs under warranty which is different to just wanting to be able to fix something once out of warranty. It was ruled illegal and car manufacturers were forced to provide adequate technical information and sell specialist tools and equipment to independent repairers.

So far no such similar action has been organised in the white goods industry. Ultimately it has to be illegal to protect a product you manufacturer to such an extent that only yourself or your hand picked dealers can repair it. If that’s not restriction of trade I don’t know what is. However, this is possibly only a thin end of wedge situation at the moment.

I fully understand how a high quality manufacturer would want to try and control the standard of engineers repairing their product and would hate to assist potential cowboys to mess with their pride and joy but at the end of the day their customers deserve the option and right to let anyone they choose to repair their washing machine – including carrying out diy repairs if willing and able.

There are many reputable independent repairers who would charge £20, £30 or even £40 less labour to repair many straight forward faults but if by design many faults trigger an error code and disable the machine then without the means to reset the error code the customer would be forced to pay the manufacturer.

I do not have full details but hope people – especially engineers can add comments to clarify this situation fully.

Washerhelp
#4. January 16th, 2009, at 5:16 PM.

Mark: Not sure what your point is about Miele dealers and engineers. How reputable and trained they are isn’t in dispute. In fact I expect they are great and give excellent service. The problem is if consumers are forced to use them whether they want to or not. This would be restrictive practice and is not lawful as far as I am aware.

Your second statement is very sweeping and again, not sure what it means or how relevant it is to the topic. Miele products are best bought from whoever gives the best price and aftersales service. John Lewis have won many customer service awards by Which? and other consumer surveys, while independents generally beat manufacturers for quality, speed and value for money with regards to servicing in similar surveys. Independents however vary so much in standards it’s not possible to pit them all against one company.

The ISE range again is off topic and not even mentioned on this article John Lewis sell relatively few models compared to Currys and Comet etc. and they don’t even stock some makes of washing machine altogether. The fact that a washing machine isn’t sold at John Lewis doesn’t affect whether it’s a viable alternative or not. That’s decided by other factors.

Washerhelp
#6. January 17th, 2009, at 2:30 PM.

“There is nothing wrong with engineers specialising in brands, investing in training and putting parts on the shelf and then expecting that the manufacturer reciprocate some support for their commitment and investment is there”

You are talking about dealers I presume, not independents. Many independents also specialise in brands, invest in training and putting parts on the shelf and they do not deserve to be barred from repairing washing machines and have their trade restricted because the manufacturer has deliberately stopped them doing so by denying them access to special codes. Dealers deserve to flourish but so do the good independent repairers.

“You would not take a Mercedes to a Ford garage would you? or would you ??”

Why not if the Ford garage had a good reputation and wanted to offer basic repairs and servicing at a more competitive cost than the Mercedes dealer? What about the thousands of local garages that have no dealership but can offer a good cheaper service on minor repairs or routine servicing? Most Mercedes owners would prefer to go to a dealer and that’s fine but it shouldn’t be compulsory. Also, many Mercedes cars are old and bought second, third or fourth hand by non-rich people who need a cheaper source of servicing.

By law, Mercedes are no longer allowed to withhold technical information to prevent anyone else carrying out repairs on their cars. This is to protect car owners from monopolistic charges and to protect legitimate repair businesses from being frozen out.

“Thats how manufacturers maintain the quality of service to their customers. The ones that care that is !”

Manufacturers standards and quality of service can’t possibly be either enhanced or adversely affected by designing their products so only they and their dealers can repair them. They maintain their standards autonomously and are unaffected by independents. Their standards of service are their own affair and they live or die by them just like independents.

“Why would anyone spend a moment of their time attending a training course if the unskilled and uninformed who do not put a penny into the industry are at liberty to operate not on a level playing field, but with all the advantages of no overheads, no stock, no training and a ‘the-only-thing-that-matters-is-the-price’ mentality?”

I understand your defensiveness but you are wrong to try to imply that all the thousands of people repairing washing machines that aren’t Miele dealers are some sort of underclass scum. I must admit I too was guilty at one time of thinking I was one of the elite few who were honest and good and all my competition were cowboys. For many years I held that belief but I now realise it was arrogant and unfair. Whilst there are plenty of cowboys there are also plenty of good, hard working and honest independents who have many satisfied customers and do a good job.

If an independent has no spares and doesn’t know what he’s doing his business is unlikely to flourish. However, if he’s one of the good guys his business should not be restricted by restrictive practices.

“Is it any wonder the industry has gone to the dogs? From my 45 years experience it is precisely because manufacturers have pretty much done what you suggest and acted without cause or concern for their brands or their integrity in pursuit of short term profits from a stack it high, sell it cheap; uncaring culture.”

I respect your 45 years experience. The industry has gone to the dogs because of manufacturers making cheap disposable unrepairable washing machines and the public’s indifference and naive encouragement. This has nothing to do with the issue in discussion. In fact conversely if all the manufacturers had error codes that must be reset by the manufacturer then the culture you lament would be far worse.

Without the independents to repair cheap washing machines at a reasonable price then far more would be scrapped. Forcing consumers to use the manufacturer who charge on average £90 + parts to fix a £250 washing machine would do nothing but cause more to be scrapped. Few would consider paying £90 + parts to fix a £250 washer out of guarantee.

“From your perspective it is ‘restrictive practices’ while to me and to many it is a commercially sound principle on which to manage your business.”

You describe restrictive practices perfectly. Restrict trade to a minority in order to increase profit to the detriment of competitive businesses and to the general public who are forced to pay much higher prices.

“Most of the brands that took the route you advocate are derided by all and sundry for shocking products and shocking after sales service. Now, as few brands with any integrity or care are left; you would have them throw in their lot with the great tide of white unmarked vans that make up the bulk of our service ‘industry’?”

Again what you say there has nothing to do with not restricting who can repair their products. It’s their choice to start producing shocking products and shocking service and I share your contempt for them. If they additionally made it impossible for anyone but their own engineers (at £90 for the first half hour) to repair their rubbish how would that improve things? As I said earlier, that would only serve to make more of their rubbish unrepairable because repair prices would be even more “beyond economical repair”.

“Lets hope Miele maintain the position that they have held since 1963 and look after what they have got and continue to care about their products and their dealers.”

Agreed. I have nothing but respect for the quality of Miele products and service. However, I strongly believe they will flourish more if they help good independents to repair their products because it will bring repair charges down. Despite being so great, Miele are already starting to suffer from their washing machines becoming uneconomical to repair and I for one have started for the first time to consider whether they are worth recommending as highly as I have always done. I keep hearing reports of people being quoted repair prices so high that people are scrapping Miele washing machines that are nowhere near their expected and designed-for lifespan.

One engineer recently told me, “I just found it absolutely staggering that Miele’s under ten years old were being scrapped just because they need a simple part like a pump and, after it happens, guess what the customer will never buy again.”

I’ve also been told by another engineer that a customer of his scrapped a Miele at 5 years old because the main pcb failed and, “Miele quoted him about £500 to fix it”.

I’ve been told that Miele charge, “£99 plus VAT for the first 15 minutes and, I think, £20 or £25 per ¼ hour thereafter”. If you add these prices to the extremely expensive spare parts and the fact that many Miele washing machines are only between £500 – £700 we are now at a stage where some Miele washing machines – despite being considerably superior in quality – are starting to be scrapped well before their expected lifespan simply because it can cost almost as much to repair (or unacceptably close) than to replace. This is very bad. Another repairer tells me a washer dryer door seal is £140 and an older model is priced at £160. Miele charging £99 for the first 15 mins plus £20 for next 15 mins + £140 = £249 to replace a door seal when they sell a new machine at £500 is little better than Indesit engineers charging £99 + £45 = £144 to repair a £260 washer. The Miele owner still has a better machine and better expectations of the machine keeping running but psychologically it’s still around half the cost of a replacement machine and psychologically there’s still the risk of an further fault meaning even more expensive repairs. This is why many will be tempted to scrap the machine unless repairs are more reasonable.

In my opinion Miele repair prices need to fall substantially or Miele will decline as people realise they’ve invested more money in a better machine but it’s still susceptible to being too expensive to repair (or at least be unacceptably close) when they were told it’s designed to last at least 20 years. Many may decide to go back to the cheaper brands next time. Miele washing machines could be designed to last 100 years but still be scrapped after 10 if it can’t be repaired at a reasonable cost and if the repair cost is too close to the replacement cost. In such a case they are little better than a Siemens or AEG purchase.

I accept that Miele are so well made that hopefully repairs will be fewer and many people will get many years before a breakdown. Many people also get 5 or 10 year warranty but even with a 10 year warranty Miele owners should expect another 10 years life for their washer but if the motor or pcb fails at 10 years + and it’s going to cost £500 or more to fix which is nearly as much as they paid for it many will decide it’s not worth repairing.

Miele can’t afford to have their washing machines scrapped well before 20 years due to them being too expensive to repair. Miele should be above that and need to be so much better than the other throwaway rubbish to survive in their niche.

“Gaining a toe hold in someone elses business by undercutting them is the easiest game in the world; any plank can do it. It does not mean that is the right way to run the industry for the benefit of customers. There is more to it than you present in your piece above.”

Gaining a toe hold in someone else’s business by undercutting them is fundamentally how business has always worked and always will. It’s up to the market, and consumers to decide if the business doing it cheaper is best or is cheaper at an unacceptable cost in quality or not. Again this is straying onto wider topics and it’s only relevant to restrictive practices because it shows how you advocate restricting other businesses that are competing with you by methods such as the error code monopoly by Miele.

“You also failed to mention Miele’s 10 year warranty and the absence of any requirement for a charged visit throughout that period.”

I didn’t mention it because it’s irrelevant. Once out of guarantee, how ever long or short that is (and 10 year warranties are only on restricted models and for restricted promotional periods and don’t cover wear and tear) a consumer has a legal and moral right to be able to choose who they want to repair it. They even have the right to be able to repair it themselves if they are capable.

If any manufacturer designs a product that forces a consumer to have to pay only themselves or their chosen dealers to carry out repairs they are restricting consumer choice in their own interests and restricting competing trade, which is not legal as far as I’m aware.

Washerhelp
#8. January 17th, 2009, at 3:43 PM.

Anonymous: It’s called the free market. You are trying to justify restrictive practices outlawed by government by pretending it’s in the interest of the people being exploited by monopolistic prices and restriction of choice. Feigning concern for the public being ripped off by cowboys is disingenuous.

Monopolies are seen as such a threat that government created the Competition Commission (formerly the Monopoly and mergers commission) who say-

“The Competition Commission (CC) is one of the independent public bodies which help ensure healthy competition between companies in the UK for the benefit of companies, customers and the economy.

We investigate and address issues of concern in three areas:

• In mergers – when larger companies will gain more than 25% market share and where a merger appears likely to lead to a substantial lessening of competition in one or more markets in the UK.

• In markets – when it appears that competition may be being prevented, distorted or restricted in a particular market.

• In regulated sectors where aspects of the regulatory system may not be operating effectively or to address certain categories of dispute between regulators and regulated companies.”

You stated, “unfortunately because the industry is unregulated neither a customer or Miele can choose between those engineers who are good and those who are bad.”

So having understood that, how can you justify punishing all the good engineers with a blanket restriction of everyone’s trade? By that definition there would be no repairers for any product, and all companies would have their own monopoly on repairs.

Washerhelp
#10. January 17th, 2009, at 8:00 PM.

I don’t think there’s much point continuing with this Mark so this is my last response until someone else contributes. You clearly have blinkers on because you have a vested interest. People can read both our comments and make their own mind up.

I sympathise with your anger because like me you have been around long enough to see the repair industry virtually destroyed but you are blaming the wrong thing. This discussion is purely about one thing only and this is that Miele now appear to be making washing machines that must be repaired only by their own engineers or dealers when error codes are triggered. This is a recent development and your business has presumably had many problems and gripes going back decades.

When you say, “There is no need to act on anything you complain about because customers already have the choice you say they should have.” it puzzles me as to whether you have even read the article and my comments properly. The whole article points out that customers now have no choice but to go to Miele or one of their dealers when error codes are triggered. They cannot fix it themselves and they cannot use their local repairman.

I haven’t complained as you put it, I’ve pointed out important information that the public would not otherwise find out until after a purchase so they can use it to help make informed decisions. I don’t have a vested interest because I do not do repairs and I do not sell washing machines. My interest lies only in giving factual information in a fair and balanced way to try and help consumers make informed purchasing decisions.

If you read what I have written about Miele and my Miele washing machine reviews you will see I am far from a Miele-basher and have convinced hundreds of people to buy Miele when they would not have done so before. I know this because I receive many emails saying they’d bought one only after reading my review, many say they’d never really even heard of Miele before. This is precisely why I feel morally obliged to point out this new development which means they have even less chance of anyone but Miele to do any repairs than I had previously advised about.

Washerhelp
#14. January 21st, 2009, at 4:24 PM.

Mark: Thanks for your ongoing contribution. As long as we keep it totally on topic we will hopefully leave a thread that people can read and gain something from. We all need to try and be more concise and to refrain from repeating points already made.

When you say, “There are actually very few faults that fall into this category..” that’s the kind of clarification I was after to help make sure all facts are known. People can decide for themselves if that’s acceptable or not. However, the inescapable concern is that this is the thin end of the wedge and if a restrictive practice only applies to some faults it’s still restrictive practice. If what you are saying is that Miele can only maintain certain advancements on technology and design by only having their own people deal with certain repairs they are straying into dodgy territory.

I accept this is an important issue to you but no one can argue that it isn’t wrong because even the government have legislated against such practices which they say “damages companies, competition, and the economy”. Your argument is that you feel it is a good idea and justified, but unfortunately the argument is based soley on the fact that you personally benefit from it and that you are wrongly convinced that all engineers except Miele engineers are useless cowboys which is not a strong position. I am glad you’ve contributed your points though.

You also said -

“The up and coming scenario that it’s not that far away when your quality machine will be wired into the net and potentially a manufacturer will know about a fault before you have time to report it because you will be on there system from day one with your warranty. This is tomorrows world; and there is nothing the ‘independent’ can do about it.

You raise an interesting scenario which I could debate on but need to keep to the relevance of restrictive practices. As manufacturers become more sophisticated and technology advances it may be that
they can do this sort of thing but government and the public will need to decide if this comes at the cost of restricting competition and creating monopolies. I for one wouldn’t want someone contacting me saying there’s a fault on my washer and I need to pay them over £100 plus parts to fix it when I have no symptoms at all! I think most people would say no thanks I’ll wait until I have a problem.

Mark: “You have to understand that in order to differentiate itself, the quality brands have to offer ‘added value’ that set them apart. If they do not, nobody will buy them.”

Miele can’t offer added value by forcing their customers to use only Miele engineers who need to charge twice as much as some other decent independent engineers. They offer higher quality at a premium price for the few that can afford them. Their “value” has nothing to do with their attempts to restrict competition. Forcing their customers to use only Miele people and making it impossible (by deliberate design) to use cheaper legitimate (and as Ken pointed out) fully qualified competing engineers is in their interests only.

Anyone buying a Miele washing machine has the perfect right to use Miele or Miele dealers who will offer excellent service but at a premium price. Miele should not have the arrogance to pretend they are protecting their customers from cowboys when they try to restrict their competition who in many cases can offer just as good a service at cheaper prices – especially if they have proper technical information. Any Miele owner finding the cheaper engineers were unacceptably bad would never use them again and probably use a Miele dealer next time, that’s how it works.

I fully understand why Miele and yourself and other dealers would want to stop anyone else from ever touching a Miele product. It’s perfectly understandable to want to try and protect your own interests. The competition commission is set up precisely to police and restrict these practices because they recognise that the public and the economy must have protection to prevent thousands of monopolies.

Consumer choice is the foundation of a healthy economy and it’s essential to keep prices down and under constant pressure.

Here are some rhetorical questions – How much do you think a Miele washing machine would cost if Miele were the only company making washing machines in the world? How much labour would you charge if you were the only company doing repairs for 100 miles?

Some of your other points about the difficulties in providing high quality service I have sympathy with but Miele and yourself operate in a so-called free economy subject to market forces. I greatly admire what Miele are doing by being one of the few companies still making proper washing machines I really do. I fully understand how expensive it is to produce high quality products and high quality repair service. However, if the general public won’t pay the premium prices needed to support such high standards then the business model fails. If the public prefer to take risks and use cheaper companies or buy cheaper washers that’s market forces at work and they get what they deserve.

I’ve spent 9 years on Washerhelp trying to persuade consumers they are wrong to keep buying rubbish washing machines and should spend more on a proper washing machine, and whilst having a big effect I’m sure, most people continue to buy the rubbish instead. That’s their choice – and often they just can’t afford anything but the rubbish. We can’t force them. Maybe we could destroy all the competition so only Miele make washing machines, then we could force everyone wanting a washing machine to pay £1000 for the basic model? That would work and we’d be doing them a favour by protecting them from all the cowboy manufacturers selling inferior washing machines. I’m sure they’d be grateful

Washerhelp
#15. January 21st, 2009, at 6:00 PM.

Mark: I wish you wouldn’t write so much as it means I have to ignore contentious points or reply to them all which makes my replies even longer

Mark said: As much as ‘independent’ engineers would like to think otherwise, the majority of customers of quality brands do not have any worries about the cost of service; it is an artificial concern being aired by those here who purport to be ‘free marketeers’.

If the majority of customers of quality brands do not have any worries about the cost of service then this whole subject isn’t remotely threatening to you and purely academic to you. I hope you aren’t arguing just for the sake of it

I disagree entirely with the claim. Miele washing machines start at around £555 and are affordable to most people as long as they value quality over features. I’ve personally received many emails from people saying they have never bought a Miele washing machine before and always bought Hoover, Hotpoint, Indesit etc but after reading my glowing reviews of them ( Miele overview ) they have decided to take my advice and invest money in a Miele.

Some though have described how it was tough to spend that much or even afford that much. Miele customers are not all rich people who don’t care about costs, and many may find if any repairs are required out of guarantee they may not be able to afford to pay Miele labour prices. With the current economic climate set to get very much worse even relatively well off customers are going to need to see if they can cut down on repair costs and should have the ability to do that if that’s what they want/need to do.

It is precisely with these people in mind that I believed it necessary to as well as commending Miele quality to also explain that buying a Miele these days could mean committing to using only Miele engineers for the life of the machine or at least for some specific faults. These people should know this information.

Washerhelp
#16. January 21st, 2009, at 6:32 PM.

Apologies to all for writing at such length and 3 consecutive comments. There were too many points raised to fit in one reply so I thought splitting them up might help. I’m hoping for some comments from other engineers and consumers too.

Mark said: “But let us examine their credentials for a moment. Not so many years ago a very Big retailer called John Lewis turned round to the manufacturers and said; ‘we are sick of being held to our never knowingly undersold price promise; it means we cannot sustain our artificially high prices as the internet are always undercutting us, do something about it’.

The response was that Electrolux gave us the John Lewis own brand and Miele gave John Lewis there own models. Now when a customer goes into John Lewis they are free to push their own unique models in the comfort that nobody will be able to undercut that model, nor will they ever have to stand by the ‘Never Knowingly Undersold’ lie. I think that is deceitful.

Do we hear a word of complaint on these columns about this kind of restrictive trading ? No we dont; we have a recommendation of their wares and their service.

You are right to criticise this practice, though you are wrong to blame either John Lewis or the Internet and to say that I would never criticise it. This practice is very old and easily pre dates the Internet and practised by virtually all the main retailers including Comet and Currys. In the 80s I bought a Matsui graphic equaliser for my hi fi which I believe is a Currys own brand with a deliberately Japanese-sounding name to imply quality as Japan had a high reputation for hi fi products.

They all do it and have done for decades. The practice is rife and muddies the waters to the detriment of consumers and I have spoken out against it too.

Contrary to your assumption, I am not someone with a vested interest complaining about things for my own benefit. I have a invested interest only in being seen as fair, balanced and with no vested interest. I don’t claim never to be wrong or never to have made a mistake, only that I try to write objectively and with informing the general public to the best of my ability as a goal. In return I hope to earn money through enough satisfied users visiting my sites to make low key but highly relevant advertisements work.

There are several places where I’ve criticised the exclusive models practice. Here is a quote from my replies to just one thread on one of my Forum posts

“John Lewis do currently stock the W 3740, but bizarrely they are selling it at a considerably higher price than places like currys and Comet. Instead, they have priced their own exclusive Miele washing machine to compete with the W 3740 Miele Paragon Plus Washing Machine.

I’m not keen on “exclusives” although this is common amongst most of the big retailers including Currys and Comet. The thing I dislike about products that are exclusive to one retailer is that you can’t compare prices because – the model is exclusive to them. They simply confuse the issue for customers and make it much harder for them to make buying decisions.

I understand why retailers do it (although only the biggest, most powerful retailers can cajole manufacturers in to producing them). To be fair to retailers, if they simply reduce the price of a specific model in an attempt to gain an edge over competitors, all the competitors do is match the price. The initiative can so easily be lost. Whereas if they get the manufacturer to produce a specific model for them they can sell it cheaper and no one can match the price.

It’s clever, but ultimately it just muddies the waters for customers and can even be abused by selling a product – not cheaper – but even slightly more expensive, or less specified, safe in the knowledge that the products cannot be easily compared. Washing machines exclusive to John Lewis are often slightly higher spec though and sometimes even have things like lower energy costs so at least they try to create something different..”

The above quote is balanced in that it criticises the practice but also tries to see it from their point of view. People can then make up their own minds about it.

Washerhelp
#18. January 22nd, 2009, at 11:05 AM.

Thanks Mark. I’m glad we’ve been able to discuss opposing views respectfully.

However, can you not see the irony and contradiction in your opening statement?

Mark said: “Ultimately John Lewis use their position to control the market to their advantage. Shame its allowed to happen! .. I would prefer within reason that companies be given leave to protect their business interests.”

I keep trying to end our actual discussion so others can join in but you keep writing provocative stuff that’s hard to leave unchallenged – you are very good at that

You said: “I personally know of many cases that would make your hair curl regarding ‘unqualified engineers’ working on products from many manufactures which are at best dodgy and at worst dishonest.”

I probably know just as many. That’s why the trading standards exist. It’s their job to police the cowboys – not manufacturers. I can see why you agree with Miele (and other manufacturers are also making it harder for independents to get technical information) but unfortunately it’s against regulations to protect your own business to the detriment of restricting free trade. Bizarrely this is the very thing you are complaining about with exclusive models, which helps protect major retailers interests to the detriment of fair competition.

You cannot say that because there are cowboys you have the right to damage all legitimate repairer’s trade. If you are implying all engineers that aren’t Miele dealers or Miele engineers are scummy cowboys then at least say it.

Washerhelp
#21. January 23rd, 2009, at 12:22 PM.

Mark: I can’t keep going round in circles on this with you. I can’t follow your logic any more. An example of which is your last statement, “You will never get me to agree that a jack of all trades is better than the master of one”. I couldn’t agree more with that statement so it’s clearly nothing to do with any argument I’ve put forward.

I will try to write a separate article on the subject of exclusive models though. All the major retailers have exclusive models for most major products. You highlight John Lewis presumably because of their never knowingly undersold boast, which I agree can’t be applied to exclusive models because you cannot buy the model elsewhere.

However, as long as a product is clearly labelled as an exclusive model common sense should inform everyone that it is only available at this store – so obviously it can’t be price-compared. Likewise no one should expect to buy a John Lewis exclusive brand of washing machine anywhere else. The John Lewis brand competes fairly with all other brands in an open market including the Zanussi models they are based on. They offer 3 year guarantees and some extra features. Customers comparing and researching can decide if the price they are sold at is good value or not.

Watch out for the topic and feel free to add your thoughts on it.

Meanwhile, trying to keep things on topic – how would you feel if you bought a John Lewis washing machine and as an engineer wanted to fix it yourself when if developed a fault – only to find it triggered an error code. You could work out what the problem was and cure the fault but the washer wouldn’t work until you’d paid John Lewis £99 to come and reset it? Their excuse could be the same as yours, that they are trying to stop cowboys fixing their washing machines which carry their well respected name and have a hidden agenda of trying to stop all decent engineers fixing them too because they can do it cheaper than them.

The same question could apply to your Sony TV, your car, your PC, everything you own in fact, and all manufacturers could use the same excuse. The result would be all your repair costs for every product would no longer be subject to any competition and rise considerably. I can’t see how you could possibly argue this would be acceptable to you as no one would believe you. You can only argue that it shouldn’t be allowed – apart from with Miele because you personally benefit. Sorry, but that position is indefensible.

You said it’s up to customers to decide if it’s acceptable or not but that is precisely why I wrote the article in the first place so that customers know what they are getting. They can then make an informed choice as to whether or not that’s acceptable to them. The complication is that the government believe restricting free trade is bad for the economy, so even if a small percentage of rich people are happy with the arrangement the government can stop it.

Washerhelp
#24. January 25th, 2009, at 7:30 PM.

Yes, thanks Ken, Miele have been running their own extended warranty promotions for about a year or so now. I don’t think Miele’s 5 and 10 year extended “cover” promotions could be affected by anyone else carrying out repairs out of the warranty. They are a promotional tool designed to maintain their image as a premium brand at a premium price and are used instead of price reductions. It’s perfectly legitimate for them to do that and I understand why they do but it would be bizarre to think that their premium brand image also benefits by keeping repairs also at premium prices.

Phil made some excellent points which back up our words but carry weight because they are from a consumer. As he agreed, once purchased, a product is the property of the customer and they have the right to do whatever they want with it including stripping it down and attempting to fix it themselves. They also have the right to let their next door neighbour have a look at it, a trusted local repairer who may have a great reputation, or even take a gamble on ending up with a cowboy.

To me, the ideal situation would be for Miele to maintain their premium quality and price but seek to reduce the extremely high cost of repairing them out of warranty by negotiating with and assisting reputable independent repairers, and by making the spares cheaper. I’m not sure Miele can survive only appealing to the wealthy but they are welcome to try if that’s what they want. If they price their basic models at around £550 though they are presumably hoping to increase sales to more ordinary consumers.

I would have thought they cannot afford to allow a situation where some of their £550 washing machines, which they proudly boast are designed to last at least 20 years start lasting only 5 to 10 years because the customer is quoted crazy prices to repair it. It may be that they are so reliable in general that very few Miele washing machines face this dilemma but according to my sources this is now starting to happen. Miele must be aware it doesn’t take many examples of dissatisfied customers spreading the word that they invested in the best but it lasted no longer than their previous Hoover or Hotpoint to undermine their image.

I bring such points up because I respect the Miele brand and their commitment to quality. Repairs are always going to cost more because of the higher quality of the spares and even the lack of economy of scale due to selling much less of them. But I just can’t see how a premium quality brand would need to also be extremely expensive to repair to maintain a brand image – especially if replacing one part can cost almost as much as a new basic Miele.

In the interests of fairness, there are other examples of restrictive practices by other manufacturers which may or may not deserve their own topic. I would appreciate them being mentioned too if anyone in the trade has legitimate examples.

Washerhelp
#28. January 27th, 2009, at 12:30 PM.

Hello Mark: I deleted your other response, which was merely a long promotion for Miele products and not remotely related to the subject of whether or not Miele are restricting free trade by forcing customers to use their own engineers when certain error codes occur. Apologies to Kenneth who quoted a few of them in his replies but I need to keep this discussion focussed on the original topic.

Here is a response to your on topic comment above -

Andy do you actually have any evidence for what is alleged in the original article you publicised. Have you asked Miele in the interests of impartiality and balance to respond to the source of your concerns ?

I don’t see my article as alleging anything. That’s an emotive word implying unsubstantiated accusations. My article is fair and balanced and it starts and finishes by restating my opinion that Miele washing machines are one of the best.

It also says, “If any of the information in this article is incorrect please let me know”. And in the interests of fairness I also said, “It should be noted that other manufacturers are also increasingly making it difficult for independent repairers” and I mention this fact again in one of my subsequent comments. (Kenneth has mentioned some of their names in his comment above)

I would be happy for Miele to comment but it’s hard to imagine how it could be defended really.

Google brings up only three references to this subject; yours, and Kenneth Watt’s (Kwatt?) whos earliest recorded post is dated march 2008 on his own site (ukwhitegoods.co.uk). Ken again repeats the accusation in a later forum discussion on moneysavingexpert.com.

The issue isn’t how many people highlight it. It’s is it true or not, and should consumers know before making purchasing decisions or not?

You use the word, “accusation”. Are you now saying it’s totally untrue? As you’ve spent so long in the debate tying to defend the practice you can’t now imply it isn’t even true by saying it’s only an accusation.

In both instances the ISE model ISE10 is proposed by Ken as a suitable ‘unrestricted’ alternative to the Miele model discussed; and just who is it that is behind the ISE brand in the UK? I am sure you will name them for the benefit of your readers.

It seems the ‘vested interests’ I stand accused of cut all ways; and I hope you will not mind making your readers aware of that.

I think I’ve made clear I don’t have any vested interests other than to be seen as having no vested interests. My entire sites depend on my reputation for balance, fairness and a resource that can be trusted. I accept your point that Ken is open to the vested interest smear but he has never failed to reveal his interests in all the articles and forum debates I’ve seen of his.

Also, his points cannot be undermined by having a vested interest if they are accurate and fair. Only a fool would totally dismiss warnings or information with the excuse that the one giving the message has some vested interest – although conversely, only a fool would accept words at face value if someone appears to have a vested interest too.

In both instances the ISE model ISE10 is proposed by Ken as a suitable ‘unrestricted’ alternative to the Miele model discussed; and just who is it that is behind the ISE brand in the UK? I am sure you will name them for the benefit of your readers.

I can confirm that the ISE10 is “a suitable ‘unrestricted’ alternative to the Miele”. The promise of spare parts at reasonable prices, unrestricted access to technical information and support for independent engineers and even diy repairers is revolutionary.

Currently it’s only one model and therefore competes only with similarly priced Miele machines. I also think on a direct comparison Miele washing machines still win on sheer build quality comparison but the ISE10 is close enough to count and good enough for them to give even commercial users a full 3 year guarantee.

The concept is a direct threat to Miele because it is a premium quality product and the people behind it aspire to making it the most repairable washing machine available and want to get back to the good old days when products lasted decades because their owners could always get them repaired quickly and at fair, reasonable prices.

In these environmental and economic times it is potentially cutting edge philosophy but it remains to be seen whether or not the public will support it enough. They certainly should though in my opinion because products being repairable at reasonable prices is essential for the future and highly desirable. In the past Miele have relied on the sheer quality of their products but I believe they need to seriously look at making them a lot more reasonably priced to repair and relinquishing some control. If they do they will surely be unbeatable.

I’ve always accepted that a quality product inevitably costs more to repair, but if it is true that Miele can charge £160 for a door seal which is 3 times the cost of a normal decent quality door seal but in no way 3 times better quality, and can quote £500 to replace a main PC board they are now in serious danger of seeing some of their washers being scrapped due to being beyond economical repair many years before their 20 year life expectancy. This may only happen to a minority of machines but it totally undermines the point of investing in a high quality brand and in my opinion seriously damages Miele’s reputation.

I agree with you that many of these figures are anecdotal as I have not found out by personal experience. I’ve heard the information from sources I trust but I was hoping some engineers would quote these examples directly themselves.

The only problem with the ISE10 is that it costs £800 with a 10 year warranty but then I know I won’t get any argument from you that quality product and quality service costs a lot of money

I’m also hoping that you will come up with some clear examples of actual restrictions in practice as opposed to the hearsay you have seen fit to publish. Otherwise this is in danger of coming over as nothing more than a smeer campaign.

You want me to come up with more examples? This is not a Miele-bashing campaign!

The article highlighted the only example I needed to highlight, that is that most Miele washing machines now produce error codes which can only be reset by Miele engineers or dealers which restricts fair trade and competition. You have spent many hours defending this practice as being “necessary”, but now you’ve changed tactics to try and call them accusations implying it was never true.

Washerhelp
#30. January 27th, 2009, at 2:48 PM.

Hello Mark. I’m sorry about not accepting your other post. It’s the first and only time I’ve ever done it on this Blog. I could only see a long post about Miele’s customer service and technological advances. This thread is already bogged down with very lengthy comments which I fear most people will not be bothered to follow. It doesn’t matter how great Miele are, or how fantastic their service or technical advancement is, it has nothing to do with the legitimacy of restricting customer choice and other competition. Absolutely nothing.

A final comment from me before unlocking horns with you and waiting for others to contribute, in response to your comment -

“Miele aren’t the only ones that do this, Indesit Company are at it as well now with their various brands, Hotpoint, Indesit, Ariston, Cannon etc. and even extending electrionic resets etc. to ovens.”

Well as long as thats made clear! which it was’nt.

That was made clear in my original article when I said – “It should be noted that other manufacturers are increasingly making it difficult for independent repairers (who routinely beat manufacturers in Which? surveys for customer service and customer satisfaction) to get technical information but Miele seem to be tightening a grip they’ve always held.”

I also mentioned it at least once more in one of my additional comments #24 where I said – “In the interests of fairness, there are other examples of restrictive practices by other manufacturers which may or may not deserve their own topic”.

It appeared that Miele were being singled out for special attention; but what you are actually saying is that it will soon be an industry norm.”

I also said in one of the first comments, “This sort of thing was rife in the car industry until independent repairers got together and challenged it in court. It was ruled illegal, and car manufacturers were forced to provide adequate technical information and sell specialist tools and equipment to independent repairers.”

Therefore, the fact that others are doing it has no bearing on whether a: it is right and b: it is legal and c: it will eventually be stopped. In fact the irony of your comment is that the more it becomes “an industry norm” the more likely it will be to be ruled illegal and stopped.

Washerhelp
#33. January 29th, 2009, at 5:47 PM.

I’ve said all I need to say Mark. Sorry, I don’t think there’s any point in me continually repeating the same arguments.

You’ve got the wrong end of the stick on one point though which I need to clarify. No one’s said manufacturers should provide public access to technical information, only to engineers. The public have a right to try to fix their own machine if so inclined and capable – not get technical support. We just meant that being forced to pay Miele to reset the machine infringes on that right.

Washerhelp
#35. March 24th, 2009, at 12:00 PM.

Hello Mark T: The whole premise on which I have enthusiastically recommended Miele washing machines is that they are of such high quality that they should last a good 20 years. If you have a Miele washing machine that you are happy with and it is only 10 years old, which needs a new motor then the theory is that it should be worth investing in a new motor as the machine is only halfway through it’s potential lifespan.

Have you had a quote, or are you just assuming that it is not worth repairing? My gut instinct is that it should be worth repairing because it is a high-quality product. There is little point in buying a high-quality washing machine if you aren’t prepared to invest in repairs to keep it running as long as it is designed to last. However, the unavoidable caveat with this advice is that the cost of replacing the motor needs to be reasonable compared with the cost of buying another Miele washing machine, otherwise your Miele washing machine would then be, “beyond economical repair” which as I have hinted at in this article and subsequent comments would be very bad for Miele.

The irritating feature you mentioned is present on virtually all washing machines because it is cheaper to use a basic bimetal door interlock instead of something more sophisticated.

Washerhelp
#37. March 24th, 2009, at 3:16 PM.

To make a fair judgement you need to compare how much it costs to repair with how much it costs to replace it with another Miele of similar specifications.

But if you could buy a brand new Miele with a 5 year guarantee for around that price you might still prefer it to fixing your current Miele even if your current one is say £750 to replace.

It’s not for an engineer to decide if a washing machine is beyond economical repair its for the customer. You should have been given a quote for a replacement motor surely?

Washerhelp
#39. March 25th, 2009, at 1:30 PM.

Most people these days have a psychological problem with spending £400 to replace one part on a washing machine when they could buy a new equivalent (or near equivalent) complete with a new guarantee on all parts (in this case at least 2 years) for £550. It is just too much of a gamble for most people. In your case you are being asked to pay 73% of the cost of a new machine simply to replace one part. (Don’t forget what I said though about comparing like for like if your model is a higher spec model which might cost (say) £750 to replace with the same specs as this would reduce the percentage to 53%.

With the majority of washing machines and for the majority of people it’s likely to be a no-brainer – the washing machine would be seen as being uneconomical to repair and would be scrapped. With a Miele washing machine of 10 years though it should be less of a gamble because it’s supposed to last 20 years and could therefore give another 10 years service. It’s a quality washing machine so the fears of something else breaking down soon after are diminished but cannot be ruled out.

The problem is these repair prices are now entering the same territory that mere ordinary washing machines have occupied for many years and I’ve always scorned. In the 90s we used to repair Hoover washing machines costing £365 with motors costing £89 (in the days when you could replace the main armature). This equated to just under 25% of the replacement cost, or even if you compare with the replacement cost of Hoover’s entry model at £250 it was still only 36%. Even then it wasn’t uncommon for people to prefer to buy a new one instead but the majority of people would have the repair done with relative confidence.

As I pointed out as a secondary concern in this article, some Miele washing machines are now being scrapped well before their proclaimed lifespan because their owners are being quoted £400 and £500 to replace one part when they can buy a brand new Miele with at least 2 year guarantee for not much more. I still find this shocking. I don’t know if Miele see this as a problem but if a significant percentage of these customers do not buy another Miele washing machine and tell others that it only lasted several years and no longer than their last AEG, Siemens or Bosch etc. then maybe people will start to think there’s no point investing in a Miele.

The whole point of a Miele is that it is superior in build quality, it costs a lot more (in most cases) than their competitors but at least they last 20 years and so work out a good investment in the long term. If this is starting to be undermined because of the high cost of repairs verses the relatively low cost of a replacement there will be consequences eventually.

If these ratios are transposed to other products you can see how crazy they are. If you bought a £14,000 car and halfway through its expected lifespan it needed a repair and you were quoted £10,220 (73%) what would you do? Or at the other end of the scale if you had an £80 printer and were quoted £58.40 what would you do?

If you’d bought a £300 Servis washing machine and were quoted £219 for a new motor (this is a fairly accurate set of figures) it would be equally outrageous but at least I could imply it serves you right for not buying a better quality washing machine.

Please let us know what you decide to do. As you say it’s a tough call.

Washerhelp
#43. March 26th, 2009, at 1:33 PM.

Mark: “Only this week I have knowledge of two Miele machines ‘written off’ as uneconomical to repair because of one = electronic and two = motor by an independent engineer… In both cases the machines have been repaired by an authorised independent repairer (not Miele) at a fraction of the cost quoted; by repairing the true fault as opposed to the one invented because the repairer had not a clue of what he was looking at.”

This does happen, the reason I don’t believe it’s “rife” though is that most independents don’t touch Miele repairs as they can’t get technical information or the codes to reset the error codes. Add to this the lack of a decent trade discount on spares and the fact that most independent trade spares suppliers hardly stock any Miele spares (because they can’t get a decent trade markup too?) And finally the fact that there’s not a great demand for repairs because Miele are a relatively obscure brand in the big scheme of things and are generally very reliable products – and it all equates to a situation where most independents just shrug their shoulders and accept that Miele products are not something worth getting involved in. This is exactly the situation desired by Miele, as confirmed by yourself.

There will always be some people who will have a bash though, and without technical information some may be unable to diagnose some faults properly. Some others may just be not up to the job and wouldn’t be able to diagnose properly even with technical information. But there’s never an excuse for inventing a fault and telling a customer it isn’t worth repairing just to get out of admitting you don’t know what the fault is or to try and sell another machine. In that I very much agree. Having said that, you can’t know if the misdiagnosis was fraudulent as you claim, or just incompetent or a genuine best guess.

However, the issue being discussed in recent comments was the cost of replacing a motor on a 10 year old Miele washing machine compared with £550 for a new Miele causing another customer to scrap a Miele way before it should be scrapped. Your comment is only really speculating that in some cases an engineer may have been mistaken in advising a motor is required. I accept this can happen but it also happens with all makes of machine due to a minority of incompetents or cowboys.

So we agree that some cases of Miele’s being scrapped could be due to misdiagnosis, but unless you can come back and say a motor for a 10 year old Miele washer would cost much less than the £400 – £500 fitted and that Miele washing machines never need a new motor or PCB etc. then all the issues recently discussed are still valid. The only thing in question is how many of the cases where Miele’s have been scrapped are due to being too expensive to repair (which is impossible to know) – and not that Miele’s are are not starting to get scrapped because of very high repair quotes and when they are no where near their proclaimed 20 year life span.

I can see your point that the amount of Miele’s being scrapped could be unfairly distorted because of misdiagnosis’ but it’s something there are no figures for and you can only speculate on. As I said, few independents bother looking at Miele’s any more so I feel it’s not likely to be affected as much as you claim yet I acknowledge you make a valid point.

I also agree that Miele owners should seriously consider only using Miele engineers or a Miele dealer for repairs and advise so on all my Miele reviews. The problem is, this advice is based on my knowledge that restrictive practices make it extremely difficult or even impossible for reputable independents to give a good repair service, and is precisely why I wrote this article in the first place because no one should be forced to use a dealer or manufacturer’s repair service.

Washerhelp
#45. March 26th, 2009, at 9:10 PM.

I agree it’s unfair to level this criticism at just one manufacturer although I have said in the original article and several times in comments that other manufacturers have restrictive practices. They have also been named. I do intend to do a separate article on them as I said I would, I apologise for taking my time about it.

Miele are the only ones that I know of though that have upped the anti by creating washing machines that produce error codes that once triggered need a special set of key presses or a special bit of software on a laptop to reset. Customers are then forced to pay Miele or one of their dealers to reset it. Therefore they are (ironically) the best at restricting independent’s trade because even if an engineer easily fixes the fault he can’t reset the error code.

Your argument about using only dealers and manufacturers for quality repairs has credence only if all independent repairers are incompetent crooks out to rip off customers. Unfortunately for you, independents have a far better track record for giving high quality service at reasonable prices according to Which? consumer research. The majority of the public also know that cowboys are a minority and that the majority of independent repairers can fix their machine quicker, cheaper and often in a friendlier manner than manufactuers or dealers providing they have access to proper technical information.

The trade magazine ERT have a mystery shopper go to random towns in the UK and ask for advice about products on sale in over a dozen main household name stores and independent small retailers. Almost without exception, each month, the big stores score 0 or little more out of 10 and most independents score 8, 9 and 10s, which shows that independent traders commonly provide better service.

I don’t intend to cast any aspersions on your own standards which I do assume are likely to be very high but you don’t have a right to accuse all your competitors of being useless cowboys and restrict their trade.

No one can deny there are cowboys, but it’s up to each customer to decide if they want to “risk” getting one or not.

Here’s what Which? say about the car repair industry, which I mentioned in the main article and subsequent comments and is relevant to this topic because there are parallels -

Main dealer or independent garage?

“In the past, carmakers imposed conditions that their new cars must be serviced by a franchised (main) dealer to protect the warranty.

But this is no longer allowed. The revised EC Cars Block Exemption Regulation came into force in 2003, outlawing this practice and enabling independent garages to compete on a more equal footing.

It included a requirement for manufacturers to make servicing procedures and parts available to independent garages, as well as to their own dealers. So, theoretically, the car servicing industry should be more competitive than ever.”

source Which? Advice: Main dealer or independent garage?

Washerhelp
#47. March 27th, 2009, at 3:33 PM.

Yes Mark, that’s the current situation and it echos my own advice on all my Miele reviews such as this from my W3740 review -

“If repairs are needed it’s likely that you would need to use Miele’s own engineers or dealers. Miele’s engineers don’t charge more than many other manufacturers but independent engineers (if you can find a good one) can often charge less labour and many people do prefer to use them. It has to be said that Miele aren’t very good at helping the independent engineer so technical information is hard to get. For this reason you inevitably run a risk of getting someone unable to deal with some faults through lack of the technical info or even a necessary laptop with specialised software on it. This is why I say you need to be prepared to use Miele engineers if any repairs are ever required.”

Washerhelp
#49. March 29th, 2009, at 12:28 PM.

We are going round and round in circles again Mark. You just don’t get it do you? We need to agree to disagree as nothing new is being added to the debate.

I, Ken, an unknown but most likely substantial percentage of the public, and the government, all think it is the right of customers to choose who they want to fix the products they buy, and that preventing others from being able to compete in the free market of repairing and maintaining all products is illegal because it creates a monopoly, which the competition commission says is, “bad for customers and the economy”.

You disagree. I accept that, but no amount of excuses you can come up with can change the truth of the above paragraph. Your concern for the general public being ripped off or suffering a low standard of service is laudable but your concerns apply equally to every product ever made. The logical conclusion of your argument is that there should be no independent repairers of any product anywhere, and all repairs should be done only by manufacturers and appointed dealers who can then charge whatever they want – it’s called a monopoly. If that was such a good idea, and the public would be better off, then the government would make it so instead of setting up a monopolies and mergers commission.

Anyone wanting to sympathise with your point of view has thousands of words in your previous comments to read. You’ve exhausted all possible arguments, hopefully you will have confidence enough in your arguments to let people decide for themselves.

Washerhelp
#51. April 22nd, 2009, at 11:22 AM.

Hello Ladfromoz: When you say, “What’s the big deal? They let you know, and you have the informed decision to make before you buy.” you clearly haven’t read enough of the waffle You don’t get told that some errors can only be fixed by a Miele engineer so you only find out when it’s too late to “make an informed decision”.

The problem with your suggestion to use Miele for the faults they won’t let anyone else reset and using an independent engineer for the rest is that there are virtually no independent engineers that repair Miele products – because they can’t usually get spares at a decent trade price.

Washerhelp
#54. April 23rd, 2009, at 12:35 PM.

Ladfromoz: Yes, the article is only about error codes on later models that can be reset by any engineer using specific key presses but apparently the information on how to do this is being guarded and not passed on to independent engineers.

Washerhelp
#55. April 23rd, 2009, at 12:53 PM.

Thanks for your contribution Anon: When you say this issue is complete rubbish I presume your opinion is coloured by the fact that you used to work for Miele, “a few years ago”. This topic was written because it came to light that recent models have certain error codes that must be reset using special key presses or special software.

My understanding is that there are more than one. I have yet to find out exactly how many and under what circumstances, which would be beneficial for clarifying the subject for all. I have it on good authority from highly active and informed engineers in the trade that this is becoming more and more of a problem and other manufacturers are slowly adding increasingly restrictive practices to their designs too. At the end of the day, large wedges always start with a thin end.

Your comments regarding Miele washing machines under guarantee aren’t relevant because as far as I know no engineer is wanting to carry out repairs under warranty. The comparison with garages and cars that I used may have muddied the issue slightly as I think they were insisting on being able to carry out repairs under warranty.

I don’t believe it would be fair to expect any manufacturer to pay independent repairers in the white goods trade for carrying out repairs under warranty. Manufacturers either deal with this aspect themselves, or employ dealers.

The issue is purely regarding products out of warranty. I agree with your point regarding the waterproof system and the danger of customers resetting certain error codes which have disabled the machine for safety reasons. The argument has always been focused on competent, qualified independent engineers being able to repair any product a customer owns once it is out of warranty. It’s also about a customers right to be able to choose whoever they want to repair it, and finally the government’s concern about healthy competition not being restricted which results in monopolies and higher prices.

Washerhelp
#57. June 20th, 2009, at 2:26 PM.

Hello Janette: Many Miele washing machines do have a lengthy guarantee, some as long as 10 years. When out of guarantee Miele argue that they or their dealers are by far the best people to maintain their machines. Whilst agreeing that’s probably true in many cases I wouldn’t agree to them forcing their customers to use them and there are many very competent and honest independent repairers.

The repair issue is important but don’t get it too much out of context. A £250 washing machine may only last several years. If ruling out Miele I would look at Siemens or AEG-Electrolux or if you have Miele-money and want similar build quality the ISE10 which is in a similar class to Mile but with full independent support and a promise to keep spares reasonably priced.

(The ISE 10 washing machine is mentioned on the bottom right column of this review – What is the ISE washing machine, and why is it different to other washing machines?

Washerhelp
#59. June 22nd, 2009, at 11:29 AM.

Thanks for a very useful comment Ladfromoz: As you say this issue is only one negative thing in my Blog and washing machine site otherwise full of praise for Miele.

Washerhelp
#61. June 29th, 2009, at 2:46 PM.

Thanks for your input. I think much of your criticism will apply equally to any other manufacturer though to be fair.

As you say there are excellent independent engineers and bad manufacturer engineers, so no one has the monopoly on good engineers. Independent engineers can (and do) also decide they don’t want to do a job by pricing it so high it’s highly unlikely to get accepted just the same as you say happens with manufacturer engineers.

This practice will happen amongst all manufacturers engineers as well as independents. Independent engineers do have a higher incentive not to do it because they earn direct money from each repair but they can be pretty fussy and often have the luxury of cherry picking and not wanting to work in dirty houses, for overly fussy customers or anyone that they don’t like the look of etc.

I do agree that Miele spares could be much cheaper, particularly as they make most themselves. This would help their machines last longer as repair prices are becoming very expensive but ironically basic Miele’s are still not too expensive in the scheme of things.

The latest Miele’s may not be as good as they used to be, in fact I wouldn’t be surprised if a 20 year old Miele was better built. However, they have to keep prices under control and presumably some compromises have to be made, what counts most is – are they still much better built than their nearest competitor and I suspect they are.

Your point about being charged under extended warranties if it’s found to be a customer issue is again nothing unique to Miele. Even under the initial 12 month guarantee all manufacturers will charge a customer if it is found to be their fault. This is perfectly reasonable.

Washerhelp
#63. June 30th, 2009, at 1:46 PM.

I didn’t interpret the pro-Miele comment as been aimed in your direction Ladfromoz, though who knows? I also didn’t interpret it as being aimed at me either. I thought he was referring to Mark although Mark made it clear he is a Miele dealer. So that doesn’t leave anyone else – so I’m not sure now

Washerhelp
#65. June 30th, 2009, at 1:57 PM.

Maybe I spend too much time on forums…

I know from experience, you can get very defensive when you spend too much time on them

Washerhelp
#67. July 6th, 2009, at 4:52 PM.

Thanks for your comments Steve: The prices quoted include parts though and are accurate. You are comparing those prices with a repair not needing any parts and taking less than an hour. As you say, and as I quote on my Washerhelp.co.uk site where I try to give an idea of current ( Washing machine manufacturers labour charges ) Miele’s labour charge for the first hour is a little over £90 – but spares are obviously extra and the spares can be very expensive. It is quite possible if you needed a new control module or a motor that you could be quoted up to £600 depending on model. It can be £450 for a motor and some are as high as £540, control modules can be between £300 and £499 plus the £92 labour.

It is inevitable that a high-quality product using high-quality parts will have expensive parts, so no one should complain about that either, though there is criticism by many in the trade that many of these spare parts are overpriced and could be more reasonably priced – especially when a basic Miele washer now costs only around £555 + Del. To give some sort of context, a replacement Bosch washing machine module fitted by a Bosch engineer could cost between £250 and up to £400 and a new motor could cost between £250 and £380.As the cost of a new Bosch washing machine is around these prices it’s little different to the Miele situation pro rata. The only difference to me is that I never expect a Miele washing machine to be beyond economical repair because it costs as much to repair than to replace and have always associated that with buying cheap washing machines not quality ones.

I need to remind us all that although some Miele repairs can be very expensive they are generally very reliable and hopefully most will never need a new motor or module. Also many models are guaranteed for 5 and even 10 years. I still believe you can’t get better quality than a Miele, it just obviously comes at a price.

I agree entirely with you that Miele engineers are likely to give an excellent standard of service and I’ve said so several times in this thread. The only issue raised in this article is whether or not it is right for any company to force all of its customers to use their own engineers or not. Having a network of highly trained engineers giving generally high quality service could give some companies the arrogance to believe it is doing its customers a favour by protecting them from cowboys but it wouldn’t give them any right to. It’s a bit Big Brotherish to have such “protection” forced upon customers for their own good.

I would personally go as far as to say that any Miele washing machine owner is probably on balance better using Miele’s own engineers or authorised dealers. I have said so in all of my Miele washing machine reviews although this is as much to do with the fact that there is no serious competition to Miele engineers because independents can’t really make any profit from repairing them generally. With Hoover and Hotpoint washing machines for example, where their manufacturers supply plenty of technical information and spares at good trade discount combined with the fact that there are far more machines to repair and they are much less reliable, I would usually recommend using an independent repairer because they can often be quite a lot cheaper.

On my washing machine site Washerhelp I have a section entitled Should I contact the washing machine’s manufacturer or an independent repair company? where I try to give a balanced and objective view of the pros and cons of using a manufacturers engineer versus using an independent engineer. In that section I point out some genuine advantages for using an independent engineer and it’s not just about price. I doubt the article would persuade too many people one way or the other because there are genuine pros and cons for both choices, which tend to balance each other out.

So as both options have pros and cons it is up to each individual customer to decide which one to use when their washing machine is out of any guarantee. It doesn’t matter how much anyone argues that one is better than the other, you cannot change the common sense fact that customers should be free to choose.

To keep things from getting too out of hand I’d like to remind people that only some error codes force people to use a Miele engineer and presumably many other repairs can still be carried out by any one qualified. I have pointed out this article to people high up at Miele and I know that Miele read my articles anyway because they quote many of them on their own “forever better” website. I still haven’t had any official response. I would be delighted to get this entire subject put into a proper context by being shown how many error codes fall into this category and whether there is a good valid reason which isn’t simply that Miele think independent engineers aren’t capable of doing repairs.

Washerhelp
#69. July 7th, 2009, at 2:32 PM.

Thanks Derek: As I don’t sell washing machines I’ve allowed some price increases to pass me by. It seems the cheapest basic Miele is around £554 at the moment + delivery ( Miele W1613 – Pixmania ).

Having said that my previous estimates of some repair costs were also too low so the differential remains the same. I’ve edited my figures to make them more accurate.

Washerhelp
#74. August 5th, 2009, at 3:47 PM.

Oldmotherhubbard: In my recent Comment 69 I linked to a Miele washing machine at £554 which is still available (plus delivery) which is £40 less than you quote.

Washerhelp
#75. August 5th, 2009, at 3:52 PM.

Hello Liz: Miele are one the best quality products you can buy. Their service engineers are likely to be the best to repair them too. It just shouldn’t be compulsory to use them which is what the article is about.

Washerhelp
#79. August 17th, 2009, at 12:53 PM.

Welcome Stuart: To be fair the same applies to all products. If you take any product you will find that buying all the spares separately to build a new one would cost many times that of the finished product. Buying just a few main parts can cost more than the finished item. In fact the ratio can be even greater in cheaper products. Here are a few examples from a review I wrote a few years back -

* Servis M3001 washing machine : Typical cost to replace the control module – £147.32 (62% of purchase cost)
* Indesit W103UK : Cheapest selling price £175, To buy a drum cost £106.00 which is just over 60% of the new machine price. If you want it fitting it’s likely to cost an extra £75 – £125 depending who you used – which could work out at over £230, £55 more than the cost of a new one to replace just one part.

It’s complicated but one of the issues is that selling spares is different to selling a finished product containing a set number of parts. Economies of scale which are present when building say 100,000 washing machines all at one time are very different to when making or buying in much smaller quantities of individual parts for spares stock. Spares also have to be individually packaged and kept in large warehouses.

If a part is very well made then the downside is that not only does it cost much more to produce, but they hardly sell any compared to poor quality parts that fail all the time. This is where economy of scale works against quality parts.

Also when we buy a finished product we are buying in bulk, we are buying hundreds of parts in one go which always works out much cheaper. If we buy just one part it’s going to be more expensive.

Most people do believe Miele spares are quite overpriced. I’ve no idea if this is true or not, there could be something in it but at the same time why would they deliberately make their machines unrepairable economically when they are supposed to be built to last 20 years? The expensive cost of spares could be just down to the quality and low turnover of many of them.

Washerhelp
#80. August 18th, 2009, at 4:00 PM.

I forgot to include in my last comment that yes, I agree with Stuart, it is worrying that Miele machines can be deemed beyond economical repair with 10 years or more left in potential longevity purely because of the very high cost of some spare parts.

Miele need to address this (if it can be addressed) before it becomes a serious reason not to buy Miele.

Washerhelp
#82. September 1st, 2009, at 11:25 AM.

Rob: I’m not sure what you mean. If the washing machine fails the earth test then it’s a fault on the washing machine which the engineer can fix. Do you mean the wall socket fails the earth test? If so surely they could use another socket or even an extension cable?

If all the sockets in the area have no earth though, an engineer from any company would be able to say it is dangerous to work on the appliance or even plug it in and use it, which is fair enough.

Washerhelp
#83. September 1st, 2009, at 11:40 AM.

Rob: I just realised, are you saying Miele said the sockets failed the earth test but the electrician said they were OK?

Washerhelp
#85. September 8th, 2009, at 4:21 PM.

Consumer: If the buttons received too much heat and failed then as long as the appliance has been used strictly according to the instructions it would look like a design fault and should be covered under the sales of goods act even out of guarantee (you have up to 5 or 6 years from purchase to claim – EU 2 year guarantee). However, if it wasn’t installed strictly to the instructions and was too close to the cooker below it wouldn’t be Miele’s fault.

The £500 to replace a pcb on the washing machine is one of the issues I’ve raised several times on this thread. If the washing machine only cost say £600 and it needs a £500 repair, then in my book that’s something you should be able to claim compensation for under the sales of goods act (if the washing machine is less than 6 years old – or 5 in Scotland).

To most people this amount would equate to the appliance being beyond economical repair, and surely it isn’t “reasonable” that a Miele washing machine should need such seriously expensive repairs under 6 years old.

Washerhelp
#88. October 18th, 2009, at 3:50 PM.

Thanks for that Mark. Anything that reduces the cost of repairs is good. It’s not common knowledge as far as I know, though if a part is available cheaper using part exchange a good repairer should make the customer aware without them needing to ask.

Are you saying that a Miele agent or Miele themselves would not ever quote around £500 to replace a motor or pcb, or drum bearings on say an 11 to 15 year old Miele washing machine?

Washerhelp
#91. January 11th, 2010, at 11:35 AM.

Hello Jeremy: Sorry for the delay in responding to your question. I think the waterproof error might mean a leak was detected. There is a base in the bottom of the machine and a method of detecting leaks. Did you ask them what the error meant?

Washerhelp
#93. January 11th, 2010, at 11:55 PM.

I think customers should be entitled to an explanation of an error code’s meaning, but not to any help to fix a fault. I don’t believe we even have any rights to detailed explanations of what could be wrong, just what the error code actually means.

In the old days, when washing machines and other domestic appliances went faulty they simply exhibited symptoms. Observing those symptoms the owner of the appliance could either hazard a guess as to whether the fault was serious or not, or they could consult an appliance engineer and describe the symptoms whereupon he could advise about possible causes and costs.

Appliances now often exhibit mysterious error codes instead. There are no symptoms to observe or describe to an engineer. This isn’t too bad as long as appliance engineers can find out what they mean and then advise as to possible causes and costs. If your local engineer doesn’t know what any error code means – or they do but even after fixing the fault they can’t reset the error code – then all options and choices are removed and you are then forced into dealing with the manufacturer exclusively, which has been discussed at length on this article and comments.

A few error codes are commonly explained in the user manual such as those for timing out on empty or fill, which are both faults that could have a simple explanation such as a tap turned off or a blocked pump filter. My own Miele W3740 ironically displayed an error yesterday, which was very helpful. It displayed something like, “water inlet fault” which made me instantly realise the water was probably frozen as my machine is in the garage. Sure enough after switching on a heating source the error eventually disappeared and the washing machine resumed working. Clearly Miele don’t hide all error codes and do have some helpful ones.