I’ve long since been a fan of the build quality of Miele washing machines and have written extensively about them as well as personally recommending them. My own washing machine is a Miele and it’s great. They are one of the best washing machines available regarding build quality and design. They are designed to last at least 20 years and should last much longer than cheaper washing machines. Unfortunately though, the cost of some parts and lack of repairer competition means certain repairs can be so expensive that some are falling victim to the same “beyond economic repair” issue that’s all too common amongst much cheaper washing machines.
I have always built into my recommendations the caveat that if buying one you should be prepared to accept that many independent washing machine repairers do not repair them because there’s little demand for Miele repairs in their area, or because technical information is difficult to get and they can’t get a proper trade discount on their spare parts. Therefore you need to be prepared to use Miele’s own engineers or dealers. The problem with this is that the lack of healthy competition means you may pay significantly higher labour costs, particularly on a minor repair where a trusted local engineer may have labour charges 50% less than Miele.
Independent engineers can’t easily get technical information on error codes and Miele don’t appear to give any reasonable trade discount on spares – the profit on which independent engineers rely. This means effectively there is no competition for Miele repairs.
What does this mean?
If you are happy, or even prefer to use only Miele engineers or dealers for any future repair this issue isn’t a concern. If you prefer to use a trusted local independent repairer or even a large independent repair company you should be aware that you may have no choice.
It should be noted that other manufacturers are also increasingly making it difficult for independent repairers by withholding or restricting error code explanations and technical information, and requiring special diagnostic equipment. (Independent companies often come out best in Which? surveys for customer service and customer satisfaction).
Do Miele appliances really last 20 years?
Miele make extremely high quality washing machines compared to most of their competition. As a result they should be much more reliable than a normal washing machine and last longer too. However, Miele washing machines still break down. The theory is that by investing more money in a Miele appliance it should work out cheaper in the long run than buying cheaper brands, which may need repairing and/or replacing much more often.
However, recent evidence is emerging that increasing repair prices – due in part to lack of competition and in greater part to extremely high spare parts prices – means some Miele appliances are being scrapped by their customers long before their designed for 20 years life span (see comments below) because the price quoted for repair by Miele is so high. This is a very worrying development and undermines their “forever better” slogan and ethos.
For an appliance to last 20 years it needs to be made to a very high quality standard – but it must also be economically viable to repair it when it breaks down. It doesn’t matter if an appliance is designed to last 100 years, it will only last until it’s first serious breakdown if it is too expensive to repair! Miele need to address this serious issue. Their appliances cost a lot more than a normal appliance and one of the main justifications for this price is that it will last a lot longer. If it doesn’t – most people would consider it was a bad purchase and will avoid Miele in the future.
This is a very disappointing development, and I would be very interested to know of the results of any legal challenge to Miele on this matter. I’m sure I remember reading recently that it is no longer necessary to use main dealers for servicing cars to keep up their warranty. This seems to go directly against moves made to protect consumers from restrictive trade practices. Is there anybody from ‘Which?’ reading who can clarify the position here?
This sort of thing was rife in the car industry until independent repairers got together and challenged it in court although the issue was more to do with independent garages wanting to deal with repairs under warranty which is different to just wanting to be able to fix something once out of warranty. It was ruled illegal and car manufacturers were forced to provide adequate technical information and sell specialist tools and equipment to independent repairers.
So far no such similar action has been organised in the white goods industry. Ultimately it has to be illegal to protect a product you manufacturer to such an extent that only yourself or your hand picked dealers can repair it. If that’s not restriction of trade I don’t know what is. However, this is possibly only a thin end of wedge situation at the moment.
I fully understand how a high quality manufacturer would want to try and control the standard of engineers repairing their product and would hate to assist potential cowboys to mess with their pride and joy but at the end of the day their customers deserve the option and right to let anyone they choose to repair their washing machine – including carrying out diy repairs if willing and able.
There are many reputable independent repairers who would charge £20, £30 or even £40 less labour to repair many straight forward faults but if by design many faults trigger an error code and disable the machine then without the means to reset the error code the customer would be forced to pay the manufacturer.
I do not have full details but hope people – especially engineers can add comments to clarify this situation fully.
Miele are serviced by reputable dealers with trained engineers. fact! Mine is serviced by a local reputable company.
Miele products are best bought from independents, not John Lewis.
The ISE range is not on sale at John Lewis; why promote it as an alternative ?
Mark: Not sure what your point is about Miele dealers and engineers. How reputable and trained they are isn’t in dispute. In fact I expect they are great and give excellent service. The problem is if consumers are forced to use them whether they want to or not. This would be restrictive practice and is not lawful as far as I am aware.
Your second statement is very sweeping and again, not sure what it means or how relevant it is to the topic. Miele products are best bought from whoever gives the best price and aftersales service. John Lewis have won many customer service awards by Which? and other consumer surveys, while independents generally beat manufacturers for quality, speed and value for money with regards to servicing in similar surveys. Independents however vary so much in standards it’s not possible to pit them all against one company.
The ISE range again is off topic and not even mentioned on this article John Lewis sell relatively few models compared to Currys and Comet etc. and they don’t even stock some makes of washing machine altogether. The fact that a washing machine isn’t sold at John Lewis doesn’t affect whether it’s a viable alternative or not. That’s decided by other factors.
There is nothing wrong with engineers specialising in brands, investing in training and putting parts on the shelf and then expecting that the manufacturer reciprocate some support for their commitment and investment is there?
You would not take a Mercedes to a Ford garage would you? or would you ??
Thats how manufacturers maintain the quality of service to their customers. The ones that care that is !
Why would anyone spend a moment of their time attending a training course if the unskilled and uninformed who do not put a penny into the industry are at liberty to operate not on a level playing field, but with all the advantages of no overheads, no stock, no training and a ‘the-only-thing-that-matters-is-the-price’ mentality?
Is it any wonder the industry has gone to the dogs? From my 45 years experience it is precisely because manufacturers have pretty much done what you suggest and acted without cause or concern for their brands or their integrity in pursuit of short term profits from a stack it high, sell it cheap; uncaring culture.
From your perspective it is ‘restrictive practices’ while to me and to many it is a commercially sound principle on which to manage your business.
Most of the brands that took the route you advocate are derided by all and sundry for shocking products and shocking after sales service. Now, as few brands with any integrity or care are left; you would have them throw in their lot with the great tide of white unmarked vans that make up the bulk of our service ‘industry’?
Lets hope Miele maintain the position that they have held since 1963 and look after what they have got and continue to care about their products and their dealers.
Gaining a toe hold in someone elses business by undercutting them is the easiest game in the world; any plank can do it. It does not mean that is the right way to run the industry for the benefit of customers. There is more to it than you present in your piece above.
You also failed to mention Miele’s 10 year warranty and the absence of any requirement for a charged visit throughout that period.
You are talking about dealers I presume, not independents. Many independents also specialise in brands, invest in training and putting parts on the shelf and they do not deserve to be barred from repairing washing machines and have their trade restricted because the manufacturer has deliberately stopped them doing so by denying them access to special codes. Dealers deserve to flourish but so do the good independent repairers.
Why not if the Ford garage had a good reputation and wanted to offer basic repairs and servicing at a more competitive cost than the Mercedes dealer? What about the thousands of local garages that have no dealership but can offer a good cheaper service on minor repairs or routine servicing? Most Mercedes owners would prefer to go to a dealer and that’s fine but it shouldn’t be compulsory. Also, many Mercedes cars are old and bought second, third or fourth hand by non-rich people who need a cheaper source of servicing.
By law, Mercedes are no longer allowed to withhold technical information to prevent anyone else carrying out repairs on their cars. This is to protect car owners from monopolistic charges and to protect legitimate repair businesses from being frozen out.
Manufacturers standards and quality of service can’t possibly be either enhanced or adversely affected by designing their products so only they and their dealers can repair them. They maintain their standards autonomously and are unaffected by independents. Their standards of service are their own affair and they live or die by them just like independents.
I understand your defensiveness but you are wrong to try to imply that all the thousands of people repairing washing machines that aren’t Miele dealers are some sort of underclass scum. I must admit I too was guilty at one time of thinking I was one of the elite few who were honest and good and all my competition were cowboys. For many years I held that belief but I now realise it was arrogant and unfair. Whilst there are plenty of cowboys there are also plenty of good, hard working and honest independents who have many satisfied customers and do a good job.
If an independent has no spares and doesn’t know what he’s doing his business is unlikely to flourish. However, if he’s one of the good guys his business should not be restricted by restrictive practices.
I respect your 45 years experience. The industry has gone to the dogs because of manufacturers making cheap disposable unrepairable washing machines and the public’s indifference and naive encouragement. This has nothing to do with the issue in discussion. In fact conversely if all the manufacturers had error codes that must be reset by the manufacturer then the culture you lament would be far worse.
Without the independents to repair cheap washing machines at a reasonable price then far more would be scrapped. Forcing consumers to use the manufacturer who charge on average £90 + parts to fix a £250 washing machine would do nothing but cause more to be scrapped. Few would consider paying £90 + parts to fix a £250 washer out of guarantee.
You describe restrictive practices perfectly. Restrict trade to a minority in order to increase profit to the detriment of competitive businesses and to the general public who are forced to pay much higher prices.
Again what you say there has nothing to do with not restricting who can repair their products. It’s their choice to start producing shocking products and shocking service and I share your contempt for them. If they additionally made it impossible for anyone but their own engineers (at £90 for the first half hour) to repair their rubbish how would that improve things? As I said earlier, that would only serve to make more of their rubbish unrepairable because repair prices would be even more “beyond economical repair”.
Agreed. I have nothing but respect for the quality of Miele products and service. However, I strongly believe they will flourish more if they help good independents to repair their products because it will bring repair charges down. Despite being so great, Miele are already starting to suffer from their washing machines becoming uneconomical to repair and I for one have started for the first time to consider whether they are worth recommending as highly as I have always done. I keep hearing reports of people being quoted repair prices so high that people are scrapping Miele washing machines that are nowhere near their expected and designed-for lifespan.
One engineer recently told me, “I just found it absolutely staggering that Miele’s under ten years old were being scrapped just because they need a simple part like a pump and, after it happens, guess what the customer will never buy again.”
I’ve also been told by another engineer that a customer of his scrapped a Miele at 5 years old because the main pcb failed and, “Miele quoted him about £500 to fix it”.
I’ve been told that Miele charge, “£99 plus VAT for the first 15 minutes and, I think, £20 or £25 per ¼ hour thereafter”. If you add these prices to the extremely expensive spare parts and the fact that many Miele washing machines are only between £500 – £700 we are now at a stage where some Miele washing machines – despite being considerably superior in quality – are starting to be scrapped well before their expected lifespan simply because it can cost almost as much to repair (or unacceptably close) than to replace. This is very bad. Another repairer tells me a washer dryer door seal is £140 and an older model is priced at £160. Miele charging £99 for the first 15 mins plus £20 for next 15 mins + £140 = £249 to replace a door seal when they sell a new machine at £500 is little better than Indesit engineers charging £99 + £45 = £144 to repair a £260 washer. The Miele owner still has a better machine and better expectations of the machine keeping running but psychologically it’s still around half the cost of a replacement machine and psychologically there’s still the risk of an further fault meaning even more expensive repairs. This is why many will be tempted to scrap the machine unless repairs are more reasonable.
In my opinion Miele repair prices need to fall substantially or Miele will decline as people realise they’ve invested more money in a better machine but it’s still susceptible to being too expensive to repair (or at least be unacceptably close) when they were told it’s designed to last at least 20 years. Many may decide to go back to the cheaper brands next time. Miele washing machines could be designed to last 100 years but still be scrapped after 10 if it can’t be repaired at a reasonable cost and if the repair cost is too close to the replacement cost. In such a case they are little better than a Siemens or AEG purchase.
I accept that Miele are so well made that hopefully repairs will be fewer and many people will get many years before a breakdown. Many people also get 5 or 10 year warranty but even with a 10 year warranty Miele owners should expect another 10 years life for their washer but if the motor or pcb fails at 10 years + and it’s going to cost £500 or more to fix which is nearly as much as they paid for it many will decide it’s not worth repairing.
Miele can’t afford to have their washing machines scrapped well before 20 years due to them being too expensive to repair. Miele should be above that and need to be so much better than the other throwaway rubbish to survive in their niche.
Gaining a toe hold in someone else’s business by undercutting them is fundamentally how business has always worked and always will. It’s up to the market, and consumers to decide if the business doing it cheaper is best or is cheaper at an unacceptable cost in quality or not. Again this is straying onto wider topics and it’s only relevant to restrictive practices because it shows how you advocate restricting other businesses that are competing with you by methods such as the error code monopoly by Miele.
I didn’t mention it because it’s irrelevant. Once out of guarantee, how ever long or short that is (and 10 year warranties are only on restricted models and for restricted promotional periods and don’t cover wear and tear) a consumer has a legal and moral right to be able to choose who they want to repair it. They even have the right to be able to repair it themselves if they are capable.
If any manufacturer designs a product that forces a consumer to have to pay only themselves or their chosen dealers to carry out repairs they are restricting consumer choice in their own interests and restricting competing trade, which is not legal as far as I’m aware.
Then challenge the legality?
Unfortunately because the industry is unregulated neither a customer or Miele can choose between those engineers who are good and those who are bad.
By opening up your product knowledge to all and sundry, by definition, many customers will end up in the wrong hands and both the customer and Miele will suffer as a result.
Miele are what they are; the best there is. If they wish to maintain that position then managing all aspects of their business and keeping their machines out of the hands of the cowboys is quite proper.
My last Miele repair cost £50 labour plus VAT from my local independent who is a Miele dealer. I have no need of Miele and there manufacturers rates; which are no different to most manufacturers charges.
Anonymous: It’s called the free market. You are trying to justify restrictive practices outlawed by government by pretending it’s in the interest of the people being exploited by monopolistic prices and restriction of choice. Feigning concern for the public being ripped off by cowboys is disingenuous.
Monopolies are seen as such a threat that government created the Competition Commission (formerly the Monopoly and mergers commission) who say-
You stated, “unfortunately because the industry is unregulated neither a customer or Miele can choose between those engineers who are good and those who are bad.”
So having understood that, how can you justify punishing all the good engineers with a blanket restriction of everyone’s trade? By that definition there would be no repairers for any product, and all companies would have their own monopoly on repairs.
Its not difficult.
There is no need to act on anything you complain about because customers already have the choice you say they should have.
Use Miele’s own engineers and pay the rate; use an independent like I did and pay a market rate. Whats the beef ?
It is beginning to sound like sour grapes because You are not one of Miele’s selected independents?
Its not a lot different to the pattern parts debate.
Should it be allowed to make pattern parts for other peoples products? It seems it should be.
But should a manufacturer honour a warranty on a product that has been fitted with a pattern part? Emphatically no.
Why? Because the quality of the pattern is a pale comparison to the original; that is why its half the price.
and the freemarket you love so much does nothing other than get a toe hold into other peoples business by undercutting and usually short cutting and short changing the machines owners by carrying out poor service fitting poor parts or worse.
It is not that customers are paying over the odds for their repairs; it is that they are paying the right price for a proper job.
If the dealers and Miele’s service is excellent and the repairs done properly it follows that the only way in this world that anyone else is going to improve on that is by finding short cuts to drop the price.
and so you have a downward spiral; where all of the quality and the ethics and integrity leach out of business because of the free market.
Nobody can afford to do the right thing; nobody makes any margin to support their business through thick and thin.
Witness all the very good businesses going to the wall as we pontificate because as soon as the tills stop ringing they have no business and no balance sheet and no reserves.
I have seen the impact of the processes you advocate on very good brands over 45 years and it is not something to promote.
It is to be feared.
I don’t think there’s much point continuing with this Mark so this is my last response until someone else contributes. You clearly have blinkers on because you have a vested interest. People can read both our comments and make their own mind up.
I sympathise with your anger because like me you have been around long enough to see the repair industry virtually destroyed but you are blaming the wrong thing. This discussion is purely about one thing only and this is that Miele now appear to be making washing machines that must be repaired only by their own engineers or dealers when error codes are triggered. This is a recent development and your business has presumably had many problems and gripes going back decades.
When you say, “There is no need to act on anything you complain about because customers already have the choice you say they should have.” it puzzles me as to whether you have even read the article and my comments properly. The whole article points out that customers now have no choice but to go to Miele or one of their dealers when error codes are triggered. They cannot fix it themselves and they cannot use their local repairman.
I haven’t complained as you put it, I’ve pointed out important information that the public would not otherwise find out until after a purchase so they can use it to help make informed decisions. I don’t have a vested interest because I do not do repairs and I do not sell washing machines. My interest lies only in giving factual information in a fair and balanced way to try and help consumers make informed purchasing decisions.
If you read what I have written about Miele and my Miele washing machine reviews you will see I am far from a Miele-basher and have convinced hundreds of people to buy Miele when they would not have done so before. I know this because I receive many emails saying they’d bought one only after reading my review, many say they’d never really even heard of Miele before. This is precisely why I feel morally obliged to point out this new development which means they have even less chance of anyone but Miele to do any repairs than I had previously advised about.
It appears to me that you are raising fears falsely, the only one who seems to have an issue is you; or those who tell you about the business you are not involved in.
I feel that is something that needs challeging.
But some useful points have been made, and hopefully consumers will see that there is another side; as there is to every coin.
Hi Martin,
There’s a few points on which I think you are incorrect.
The first is that, regardless of how you slice it, restricting the choice of a customer to Miele service only, squeezing out repairs by themselves or by an independent engineer, is just plain wrong. Why should Miele or any other manufacturer be allowed to create a monopoly in that way?
That’s like saying that, if I buy a Ford car, no-one can touch it except Ford as Ford won’t give out any technical information to *qualified* people. A practice that has been outlawed by the EU as it was deemed to be a restriction of trade and consumer choice.
As for pattern spares, if that is your view then why can I buy a Miele door seal, supposedly “pattern”, as it isn’t supplied from Miele, that Miele sell for about £100 for £30, with the Miele part number on it, from the same supplier as Miele use?
Are you seriously going to tell me that a Miele box and sticker are worth £70? And, if you buy the part only from Miele there is *NO* warranty or return if the pack is opened.
I agree, there’s a lot of bad copy parts out there but, equally, there are just as many that are the genuine article without the genuine price.
But the short of it is, Miele restrict servicing information to an excessive degree and overcharge for their spares as well as, in my opinion, their labour charges. All of which result in people that purchase one and require service to be held to ransom with their own money that they invested in a quality product in all good faith.
Good machines, shame about the catches.
K.
There are actually very few faults that fall into this category; but those that do are entirely to do with the electronic programmer and diagnostic software.
The up and coming scenario that is not that far away is that your quality machine will be wired into the net and potentially a manufacturer will know about a fault before you have time to report it because you will be on there system from day one with your warranty. This is tomorrows world; and there is nothing the ‘independent’ can do about it.
You have to understand that in order to differentiate itself, the quality brands have to offer ‘added value’ that set them apart. If they do not, nobody will buy them.
The under written 10 and 5 year warranty is the backbone of that world because all the added value will be built in to the purchase price; the repairs will be free and beyond that ten years most customers do not give a hoot, because it is more than double the average life of an average machine.
Manufactures may offer an annual service charge to keep the cover on past warranty; but paid for repairs as you understand them in the quality brands will be a thing of the past.
Thats not a monopoly, its a business; and it is a choice a customer makes at the point of purchase. If you oppose it, challenge the legality of it.
How a company like Ford manage there business is for them to worry about. But within warranty it is already the case that you have to return to the dealer.
Out of warranty; well you cannot sell cheap products to the masses and then bind them up in practices that add no perceived value to the customer. No one would buy in to it.
At the other end of the scale; if you go for quality, based on a promise, you buy in to that brands offering and expect them to stand by it. As much as ‘independent’ engineers would like to think otherwise, the majority of customers of quality brands do not have any worries about the cost of service; it is an artificial concern being aired by those here who purport to be ‘free marketeers’.
But let us examine their credentials for a moment. Not so many years ago a very Big retailer called John Lewis turned round to the manufacturers and said; ‘we are sick of being held to our never knowingly undersold price promise; it means we cannot sustain our artificially high prices as the internet are always undercutting us, do something about it’. The response was that Electrolux gave us the John Lewis own brand and Miele gave John Lewis there own models. Now when a customer goes into John Lewis they are free to push their own unique models in the comfort that nobody will be able to undercut that model, nor will they ever have to stand by the ‘Never Knowingly Undersold’ lie. I think that is deceitful.
Do we hear a word of complaint on these columns about this kind of restrictive trading ? No we dont; we have a recommendation of their wares and their service.
and as for pattern spares:
You have no idea about the relativity of parts pricing to its shelf life then. Miele will have your part on the shelf for 20 years or more. Your pattern part source will stop bothering as soon as the numbers selling dry up. That costs money as does so many other aspects of being and maintaining your quality brand.
and what of the integrity of that ‘pattern’ part. Its good because you say it is. But if it turns out to be sub-standard and totals the machine; where does the customer turn ? At that point the ‘engineer’ usually shows his true colours and dissapears.
Every argument you put forward for the ‘free market’ results in profit erosion and the inability to do the things that made you great. Research and Development is a huge cost, carried out to varying degrees of success by the best brands; what does your grey market contribute to that process. Nothing.
If you have any experience of working with the brand you will know three things.
1) Miele machines are reliable, they dont break down often.
2) When they do its usually after 10 -15 years and can be as long as 18-20 years.
3) At that point customers are happy and either do not resent a reasonable repair charge or they rather write off the machine for a replacement than even spend £50 on it.
I have had two Miele machines in my lifetime; my first was 18 years old when it came to me and went on for another 7 before I finally gave up on the noise from the worn motor, and my current machine which is 9 years old and counting; they have both been superb; and neither ever saw a Miele engineer, let alone an independent.
Mark: Thanks for your ongoing contribution. As long as we keep it totally on topic we will hopefully leave a thread that people can read and gain something from. We all need to try and be more concise and to refrain from repeating points already made.
When you say, “There are actually very few faults that fall into this category..” that’s the kind of clarification I was after to help make sure all facts are known. People can decide for themselves if that’s acceptable or not. However, the inescapable concern is that this is the thin end of the wedge and if a restrictive practice only applies to some faults it’s still restrictive practice. If what you are saying is that Miele can only maintain certain advancements on technology and design by only having their own people deal with certain repairs they are straying into dodgy territory.
I accept this is an important issue to you but no one can argue that it isn’t wrong because even the government have legislated against such practices which they say “damages companies, competition, and the economy”. Your argument is that you feel it is a good idea and justified, but unfortunately the argument is based soley on the fact that you personally benefit from it and that you are wrongly convinced that all engineers except Miele engineers are useless cowboys which is not a strong position. I am glad you’ve contributed your points though.
You also said -
You raise an interesting scenario which I could debate on but need to keep to the relevance of restrictive practices. As manufacturers become more sophisticated and technology advances it may be that
they can do this sort of thing but government and the public will need to decide if this comes at the cost of restricting competition and creating monopolies. I for one wouldn’t want someone contacting me saying there’s a fault on my washer and I need to pay them over £100 plus parts to fix it when I have no symptoms at all! I think most people would say no thanks I’ll wait until I have a problem.
Miele can’t offer added value by forcing their customers to use only Miele engineers who need to charge twice as much as some other decent independent engineers. They offer higher quality at a premium price for the few that can afford them. Their “value” has nothing to do with their attempts to restrict competition. Forcing their customers to use only Miele people and making it impossible (by deliberate design) to use cheaper legitimate (and as Ken pointed out) fully qualified competing engineers is in their interests only.
Anyone buying a Miele washing machine has the perfect right to use Miele or Miele dealers who will offer excellent service but at a premium price. Miele should not have the arrogance to pretend they are protecting their customers from cowboys when they try to restrict their competition who in many cases can offer just as good a service at cheaper prices – especially if they have proper technical information. Any Miele owner finding the cheaper engineers were unacceptably bad would never use them again and probably use a Miele dealer next time, that’s how it works.
I fully understand why Miele and yourself and other dealers would want to stop anyone else from ever touching a Miele product. It’s perfectly understandable to want to try and protect your own interests. The competition commission is set up precisely to police and restrict these practices because they recognise that the public and the economy must have protection to prevent thousands of monopolies.
Consumer choice is the foundation of a healthy economy and it’s essential to keep prices down and under constant pressure.
Here are some rhetorical questions – How much do you think a Miele washing machine would cost if Miele were the only company making washing machines in the world? How much labour would you charge if you were the only company doing repairs for 100 miles?
Some of your other points about the difficulties in providing high quality service I have sympathy with but Miele and yourself operate in a so-called free economy subject to market forces. I greatly admire what Miele are doing by being one of the few companies still making proper washing machines I really do. I fully understand how expensive it is to produce high quality products and high quality repair service. However, if the general public won’t pay the premium prices needed to support such high standards then the business model fails. If the public prefer to take risks and use cheaper companies or buy cheaper washers that’s market forces at work and they get what they deserve.
I’ve spent 9 years on Washerhelp trying to persuade consumers they are wrong to keep buying rubbish washing machines and should spend more on a proper washing machine, and whilst having a big effect I’m sure, most people continue to buy the rubbish instead. That’s their choice – and often they just can’t afford anything but the rubbish. We can’t force them. Maybe we could destroy all the competition so only Miele make washing machines, then we could force everyone wanting a washing machine to pay £1000 for the basic model? That would work and we’d be doing them a favour by protecting them from all the cowboy manufacturers selling inferior washing machines. I’m sure they’d be grateful ;-)
Mark: I wish you wouldn’t write so much as it means I have to ignore contentious points or reply to them all which makes my replies even longer ;-)
If the majority of customers of quality brands do not have any worries about the cost of service then this whole subject isn’t remotely threatening to you and purely academic to you. I hope you aren’t arguing just for the sake of it :-)
I disagree entirely with the claim. Miele washing machines start at around £555 and are affordable to most people as long as they value quality over features. I’ve personally received many emails from people saying they have never bought a Miele washing machine before and always bought Hoover, Hotpoint, Indesit etc but after reading my glowing reviews of them ( Miele overview ) they have decided to take my advice and invest money in a Miele.
Some though have described how it was tough to spend that much or even afford that much. Miele customers are not all rich people who don’t care about costs, and many may find if any repairs are required out of guarantee they may not be able to afford to pay Miele labour prices. With the current economic climate set to get very much worse even relatively well off customers are going to need to see if they can cut down on repair costs and should have the ability to do that if that’s what they want/need to do.
It is precisely with these people in mind that I believed it necessary to as well as commending Miele quality to also explain that buying a Miele these days could mean committing to using only Miele engineers for the life of the machine or at least for some specific faults. These people should know this information.
Apologies to all for writing at such length and 3 consecutive comments. There were too many points raised to fit in one reply so I thought splitting them up might help. I’m hoping for some comments from other engineers and consumers too.
You are right to criticise this practice, though you are wrong to blame either John Lewis or the Internet and to say that I would never criticise it. This practice is very old and easily pre dates the Internet and practised by virtually all the main retailers including Comet and Currys. In the 80s I bought a Matsui graphic equaliser for my hi fi which I believe is a Currys own brand with a deliberately Japanese-sounding name to imply quality as Japan had a high reputation for hi fi products.
They all do it and have done for decades. The practice is rife and muddies the waters to the detriment of consumers and I have spoken out against it too.
Contrary to your assumption, I am not someone with a vested interest complaining about things for my own benefit. I have a invested interest only in being seen as fair, balanced and with no vested interest. I don’t claim never to be wrong or never to have made a mistake, only that I try to write objectively and with informing the general public to the best of my ability as a goal. In return I hope to earn money through enough satisfied users visiting my sites to make low key but highly relevant advertisements work.
There are several places where I’ve criticised the exclusive models practice. Here is a quote from my replies to just one thread on one of my Forum posts
The above quote is balanced in that it criticises the practice but also tries to see it from their point of view. People can then make up their own minds about it.
Thank you for the indepth replies Andy.
Ultimately John Lewis use their position to control the market to their advantage. Shame its allowed to happen!
I would say that even if I were not involved in the business I would prefer within reason that companies be given leave to protect their business interests. It really depends on what you have to protect!
Personally I do not do vested-interests and would and do criticise the great and the good, and not for the sake of it !
The quality of an after-sales service network to a quality manufacture is a huge concern as it often these people who actually end up delivering on a manufactures life-expectancy and reliability promises, and thats not to mention safety concerns
Giving an open cheque book to all and sundry to service and repair undoubtedly undermines that aspect of a manufacturers offering, be it on washing machines, microwaves, or dishwashers.
I personally know of many cases that would make your hair curl regarding ‘unqualified engineers’ working on products from many manufactures which are at best dodgy and at worst dishonest.
Miele have a reputation of the highest order. That is something to defend; and I would make no apology for doing so, were I Miele, Mercedes Benz, Rolex or Maserati.
The point you are missing regarding Tomorrows World is that the service visit and repair would be done ‘under warranty’ at no cost to you.
Could you imagine how impressed you would be with the following :
‘Hello, is that Miele?’
‘Yes’
‘I have a problem with my washing machine!’
‘Yes we know, the pump is not operating. We have emailed you the self help problem solving guide, but if that does not resolve your probem we can have an engineer call tomorrow if its convenient; its all covered under your (insert warranty/service plan etc)’
At the moment its fantasy, but watch this space!
So if Miele’s intent is to defend its profit base in order that it can continue to lead the world in the production of the best quality and performing products then I applaud it.
If its illegal then i am sure one of the other manufacturers will come along to challenge it or copy it !
Its good there are still some companies around that look beyond short term profit and use the money they make to innovate and improve the world for us consumers.
The industry is littered with the remains of once similarly great brands that did not take care of their business.
Anyway, I think I have said quite enough !
Thanks Mark. I’m glad we’ve been able to discuss opposing views respectfully.
However, can you not see the irony and contradiction in your opening statement?
I keep trying to end our actual discussion so others can join in but you keep writing provocative stuff that’s hard to leave unchallenged – you are very good at that :-)
I probably know just as many. That’s why the trading standards exist. It’s their job to police the cowboys – not manufacturers. I can see why you agree with Miele (and other manufacturers are also making it harder for independents to get technical information) but unfortunately it’s against regulations to protect your own business to the detriment of restricting free trade. Bizarrely this is the very thing you are complaining about with exclusive models, which helps protect major retailers interests to the detriment of fair competition.
You cannot say that because there are cowboys you have the right to damage all legitimate repairer’s trade. If you are implying all engineers that aren’t Miele dealers or Miele engineers are scummy cowboys then at least say it.
Hi Mark,
Let me get this straight, you’re saying that…
It’s okay for Miele to create a monopoly for themselves through their practices but it’s not okay for anyone else?
Retailers should not be allowed to dictate what they sell or have products made specifically for them as you consider that deceitful and restricts consumer choice?
Yet refusing to supply information to allow the customer a choice of where a machine is serviced is okay by you?
Is it just me that sees a problem with this argument?
K.
I think you miss the distinction between those who make something and those who sell it.
I make it, its my product.
I offer it on terms, you decide to buy or not.
If I make 10,20, or 50% gross margin in my business is none of your concern; Ultimately I am running a business.
Your the one(s) who are harping on about illegality (remember innocent until proven otherwise) and monopolies (unfounded).
It is your opinion, that is all.
and on that basis I felt it was worth challenging and raising a voice of dissent.
Please reread what I actually said about John Lewis and base my criticism on.
John Lewis’s behaviour is deceitful solely based on their price promise. If they did away with the ‘never knowingly undersold’ tag instead of working to set themselves outside of the field of true competition I would have no issues.
Miele on the other hand only deliver what they promise, and the practice you criticise is just one of the ways Miele can continue to deliver on that promise.
You will never get me to agree that a jack of all trades is better than the master of one.
Mark: I can’t keep going round in circles on this with you. I can’t follow your logic any more. An example of which is your last statement, “You will never get me to agree that a jack of all trades is better than the master of one”. I couldn’t agree more with that statement so it’s clearly nothing to do with any argument I’ve put forward.
I will try to write a separate article on the subject of exclusive models though. All the major retailers have exclusive models for most major products. You highlight John Lewis presumably because of their never knowingly undersold boast, which I agree can’t be applied to exclusive models because you cannot buy the model elsewhere.
However, as long as a product is clearly labelled as an exclusive model common sense should inform everyone that it is only available at this store – so obviously it can’t be price-compared. Likewise no one should expect to buy a John Lewis exclusive brand of washing machine anywhere else. The John Lewis brand competes fairly with all other brands in an open market including the Zanussi models they are based on. They offer 3 year guarantees and some extra features. Customers comparing and researching can decide if the price they are sold at is good value or not.
Watch out for the topic and feel free to add your thoughts on it.
Meanwhile, trying to keep things on topic – how would you feel if you bought a John Lewis washing machine and as an engineer wanted to fix it yourself when if developed a fault – only to find it triggered an error code. You could work out what the problem was and cure the fault but the washer wouldn’t work until you’d paid John Lewis £99 to come and reset it? Their excuse could be the same as yours, that they are trying to stop cowboys fixing their washing machines which carry their well respected name and have a hidden agenda of trying to stop all decent engineers fixing them too because they can do it cheaper than them.
The same question could apply to your Sony TV, your car, your PC, everything you own in fact, and all manufacturers could use the same excuse. The result would be all your repair costs for every product would no longer be subject to any competition and rise considerably. I can’t see how you could possibly argue this would be acceptable to you as no one would believe you. You can only argue that it shouldn’t be allowed – apart from with Miele because you personally benefit. Sorry, but that position is indefensible.
You said it’s up to customers to decide if it’s acceptable or not but that is precisely why I wrote the article in the first place so that customers know what they are getting. They can then make an informed choice as to whether or not that’s acceptable to them. The complication is that the government believe restricting free trade is bad for the economy, so even if a small percentage of rich people are happy with the arrangement the government can stop it.
This discussion has been quite interesting to follow and has strongly influenced my choice of machine.
This may seem a little off topic but will not drift as much as some earlier contributions.
I currently need a new machine following the failure of a Blomberg 1501, it expired with much smoke exiting the drum. The machine has provided many years of good service and I have repaired it on two occaissions having previously been told by engineers that the machine was not economically repairable. Once I was informed that a motor would cost in excess of £140 it would take 6 weeks to arrive and then i would have to pay for fitting, at least two hours! I purchased a repalcement motor for £35 inc vat and delivery within three days, fitted in 25 mins.
I had seriously considered a Miele machine following a very good review on this site. I had hoped that paying £650 plus for a machine with a good guarantee and good parts supply would be wise. I would hope for a long service life, available parts and even the possibility of me being able to repair it if I am given a ridiculous quote by an engineer of any type from any company.
However, I will not purchase a Miele machine of any type having followed this debate. I strongly object to any form of restrictive practice that removes my ability to a make a choice. It is my washine machine and my money, I should have the choice of how I proceed to get it repaired and how I spend that money. I would have probably in all honesty sought the services of a Miele engineer, but I also feel strongly that my money should be spent supporting local businesses so I may have called on a local indepdent engineer. This should be my choice, I should not be tethered to the company by the need to have an engineer with access to error codes and/or a laptop.
I do appreciate the need for highly trained engineers to be able to make a living and the opportunity to achieve a return on years of training and experience. But this error code situation effectively forces me to use Miele engineers and pay what seem to be relatively high fees and very high spare part prices on top of paying a large sum for the machine itself.
I would now also be concerend with attitude and approach that a highly trained Miele engineer may have, I can understand brand loyalty, but I would worry that I would be dealing with washing machine zealots.
This error code practice I feel may well put many customers off of purchasing these machines, this will reduce sales, slow business, reduce the need for Miele engineers, as there will be fewer machines ultimately reducing the income for Miele engineers.
It has been stated that ‘the customer will decide’ and this one has, Miele has been crossed off of the list, because of this issue and to some degree the tone of the debate.
I will now re read the reviews on this site and check out Which and buy something else.
Mark said; “The under written 10 and 5 year warranty is the backbone of that world”
But Miele’s warranty is not insurance backed and has not been for some time now.
They used to underwrite it through D&G but not anymore.
If Miele go bust or get bought over it may well not be worth the paper it’s written on.
K.
Yes, thanks Ken, Miele have been running their own extended warranty promotions for about a year or so now. I don’t think Miele’s 5 and 10 year extended “cover” promotions could be affected by anyone else carrying out repairs out of the warranty. They are a promotional tool designed to maintain their image as a premium brand at a premium price and are used instead of price reductions. It’s perfectly legitimate for them to do that and I understand why they do but it would be bizarre to think that their premium brand image also benefits by keeping repairs also at premium prices.
Phil made some excellent points which back up our words but carry weight because they are from a consumer. As he agreed, once purchased, a product is the property of the customer and they have the right to do whatever they want with it including stripping it down and attempting to fix it themselves. They also have the right to let their next door neighbour have a look at it, a trusted local repairer who may have a great reputation, or even take a gamble on ending up with a cowboy.
To me, the ideal situation would be for Miele to maintain their premium quality and price but seek to reduce the extremely high cost of repairing them out of warranty by negotiating with and assisting reputable independent repairers, and by making the spares cheaper. I’m not sure Miele can survive only appealing to the wealthy but they are welcome to try if that’s what they want. If they price their basic models at around £550 though they are presumably hoping to increase sales to more ordinary consumers.
I would have thought they cannot afford to allow a situation where some of their £550 washing machines, which they proudly boast are designed to last at least 20 years start lasting only 5 to 10 years because the customer is quoted crazy prices to repair it. It may be that they are so reliable in general that very few Miele washing machines face this dilemma but according to my sources this is now starting to happen. Miele must be aware it doesn’t take many examples of dissatisfied customers spreading the word that they invested in the best but it lasted no longer than their previous Hoover or Hotpoint to undermine their image.
I bring such points up because I respect the Miele brand and their commitment to quality. Repairs are always going to cost more because of the higher quality of the spares and even the lack of economy of scale due to selling much less of them. But I just can’t see how a premium quality brand would need to also be extremely expensive to repair to maintain a brand image – especially if replacing one part can cost almost as much as a new basic Miele.
In the interests of fairness, there are other examples of restrictive practices by other manufacturers which may or may not deserve their own topic. I would appreciate them being mentioned too if anyone in the trade has legitimate examples.
Andy do you actually have any evidence for what is alleged in the original article you publicised. Have you asked Miele in the interests of impartiality and balance to respond to the source of your concerns ?
Google brings up only three references to this subject; yours, and Kenneth Watt’s (Kwatt?) whos earliest recorded post is dated march 2008 on his own site (ukwhitegoods.co.uk). Ken again repeats the accusation in a later forum discussion on moneysavingexpert.com.
In both instances the ISE model ISE10 is proposed by Ken as a suitable ‘unrestricted’ alternative to the Miele model discussed; and just who is it that is behind the ISE brand in the UK? I am sure you will name them for the benefit of your readers.
It seems the ‘vested interests’ I stand accused of cut all ways; and I hope you will not mind making your readers aware of that.
I’m also hoping that you will come up with some clear examples of actual restrictions in practice as opposed to the hearsay you have seen fit to publish. Otherwise this is in danger of coming over as nothing more than a smeer campaign.
I did ask Miele.
They declined to comment. Which says it all really for me.
As for connectivity, I think you’ll find that most people don’t want, or need, that level of interaction with a fridge nor do they want a call from an engineer (often at their expense) when they didn’t ask for it.
Too close to Big Brother for most I expect and the reason why that LG among others have abandoned the idea. It doesn’t sell as people don’t want it.
Also, if you do your homework, you’ll find I’ve been on about Miele’s restrictive practices for a *LOT* longer than that.
K.
Mark wrote: “In America today! and as americans are the greatest free marketeers there are I think you can safely assume there is nothing illegal or restrictive in the service.”
Indeed but also in America, until someone takes them to court over it then nothing will happen, much the same as it is here.
Whilst Miele get away with it they will unless they are either shamed into changing the practice or consumer pressure forces change through legislation in general as there aren’t enough Miele owners out there to make much impact on government policy. In short, it’s not important enough to be on the government’s radar.
What you will find is that many manufacturers trade on a fine line between what is legal and what they can get away with. Morality doesn’t even remotely factor into the equation which is what is being debated, not clever tricks and selling features as that’s just smoke and mirrors IMO to disguise the fact that, when appliances like these do go wrong, they cost a fortune to put right and you only have one option much of the time.
Miele aren’t the only ones that do this, Indesit Company are at it as well now with their various brands, Hotpoint, Indesit, Ariston, Cannon etc. and even extending electrionic resets etc. to ovens.
So, I have to ask, where do consumers want to go? Do they want this and only the option of manufacturer service at whatever prices they decide to set or, is it more fair and open to allow the consumer the ability to choose who services their appliance?
I tend to side with the latter.
Miele (and others) side with the former.
It really is that simple and regardless of how you try to defend Miele Mark, there is no escaping the fact that they offer their customers no choice for aftercare bar their own service at whatever they choose to charge people. To my mind, that’s a monopoly.
K.
Hello Mark: I deleted your other response, which was merely a long promotion for Miele products and not remotely related to the subject of whether or not Miele are restricting free trade by forcing customers to use their own engineers when certain error codes occur. Apologies to Kenneth who quoted a few of them in his replies but I need to keep this discussion focussed on the original topic.
Here is a response to your on topic comment above -
I don’t see my article as alleging anything. That’s an emotive word implying unsubstantiated accusations. My article is fair and balanced and it starts and finishes by restating my opinion that Miele washing machines are one of the best.
It also says, “If any of the information in this article is incorrect please let me know”. And in the interests of fairness I also said, “It should be noted that other manufacturers are also increasingly making it difficult for independent repairers” and I mention this fact again in one of my subsequent comments. (Kenneth has mentioned some of their names in his comment above)
I would be happy for Miele to comment but it’s hard to imagine how it could be defended really.
The issue isn’t how many people highlight it. It’s is it true or not, and should consumers know before making purchasing decisions or not?
You use the word, “accusation”. Are you now saying it’s totally untrue? As you’ve spent so long in the debate tying to defend the practice you can’t now imply it isn’t even true by saying it’s only an accusation.
I think I’ve made clear I don’t have any vested interests other than to be seen as having no vested interests. My entire sites depend on my reputation for balance, fairness and a resource that can be trusted. I accept your point that Ken is open to the vested interest smear but he has never failed to reveal his interests in all the articles and forum debates I’ve seen of his.
Also, his points cannot be undermined by having a vested interest if they are accurate and fair. Only a fool would totally dismiss warnings or information with the excuse that the one giving the message has some vested interest – although conversely, only a fool would accept words at face value if someone appears to have a vested interest too.
I can confirm that the ISE10 is “a suitable ‘unrestricted’ alternative to the Miele”. The promise of spare parts at reasonable prices, unrestricted access to technical information and support for independent engineers and even diy repairers is revolutionary.
Currently it’s only one model and therefore competes only with similarly priced Miele machines. I also think on a direct comparison Miele washing machines still win on sheer build quality comparison but the ISE10 is close enough to count and good enough for them to give even commercial users a full 3 year guarantee.
The concept is a direct threat to Miele because it is a premium quality product and the people behind it aspire to making it the most repairable washing machine available and want to get back to the good old days when products lasted decades because their owners could always get them repaired quickly and at fair, reasonable prices.
In these environmental and economic times it is potentially cutting edge philosophy but it remains to be seen whether or not the public will support it enough. They certainly should though in my opinion because products being repairable at reasonable prices is essential for the future and highly desirable. In the past Miele have relied on the sheer quality of their products but I believe they need to seriously look at making them a lot more reasonably priced to repair and relinquishing some control. If they do they will surely be unbeatable.
I’ve always accepted that a quality product inevitably costs more to repair, but if it is true that Miele can charge £160 for a door seal which is 3 times the cost of a normal decent quality door seal but in no way 3 times better quality, and can quote £500 to replace a main PC board they are now in serious danger of seeing some of their washers being scrapped due to being beyond economical repair many years before their 20 year life expectancy. This may only happen to a minority of machines but it totally undermines the point of investing in a high quality brand and in my opinion seriously damages Miele’s reputation.
I agree with you that many of these figures are anecdotal as I have not found out by personal experience. I’ve heard the information from sources I trust but I was hoping some engineers would quote these examples directly themselves.
The only problem with the ISE10 is that it costs £800 with a 10 year warranty but then I know I won’t get any argument from you that quality product and quality service costs a lot of money ;-)
You want me to come up with more examples? This is not a Miele-bashing campaign!
The article highlighted the only example I needed to highlight, that is that most Miele washing machines now produce error codes which can only be reset by Miele engineers or dealers which restricts fair trade and competition. You have spent many hours defending this practice as being “necessary”, but now you’ve changed tactics to try and call them accusations implying it was never true.
“Miele aren’t the only ones that do this, Indesit Company are at it as well now with their various brands, Hotpoint, Indesit, Ariston, Cannon etc. and even extending electrionic resets etc. to ovens.”
Well as long as thats made clear ! which it was’nt.
It appeared that Miele were being singled out for special attention; but what you are actually saying is that it will soon be an industy norm.
Thank you.
But Kens your monopoly is imagined, really it is; i’m now sitting in the office of a company that is an independent and is an appointed service agent for miele and other brands. Their service charge is £57.50 inc VAT for out of warranty repairs; they do all Miele machines as well as Bosch AEG Zanussi etc and none of their engineers have laptops. I can give you their number if you want it.
Good luck with the ISE; they (Asko) were a first class product for the years we sold and serviced them before they were taken down by soverieign. There was never much wrong with them; it was parts and service from sovereign that became a problem.
I am also mindful of the fact that Miele UK is a ‘sole distributor’ for the German Brand in the UK in the same way that ISEappliances are for theirs and that distributors have monopolies on products over territories which also presumably keeps prices artificially high and limits choice?
Would’nt it be great if there were two ‘Miele companies’ and dealers could play one off against the other :-)
Where will it end ?
The removed post highlighted the issue of ‘customer choice’ and gave a consumers view of their experience at the hands of Miele’s service Personnel which i felt was very much in tune with some of the concerns about customer choice being raised above.
But its Your site Andy.
Please lets agree to differ on the finer points; what is agreed is that you get what you pay for and what you pay for usually provided tangible dividends over cheaper alternatives. Miele’s philosophy for the last 100 years and something that has done them and the world little harm.
Hello Mark. I’m sorry about not accepting your other post. It’s the first and only time I’ve ever done it on this Blog. I could only see a long post about Miele’s customer service and technological advances. This thread is already bogged down with very lengthy comments which I fear most people will not be bothered to follow. It doesn’t matter how great Miele are, or how fantastic their service or technical advancement is, it has nothing to do with the legitimacy of restricting customer choice and other competition. Absolutely nothing.
A final comment from me before unlocking horns with you :-) and waiting for others to contribute, in response to your comment -
That was made clear in my original article when I said – “It should be noted that other manufacturers are increasingly making it difficult for independent repairers (who routinely beat manufacturers in Which? surveys for customer service and customer satisfaction) to get technical information but Miele seem to be tightening a grip they’ve always held.”
I also mentioned it at least once more in one of my additional comments #24 where I said – “In the interests of fairness, there are other examples of restrictive practices by other manufacturers which may or may not deserve their own topic”.
I also said in one of the first comments, “This sort of thing was rife in the car industry until independent repairers got together and challenged it in court. It was ruled illegal, and car manufacturers were forced to provide adequate technical information and sell specialist tools and equipment to independent repairers.”
Therefore, the fact that others are doing it has no bearing on whether a: it is right and b: it is legal and c: it will eventually be stopped. In fact the irony of your comment is that the more it becomes “an industry norm” the more likely it will be to be ruled illegal and stopped.
Hi Mark,
Actually ISE was my idea because of these practices and the fact that a lot of the indies were being frozen out from certain brands. I make no apology for trying to offer decent products at decent prices with as much freedom on information as possible. Nor do I apologise for making spares cheaper or encouraging repair before replacement.
The point is, if ISE can do it, why can’t Miele? What have they got to protect or be frightened of by allowing repairers or users to be able to repair the machines?
We print the error codes and what they mean in the user manuals. We even tell people how to resolve the problem themselves in there and on the phone, email or forums to try to save an engineer visit wherever possible.
What’s wrong with that and being that open?
And, just as a side note, you drew the comparison first and stated that I had a vested interest and I did and do. Twenty years ago I had an interest as a repairer and I still do today irrespective of what my job title happens to be in seeing that people get all the information without the corporate soundbites. Then the decision is solely with the customer, where it should be, in what to buy.
K.
There are probably a million and one reasons why Miele have evolved into the company they are and none of them will have anything to do with anything illegal or underhand.
The world is a fast changing place; the internet has transformed our business and our companies; but really Ken, to even liken your operations to those of Miele and their 45 year plus history of growth in this country is a bit rich dont you think ?
The ethics are all well and good and have their place as we have discussed, but the reality is that Miele want, for the time being at least, that their dealers survive and thrive on a two way relationship. If you commit to the excellence that is Miele, Miele will commit to providing you with a level field that applies to all their dealers.
Whats wrong with that ?
The alternative is that you evolve into another Indesit or Beko where your only concern is the number of boxes you move and leave the customer care to whoever it was that sells at the cheapest price and picks up the sales.
You and i know that those dealers are the last people who will try to help.
I note neither you or Andy have taken up the challenge on the service side and wish to help debunk this myth that there is any ‘monopoly’ or restriction on servicing Miele.
Please, show me where any other manufacturer, Bosch, Siemens, Aeg, LG, Haier or any of the others have public access to any technical information or help with diagnosing and fixing problems with their machines?
Change the title of this piece to “Warning about potentially restrictive practices in washing machines servicing” and paint the true and complete picture and i would be happy, but its not likely to happen ;-)
I’ve said all I need to say Mark. Sorry, I don’t think there’s any point in me continually repeating the same arguments.
You’ve got the wrong end of the stick on one point though which I need to clarify. No one’s said manufacturers should provide public access to technical information, only to engineers. The public have a right to try to fix their own machine if so inclined and capable – not get technical support. We just meant that being forced to pay Miele to reset the machine infringes on that right.
I am very interested in this debate as we have a Miele machiine which we have probably had for 10 years. This week the motor packed in and obviously it’s too expensive to repair so we are in the market for a new one. My wife is keen on Miele but having read this article I am having second thoughts. Has there been any more news in the past few weeks?
One question – one of the reasons my wife likes the Miele is that the door doesn’t wait 2 minutes before being able to be opened. Is there any way I can find out which other makes and models don’t have this irritating “feature”?
Hello Mark T: The whole premise on which I have enthusiastically recommended Miele washing machines is that they are of such high quality that they should last a good 20 years. If you have a Miele washing machine that you are happy with and it is only 10 years old, which needs a new motor then the theory is that it should be worth investing in a new motor as the machine is only halfway through it’s potential lifespan.
Have you had a quote, or are you just assuming that it is not worth repairing? My gut instinct is that it should be worth repairing because it is a high-quality product. There is little point in buying a high-quality washing machine if you aren’t prepared to invest in repairs to keep it running as long as it is designed to last. However, the unavoidable caveat with this advice is that the cost of replacing the motor needs to be reasonable compared with the cost of buying another Miele washing machine, otherwise your Miele washing machine would then be, “beyond economical repair” which as I have hinted at in this article and subsequent comments would be very bad for Miele.
The irritating feature you mentioned is present on virtually all washing machines because it is cheaper to use a basic bimetal door interlock instead of something more sophisticated.
Thanks for your help. My wife dealt with the service engineer and apparently it doesn’t make financial sense to replace the motor although admittedly I don’t have a quote (and I will now ask for one). We are currently looking at replacing it with one valued at £550, so if the motor replacement costs more than, say, £400 then it probably makes sense to get a completely new one(?)
To make a fair judgement you need to compare how much it costs to repair with how much it costs to replace it with another Miele of similar specifications.
But if you could buy a brand new Miele with a 5 year guarantee for around that price you might still prefer it to fixing your current Miele even if your current one is say £750 to replace.
It’s not for an engineer to decide if a washing machine is beyond economical repair its for the customer. You should have been given a quote for a replacement motor surely?
OK, I’ve had a quote of £400 to replace the motor on our current machine, vs. getting a new one for £550, so it’s about whether or not the price is close enough to justify a new machine. It’s a tough call and I don’t really know what to do. Thanks for your help, though.
Most people these days have a psychological problem with spending £400 to replace one part on a washing machine when they could buy a new equivalent (or near equivalent) complete with a new guarantee on all parts (in this case at least 2 years) for £550. It is just too much of a gamble for most people. In your case you are being asked to pay 73% of the cost of a new machine simply to replace one part. (Don’t forget what I said though about comparing like for like if your model is a higher spec model which might cost (say) £750 to replace with the same specs as this would reduce the percentage to 53%.
With the majority of washing machines and for the majority of people it’s likely to be a no-brainer – the washing machine would be seen as being uneconomical to repair and would be scrapped. With a Miele washing machine of 10 years though it should be less of a gamble because it’s supposed to last 20 years and could therefore give another 10 years service. It’s a quality washing machine so the fears of something else breaking down soon after are diminished but cannot be ruled out.
The problem is these repair prices are now entering the same territory that mere ordinary washing machines have occupied for many years and I’ve always scorned. In the 90s we used to repair Hoover washing machines costing £365 with motors costing £89 (in the days when you could replace the main armature). This equated to just under 25% of the replacement cost, or even if you compare with the replacement cost of Hoover’s entry model at £250 it was still only 36%. Even then it wasn’t uncommon for people to prefer to buy a new one instead but the majority of people would have the repair done with relative confidence.
As I pointed out as a secondary concern in this article, some Miele washing machines are now being scrapped well before their proclaimed lifespan because their owners are being quoted £400 and £500 to replace one part when they can buy a brand new Miele with at least 2 year guarantee for not much more. I still find this shocking. I don’t know if Miele see this as a problem but if a significant percentage of these customers do not buy another Miele washing machine and tell others that it only lasted several years and no longer than their last AEG, Siemens or Bosch etc. then maybe people will start to think there’s no point investing in a Miele.
The whole point of a Miele is that it is superior in build quality, it costs a lot more (in most cases) than their competitors but at least they last 20 years and so work out a good investment in the long term. If this is starting to be undermined because of the high cost of repairs verses the relatively low cost of a replacement there will be consequences eventually.
If these ratios are transposed to other products you can see how crazy they are. If you bought a £14,000 car and halfway through its expected lifespan it needed a repair and you were quoted £10,220 (73%) what would you do? Or at the other end of the scale if you had an £80 printer and were quoted £58.40 what would you do?
If you’d bought a £300 Servis washing machine and were quoted £219 for a new motor (this is a fairly accurate set of figures) it would be equally outrageous but at least I could imply it serves you right for not buying a better quality washing machine.
Please let us know what you decide to do. As you say it’s a tough call.
I agree with you about the relative cost of repairs, especially since this is just one part that needs replacing. I’m not sure how much these motors cost to the trade, but I found only one source on the Internet last night and the cost to me would be over £400, which seems astonishing. It occurred to me our repairer might take away our existing machine and replace the motor with one salvaged from another machine, and then sell it on second hand for a reasonable profit (not in itself an issue but might encourage them to recommend a new machine).
Anyway, after discussions we have decided to buy a new machine as it comes with a 5 year warranty, so it was a no-brainer, really.
Thanks again for your eloquent and speedy replies.
Only this week I have knowledge of two miele machines ‘written off’ as uneconomical to repair because of one = electronic and two = motor by an independent engineer.
The customer (a housing association who owned both machines) sought a second opinion.
In both cases the machines have been repaired by an authorised independent repairer (not Miele) at a fraction of the cost quoted; by repairing the true fault as opposed to the one invented because the repairer had not a clue of what he was looking at.
This kind of behaviour is rife in this industry and should be highlighted. You are better off going to someone/anyone who actually has the trust of the manufacturer in question and avoiding the ‘jack of all trades’ who very quickly gets out of their depth.
At that point the £20 difference you might have to pay for someone who actually knows his way around your machine looks like very good value if it is going to net you another 10 years with your Miele machine.
Perhaps if Miele made the servicing information available, rather than continuing with the restrictive practices, to the trade then those machines would not have been written off.
But they do, so we all just have to deal with it.
K.
This does happen, the reason I don’t believe it’s “rife” though is that most independents don’t touch Miele repairs as they can’t get technical information or the codes to reset the error codes. Add to this the lack of a decent trade discount on spares and the fact that most independent trade spares suppliers hardly stock any Miele spares (because they can’t get a decent trade markup too?) And finally the fact that there’s not a great demand for repairs because Miele are a relatively obscure brand in the big scheme of things and are generally very reliable products – and it all equates to a situation where most independents just shrug their shoulders and accept that Miele products are not something worth getting involved in. This is exactly the situation desired by Miele, as confirmed by yourself.
There will always be some people who will have a bash though, and without technical information some may be unable to diagnose some faults properly. Some others may just be not up to the job and wouldn’t be able to diagnose properly even with technical information. But there’s never an excuse for inventing a fault and telling a customer it isn’t worth repairing just to get out of admitting you don’t know what the fault is or to try and sell another machine. In that I very much agree. Having said that, you can’t know if the misdiagnosis was fraudulent as you claim, or just incompetent or a genuine best guess.
However, the issue being discussed in recent comments was the cost of replacing a motor on a 10 year old Miele washing machine compared with £550 for a new Miele causing another customer to scrap a Miele way before it should be scrapped. Your comment is only really speculating that in some cases an engineer may have been mistaken in advising a motor is required. I accept this can happen but it also happens with all makes of machine due to a minority of incompetents or cowboys.
So we agree that some cases of Miele’s being scrapped could be due to misdiagnosis, but unless you can come back and say a motor for a 10 year old Miele washer would cost much less than the £400 – £500 fitted and that Miele washing machines never need a new motor or PCB etc. then all the issues recently discussed are still valid. The only thing in question is how many of the cases where Miele’s have been scrapped are due to being too expensive to repair (which is impossible to know) – and not that Miele’s are are not starting to get scrapped because of very high repair quotes and when they are no where near their proclaimed 20 year life span.
I can see your point that the amount of Miele’s being scrapped could be unfairly distorted because of misdiagnosis’ but it’s something there are no figures for and you can only speculate on. As I said, few independents bother looking at Miele’s any more so I feel it’s not likely to be affected as much as you claim yet I acknowledge you make a valid point.
I also agree that Miele owners should seriously consider only using Miele engineers or a Miele dealer for repairs and advise so on all my Miele reviews. The problem is, this advice is based on my knowledge that restrictive practices make it extremely difficult or even impossible for reputable independents to give a good repair service, and is precisely why I wrote this article in the first place because no one should be forced to use a dealer or manufacturer’s repair service.
I find BSH Group to be as restrictive as any other. Try ringing Appliance Care and getting technical help to repair a Bosch machine; also try ringing AEG at your local service force office and see how much help you get.
It is unfair to level this criticism at one manufacturer.
It is a fact that if you have a Bosch or Siemens machine you are well advised to use Appliance Care or one of their appointed agents for repairs as they are equipped and trained to work on them.
Likewise AEG, Likewise Miele.
In fact; all the quality brands would stand that test. If you want to see the maximum return on your investment in a quality product invest in the quality of its after sales service network too.
By doing so you will avoid the folly of believing that their is a cheap fix that does not involve untrained personnel and patterned parts; all of which will shorten your enjoyment of your product.
You only need to look at the banking industry to see what happens when you have unregulated price lead competition.
I agree it’s unfair to level this criticism at just one manufacturer although I have said in the original article and several times in comments that other manufacturers have restrictive practices. They have also been named. I do intend to do a separate article on them as I said I would, I apologise for taking my time about it.
Miele are the only ones that I know of though that have upped the anti by creating washing machines that produce error codes that once triggered need a special set of key presses or a special bit of software on a laptop to reset. Customers are then forced to pay Miele or one of their dealers to reset it. Therefore they are (ironically) the best at restricting independent’s trade because even if an engineer easily fixes the fault he can’t reset the error code.
Your argument about using only dealers and manufacturers for quality repairs has credence only if all independent repairers are incompetent crooks out to rip off customers. Unfortunately for you, independents have a far better track record for giving high quality service at reasonable prices according to Which? consumer research. The majority of the public also know that cowboys are a minority and that the majority of independent repairers can fix their machine quicker, cheaper and often in a friendlier manner than manufactuers or dealers providing they have access to proper technical information.
The trade magazine ERT have a mystery shopper go to random towns in the UK and ask for advice about products on sale in over a dozen main household name stores and independent small retailers. Almost without exception, each month, the big stores score 0 or little more out of 10 and most independents score 8, 9 and 10s, which shows that independent traders commonly provide better service.
I don’t intend to cast any aspersions on your own standards which I do assume are likely to be very high but you don’t have a right to accuse all your competitors of being useless cowboys and restrict their trade.
No one can deny there are cowboys, but it’s up to each customer to decide if they want to “risk” getting one or not.
Here’s what Which? say about the car repair industry, which I mentioned in the main article and subsequent comments and is relevant to this topic because there are parallels -
source Which? Advice: Main dealer or independent garage?
So, without regulation or legislation you pay your money and take your chances?
Or; until the industry is regulated or legislated on you are well advised to seek expert help from someone who is competent and authorised by your products manufacturer to carry out repairs with all the technical knowledge and support required.
By so doing you will not risk being wrongly advised or taken advantage of by the small percentage of bad apples that exist in our industry; or be dissapointed by a competent engineer who does not have the necessary experience or tools to do the job.
These recommendations would apply pretty much to all the quality brands available and will ensure you get the maximum life from your machine; and will put you in a more favourable position with your manufacturer if you were unlucky enough to suffer a premature failure.
You may pay a few pounds extra; but on balance it is money well spent.
Fair enough ?
Yes Mark, that’s the current situation and it echos my own advice on all my Miele reviews such as this from my W3740 review -
If the manufacturers were to permit any and all engineers accees to the full technical information they wanted they (the manufacturers) would still have no idea of the quality of the repairman until after he had damaged, blown up, misdiagnosed or otherwise caused the premature end of the machines life; not unless that is, the customer complained to them, at which point the damage has been done.
The manufacturers are not in the business of training; they are in the business of selling and would not have any means of knowing whether the information made freely available was being interpreted correctly or applied appropriately by the varying qualities of repairman out there.
So even if the world turned on its head and the information you want was available to all engineers, customers would still pay their money and take their chance, and you, if you cared about customers and your reputation would still be advising those customers to seek out and engage the services of someone trained and competent and who has the endorsement of the manufacturer to repair their product.
Its an awful shame that in these times when customers ought to be encouraged to go against mass consumerism, buy responsibly and sustainably, that the one manufacturer who has been abiding by the right principles for a hundred years is being singled out by a few people for criticism on what is a very flaky argument; and one that would apply across the board and which by its very suggestion seeks to undermine what the best achieve in our market place.
Miele appliances have not been of much consequence to independent engineers for over 45 years, and most did not/would not work on them because they could afford not to with or without electronics; as their were’nt that many out there.
It is only as a result of Miele’s phenomanal success and growth in the last 5-10 years that the brand has come under scrutiny here.
Lets face it, given the appauling quality and reliability of the vast majority of the ‘popular’ brands; and their low life expectancy, and given that it makes no economic sense to repair a two year old appliance for around half its original value (typical); increasingly engineers have been left in a replacement market where there are little or no repairs to be done.
Is it any wonder that engineers have been looking for other sources of work and been frustrated that one of the brands that do last; are economically repairable and are now out there in numbers have spent the last 45 years building up a quality repair network that does not need or want additional help; especially as that help would inevitably undermine the quality because it is price lead.
It would be enough for whitegoodshelp and washerhelp etc to recognise the causal need for it; underscore the fact that your unlikely to need repairs on a Miele for a very long time out of the guarantees available, and acknowledge that there is a vast number of independents around the country who already do what K Watt and the others complain of; and even identify and publish the names of those lucky independents who make the grade.
That would be a service to customers and to independents.
We are going round and round in circles again Mark. You just don’t get it do you? We need to agree to disagree as nothing new is being added to the debate.
I, Ken, an unknown but most likely substantial percentage of the public, and the government, all think it is the right of customers to choose who they want to fix the products they buy, and that preventing others from being able to compete in the free market of repairing and maintaining all products is illegal because it creates a monopoly, which the competition commission says is, “bad for customers and the economy”.
You disagree. I accept that, but no amount of excuses you can come up with can change the truth of the above paragraph. Your concern for the general public being ripped off or suffering a low standard of service is laudable but your concerns apply equally to every product ever made. The logical conclusion of your argument is that there should be no independent repairers of any product anywhere, and all repairs should be done only by manufacturers and appointed dealers who can then charge whatever they want – it’s called a monopoly. If that was such a good idea, and the public would be better off, then the government would make it so instead of setting up a monopolies and mergers commission.
Anyone wanting to sympathise with your point of view has thousands of words in your previous comments to read. You’ve exhausted all possible arguments, hopefully you will have confidence enough in your arguments to let people decide for themselves.
Thanks for the speed reading lesson. What waffle, you guys love roundabouts don’t you.
Think yourselves lucky you get 5 and 10 year warranty on Miele products – here in Australia we only get two years warranty.
The service agents are designated by Miele, and there are a number of them – all service businesses that Miele have selected.
What’s the big deal? They let you know, and you have the informed decision to make before you buy.
However, as Miele seem at face value to be better than the rest in reliability and performance, I figure it’s gotta be better than my last piece of junk. I owned a Fisher & Paykel top of the range WL80T65C Aquasmart, and it leaves lint all over the washing. It’s a known fault – have a look at http://www.productreview.com.au and do a search for aquasmart.
Having battled for 7 months, I am getting a full refund and so we are going for one of the two base models of Miele. Still, at AU$1699 and $1999 respectively, it’s a big decision, worth researching, which is what has led me here. More info at the au site miele.com.au
It is interesting to read what you say about service errors that need cleared by a magic button combination or a computer. What you don’t say, however, is how often this type of event occurs. I read that it is only on some faults that an error occurs, so why not use the Miele repairer for those faults and use your “no brand” repairer for other faults?
I have just finished a ring around to the local service agents in my area and the biggest concern I have, as raised by more than one repairer, is the cost of parts which is somewhat prohibitive.
So do I buy Miele? Why not. Hopefully if something is going to die it will be in the first two years so the parts will be covered. Otherwise, we will just have to pay. And pay and pay and……
Hello Ladfromoz: When you say, “What’s the big deal? They let you know, and you have the informed decision to make before you buy.” you clearly haven’t read enough of the waffle ;-) You don’t get told that some errors can only be fixed by a Miele engineer so you only find out when it’s too late to “make an informed decision”.
The problem with your suggestion to use Miele for the faults they won’t let anyone else reset and using an independent engineer for the rest is that there are virtually no independent engineers that repair Miele products – because they can’t usually get spares at a decent trade price.
I used to work for Miele a few years ago and there are a few things I would like to clarify
Callout Charges:
£99 for the first hour including call out and VAT.
Usually when people describe their symptoms common sense can dictate what components are most likely responsible for the problem and a rough estimate can be given- even before an engineer attends.
They don’t restrict repairs to just Miele engineers and approved service dealers; a customer can quite freely go to a 3rd party.
However if the so called dealer where to muck something up then they may very well void any guarantees on the machine. Also that 3rd party would not be able to claim work for that appliance if it was under guarantee, as Miele would not know
a) The repair was genuine
b) The person knew what they where doing
c) May do more harm then good
d) No guarantee that the problem is permanently resolved.
e) Particularly when electronics are involved which require programming correctly once installed.
Hence repairs under guarantee are limited to approve technicians. And even when customers do approach independant traders most take one look at the machine and say “I dont know better ask Miele”
Its a bit like going to your GP to ask them perfom a heart bypass on you- their general knowledge with things medical is good but Im sure you would rather go to a specialist or consultant- and you GP would refer you to them anyway!
On the subject regarding to a fault that stops a machine from working until a engineer resets it that is complete rubbish- It sounds to me that you are describing the WPS (Water proof System) has triggered- basically the appliance has detected the presence of a internal leak where normally water should not be present so stops working until said issue has been sorted. If the water evaporates- or source/cause of problem is no longer there then the fault will disappear of its own accord (Of course this could take up to a week or so if a lot of water is present (much too long for a person with 5 kids who uses the machine very day- hence a engineer can go out find cause of said leak, fix issue then reset machine more promptly)
I’m sure people would rather the machine to temporarily stop work and flag up a prospective minor fault or issue rather then let it progress into a full blown nightmare- this is also why some options for programming the appliances in factory mode are not revealed(and very few machines have this feature anyway with most on-site diagnosis going throgh the laptop)- If Joe Bloggs where to get a warning message that he would then ignore/reset himself and then have a machine suffer more permanent/ serious damage /blow his mains he would not be best pleased and guess where the blame would be passed back to?
With older machines passed their guarantee – Miele did (and still do as far as I am aware) guarantee parts fitted by us engineers for a year so if the part where to go again the call out and repair would be free.
Also with older machines Miele can just send parts to customers at their request – of course due to health and safety we cant advise how to fit them or guarantee them if fitted by a unapproved party – but its the customer choice. – Such as a door seal.( One of the few situations I would say DIY)
On the subject of older machines the average life for a Miele I have found is 10- 20 years middling around 13-15.
Hi again
You say…
You can only have a choice of who to use in a free market where healthy competition isn’t restricted.
Is that what the whole thing is about? What do Miele themselves say in response to them? I emailed them asking them, we shall see….
Ladfromoz: Yes, the article is only about error codes on later models that can be reset by any engineer using specific key presses but apparently the information on how to do this is being guarded and not passed on to independent engineers.
Thanks for your contribution Anon: When you say this issue is complete rubbish I presume your opinion is coloured by the fact that you used to work for Miele, “a few years ago”. This topic was written because it came to light that recent models have certain error codes that must be reset using special key presses or special software.
My understanding is that there are more than one. I have yet to find out exactly how many and under what circumstances, which would be beneficial for clarifying the subject for all. I have it on good authority from highly active and informed engineers in the trade that this is becoming more and more of a problem and other manufacturers are slowly adding increasingly restrictive practices to their designs too. At the end of the day, large wedges always start with a thin end.
Your comments regarding Miele washing machines under guarantee aren’t relevant because as far as I know no engineer is wanting to carry out repairs under warranty. The comparison with garages and cars that I used may have muddied the issue slightly as I think they were insisting on being able to carry out repairs under warranty.
I don’t believe it would be fair to expect any manufacturer to pay independent repairers in the white goods trade for carrying out repairs under warranty. Manufacturers either deal with this aspect themselves, or employ dealers.
The issue is purely regarding products out of warranty. I agree with your point regarding the waterproof system and the danger of customers resetting certain error codes which have disabled the machine for safety reasons. The argument has always been focused on competent, qualified independent engineers being able to repair any product a customer owns once it is out of warranty. It’s also about a customers right to be able to choose whoever they want to repair it, and finally the government’s concern about healthy competition not being restricted which results in monopolies and higher prices.
This has been jaw droppingly good to read, i have just spent the whole day trying to convince my partner into buying a miele washer after our 11 yr old hoover one packed up yesterday. I am now unsure myself due to all this repair price talk. Its pretty scary. I think i had better stick to the £250 ones.
Hello Janette: Many Miele washing machines do have a lengthy guarantee, some as long as 10 years. When out of guarantee Miele argue that they or their dealers are by far the best people to maintain their machines. Whilst agreeing that’s probably true in many cases I wouldn’t agree to them forcing their customers to use them and there are many very competent and honest independent repairers.
The repair issue is important but don’t get it too much out of context. A £250 washing machine may only last several years. If ruling out Miele I would look at Siemens or AEG-Electrolux or if you have Miele-money and want similar build quality the ISE10 which is in a similar class to Mile but with full independent support and a promise to keep spares reasonably priced.
(The ISE 10 washing machine is mentioned on the bottom right column of this review – What is the ISE washing machine, and why is it different to other washing machines?
To Janette Jones.
All I suggest is that you weigh up the pro’s and con’s carefully, and I suggest you don’t let this article alone determine what you buy.
I am a computer tech from Australia. So I don’t have any alliances with any washing machine company.
We also had a hoover/whirlpool/similar washing machine that died after a similar time. So we went and bought a $1000 (about £ 450) Fisher & Paykel machine, supposed to be the best machine they sell.
Unfortunately I found a local product review site all too late.
See a post from me earlier in this discussion for a link to the BAD from that machine.
So we got a full refund after 7 months of grief with that machine.
Needless to say, I researched a bit harder before deciding what to buy.
I found this site and also read through this article.
But I also had a close read of other articles here -
Have a look at the problems associated with cheap machines, and why they are “cheap” -
Do a search for “prices shaved” on this site for the article
“Washing machine prices shaved way too much – what’s going on?”
( Link to article – Washing machine prices shaved way too much – what’s going on? )
And what makes Miele better – Miele build quality overview
Then there is the “holes in washing” issue –
Do a search for “holes in washing” for the article
“Holes in washing (Laundry)
And the possible problem that I posted in that article, reply number 118. (I did say I did a lot of research before buying again…)
I ended up paying $2399 for a machine that normally sells for $2999. Can you believe it? That much money, for a WASHING MACHINE??
Number 1, it actually washes clothes, number 2 clothes dry quicker because of spin speeds up to 1600rpm (selectable), number 3 it is built to last, the bloomin thing weighs a whisker under 100KG’s. In the showroom the salesman opened the door 90 degrees to the machine then lifted the whole machine up from the front, by the door…
I asked him whether he could do that with the Bosch, and he said “I wouldn’t do that…”
Sure you don’t need to pick a machine up by the door, but the fact that you can certainly shows the build quality.
The whole point about this article is simply the potential for expensive repairs because of Miele requiring Miele trained technicians to service their products.
I don’t know what it’s like over there, but there are a number of service agents locally here – only 1 in the area that suits me but one is enough. I asked other repair companies about why they don’t service Miele, I had a good discussion with one company that used to service Miele when they were in another state, but they don’t here because the time and cost to set up as a service agent is not worth it to them due to the lack of need for those skills – they hardly ever saw the products when they were in a larger centre. So I am not saying they don’t break down – in my game I know anything can break, but I can say the possibility of you ever needing a service agent is a whole lot less…
Is it worth the stress of trying to get a cheap machine fixed, or worse – replaced when it doesn’t do what it’s supposed to – clean clothes??
I’ve been down that road, it was not fun. Now I am a happy Miele owner and hope for many years of trouble free service from this machine.
Why do I write so much? I think you are misguided if you are turning away from Miele on this article alone. That would be a shame.
Thanks for a very useful comment Ladfromoz: As you say this issue is only one negative thing in my Blog and washing machine site otherwise full of praise for Miele.
I am a miele engineer direct not an independent and if they find out it was me who was writting this i would be sacked for sure!!!
I have been in the trade for more years then i care to mention miele DO use restrictive practise end of!
I do have the pleasure of knowing some very good engineers in miele and out of miele and some dreadful engineers inside miele and out its human nature good and bad in everything but i do tend to find independents try harder because its their living on the line instead of just over pricing a job so the customer does not have it repaired the engineer then completes the job off collect the £94 so they can go home early without any difference to the engineers pay!! yes it does happen and i can name a few engineers who do it every day!!!!
Went to a single miele oven just the other day f90 oxy sensor fault very very common its a known fault (although miele will not admit it!)only needs one electronic changed miele tell us to change all 3 electronics oxy sensor,power and control electronic totaling over £1200 and it is a known problem as been since they introduced them!but we still have to try to make the customer pay every time!
i can go on but i have a sneaky suspicion that the pro miele corner on here are actually working for miele it would not suprise me one bit.
The new miele machines take it from me are nowhere near as good as the old one’s.maybe its because i am old i prefer the old ones
Seems strange nowadays the most common thing i change is electronic boards which apparently they keep telling me do not fail but they do!
Oh and just for info miele make most of their own components well over 90% them to control the quality so they tell us which is great but it also means they only ever pay 10% of the retail price so the £300 electronics you just brought cost them £30 and then there is your labour so nearly £400 for a £30 electronic and forced into buying it from them and having it fitted by them or their dealers does seem a little bit unfair.
Miele in my personnel opinion was really good it used to be a pleasure to work for them now there is a lot of unhappy soldiers amongst the ranks and the machines are not in my opinion what they used to be although they are still high quality appliances.
Becareful of their 5 and 10 year guarantee’s they will charge you if they think its a customer issue and an engineer as to call even if you do not know what you have been doing wrong!
Thanks for your input. I think much of your criticism will apply equally to any other manufacturer though to be fair.
As you say there are excellent independent engineers and bad manufacturer engineers, so no one has the monopoly on good engineers. Independent engineers can (and do) also decide they don’t want to do a job by pricing it so high it’s highly unlikely to get accepted just the same as you say happens with manufacturer engineers.
This practice will happen amongst all manufacturers engineers as well as independents. Independent engineers do have a higher incentive not to do it because they earn direct money from each repair but they can be pretty fussy and often have the luxury of cherry picking and not wanting to work in dirty houses, for overly fussy customers or anyone that they don’t like the look of etc.
I do agree that Miele spares could be much cheaper, particularly as they make most themselves. This would help their machines last longer as repair prices are becoming very expensive but ironically basic Miele’s are still not too expensive in the scheme of things.
The latest Miele’s may not be as good as they used to be, in fact I wouldn’t be surprised if a 20 year old Miele was better built. However, they have to keep prices under control and presumably some compromises have to be made, what counts most is – are they still much better built than their nearest competitor and I suspect they are.
Your point about being charged under extended warranties if it’s found to be a customer issue is again nothing unique to Miele. Even under the initial 12 month guarantee all manufacturers will charge a customer if it is found to be their fault. This is perfectly reasonable.
To: Sacked engineer
You say
i can go on but i have a sneaky suspicion that the pro miele corner on here are actually working for miele it would not suprise me one bit.
There is nothing to stop me from suggesting you might work for the opposition to Miele, however I do not doubt your intentions, you have an issue and that’s fine.
I work as a technician for a computer company and have done for 25 years. I know how things work, I understand the difference between quality and the junk seen too often in todays “throw away society”.
This machine I have now is solid. And it works – it actually cleans the clothes. I see you don’t have Fisher & Paykel in your corner of the world, all I can say is lucky you.
But this is digressing from the intentions of the topic, so I will leave it at that.
Just that I thought I should clarify on your point, there is a difference between someone that works for Miele, and a genuine happy customer. I am a happy customer. It will however, be interesting to see if I am still a happy customer in 20 years time because that is a serious amount of money to spend, and on a washing machine of all things. You still think I work for Miele?
They can stick their dryers up their proverbial. Have a look at their prices! I don’t care how good they might be, it’s a dryer… You have to be kidding, to spend over $2000 on a DRYER! Rip off!
I didn’t interpret the pro-Miele comment as been aimed in your direction Ladfromoz, though who knows? I also didn’t interpret it as being aimed at me either. I thought he was referring to Mark although Mark made it clear he is a Miele dealer. So that doesn’t leave anyone else – so I’m not sure now :-)
That’s fair enough. I just read it as me being only one of those that are in the pro-miele camp, whatever the reason.
Irrelevant when it comes to the topic anyhow. Maybe I spend too much time on forums…
I know from experience, you can get very defensive when you spend too much time on them :-)
I agree that restrictive practices are a matter of concern, but I’m inclined to wonder about the veracity of some of the claims made here when the statements about the price of Miele’s service are so wildly inaccurate.
I had reason to call out a Miele service engineer about three years ago when our washing machine developed a fault. It turned out that the fault was a result of a build-up of sludge (because we are in a permanent hard water area), and not a problem with the machine per se. The machine needed a good clean and a general service (not something that could be done to all machines, as many cannot be stripped down as easily or as thoroughly as a Miele).
The engineer diagnosed the problem quickly, fixed it, stripped down and cleaned the machine, gave us advice on how to avoid the problem in future, updated the machine’s firmware, and presented us with a bill for £95 for the call-out and 1 hour’s labour (the minimum charge was for 1 hour, and he spent much of the hour cleaning out the machine and giving it a general service).
Take a look at the Miele website and you will find that the minimum charge is currently £92 inc VAT, which covers the call-out and the first hour’s labour. And they guarantee that they will turn up within a two-hour time window. If you just want them to diagnose the fault and provide an estimate the call-out will cost you £61. If you wish to go ahead with the repair ‘on the spot’ this can be converted to the £92 call-out including one hour’s labour (so you don’t pay both charges unless the engineer has to call twice). I’ll admit that this isn’t cheap, but it’s not in the same league as the figures quoted in some earlier posts.
Our machine has now gone wrong again … and I’m pretty sure it’s the same problem (we weren’t very good at following the engineer’s advice). We had no hesitation in calling the Miele service line again (they’re coming in a couple of days’ time), though we might think twice about replacing expensive parts as the machine is now 11 years old and has been run every day (often twice a day) ever since we bought it. We’ll have to balance the cost of any repair against the cost of a new machine with a ten year warranty, but I suspect we will probably keep our current washer for another four or five years.
When I first thought about buying a Miele washing machine I was struck by how similar it was in build quality and general feel to a Bendix machine that my grandmother owned in the 1960s – and right the way through the 1970s. It’s no exaggeration to say that it feels like the Rolls Royce of washing machines. Of course the down-side of owning a Rolls Royce is the bill for servicing, but then RR-approved technicians are better trained and equipped to service and repair RRs than those who are not RR-approved, and RR carry spares for absolutely ages. Sound familiar? And sometimes it’s worth paying extra for peace of mind (Miele stand behind their repairs with a guarantee).
IF the government got its a**e in gear and started insisting that _all_ tradespeople should be properly qualified, licensed, insured, and provide believable guarantees, then the independents would be better able to compete with the big companies at the ‘premium’ end of the market. (I’m not just talking about the licensing of those servicing and repairing white goods here, I’m talking about plumbing, carpentry, building, heating, and other skilled trades as well) Without this kind of legislation the big companies will always be able to attract well-heeled (and risk averse) customers in spite of high charges because they perceive the risk of going to an independent to be greater than the potential reward. This is one of the main reasons why word-of-mouth recommendation is so importatnt to independent operators and their customers.
I have no connection with Miele other than as a satisfied owner of several Miele products, and as a satisfied recipient of their service.
Thanks for your comments Steve: The prices quoted include parts though and are accurate. You are comparing those prices with a repair not needing any parts and taking less than an hour. As you say, and as I quote on my Washerhelp.co.uk site where I try to give an idea of current ( Washing machine manufacturers labour charges ) Miele’s labour charge for the first hour is a little over £90 – but spares are obviously extra and the spares can be very expensive. It is quite possible if you needed a new control module or a motor that you could be quoted up to £600 depending on model. It can be £450 for a motor and some are as high as £540, control modules can be between £300 and £499 plus the £92 labour.
It is inevitable that a high-quality product using high-quality parts will have expensive parts, so no one should complain about that either, though there is criticism by many in the trade that many of these spare parts are overpriced and could be more reasonably priced – especially when a basic Miele washer now costs only around £555 + Del. To give some sort of context, a replacement Bosch washing machine module fitted by a Bosch engineer could cost between £250 and up to £400 and a new motor could cost between £250 and £380.As the cost of a new Bosch washing machine is around these prices it’s little different to the Miele situation pro rata. The only difference to me is that I never expect a Miele washing machine to be beyond economical repair because it costs as much to repair than to replace and have always associated that with buying cheap washing machines not quality ones.
I need to remind us all that although some Miele repairs can be very expensive they are generally very reliable and hopefully most will never need a new motor or module. Also many models are guaranteed for 5 and even 10 years. I still believe you can’t get better quality than a Miele, it just obviously comes at a price.
I agree entirely with you that Miele engineers are likely to give an excellent standard of service and I’ve said so several times in this thread. The only issue raised in this article is whether or not it is right for any company to force all of its customers to use their own engineers or not. Having a network of highly trained engineers giving generally high quality service could give some companies the arrogance to believe it is doing its customers a favour by protecting them from cowboys but it wouldn’t give them any right to. It’s a bit Big Brotherish to have such “protection” forced upon customers for their own good.
I would personally go as far as to say that any Miele washing machine owner is probably on balance better using Miele’s own engineers or authorised dealers. I have said so in all of my Miele washing machine reviews although this is as much to do with the fact that there is no serious competition to Miele engineers because independents can’t really make any profit from repairing them generally. With Hoover and Hotpoint washing machines for example, where their manufacturers supply plenty of technical information and spares at good trade discount combined with the fact that there are far more machines to repair and they are much less reliable, I would usually recommend using an independent repairer because they can often be quite a lot cheaper.
On my washing machine site Washerhelp I have a section entitled Should I contact the washing machine’s manufacturer or an independent repair company? where I try to give a balanced and objective view of the pros and cons of using a manufacturers engineer versus using an independent engineer. In that section I point out some genuine advantages for using an independent engineer and it’s not just about price. I doubt the article would persuade too many people one way or the other because there are genuine pros and cons for both choices, which tend to balance each other out.
So as both options have pros and cons it is up to each individual customer to decide which one to use when their washing machine is out of any guarantee. It doesn’t matter how much anyone argues that one is better than the other, you cannot change the common sense fact that customers should be free to choose.
To keep things from getting too out of hand I’d like to remind people that only some error codes force people to use a Miele engineer and presumably many other repairs can still be carried out by any one qualified. I have pointed out this article to people high up at Miele and I know that Miele read my articles anyway because they quote many of them on their own “forever better” website. I still haven’t had any official response. I would be delighted to get this entire subject put into a proper context by being shown how many error codes fall into this category and whether there is a good valid reason which isn’t simply that Miele think independent engineers aren’t capable of doing repairs.
Hi Washerhelp,
I know this thread is about restrictive practices, but I’d like to pick you up on your point regarding the price of a basic Miele being had for around £500, as i have been researching thoroughly on the Internet, & you are lucky to get a Miele for a shade under £600 delivered online, & more like £700 instore ~ i’m told prices have increased due to the weakness of the £ against the Euro!
So if you can get a basic Miele for around £500, i for one would be grateful if you could educate me:) .
Thanks
Thanks Derek: As I don’t sell washing machines I’ve allowed some price increases to pass me by. It seems the cheapest basic Miele is around £554 at the moment + delivery ( Miele W1613 – Pixmania ).
Having said that my previous estimates of some repair costs were also too low so the differential remains the same. I’ve edited my figures to make them more accurate.
From what I’ve read here, some people insist it’s better to have a product repaired only by the manufacturer.
As far as I’m aware, this does not apply to aviation for example, where safety is paramount. Correct me if I’m wrong, but would it be better if commercial aeroplanes were only repaired by the manufacturer or is it safe enough to have other companies repair them instead? Does the same apply to things like medical equipment?
If the product is repaired properly and it’s safe, that’s what matters, regardless of who repaired it.
Hi guys,
Well what can I say I knew it would be difficult deciding what washing machine to replace my faithful machine (obvioulsy not a miele!) with, but having read (mostly skip reading at the end!) this epic I think I may just change my mind. The thought of spending anything over £500 for a washing machine was hard enough for me, I really do want a to buy quality goods and the temptation of having a washing machine last for upto 20 years for my little lot would be, quite honestly, a god send!
I’m now undecided and will probably have to spend another night on the internet reading another forum/blog of advice. I’m not sure I can deal with all the round the houses stuff! Sorry guys I know your intention is good, but I’m really only interested in the facts…
I have spent most of the night researching Miele washing machines and the cheapest was £595… excluding delivery and removal of the old faithful :(
Found this site by accident. Can’t believe how heated the discussion seems to have become. Very interesting, except having so many other things to keep me occupied, I can hardly believe I’m contributing.
Are you all REAL people? I certainly am.
Now, to the point, we have just purchased a whole huggin of miele appliances including a washer dryer. The kitchen is not yet fully fitted so we have no way of knowing how reliable these appliances are. We felt that the brand name Miele offered a guarantee of quality, good workmanship and reliability. I do so hope we will not be disappointed.
No one likes to be ripped off.
If I need to call out Miele I shall certainly expect a quality service or their name will be “mud” in our household.
Please reassure me that we have made a good choice.
Oldmotherhubbard: In my recent Comment 69 I linked to a Miele washing machine at £554 which is still available (plus delivery) which is £40 less than you quote.
Hello Liz: Miele are one the best quality products you can buy. Their service engineers are likely to be the best to repair them too. It just shouldn’t be compulsory to use them which is what the article is about.
To Liz (post # 73)
You say “Please reassure me that we have made a good choice.”
Well, you haven’t.
You have made a Great choice!
My wife and I are very happy with our Miele washing machine. it’s a joy to use. I read at a local (Australia) productreview site how people couldn’t believe they were getting so excited about using a washing machine of all things.
Now we know what they mean.
The way things stand with me now, I am converted, very happy with the machine despite the initial coming to terms with the price.
Many thanks Washerhelp. I have enjoyed, if you can say spending all day on the web enjoyable! using your site and have found it very useful in purchasing my next little washing work horse! I would highly reccommend the site for people wanting advice on their next purchase and many other topics. All in all a brilliant site!
Guys
It is an interesting discussion, however one of the fundamental issues for me is that machines become uneconomical to repair because of the hugely high cost of parts, not necessarliy the labour.
My tumble dryer failed recently, after 11 years. Not bad you might think. But it was sold to me as a 20-year lifetime device.
The faulty parts were the heating element (no surprise, as it heats, cools, expands, contracts a lot over 11 years) and the condenser fan.
The cost of replacement parts from Miele was seriously over priced.
This is what I was quoted:
The heating element: £144 + VAT
The condenser fan: £223 + VAT
The labour charge to fit them £95 + VAT.
A total of over £500 for basically 2 parts.
This has nothing to do with making high quality parts or having trained technicians. This is overcharging for the sake of it.
I phoned Miele to complain about the whole situation.
I told them at these prices it would cost over £3000 to make a new tumble dryer, but in fact they can manufacture one (including the parts and the labour costs), make a profit, ship it to the UK, and sell through a retailer, who also makes a profit, for £600.
They didn’t seem to care, even when I said I might not buy Miele next time. They brushed me off.
So I have an 11 year old machine, that looks like new inside and out, which I will have to scrap because I can’t repair it reasonably.
If anyone has some good ideas, I’m listening.
Thanks
Stuart
Welcome Stuart: To be fair the same applies to all products. If you take any product you will find that buying all the spares separately to build a new one would cost many times that of the finished product. Buying just a few main parts can cost more than the finished item. In fact the ratio can be even greater in cheaper products. Here are a few examples from a review I wrote a few years back -
* Servis M3001 washing machine : Typical cost to replace the control module – £147.32 (62% of purchase cost)
* Indesit W103UK : Cheapest selling price £175, To buy a drum cost £106.00 which is just over 60% of the new machine price. If you want it fitting it’s likely to cost an extra £75 – £125 depending who you used – which could work out at over £230, £55 more than the cost of a new one to replace just one part.
It’s complicated but one of the issues is that selling spares is different to selling a finished product containing a set number of parts. Economies of scale which are present when building say 100,000 washing machines all at one time are very different to when making or buying in much smaller quantities of individual parts for spares stock. Spares also have to be individually packaged and kept in large warehouses.
If a part is very well made then the downside is that not only does it cost much more to produce, but they hardly sell any compared to poor quality parts that fail all the time. This is where economy of scale works against quality parts.
Also when we buy a finished product we are buying in bulk, we are buying hundreds of parts in one go which always works out much cheaper. If we buy just one part it’s going to be more expensive.
Most people do believe Miele spares are quite overpriced. I’ve no idea if this is true or not, there could be something in it but at the same time why would they deliberately make their machines unrepairable economically when they are supposed to be built to last 20 years? The expensive cost of spares could be just down to the quality and low turnover of many of them.
I forgot to include in my last comment that yes, I agree with Stuart, it is worrying that Miele machines can be deemed beyond economical repair with 10 years or more left in potential longevity purely because of the very high cost of some spare parts.
Miele need to address this (if it can be addressed) before it becomes a serious reason not to buy Miele.
miele now charge £138 for a call out.
what I object to is their policy of not touching the machine if it fails their earthing fault test.
We had to call in independent electrictions at cost to ourselves to prove the equipment was safe.
we did not receive an apology from miele and they then had the cheek to put our call to the bottom of the list.
Rob: I’m not sure what you mean. If the washing machine fails the earth test then it’s a fault on the washing machine which the engineer can fix. Do you mean the wall socket fails the earth test? If so surely they could use another socket or even an extension cable?
If all the sockets in the area have no earth though, an engineer from any company would be able to say it is dangerous to work on the appliance or even plug it in and use it, which is fair enough.
Rob: I just realised, are you saying Miele said the sockets failed the earth test but the electrician said they were OK?
I have a lot of miele appliances i bought them all at the same time about 5 years ago. to date the cooker hood has needed repair (the buttons on the front failed apparently due to the plastic behind receiving too much heat!), the two ovens i have had to have the seals replaced (which i understand was a common fault on all of the ovens) and was still made to pay for a replacement. The coffee machine has needed repair once and again now it is not working. The washing machine has just packed up and i am told one of the boards has gone and will cost £500 to repair! I asked for an engineer to come out and see to the two items on the one call out as it seemed reasonable to me that if an engineer was coming to fix one item he could fix the other at the same time, but they now say (i am sure they didnt used to) that the call out charge of £92 is per item! what if it only takes 20 mins to fix one and 40 to fix the other – its still an hours labour surely?! not two hours…… need i go on…
Consumer: If the buttons received too much heat and failed then as long as the appliance has been used strictly according to the instructions it would look like a design fault and should be covered under the sales of goods act even out of guarantee (you have up to 5 or 6 years from purchase to claim – EU 2 year guarantee). However, if it wasn’t installed strictly to the instructions and was too close to the cooker below it wouldn’t be Miele’s fault.
The £500 to replace a pcb on the washing machine is one of the issues I’ve raised several times on this thread. If the washing machine only cost say £600 and it needs a £500 repair, then in my book that’s something you should be able to claim compensation for under the sales of goods act (if the washing machine is less than 6 years old – or 5 in Scotland).
To most people this amount would equate to the appliance being beyond economical repair, and surely it isn’t “reasonable” that a Miele washing machine should need such seriously expensive repairs under 6 years old.
earth continuity are earth loop tests are done for customer safey and for technicians safety,this could potentially save your life!!!
This is comon practice among the whites good industry
Miele has a callout charge of £92
Commercial call out is £138!!!
Labour is 60per hour there after which in some cases is required depending on installation or the size of rooms in which they are placed.
I.e 2 appliances 1 hour on each would cost £152,about the same if you take 6 year old car in for a service at a dealers.
A point to note:
Many major parts on Miele washing machines (electronics, motors etc) are subject to Part Exchange Allowance (PEX) from Miele which can offer a considerable saving ove the list price.
Miele service dealers allow this in their repairs so it is worth enquiring with Miele whether it exists on the part you are being quoted for and what the PEX price will be.
Most repairers would not know about it or pass it on to their customers. So when you are quoted £500 for a repair it bears asking the question ‘who is it quoting this and have you verified it by seeking a comparative quote?’
Thanks for that Mark. Anything that reduces the cost of repairs is good. It’s not common knowledge as far as I know, though if a part is available cheaper using part exchange a good repairer should make the customer aware without them needing to ask.
Are you saying that a Miele agent or Miele themselves would not ever quote around £500 to replace a motor or pcb, or drum bearings on say an 11 to 15 year old Miele washing machine?
I have been agonizing over which washing machine to buy for the last several days, and as sexy as a Miele’s build quality seems to be by all accounts, I just can’t justify to myself spending more than twice as much money on a machine that then locks me into a non-choice of service personnel.
I’m in the software world, and my position is even further towards customer choice than Mr Washerhelp (sorry, I’m not sure what the right name is): I wish manufacturers would hand out technical information to anyone who asks – whether service engineer or Joe Public. Let it be on my head if I screw up the repair due to 10 left thumbs, but I want the choice to be mine. Companies don’t have the right to make a profit – merely the right to pursue profit.
I wish there were more concrete info on exactly which error codes are “sticky”; I can certainly sympathize more easily if the “sticky” faults are safety issues, but I don’t see Miele ponying up any answers to legitimate questions. Epic fail, guys – Immer schlimmer. In the lack of such information, I’m simply not taking the risk that I’ll be hostage to some arrogant take-it-or-leave-it Miele agent charging me half the price of the machine to reset a warning over some trivial, transient issue.
I regret that (AFAIK) ISE are not available in my country (South Africa) as that seems very close to the “open source” approach that I would prefer to see.
slightly off topic but related my Miele 3740 developed a fault the “waterproof” error code. I rang Miele who said it would take ten days for an engineer to come and look at it.
I emptied all the water out of the sump and eventually the error light went off and the machine now works. Now of course there could still be a problem so i will wait a couple of days before cancelling the engineer or it could be a simple matter of an over sensitive sensor, switch or whatever.
I wonder what the Miele engineer would have done and why the user manual did not suggest a simple course of action like mine rather than jst suggest ringing the service department
Hello Jeremy: Sorry for the delay in responding to your question. I think the waterproof error might mean a leak was detected. There is a base in the bottom of the machine and a method of detecting leaks. Did you ask them what the error meant?
The person I spoke to was not offering a technical discussion. I assume her instructions would have been more or less along the lines “this fault requires this intervention”
The fault occurred after the outlet pipe had been frozen. It is reasonable to suppose that this may have led one way or another to a sensor in the base getting wet. What one needs to know as a user is how to remedy that situation and of course whether the remedy is enough.
as a parallel my Audi has a sensor that detects engine speed and uses this as part of the engine management system. It fails about once a year. A reasonable mechanic will charge 15gbp + to diagnose this then a charge for a new sensor then of course a charge for fitting it. The car runs adequaely without it but eventually I pay up and repeat the cycle. THere is lways a price to pay for placing sensitive electronics in dirty wet or vibrationary situations – guess who pays?
I think customers should be entitled to an explanation of an error code’s meaning, but not to any help to fix a fault. I don’t believe we even have any rights to detailed explanations of what could be wrong, just what the error code actually means.
In the old days, when washing machines and other domestic appliances went faulty they simply exhibited symptoms. Observing those symptoms the owner of the appliance could either hazard a guess as to whether the fault was serious or not, or they could consult an appliance engineer and describe the symptoms whereupon he could advise about possible causes and costs.
Appliances now often exhibit mysterious error codes instead. There are no symptoms to observe or describe to an engineer. This isn’t too bad as long as appliance engineers can find out what they mean and then advise as to possible causes and costs. If your local engineer doesn’t know what any error code means – or they do but even after fixing the fault they can’t reset the error code – then all options and choices are removed and you are then forced into dealing with the manufacturer exclusively, which has been discussed at length on this article and comments.
A few error codes are commonly explained in the user manual such as those for timing out on empty or fill, which are both faults that could have a simple explanation such as a tap turned off or a blocked pump filter. My own Miele W3740 ironically displayed an error yesterday, which was very helpful. It displayed something like, “water inlet fault” which made me instantly realise the water was probably frozen as my machine is in the garage. Sure enough after switching on a heating source the error eventually disappeared and the washing machine resumed working. Clearly Miele don’t hide all error codes and do have some helpful ones.
I swear this is true!!. My Miele dishwasher leaked from the back and was diagnosed by an independant as the “solenoid” on the inlet pipe was split in several places. Ok – I phoned Miele up with the problem and they can’t sell me the part as it has electrical connections ( which it does) and will have to be fitted by a Miele engineer for Health and Safety reasons. OK – how much will that be? An hours labour is £98 (gulp) OK – ho much is the part? I’m sorry we can’t tell you that, only the engineer knows!!! Ok – so you’re telling me that I’ve got to pay £98 for an engineer to tell me that the part is ??? and maybe I can’t afford it or justify it? No if you don’t have the repair carried out the cost is just £60. Whether I have the repair done or not will be based on the price of the spare part. Miele are asking me to pay £60 for that information. How can Miele at Abingdon not know the price of a spare part. Words fail me and I will definitely not ever buy Miele again. Buyers beware.
Hello Lynn: It sounds like you were talking to the repairs dept and they don’t sound as if they were very helpful. They should have advised you to ring (or put you through) to the spares department. Try ringing their Spare parts enquiries – 0845 365 6605 and let us know if you fair any better.
I don’t know what policy they have regarding selling spares but you can buy any spares from the other manufacturers as far as I know. There are some Miele washing machine solenoids available on 4washerhelp – Miele solenoids
Hi yes you were right. I went through to spares and the price of the solenoid and inlet hose combined (which come as one part) is £156.13 + VAT = £183.44. I don’t know why they couldn’t tell me that to start with. I think a new dishwasher may be called for. Thanks for your advice. Lynn
It will NOT be Miele. The cost of spares is unacceptably high
Follow up to waterproof error 4 months later still no problem
At the time Washerhelp said
I think customers should be entitled to an explanation of an error code’s meaning, but not to any help to fix a fault. I don’t believe we even have any rights to detailed explanations of what could be wrong, just what the error code actually means.
I wonder what he meant – why should customers not be entitled to help to fix things or to put it another way why should customers buy things from manufacturers who are not helpful.
I frequently fix things that would be uneconomic to fix if we went down the “engineer” route. Nothing wrong with semiskilled workers who attract high fees but I think even they will admit that a significant proportion of the customers could do the job given the information. incidentally semiskilled is not a term of abuse. It represents a higher level of skill than I generally have but is not the skill of a master craftsman or genuine engineer or I would suggest the average tradesman. The ability to follow a manual and replace parts in a systematic manner is useful but can be costly for the consumer.
perhaps we should not be seduced by Miele (and I have three of their products) and we should go back to purely mechanical devices that generally are cheaper to repair because of the absence of electronics.
Welcome back Jeremy: I’m glad to be able to clarify my opinion on the subject.
Manufacturers also repair their own products, which is part of their business model. They shouldn’t be required to help people to fix their own appliances which would be detrimental to their business and doing themselves out of potential income.
No one would expect an independent repair company to be obliged to help consumers to repair their own appliances, but a manufacturer’s repair business is no different to an independent repair company except in that their parent company actually makes the product in question.
Actually preventing people from repairing their own products by withholding essential information though is another matter. Manufacturers should not withhold information that prevents competitors from repairing their products, and should make spare parts available at reasonable prices for those competent to repair their own (or more importantly for independent repairers) to be able to offer an alternative service (to prevent monopolies).
But actually helping consumers to repair their own products with direct detriment to their own business is a bit much to ask.
Lynn: I agree, £183.44 for a water solenoid and hose is far too expensive and I don’t blame you for adopting that attitude. I’ve said before that I really have no idea if these Miele spares prices are just an unfortunate side effect of producing (undeniably) extra high quality appliances, or if they are just charging crazy prices because they think they can – or even perversely think they should.
I’ve said several times in these comments that Miele are now producing more and more products that many people feel are uneconomical to repair when suffering relatively minor faults at unacceptably young ages. As a big fan of Miele products this genuinely concerns me a lot. Your Miele dishwasher is “about 6 years old”, all it wants is a simple water solenoid replacing and yet you are scrapping it because you are not prepared to spend £183 on just one small part. It’s designed for 20 years life.
There is an argument for having it repaired, and hoping to get another 10 or more years from it but many people will see that as a gamble they daren’t take – especially when they can see on Kelkoo you can buy a brand new Beko dishwasher for £181 which although not comparable in quality – is still an entire new dishwasher. When you can buy a complete brand new dishwasher for less than the price of a simple solenoid to let water in on a Miele dishwasher it looks totally mad.
If you employed a Miele engineer to repair your dishwasher it would cost £98 plus the £183, which equals £281, but you can buy a new Bosch SGS43T72 dishwasher currently for £274 – £7 less.
Bosch are a reasonably respected product with 2 year guarantees. Again, no match for Miele, but I can’t believe that Miele dishwashers are so much better, that just one small part should cost more than the finished product of a competitor making budget versions of the product. Neither do I think they are so much better than a Bosch that it should cost 67% of the cost of a new Bosch dishwasher to just buy a solenoid. You can even buy a new Miele dishwasher (Miele G 1022) for £453 at the moment and most people are likely to prefer to buy new than repair at those prices. It’s sad in one way, but most of us are psychologically predisposed to be afraid of spending such large percentages of the cost of a new product on one we already have.
I don’t know if this is a fair analogy, but Mercedes and BMW are German cars of similar reputation and high quality to Miele and similarly superior in most ways to most of their competitors. But if it cost around £9000 to replace say a starter motor in a BMW when you can buy new Ford KA for around the same price wouldn’t everyone think that’s totally crazy?
Hi,
interesting discussion. Re cost of repairs; we have an 11yr old Bosch washing machine that has given up the ghost (just as we have come back from holiday -timing huh!) It has been a great machine & ideally I’d like to keep it going for as long as poss. However, my husband checked it ( he’s an engineer of the it hardware variety) had a good guess what the fault was & called up our local independant repairer/supplier re the part. Being a weekend the repairer was closed, but the supplier could give a quote on replacing the faulty part.
We’ve used them in the past to keep the machine going (as in replacing the clockwork mechanism to keep the controller going last year). He was good enough to let us know that not only could the motor be at fault but that the pcb/controller could have gone as well. A total cost of around £500 not including labour/call-out charges. we have to replace the bosch motor (an internal irreplacable fuse has blown). Oh well, time for a new machine..well must say I’m not impressed in how the quality has dropped in bosch machines.
Ours is fairly sturdy and has stood the test of time very well despite being used 5 days from 7. It is confusing the number of different models and varients there are in different shops from J lewis to currys. Also, every machine seems to need an lcd to let you know where you are in the washing cycle. What happened to the old fashioned just look & listen! Seeing as how it is usually the lcd electronic control board that is probably not going to last, more machines will need resetting codes or replacements.
It is obvious that manufacturers have fallen for the shiny flashing light syndrome and more repairs will be necessary! just more or less what you have been saying on this site. re Miele, i was seriously considering purchasing an entry level £600/£700 model, as most people including me only really use about 3/4 programmes. but I am concerned re the cost of miele parts/repairs (about double that of Bosch), as it will make it probably uneconomic to repair earlier in the machines lifetime. As for info being available, there should be some, as jo public isn’t stupid and could at least attempt (& save some money) some minor repairs themselves. Anything serious call out a specialist. We can’t all afford a rolls royce but we would like to have the quality of one, so why should we be left to the cheap (more likely to break) end of the market.
If we are going to spend lots on a machine the I for one would want it to last and be economic to fix!
Thanks, just thought I should add my tuppence worth .
You see that’s the thing, you spend more on quality gear like Miele and you are less likely to need parts.
But in this modern day and age, things break. I’ve had my Miele a year now and have watched several threads on this blog evolve. I’m still stoked at this Miele, unlikely as it is for a bloke from Aus to get excited about a laundry appliance, it really is good.
So I live in this world where I hope not to need a Miele repairer or spares. I hope I’m not dreaming, but by buying Miele I do believe I’ve put luck on my side.
No affiliation.
Hi,
I do see your point, otherwise we wouldn’t have our 11yr old washer. If it was economical to fix it i would as its been great and was running fine 2 weeks ago. Yes we’ve had to replace things ie; brushes, pump etc But at over £500 for a fix now we do have to buy a new one..now. It’ll get a bit smelly around here otherwise! I am seriously considering a miele, just don’t really want the machine to be uneconomically fixable earlier in its life than it should be. I do take your point re reliability though, in that it shouldn’t break down anyway as it has been made well to begin with. If only other makes were as reliable! You know we’re quite good a making racing cars why not washing machines! (minor rant).
Glad to hear you are happy with yours though. A good recommendation is someone who has had one for a while.
Off now to stare at ‘made in’ labels. Looking forward to the wierd looks.
Just had a call from t’other half. The repairer has advised us to scrap the Bosch. Its had a good life. he recommends Miele. he hardly ever sees any coming back for repair. next in line is Bosch (Siemens are Bosch by another name). Although he has had some of the cheaper end bosch coming in (more flimsy too).
Off now to look.
Hello Kiki: Siemens are higher spec than Bosch, and possibly slightly better build quality. They are owned by the same group that owns Bosch but Bosch are virtually budget machines now and Siemens are supposed to be middle price range.
If you could buy one of the Miele models with a 10 year guarantee that might go some way to alleviate your fears if you thought 10 years was still decent value for a high quality product. Of course it could well last longer than 10 years but the 10 year guarantee should at least prevent it needing a very expensive repair after only 5 or 6 years.
Alternatively I’d recommend the ISE10 as mentioned here (halfway down the right column)
http://www.washerhelp.co.uk/reviews/ISE-overview.html
This is a high quality washing machine that promises cheap spares and plenty of technical support. I’ve tested the machine and would definitely buy one myself. It has 10 year guarantee. It’s expensive though.
‘Companies don’t have the right to make a profit – merely the right to pursue profit.’
I like that. Mind if I use it? ;-)
This is my take on the matter, as a consumer: The door seal on my Miele washing machine needs replacing. Not due to a fault, but because despite regular maintenance washes, it’s gone mouldy and I want to replace it. My machine is still under its 10 year warranty, so not wishing to jeopardise this I called Miele for a price on the part and ask about fitting. £60 plus P&P for the seal and £98 for the labour. This was for the first x hours, I think 1, but to be honest I stopped listening as soon as she said £98! There is no way I am paying £150 for someone to replace a door seal.
When I called Miele I first asked for the price of the seal and the lady immediately enquired as to who was going to fit it. I told her I had someone lined up. She responded saying Miele do not recommend just ‘anyone’ work on their appliances. That’s funny; I thought it was my appliance!
After asking for a quote for Miele to fit it, I asked if the warranty would be effected should anyone other than their technician perform the work. After seeking clarification from someone else, the operator replied, ‘…it might do.’ Very clear and helpful.
I’m now in the process of trying to get a quote from a Miele authorised repairer in my area. I’ve been looking for over an hour and haven’t found any. The last company I spoke to (a Euronics dealer) gave me a mobile number for a repairer. When I asked if he/she were Miele authorised, they replied, with a laugh in their voice, in the negative.
At this rate, I’ll be swapping the door seal myself. I remember as a child watching my father struggle with door seals on his washing machine and I just hope mine will be easier. Of more concern to me is the desire not to leave any traces of the DIY job that may come back to haunt me, should I ever need to avail myself of the machines 10 year warranty again. (I’ve used it once, in the first year of ownership.)
It might be nothing, but let’s not forget the fact that should I buy the part direct, Miele will then have my name and number in their system as buying a door seal but no record of them fitting it. Their systems might not be that elaborate, but I am always worried about companies wriggling out of warranty work, claiming user error, wear and tear, or unauthorised work. And that brings me onto my next point.
When I read Miele’s ‘…designed to last 20 years…’ boast, all I think is, ‘We’re going to charge you an arm and a leg to fix it when it breaks.’
I have a Miele fridge/freezer that has just turned 2 years old. I received a letter from Miele offering to extend the warranty for another 3 years at a cost of £99. Against my better judgement (and advice from others ;-) ) I signed up to it. You might think this is going off topic, but I’ll tell you why it’s relevant: I was worried that should my expensive, designed to last 20 years, fridge break down it’s going to cost me the best part of £100 just to get someone from Miele to look at it, never mind the (significant) cost of any parts. I know there are other avenues for pursuing the repair/replacement of goods in the event of fault, especially of goods that claim to be of superior quality and commanding an elevated price as a consequence (they should reasonably last longer), but we all know how the reality of pursuing such a claim differs to the theory.
So have I fallen for the ‘Miele dream’? Probably. I was originally happy to pay a premium for an appliance (2 of them in fact) on the promise that they’ll last considerably longer than the others. But to then be asked to pay even more to cover future repairs of those products doesn’t sit very well with me. Either it’s well built, or it isn’t! I know it was my choice. No one forced me to buy Miele, or buy the warranty. But sometimes you feel compelled and a limited choice can be no choice. Rock and a hard place, and all that.
Should either of my Miele appliances fail and the cost of repair be as high as the examples already given, then I fear I’ll be scrapping them and going back to buying ‘disposable white-goods’.
I fear my post has become an essay, so I’ll call it a day. If you got this far, thanks for reading.
Thanks for your input Sponge, I read every word. I think the quote you found amusing was possibly meant to mean something other than what it sounds like. I’m not sure exactly what he meant but maybe he just meant that they should have to work at making a profit and don’t have a right to expect to make profit simply because they exist?
I wrote an article exploring the point you make about the extended warranty dilemma regarding a Miele product, which you might find interesting – Should I take out this extra 5 year warranty?
I was going to recommend you try a company I’ve just come into contact with who seem ok and charge around £60 labour. I’ve put links to them on my washing machine repairs section (0800 Repair) but unfortunately although a national company with a large network of franchised engineers they don’t appear to repair Miele products, which is one of the downsides to Miele that I’ve always mentioned in my reviews. Miele appear to think it’s better for them that hardly any one else repairs their products but it’s not better for their customers because when there’s no competition, it makes prices much higher and I don’t believe it’s in Miele’s long term interests that their products are becoming increasingly expensive to repair in relation to the cost of a new one.
Hi Washerhelp,
Thanks for your help & your great site. I had a look at the Ise10, but the drop down door wouldn’t work due to lack of access space, and the nearest place to view one was in Ayr (140 mile round trip).We got lucky though, Curries have a sale on and we managed to get a miele prestige plus 6 for £600. We just have to wait until Sunday when we can try it out. Thanks again.
Hi Kiki: The drop down door on the ISE10 is definitely a potential issue if you have a lack of space in front. Let us know what you think of the Miele, it should be a very good machine.
Having read many of the comments on here, I think Miele white goods and white goods from other manufacturers are almost impossible for the public to repair for one main reason: ONBOARD COMPUTERS!! These are prone to going wrong and the moment the stupid onboard computer malfunctions, this gives the manufacturer of the appliance a perfect monopoly over who can repair it.
From cars to washing machines, everything now has to have a stupid onboard computer that always causes the problems. Things were much easier to fix when parts could just be replaced, now when the computer goes wrong in something, there’s nothing you can do to fix it!
For anyone who knows a little bit about home computers, they advise people to use surge-protector multi-plugs to avoid mains voltage spikes etc. I wonder if the occasional voltage spikes are causing damage to the onboard computers in electrical appliances??
So there you have it. Everything having an onboard computer equals all the of following aggro: A perfect monopoly for the manufacturer – being the only one to carry out repairs. More complexity, means there’s more to go wrong. “Bugs” in the onboard computer’s software which may cause glitches. Need I go on??
It won’t be long before every single white goods manufacturer – except ISE – have the same restrictive practices as Miele. Watch and see!!
Even the trade don’t commonly repair them to be honest WMUser, we’ve always just replaced pcb’s. I may have soldered a few dry joints or soldered a resister back in place, neither of which required any components, but washing machine engineers don’t normally get involved fixing circuit boards nor do they normally want to. Even a Miele engineer would just replace a faulty pcb. The problem is more with the price of them.
jeremy,i too had the waterproof fault on my miele 3740,i accidentaly overdosed with washing powder after changing brands and foam overflowed out the machine,basically it need tilting forward on its front two feet,and all the water thats in a pan in the base will run out,then the waterproof switch will deactivate and my machine worked again,the manual was most unhelpfull “call service department” was all it said,the internet was much more helpfull ;-)
This comment originally made reference to anecdotal evidence of Miele error codes refusing to clear after independent engineers had fixed the fault. After comments from a Miele engineer and lack of actual evidence other than anecdotal I have since completely removed all reference to it. A few of the comments below may be in reaction to the removed section.
With all new washing machines being less reliable and much harder to repair than those made 20 years ago and before, I’m considering that when my washing machine (non-Miele) eventually dies, I will be replacing it with an older washing machine such as a reconditioned Zanussi ZFL1023 or any washing machine from that era. A washing machine that age will be easier to fix by local repairers, use plenty of water for rinsing and has superior build quality compared to today’s plastic throwaway ones.
I would not be surprised if in the next few years, there is a huge demand for these old reconditioned washing machines that can be repaired cheaper and wash and rinse the clothes properly. Best of all, no stupid onboard computers which don’t last very long!
The 2 main downsides are: 1. The spin speed is likely to be no higher than 1000rpm or 1200rpm and, 2. the drum capacity will be smaller. But if these old washing machines can be cheaply repaired every time, it could hit Miele and the other washing machine manufacturers where it hurts – lost profit caused their own greed!!
If someone could recondition Miele washing machines, and spares were reasonably priced enough to facilitate this it would be the perfect answer.
I agree with you Washerhelp (comment #114), but Miele would rather put profit first and charge sky-high prices for spares and repairs. As for older Miele washing machines i.e. those made 10 years ago or earlier, it sounds good. Also the older ones don’t have as many complicated electronics and computers to go wrong – simpler is always better with everything. It seems that Miele and everyone else (maybe not ISE?) likes to add more gimmicks and more things that can increase the chances of something going wrong!
With the exception of ISE washing machines, only old washing machines can be repaired easier without paying stupidly high prices. The Zanussi ZFL1023 from about 1989 (Google search it) looks a good replacement which could be kept going for a long time if spares for it are abundant and if a local repairer would charge little to carry out repairs. I wonder if this would work out cheaper in the long run than constantly buying new washing machines every 5 years or paying Miele’s rip-off prices?
Reconditioned Miele washing machines would be awesome, but it’s not likely to happen because of the cost of spares and difficulty in getting technical information.
Miele spare parts can be extremely expensive, and as demonstrated earlier in this thread this is now threatening the longevity of many of their appliances when some of their owners are being quoted £400 – £500 for example to replace a single part in their 10 year old washing machine. Anecdotal evidence was provided by Stuart in August 2009 when he described how he was quoted over £500 to replace just the heating element and condenser fan in his 11 year old Miele tumble dryer – Comment #78. As a fan of Miele appliances I find this tragic, and a major obstacle to recommending them to all but the rich.
If those prices are accurate surely Miele themselves must cringe at them, and must lament the fact that an 11 year old Miele dryer was scrapped because it needed a couple of parts and they quoted over £500 to fix it? Even now 12 months later you can buy a brand new Miele condenser dryer for a little over £600 with a full 2 year guarantee.
To be fair we don’t know how much of that expense is due to the higher quality build of the spares, and lower economies of scale, the lower turn over of parts because they are of above average reliability etc. and how much – if any is due to marking them up because they think they can as a premium brand.
It’s hard to imagine Miele deliberately marking up their spares, which are already very expensive, simply in order to make them even more expensive because they think they can – but then I would have never believed they would think it a good idea to build appliances with error codes that can only be reset by their own engineers.
If they have always made their spares extra expensive because they are a premium brand in the past (and I genuinely don’t know if that’s the case or not) it’s certainly now become an unsustainable practice. I would prefer to give the benefit of the doubt and say they are simply so expensive because they are so much higher build quality and as such they don’t sell as many, and this makes them very expensive. Either way though, if nothing changes soon it can only damage their reputation and reduce sales.
I hope Miele aren’t going be so slow to adapt to current conditions and markets that they battle on with an unwavering belief that as long as their appliances are high build quality they will flourish.
We still need high quality products – more than ever before – but they must be repairable at prices that make sense to risk investing in. If not, what is the main advantage of paying a premium price for an appliance? They might be often much better to use, and more sophisticated, quieter etc. but only the rich can afford to pay a premium price for those luxuries alone.
For the majority of consumers, sustainability and longevity are very important justifications for paying a premium price when it comes to white goods. In my experience many people can be persuaded to pay a lot more for a washing machine if they are convinced it will last a lot longer, but in order to last 20 years they have to be repairable at prices no where near the entry level replacement cost of a new Miele.
The irony is that never before has it been more desirable for appliances to last 20 years. Never before has Miele had an entire environmental moral world-wide justification for buying their appliance and stopping the destructive cycle of throwaway white goods. The only thing standing in the way of selling millions more Miele’s in my humble opinion is the difficulty and expense in repairing them in the future and the attempts to restrict fair competition by engineering products to need error codes reset by only Miele engineers.
It’s totally appalling that Miele can be so restrictive and I can’t see any reason for Miele ripping off customers for spares and repairs, except for one: GREED! The rich at the top in Miele who want more noughts on their wages at the expense of the poor customer who bought a Miele appliance and find they have to pay millionaire prices to have it fixed, so end up scrapping it prematurely.
I have looked at older appliances such as the Zanussi ZFL1023 and I can see the spare parts are STILL available. If Miele really did care about the longevity of their appliances (which they purport in their marketing), they would charge REASONABLE prices for spares and repairs, not their ridiculously high prices, such as £500 just to fix an 11 year old Miele tumble dryer.
I wish the white goods industry was the same today as it was 20 years ago: when an appliance broke down, the customer paid to have it repaired and kept it going for as long as possible. Today the situation is: the appliance goes wrong, it costs nearly the same price to repair as buying a brand new one WITH A GUARANTEE, so the customer has the appliance scrapped. Manufacturers are making appliances harder to repair and parts requiring whole replacements, example: on cheaper washing machines, a complete outer tub is required if the bearings go wrong (amazing what you learn on whitegoods help and washerhelp :) ).
Perhaps more people should buy “old” reconditioned appliances with an abundant supply of spare parts available and a good repairer to keep it going for many years. ISE claim to make their washing machines cheaply repairable. Miele were once renowned for high quality appliances which were very reliable and well made. It doesn’t look like their appliances are anywhere near as good as they used to be!
Hi WMUser: I try to steer clear of the more emotive descriptions such as those you express, but the truth is, that’s exactly how many consumers would think.
In the 70s and 80s the most successful washing machine and white goods appliance brand in the UK was Hoover. Their machines were well made compared to today’s standards but actually not that well made compared to current Miele appliances. However, every independent repairer in the country repaired them because they had access to all the technical manuals at very reasonable prices as well as cheap spares they could make profit from. The result of everyone repairing them was that competition was keener and labour prices kept lower. This is exactly what the government wants, fair competition which keeps prices to the consumer lower and standards generally higher.
The result was that people who bought Hoover washing machines for example often had them for 15 to 20 years and longer. Not because they were well made, but because they were reasonably well made and repairs were quick and relatively cheap. I had many customers who had their Hoover appliance repaired multiple times over its lifetime because when it broke down (and some of them did quite a lot) they could get a man out very quickly and most repairs were so much cheaper than a new one they wouldn’t dream of anything else but the quicker and cheaper repair.
The best washing machine available in my opinion is currently the new ISE10 which I’ll be reviewing when it comes out shortly. Unfortunately it’s very expensive, but it has a 10 year guarantee and more importantly when it runs out repairs will be very reasonably priced because ISE have a not for profit policy on spares, which is revolutionary. Spares will be marked up only enough to cover costs and they will not be looking to make profits on spare parts sold to the trade. This will make spares and repairs extremely cheap compared to brands like Miele and ensure that repairers can make a decent profit when they carry out repairs.
The problem with virtually all manufacturers is that they have to supply spare parts but they split the spares section off into a separate business, which is charged with making a profit. They have to make a profit on spares. The section selling spares has an interest in them being as expensive as possible which is in direct opposition with the interests of the section selling them. The more expensive the spares the less attractive it is to buy one so the selling side should in theory be really keen for spare prices to be as cheap as possible. So the two sections of the same business have competing and conflicting interests.
The ISE business model is outlandishly revolutionary and of course time will tell if they are geniuses or fools but they look at it like this, they are in the business of selling repairable appliances. They make a bit of money selling them, and in the future repairing them but they aren’t going to try and make profit on spares so that spares will be considerably cheaper than normal. This means their appliances are virtually guaranteed to last much longer than competitors machines even if they are not any better built simply because people will have them repaired far more often – just like the good old days.
I have to say I am 100% behind and inspired by this. It’s very early days yet but what’s not to like?
As an owner of a Miele washing machine and dishwasher bought for the usual reasons of wanting something that would last be environmentally sound etc. i am in sympathy with the main thrust of the comments here. As I discovered with the washing machine there are alternatives to following Miele Advice. The innovation of tipping the machine forward to empty water from the sump worked fine and we have had no problem since.
On parts – our dishwasher hoses were eaten through by rodents. The inlet hose, which incorporates a solenoid costs around £200 to replace from Miele but you can get something else that will probably do the job for around £100. In the end i used a bit of duck tape etc. to neaten things up and there wasn’t a leak. The inlet hose (Miele £26) was replaced in the end by a £2.99 hose and all is well. like others I have been disappointed by Miele’s approach to customer care. I thought I was buying a better relationship but actually I have found the guarantees rather pointless and have felt it better to fend for myself.
If Miele owners weren’t charged extortionate amounts of money for repairs and spares, this blog article wouldn’t exist. I don’t care what anyone tries to tell me, I cannot accept the high charges that Miele AND the other manufacturers charge, which forces owners to scrap and buy brand new.
I’m sure the industry could work the way it did in the 1970′s and 1980′s as you described in your post Washerhelp comment #118. We’re all being told how we should “protect” the environment, so why aren’t these do-gooders putting a stop to the huge numbers of washing machines ending up on the scrap heap because they are too expensive to repair?
I think Miele would make MORE profit by making the price of spares and repairs affordable – why? Because if Miele charged reasonable prices, people wouldn’t be scared of very high charges and facing the dilemma of “do I have it repaired or do I replace it with a new one?”. If Miele are not careful, they will get a bad name and more people will be put off buying their appliances. Maybe they only want rich people to buy their products?
Why can I still find spare parts on the Internet for washing machines that are “old” e.g. 15 – 20 years old – parts that are reasonably priced? Does that prove you CAN make washing machines last a long time and allow them to be repairable until they eventually can’t be repaired? If manufacturers – especially Miele – were making a small profit on spares, they would continue to be making profit on “after sales”.
I agree WMUser: If Miele’s were to remain as well made as they are now but with competition properly opened up and reasonable spares prices they could possibly double sales or even end up dominating the market. The amazingly high cost of spares and the fact independents don’t repair them have long been the only things holding not only me, but almost every independent repairman in the UK back from commonly recommending them to people asking our advice.
Unfortunately they’ve survived so far as an almost niche product with relatively low volume sales and premium prices so they may find it difficult to contemplate such radical moves. However, they can’t keep claiming they are designed to last 20 years if their spares and aftersales prices mean a 20 year life is increasingly no longer economically viable in many cases.
Let’s face it — at Miele prices for service — and even for parts — Miele machines are effectively throwaway machines like most of the rest. The question is one of how long do you get out of it, before it breaks down?
I’m on my second Miele washing machine, the first having broken down this year, after nine years. No great complaint about the fact of a breakdown after nine years of hard use. However, when I removed the failed pump, it was perfectly obvious that the impeller shaft had fractured because of grossly inadequate design and poor-quality materials. Not what one could reasonably expect when a replacement from Miele would have cost close to £100.
In the event I fitted a non-Miele replacement pump, bought a new Miele machine and moved the newly-repaired (and working!) one to our holiday cottage.
Sadly, it no longer worked after transit — and yes, of course the transit bars had been inserted for the journey! A little reasoning showed that one of the inlet solenoids wasn’t opening fully. Another nasty little trick — all three solenoids are part of an integral unit on the inlet manifold — and a replacement is apparently £79. A few minutes with a multimeter allowed me to put a jumper across so that the prewash solenoid operates whenever the main solenoid is supposed to operate — I don’t think my wife ever used the prewash facility anyway — and she can still use it, so long as she remembers to add a second load of washing powder after the pre-wash has filled the machine.
Sadly, the reality is that Miele are something of a gamble — if you can fix it yourself and there are third-party parts available, OK — otherwise, ditch it.
ISE? Don’t know how they’ll shape up. Reasonably-priced spare parts is a great attraction, but the nearest dealer is well over 100 miles away, so who knows to what extent a guarantee may be meaningfully honoured in the real world? Or indeed what horrendous delivery charges may be incurred for the machines themselves?
I’m sorry but didn’t have time to read all of those 122 comment but this one comes from an Ex Miele engineer (25 years) who ran his own repair company for the next 10 years on all makes of machines. Firstly there is a massive difference in the Miele quality and the so-called competition. Even the likes of Bosch are now made in Italy….need I say any more! The Miele is very nearly over engineered…the main bearings are 4 times bigger than a Indesit type machine!…(now you know why they only last 18 months!!) Yes a Miele will last 20 + years but I think we forget how often we now use them. No longer once a week but more like once a day…so the life span will depend on that. Spares can be expensive but there are copy parts out there..not the same quailty but would get you a few more years on a old machine at a lower cost. Service costs are the probably the same as any major manufactuer..but there are options… the Miele approved local dealer, trained by Miele but with lower local overheads. The service dept will even give you their details if you ask! And even ex Miele engineers are out there running their own businesses…but don’t ask Miele for their phone numbers…we don’t exist in their eyes!!
But all said and done… and now,without a staff discount, I will still buy a Miele, there is nothing to compare. The Germans say we can’t afford to buy cheap!!! Why?..because in the long term it will cost you more.
Just found this list of approved Miele dealers on pdf file. http://www.miele.co.uk/customer/DealerDirectory.pdf
Thanks for your contribution Mike. It’s always good to get opinions from people in the trade. You don’t actually broach the topic of this article though, which is that current Miele practice is to restrict who can repair their appliances by building in a system whereby some error codes once triggered can not be reset by anyone except a Miele engineer or agent.
Which means that if you are no longer a Miele agent even you could fall foul of this practice. There is anecdotal evidence from an independent repairer that even a Miele washing machine with a simple pump blockage could not be reset by him, and his customer had to pay not only him to repair the simple fault but a Miele engineer £130 to come and reset the error code.
If I’m honest I think its true that Miele keep a lot of control over their service and spare practices. I.E.You will only get a discount on spares if you are authorised dealer. If you are able to get a copy of the spares part CD you will not be able to access it unless you have an approved code, only available to Miele trained engineers.
I’m not up to speed on the latest machine but it doesn’t surprise me that some error codes are only resetable via the Miele laptop programme. But I have come across this with other manufactuers. I had an example of a AEG with a burnt out drain pump, easy enough to replace but the electronic was showing a fault code which could not be reset. It was only a matter of pushing certain button in a set sequence. That informantion is not available to anyone except AEG trained personel. And this was probably 15 years ago!! I think your find all bigs firms have gone that way inc Mercedes, VAG etc.. heard that you cannot even change the brake pads on them now with out resetting them via a merc laptop programme!! The day of the independant engineer in all service industries is shrinking fast.
But my comment still holds, that there is an alternative i.e the local Miele dealer network.. must be cheaper option that the £130 fix!! But still very annoying to the DIYer and small independant engineers. Restrictive…I have to say YES!!
The list of dealers given by Mike is interesting but even that, I think, not the full picture.
One of the few things which can be said in favour of the service charges made by Miele, is that they’re consistent across the UK with the exception that
i) the charges in London are higher
and
ii) Northern Ireland is not included as it is covered within the Irish servicing arrangements.
That means that service in remote areas may very well be much less expensive arranged through Miele than the same service at the dealer’s own rates if travel were to be charged up at a mileage rate — which might well be the case if it were arranged directly if a dealer were to be called on to provide service in an area outwith his listed dealership coverage. Miele use dealers to provide service in some areas where Miele have no service personnel employed and which are also beyond the dealer’s dealership area, sometimes by hundreds of miles.
Mike wrote
“’m not up to speed on the latest machine but it doesn’t surprise me that some error codes are only resetable via the Miele laptop programme. But I have come across this with other manufactuers. I had an example of a AEG with a burnt out drain pump, easy enough to replace but the electronic was showing a fault code which could not be reset. It was only a matter of pushing certain button in a set sequence. That informantion is not available to anyone except AEG trained personel. And this was probably 15 years ago!! I think your find all bigs firms have gone that way inc Mercedes, VAG etc.. heard that you cannot even change the brake pads on them now with out resetting them via a merc laptop programme!! ”
With regard to those error codes and resetting the electronics, I find it amazing that the required info for getting control boards back to their default settings hasn’t been figured out — some of these boards remain similar for years.
Clearly from what appears earlier in this list, buying a refurbished board from Germany is going to be cheaper than calling a Miele engineer.
Are these fault settings contained in some EPROM? Will the trick which works with some coded car radios (keep the radio in the freezer for a week) work to make them lose the unwanted soft error codes? Are they volatile? — in other words, will a simple power off for a number of hours cause the code to be lost? This is the age of the internet — surely with the artificially-high price of Miele boards and service this is the sort of information that’s worth experimenting to discover and then worth sharing?
We have just had an engineer out today from Miele to check our broken down Miele W310. Call out £60-00 inc VAT. Motor failed, reported as segment lifted on motor. Quote for new motor an astonishing £30-00, Call out £98-00, new motor £293-00 (Total 421-51 inc VAT. The machine cost about £560 circa 6 to 7 years ago. The engineer quoted that the motor had done only 6,130hrs, off the record stated it should last about 10,000hrs.
I think this is a latent defect as I would not expect it to fail at under 10yrs, you would expect the brushes to wear out first before the segments on the ring distort and lift.
The product may be portrayed as reliable but the fact is that they do go wrong and they are very expensive to repair. The risk is if we fix it that something else similarly expensive goes wrong soon after. A new machine seems most sensible!
Hello Simon: Although not strictly on topic I’ve strayed into the area of Miele repairs costing too much several times myself in these comments. This is something that could eventually destroy Miele’s business model, which is to sell at a high quality product at a premium price with the promise that their products will last much longer and therefore be a good long term investment.
It doesn’t matter how well made they are, and how long they are “designed” to last if they are felled well before that time by being uneconomical to repair.
Sadly this type of restrictive practice is rife in almost
all types of retail sector: Try getting an upmarket Wrist Watch repaired and you will find that most of the Independant Watchmakers will not accept for repair as they will certainly say
that the importer/manufacturer will ”refuse to supply” any parts
that may be necessary. I have had problems in this area and on contacting manufacturers to complain -”you get short shrift”.
My view is that once the goods have been purchased it is the owners right/choice as to whom they seek out to perform any repair or maintainance and to deliberatley obstruct this is unreasonable:
It would almost give the implicaton that the purchase is tied into
any future maintainace.
I actually wonder how many buyers would reconsider purchasing a particular product if this situation was made absolutely clear at the outset??
That’s also the government’s line Stephen, which is why they originally set up the monopolies and mergers commission which later evolved into the competition commission.
You are right in that this practice is rife in many places. Apple and Microsoft are good examples. However, Microsoft have been hit with severe penalties for anti competitive behaviour a few times, and relatively recently the car industry was ordered to stop their restrictive practices over independent repair garages when they took out a class action against them.
I would hate to think anyone got the impression Miele are the only appliance repair company that do this, I have pointed out several times (including within the original article) that others do the same. However, I think Miele have been much more successful at it than most other manufacturers and these days the impact on their repairability is potentially very serious as they are selling basic models that discerning but not rich people are buying only to find they can’t afford to have them repaired later because there is no competition and Miele have a virtual monopoly on spares and repairs.
My personal opinion on this whole subject is that the governments tend to turn a bind eye to a lot of this practice because ultimately it benefits the business’s involved and lets them make lots more money, which means they generate more employment and potentially pay more taxes and generate a lot more VAT. The government have dual interests to protect and this subject puts them in a conflicting position. If they want to help businesses thrive, which is generally good for the country as described above they want to cut them lots of slack but if they want to help consumers they have to reign them in.
I think they only tend to deal with restrictive practices when they are blatant, when they end up damaging the economy or when consumers (or consumer groups) complain enough.
I predict this sort of practice in the appliance repairs industry will be stopped, and soon.
@Washerhelp
“I predict this sort of practice in the appliance repairs industry will be stopped, and soon.”
Our government are not interested in putting a stop to these cartels and monopolies unless British companies are found guilty of it (Miele are German). The European Commission are always more interested in pursuing this illegal monopolistic behaviour and actually doing something about it. For all its faults, at least the EU fined Microsoft heavily for anti-competitive behaviour in the past and the remedies imposed does benefit all EU member states. Your best bet would be to write to the European Commission and explain very clearly what the appliance manufacturers are doing – I don’t just mean Miele alone, I’m talking about all of them EXCEPT ISE.
I would call Miele’s behaviour “vendor lock-in”, and what constitutes this can be read on the Wikipedia page about vendor lock-in: “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_lock-in
As great as Miele’s products are when brand new, they are not so great when they do break down, which seems to be more frequent now. As with ALL other manufacturers of washing machines (maybe excluding ISE?), reliability is very poor compared to 20 years ago. It’s disgusting to see very new appliances scrapped as they are too expensive to repair, not just Miele, but all brands like Hotpoint, Indesit etc.
Hello WMUser: You might find this interesting
OFT launches Domestic Electrical goods review
Have read this thread with much interest.About to buy our first house and kicthen will need renovating.The only thing we have settled on was that our washing machine was going to be a Miele.
Now I am having second thoughts! I tend to have become(dont we all?) more cynical about companies-any companies.I too am now worried about the actual QUALITY of Miele washing products(Yes,I am sure still better than other brands,but are they THAT much better now)and more worried about repair costs and restrictive practices.
We will still probably buy a Miele BUT if it does go “wrong” and need a repair or repairs within a few years,then like another poster on here,we will most likely never buy another.I have read the brochure and they do boast/claim they expect their machines to last 20 years but if it costs “an arm and a leg” to make this happen(in on going repairs) what is the point?
It will be a case of “suck it and see” I guess.
It’s been interesting watching these comments accumulate, and my opinion is hardening re Miele. I think you really have to separate the prestige / status symbol aspects of owning a Miele appliance, from their actual functional advantages. I briefly considered buying a Miele washing machine, and I can’t say that prestige wasn’t a part of the reasoning.
But if you want to reason coldly about the “business sense” of buying one of these gold-plated machines, consider:
* The future value of money. You’re paying more now in the hope of paying less later.
* If it costs double, it has to last more than twice as long to be worthwhile.
* If, like me, you run a cycle at most once or twice a week, I expect that just about any machine will last you a large fraction of a lifetime, if you look after it.
* If you’re honest, is your time really worth so much that it’s better to pay a few hundred pounds more now in order to avoid one extra breakdown over 10 years? I know my time isn’t worth that much.
* I don’t know what materials you folk use, but here in South Africa everyone I know has a dinky plastic outer tub, and never has that been a problem. Do you really need the white goods equivalent of the audio nuts’ gold plated speaker wire?
* Not really a business requirement, but personally, I found the Miele facades ugly, and confidence-uninspiring: the demo models looked like the panel buttons would abrade away or break off within a year!
At least if you’re planning a new kitchen your washing machine will not be a “distress purchase” which you need immediately.
The good news is that Miele machines are relatively reliable and there are pattern parts available for pumps, one of the most common failure points.
ISE machines weren’t much of an option for me until one contributor to these forums volunteered a willingness to supply in areas where there was no dealer. Though I’m not in the market at this moment. At least machines built from standard bits are not so likely to be thrown out because of non-availability of spares.
This is not Miele, but Siemens is supposed to be a good quality brand made to last too & I thought you might like to know about my experience….
I have found that Siemens washing machines also have secret codes that only Siemens engineers have access to. I am all for having well qualified staff etc etc & wouldn’t mind the “monopoly” if there were plenty of Siemens engineers to go round, BUT I have waited 10 days for a “proper” engineer to come & he still hasn’t managed to fix my machine! I now have to wait again until sometime between 7am and 3pm on Monday for him to return(today is Thurs).
So, at the very least I will have been waiting for 2 weeks for my machine to be mended. In actual fact it’s longer because my machine broke earlier, but I didn’t call because of the Christmas holidays. At this moment I’m finding it extremely hard to justify the extra initial cost of the machine (Siemens WM12E468GB) & warranty vs the inconvenience, time spent/wasted & cost of the launderette & numerous phone calls currently being incurred.
I could have bought and had a new washing machine installed by now! (But can’t because under the warranty I have to wait for the Siemens engineer to either fix it or write it off) I really did not spend that extra money 3 years ago to be spending weekends at the launderette now!!!!!
My very nice local engineer would come to my rescue, but Siemens won’t advise him on what their secret codes mean. I won’t be buying Siemens (or Bosch) again.
hello anyone who reads this. im a miele trained engineer working for a miele authorised dealer. just to let any one no that if a fault accurs on any miele machine the appliance does not need reseting by miele. as long as the fault has been sorted it will work. for exsample if the heater goes on a washing machine it will bring up a fault. as long as that problem has been rectified for exsample new heater element fitted it will work and not bring a fault up again,
Hello James and thanks for contributing. I’m grateful for comments from all points of view especially people in the trade. Unfortunately I have a lot of anecdotal evidence from engineers that this isn’t true for some error codes and on later models. I know for sure it isn’t true for some AEG error codes too, which remain after the fault is fixed and have to be re-set.
An engineer at a recent national trade meeting stood up and described how he cleared a pump filter blockage on a newish Miele washing machine but could not clear the error code. He even telephoned Miele from the customer’s house and got the customer to speak to them too but they told him his customer would have to get Miele engineer out to reset it at £130 cost, which is what she had to do.
what you are saying is completly un true. i dont no about aeg. but on miele appliances as long as the fault is repaired the fault code will no longer come up for the customer. it will stay in the machine memory and can only be deleted with a laptop.but will still work. i repair older models up to the latest ones. your referance to the filter being blocked. would only of brout up a drainage fault. and what most likely happened to the engineer who unblocked the filter is as he probly had lack of knowledge of miele appliances. is when he let the water run out from the filter it proberly ran back into the base of the machine activating a float switch bringing up a differant fault. usaslly 2 red light or on more exspensive models a fault code.
Hello James: When you say what I am saying is completely untrue, which bit do you mean? All I’m saying is that you cannot clear some error codes without getting a Miele engineer with his laptop. You can’t mean that is untrue because you go on to confirm exactly that when you say the error code, “will stay in the machine memory and can only be deleted with a laptop”. I’ve not said the machine refuses to work when a fault is fixed (although I have said in my main article that I’m unclear as to whether the machine refuses to work or just works OK but still displays the error code).
The engineer in question is a competent engineer and would know the difference between the same error code refusing to disappear and a new one being triggered.
Can you confirm that if a customer or independent engineer fixes some faults (including the reported blocked pump filter) then the error code remains in the display or flashes up each time the machine is used even after the fault has been cleared? And that to clear this error a Miele engineer with laptop is required?
sorry i may of mis understood. what im saying is if the fault is repaired the error code/light will disapear from the customers view. and the machine will just keep a log in its memory that only a miele engineer would be able to bring up again and delete. there is no way a fault would stay on display when the fault has been repaired.
Hello James: If that’s the case then I can’t imagine any independent engineer would have an issue with that. No one would be complaining that an old error code remained in memory. If they fixed the fault and the error code disappeared from view I can’t imagine anyone ever complaining.
The main issue is that some of the codes are apparently secret, and engineers or customers can’t get hold of them. The other issue is the resetting of error codes. The recent anecdotal evidence that an independent engineer had to phone Miele asking how to reset the error code resulting in the customer having to call Miele engineer out to do it as they refused to tell him couldn’t be explained by a simple error code in the memory that isn’t displayed to the customer. The engineer wouldn’t have been concerned if the error code was only displayed in diagnostics mode and the customer certainly wouldn’t have paid £130 for a Miele engineer for that either.
what im saying is completly true. an error code will only stay in view if the fault hasnt been repaired. if you are refering to the engineer who cleaned the filter on a miele washing machine then a fault still accured. he proberly undid the filter allowed water to run back in the machine couseing a water in base fault. also miele do not charge £130 for a call out!. i personally think if engineers are haveing trouble with repairing miele appliances it down to a lack of knowledge of miele products. nothing to do with fault codes.
James – earlier inthe blog you mention the problem of water running back into th base of the appliance when the engineer cleans the drain. I have a Miele and the ‘check drain’ and ‘check inlet’ warning lights are flashing so i have followed the instuctions in the manual to clean the drain filter and the water supply filter but the warnings are still flashing – what should i do ?
Hello James: Your theory about him causing a second error code is possible, but it presupposes that the engineer was incompetent and not even bright enough to notice a second error code had occurred which is an unfair assumption common with Miele engineers and dealers. There are many highly competent, highly moral and very professional independent engineers lots of whom are members of trade organisations.
What Miele ought to be concerned about, but apparently aren’t, is the damage being done to sales by the perception, rightly or wrongly, that their machines my generate error codes which stop the machine working or remain on display even after the machine has been competently repaired by a non-Miele-approved engineer.
The ought further to be concerned by the fact that some of their original parts aren’t that’ great — certainly the impeller shaft failure I repaired on a nine-year-old machine was as clear an example of poor quality as I’ve ever seen and every reason to go for a pattern part from UK Whitegoods rather than a Miele part at several times the price.
hello dominic, yes those lights do mean water in base. you can tilt the machine to the left and it will tricle out. doit slowly and dont tilt over to much, also make sure power is off. this will clear the fault, its only worth doing this if you developed this fault when cleaning the filter.
I am making urgent enquiries to make absolutely sure that every single bit of information on this article is accurate. The sources I used should be very reliable, but in response to James’ comments I need to double and even triple check.
As mentioned several times before I am a big fan of the quality of Miele products and wrote this article reluctantly as I believed it contained important consumer information needed to help customers make informed buying decisions.
Maybe the best cure to avoid being ripped off with Miele’s washing machine repairs and spares is to buy an ISE washing machine instead? I may consider the ISE 10 in future (model ISEW1607W), not a Miele. Also, the ISE is said to rinse properly (see comment #479 on the rinsing blog):
http://www.whitegoodshelp.co.uk/wordpress/why-cant-modern-washing-machines-rinse-properly/
For those of you considering buying a new washing machine, is the ISE a better option than a Miele in the long run?
Despite asking in a very well attended trade forum no one has come forward to confirm the anecdotal “evidence” I previously referred to saying some Miele error codes could not be reset by independent engineers (discussed in some of the recent comments above) so I’ve completely removed all reference to it from my article and subsequent comment.
Having said that I directly emailed Miele’s chief engineer asking if it was true or not but received no reply/denial either. Due to the current complete confusion on the subject I feel it’s best to give Miele the benefit of the doubt on that particular issue.
Hmmm those dammed computers!
Well let me remind you; before them we had programmers with a bank of contacts operated by a clock mechanism driven by a clock motor.
Clock motors failed; clock mechanisms got sticky and contacts became damaged by repeated operations. Resulting incidents of engineers being called to machine faults of this nature in the 60′s and 70′s were far far higher than those we see to day to computerised programmers and generally the ‘no moving parts’ benefits of ‘chip controlled’ programmers in the late 70′s and on were hailed as a modern marvel.
Nice to see Miele being cleared of most of the charges unfairly (in my opinion) laid at their doorstep; turns out its an industry wide issue if its an issue at all.
Lets see what the Competition Comission come up with.
I’ve since spoken directly to Miele’s chief engineer who has told me all Miele error codes should reset after a fault has been cleared.
I remember the old programme timers well Mark. In the late 70s some were pretty unreliable but by the late 90s I found them to be quite reliable. The Hoover Crouzet timers had problems with the timer motors failing, but whilst manufacturer dealers and engineers could only offer to replace the entire programme timer resourceful independent engineers sourced the small coil and offered a perfectly good repair at a fraction of the cost.
Computer controlled appliances are a great advancement bringing far greater control and lots of safety features. They should also be reliable if made properly due to lack of moving parts. The problem is that many of the cheap washing machine pcb’s are poor quality and aren’t necessarily any more reliable than the old mechanical timers. This shouldn’t affect Miele’s, the only problem with Miele pcb’s is their horrendous price if they do go wrong, which many people would deem too expensive to replace and scrap a well made machine which is possibly only half way through its potential lifespan. I personally thing that horrendously expensive repairs are one of the biggest threats to Miele unless they decide they can survive selling only to very rich people.
its like reading 2x one-sided arguments!
miele, as an example, are a nightmare appliance to deal with, as an independent. Their trade part prices to the independent trade is ridiculous. £38+vat for a dishwasher waste hose!!!
and if you are not one of their authorised engineers with access to info and specialist training, it is quite difficult appliance to suss out. however, by the same token, if you have the nous to figure out a machine by yourself, then imo you have earned the right to offer customers your ability to service their miele. however, i do think think genuine trade should be given far better spares pricing. we went out to look at a £600 tumble dryer. it was 7 years old, it needed a new motor as it had burnt a coil out. £400… to us. that is BER and where the real beef with miele comes from. had that been say, £200, which is still 3x price of say a zanussi t/d motor, it would still have been an economical repair. but no. so it was scrapped! such a shame!
dave: That is exactly the point I’ve made several times. Miele appliances are increasingly not lasting anywhere near as long as they claim they are designed for – simply because they are so ridiculously expensive to repair. The main advantage of paying so much extra for a high quality brand is gone if after 7 years it’s cheaper to scrap it!
With the extreme popularity of the Internet, Facebook and other social communications they need to stop this outrage fast or they could find their brand’s reputation for longevity seriously damaged.
I suspect their trade prices are designed to discourage anyone else from dealing in them. You can’t make enough profit either selling Miele spares or doing Miele repairs without a proper markup on spares.
I remain a fan of Miele, I criticise because I care.
A fascinating discussion. I can’t contribute anything meaningful about Miele washing machines as we’ve never owned one. However we have had three Miele vacuum cleaners over the past 20-25 years and our quality experience with these might read across to an extent onto the washing machines.
No.1 cleaner is now relegated to the workshop/garage, No.2 is our main one downstairs and No.3 is a smaller one kept upstairs and doesn’t get much use. The first two have needed some repairs which I carried out myself (no new parts needed). No.1 had simply done years of work, in use almost every day, and was generally wearing out (this was at the 20-year stage). I am very happy with the service it gave in the house, and continues to give in the workshop/garage now that I’ve given it a bit of an overhaul.
No.2, bought about five years ago to replace No.1 as the main machine, was quieter and nicer to operate but when I removed a full bag from it when it was a couple of years old, part of the machine came away with the bag! I managed to get it back together again but, comparing it with No.1 machine, it was apparent that the cost-reduction engineers had been at work. I decided at that point not to blindly buy Miele again but to compare all makes because what was the best yesterday may not be the best today. We may still go for Miele when the time comes of course!
Back to washing machines. We bought a Zanussi washer/drier in 1995 and it has been in use several times every week apart from when we are on holiday (and it then suffers a marathon session when we return!). It has performed without any problem whatsoever in all that time, 16 years, until last weekend. First the spinning function failed to work and now the washing operation is playing up.
I took a look inside the Zanussi this morning as I’ve always done my own repairs on domestic appliances and cars, etc, but have to admit that I don’t fancy tackling this one. So we’ll replace it with one that our new son-in-law no longer needs, which happens to be a Hotpoint Aquarius that he’s used for four years without any trouble. It may not last a great deal longer (we used to buy Hotpoint in the 1960s and early ’70s via a relative who worked there, but they always gave trouble [the machines, not the relative!]) but I’ll feel far more comfortable with a machine that cost £220 new than with one from a greedy Miele. No doubt the Hotpoint won’t be as refined as a Miele, but I detest rip-off spares pricing so we’ll at least give it a try.
Well I haven’t read ALL the comments but I have an answer to the fault codes issue.
All fault codes are stored in the memory, & can be deleted either by laptop, or going to the memory by pressing a series of buttons in the correct order.
I think the confusion is if a particular fault occurs – when the pressure chamber gets blocked.
This means the electronics are unable to monitor the water levels, causing an inlet fault, or a drain fault, or both. This CAN cause the element to blow, as the machine can heat with no or very little water inside.
Cleaning the blockage & clearing these faults would make no difference as the electronics still think there is water in the machine, even when it’s empty.
A laptop would THEN need to be connected, to re-calibrate the sensor back to zero.
Meile dishwasher.
Six years old.
F85 appears at the end of each wash. Not mentioned in the manual. Repair guys charges me $77 AUS to tell me that it’ll cost $999 to fix.
New Meile’s on sale for $999 anyway.
TWENTY YEARS THEY TOLD ME!!
Was it a reputable engineer Daniel? Mark made the point a while back that sometimes people who don’t fully understand Miele appliances can be tempted to make a ridiculous repair price up knowing the customer wouldn’t have it repaired to extricate themselves from the situation.
However, even so, that would rarely happen if Miele technical information was properly available. I have a “fault code bible” compiled over several years by many independent engineers and repair agents yet there is only one entry for Miele fault codes and no mention of F85 so I can’t give any clue as to what the code could mean.
It’s this lack of information and independent repairers unable to offer lower price repairs combined with the horrendous spares prices that is damaging Miele’s reputation for longevity – the biggest and best reason for “investing” in Miele in the first place.
Followers of this thread may be interested to know I’ve updated much of the main article to reflect the fact that subsequent comments have broadened the subject onto the equally – or even more important – issue of the longevity of Miele appliances . Please re-read the main article above if you haven’t read it for a while.
I wrote on 10th August that our Zanussi washing machine had run for 16 years without any problem, that the washer and spinner functions had just now ceased operating, and I was intending to replace the machine – at least temporarily – with a 4-year-old Hotpoint that my new son-in-law no longer needs.
However, I decided after all to take a look inside the Zanussi as I expected the fault to be worn brushes. And that’s exactly what it was (as Washerhelp’ would no doubt have guessed in an instant!). The machine looked otherwise in very good order so I’ve ordered a new brush set.
No fault codes to attend to, no Miele £100-odd call-out charge to pay, and the new brush set has set me back less than £11 including 1st Class post. I need to add on some three hours of my own labour (I’m well into retirement and not a quick worker) but I get great satisfaction from D-I-Y.
I almost always go for quality over price, but I remain to be convinced that Miele is necessarily the best option for everyone. Would I have been able to repair a Miele so easily and at such a low cost?
Incidentally, my estimated three hours D-I-Y labour includes giving the machine a general ‘clean and inspect’, inside and out.
Further incidentally, I do like the promise given by the ISE washing machines. Definitely one for our short list when the time comes.
F85 is a problem with the main wash pump.
I work for mike in the service department, and it is categorically untrue that a miele engineer would be required to reset any fault code on any miele machine. Anybody can call the service department and be told the cause of a fault code over the phone, although details of fixing the problem will not be given, this is down to liability issues regarding both damage to the machine and health and safety. any spare part will be sold to anybody, however we will always state that we cannot guarantee the part will resolve the fault if the problem has not been diagnosed by a miele trained engineer, as such guarantees or refunds are not offered. miele do not prohibit anybody from repairing a machine and as already stated we will give the meaning of a fault code to anybody over the phone, but will only guarantee work by miele authorised repairers. miele account holders (dealers) are provided with parts at trade price, they have no legal obligation to provide parts at this cost to anybody else. most importantly every effort will be made to negate the need for an engineers call out if possible, most faults are caused by incorrect usage of the appliances, if correct installation and maintenance as described in the operating manual are followed from the start, instead of just once a fault occurs, then the need for an engineer becomes greatly reduced, and finally to confirm the oxy sensor f90 fault on ovens will always be resolved at no cost to the customer,
An f85 is caused by a problem with either the flow meter or citculation pump, 95% of the time it is found to be something which shouldn’t be put through the machine blocking the circ pump, most frequently cling film, if this is the case it would simply require the removal of the blockage, the circ pump is not customer accessible, so it is something we would advise one of out engineers be sent out, it is likely it would only cost a call out charge as no spares would be needed, however this would be impossible to confirm without an engineer looking at the machine
Thanks for your input Aja, it’s very welcome. I’m interested exclusively in the truth and nothing more. Can an independent repairer or repair company buy Miele spare parts at a standard industry discount? On Hoover and Hotpoint appliances for example they get at least 20 – 25% on most parts and can get 40% or even higher on other parts. And can they buy manuals or technical cds, explaining all error codes in detail designed to assist any engineer to be able to fix any fault?
They will get no discount on parts unless you’re a registered dealer, any company can request to become a miele service dealer, and receive the training to get access to the discount and technical assistance we actively offer 3rd party repairers to customers when they call in for an engineers request, to ensure we havd given all options to the customer,
The fault codes on a machine indicate the problem the machine is experiencing but not always the cause, and we cannot offer further assistance on a fault code other than the description, this is because we open ourselves up to complaints if we advise action on a machine to someone that isn’t trained, who then damages the machine or themselves further, it is also impossible to guarantee someone who is untrained, has diagnosed the fault properly unless weve looked at the machine aswell, but as I’ve said miele will happily train anyone to work on the machines if they request, they can then be trained at head office and authorised to work on appliances for which they can charge what they like, it is impossible to suggest miele are creating a monopoly when they actively suggest the use of 3rd parties who we make no money from in terms of call out or labour,
As previously stated, most common faults wd attend are normally caused by incorrect usage of the machine, if the maintenance suggested in the manual is regularly carried out, most faults can be avoided, the problem is people don’t feel like they should have to maintain their machine, and only try the maintenance once the fault has been caused, instead of regularly to prevent faults,
Many thanks for your input Aja. However, this is my point exactly. Miele restrict access to error codes, technical information and spare parts for the independent trade in general.
When it comes to repairs, consumers believe that “all options” are -
The manufacture or their dealer
A national franchise or retailer such as 0800 repair, Comet, Curry’s etc.
A local independent repairer
Themselves if competent
All of these options are available to anyone who buys other appliances such as Hoover, Hotpoint, Zanussi, Bosch etc.
Although some other appliance manufacturers are increasingly restricting the independent trade in various ways (and I’ve criticised them too) I don’t know of any other manufacturer that will not give any trade discount to legitimate businesses repairing or selling spares (If you do please let me know and I will advise people about it). But more importantly, none of them are claiming their appliances are built to last 20 years but have repair prices that sometimes make that impossible to achieve.
Don’t shoot the messenger
I hope you can read my reply and try to see it as coming from someone who genuinely cares about the Miele brand and respects how they have stuck to building quality appliances, but who sincerely believes that Miele are damaged by current levels of crazy repair and spare parts prices and the lack of competition in repairs. I believe that in the past, their methods have served them well, so it’s understandable they’d try to stick with it, but times are changing. The Internet is a powerful thing, and people are sharing information on unprecedented levels.
Sooner or later enough people will have heard about frightening Miele repair costs, outrageously expensive parts, and of some Miele owners scrapping their appliances because they are too expensive to repair to cause damage (as evidenced in comments in this thread). Unfortunately this is likely to damage the essential belief that by paying out (or investing) more into a Miele appliance it will last 20 years. We could see a slow decline in people willing to invest in one if they are being made uneconomical to repair at similar ages to supposedly inferior brands.
People are complaining about these things all over the internet in forums and reviews. It doesn’t matter if it’s relatively rare for a Miele appliance to need £500 of repairs at 6 years old. It should never be allowed to happen. Most people have a defeatist mentality about these sort things and will tell themselves things such as “knowing my luck it’ll happen to me too” or “Sods law dictates if I try to better myself by spending more on one it’ll be me that has an expensive fault..”
I hope it’s better if criticism must come for it to be at least done by a fan, with absolutely no vested interest other than general consumer interest and providing high quality advice to my users. I can’t in all conscience recommend Miele and tell people how great they are without also advising them of the downsides. The only downside to buying a Miele should be the initial expense.
Here’s a good example of how well restricted the Miele market is. Read these following facts carefully, and see if you can see them genuinely objectively and see how it looks from outside of the Miele bubble.
1: I have a Miele washing machine, which is a fantastic washing machine.
2: I host one of the largest spares sites in the UK (www.4washerhelp.co.uk), which is run by Connect Distribution, the single largest UK spares suppliers bar none.
3: I have access to the largest white goods trade site in the UK with access to a combined collation of all the error codes known across all brands shared by hundreds of dedicated and experienced independent engineers
4: I have over 30 years experience in the white goods trade – many of those years as an engineer.
However, if my Miele broke down tomorrow with an error code I would have no clue what it meant. My “error code bible” would be of no help. If I managed to diagnose a specific part, I can’t find one to buy anywhere – even on 4washerhelp which is run by 4ourhouse and has over 1.5 million spare parts. Neither can I find a comprehensive set of genuine parts on other highly prominent spares sites. Hardly anyone sells Miele spare parts (presumably because they cannot get a decent trade discount so it’s not worth their while), there are just a handful of parts available independently, but most are not even genuine Miele parts, they are just “suitable for”, which means it’s a copy. If I wanted to buy a new part I would have to buy at full retail prices from Miele.
Strange beliefs?
How can anyone at Miele seriously believe that a white goods engineer who is a member of one of the two recognised trade associations (DASA or WTA), who may on a daily basis be repairing a myriad of appliances and brands is incapable of mending a Miele washing machine that isn’t pumping out, or is dead, noisy, or not spinning?
I know many independent engineers who are highly experienced, have joined or even formed legitimate white goods trade associations. They constantly fight to improve standards of repairs, have created and/or signed up to carefully thought out codes of practice. They are highly skilled engineers, yet none of them can make money repairing or selling spares for Miele appliances because Miele refuse to give them any trade discount. Miele arbitrarily consider that unless they personally have trained them they cannot possibly be competent to repair Miele appliances which is an insult to all those good engineers.
Miele no longer own appliances they’ve sold
When someone buys a Miele appliance it’s immediately their property. The owner has the right to fair competition on repairs and spares and the government believes that right is essential to consumer interests. I’ve never said an owner should have any right to assistance in fixing faults themselves, most of which (regardless of the brand) should be fixed by a competent engineer. But they should have the right to employ whoever they want to fix it – even if they end up with a cowboy.
Miele should not try to “protect” their customers from so-called cowboys, because however well intentioned that may seem, it’s restricting fair competition and you cannot escape that fact. It’s also highly patronising to customers to dictate you know better than them, and so they should be forced to avoid cowboys for their own good, which appears to be almost big-btotherly done on their behalf. It also coincidentally benefits Miele more than anyone else.
The fact that the motive may be a misguided (and to be frank arguably pompous) belief that Miele products are so superior and complicated than anything else on the market that you have to protect them from all competitors wanting to repair them who must by definition be incompetent or cowboys is no excuse, and frankly I don’t believe that they are so complicated and so far advanced that no engineer, no matter how experienced is capable of repairing it without specific Miele training.
I fully appreciate that the vast majority of people working for Miele are not only extremely loyal but they genuinely believe (with good reason) that most Miele appliances are a high quality product. I also understand how Miele have always traded in a niche market of high quality appliances but the government is looking into restrictive practices in white goods aftersales and I can’t see how a genuine case could be made to them that it is in the customer’s interests to be virtually forced to buy spares and repairs only from Miele or their agents. The argument that customers are all vulnerable and naive so need protecting from cowboys can never wash. That argument could be used by any manufacture of any product and besides, we all know cowboys and incompetents exist, it’s just life.
Customers don’t need protecting
Any Miele customer that does not want to risk getting a cowboy already has that option. All they need do is to only ever call Miele or a Miele agent to repair it. It’s pretty simple. But what about all the others who are willing to take the risk, or already know a very reliable and trustworthy repairman or company? Are Miele really saying they have no right to do that?
Here’s the quote again from my main article -
Andy
While this particular industry remains unregulated there must always be concerns about who is being employed and what their qualifications are.
You cannot get someone to work on your gas products unless they are Gassafe registered; an electrician should be a member of the NICEIC or equivalent. Both of these organisations vet their members on the basis of their qualifications and competency before allowing them to join or be approved.
To my knowledge nobody, not DASA or the WTA vet their applicants for any such evidence of qualification or competency in appliance repairs, they do not inspect their work, there is no universal qualification in appliance technologies and as a result the appliance repair industry has a fairly high number of unskilled repairers who have little qualifications, low earning expectations and invest nothing in their businesses, lacking even the most basic liability insurance.
You yourself even lament the passing of the quality business model in your article here: http://www.whitegoodshelp.co.uk/wordpress/why-are-there-so-many-appliance-repair-horror-stories/
You are undoubtedly experienced in the industry; but you should also be able to see that the free for all of unregulated and unvetted engineers operating in a free market is exactly what did for the business model you lament the passing of; that of specialist repairers, making a realistic profit because they are not subjected to all of the things you complain of that bring about poor repairs.
You cannot as they say have your cake and eat it! Price and quality are always diametrically opposed and the unregulated free market will always result in lower price and quality in every place that it is applied.
I am utterly confounded by your singling out Miele for unfair criticism. The practices that you complain of are equally prevalent in Electrolux, Aeg, Bosch, Siemens, Neff; in fact all of the quality brands exercise some degree of control over the quality of their after sales service through access to information.
If the quality is to be maintained, surely that is to be appreciated?
I really dont understand what you see as the perceived benefits to customers of forcing any company to make all information and lower spares pricing available to anyone who asks for it.
You have already been reassured that Miele will tell anyone what a fault code means and they will sell parts to anyone who wants one. So any customer can already get anyone they want to carry out the repair.
Surely all Miele are doing is applying a quality standard to their repairers? If Miele dont do it who in an unregulated industry decides who the good guys are and who are the bad apples?
Opening up the market will simply result in everything being price driven and we all know what the end results of that is; engineers being asked to work long hours for little return and providing a stress laden, under pressure repair service which yours and my customers rightly object to.
If WTA or DASA delivered on the quality mark as an industry standard i guess you could argue that anyone who was a member was suitable; but they would have to establish a suitable level of qualification and carry out vetting and assessment in the same way that Gassafe or the NICEIC or the ECA do in order for it to have a chance and that would go some way to providing a level playing field regarding the costs involved in membership and of meeting criteria.
Until that happens, anyone has the right to apply any reasonable criteria they like to control the quality of their customers experience of their chosen product, and in pursuit of the promised benefits they market, which in the case of Miele is a 20 year lifecycle including necessary repairs along the way.
Anonymous wrote on August 31, 2011 at 6:24 pm
Sadly, paper qualifications are not necessarily a guarantee of whether the individual can do the job reliably or will do it honestly..
On that argument if I were to double my price for services rendered, then the actual value of my services would double. Yes of course there are costs incurred in doing a good job. However some are greedier than others when it comes to what they charge. Others have wasteful and unnecessary overheads.
I wouldn’t describe the mentioned brands as of particularly high-quality construction, but I refute what you have written with regard to the Bosch/Siemens appliances. My last purchase of a very large larder fridge was a Siemens,largely on the ground that it was from a manufacturer of medium-quality appliances which made spare parts readily available at an economic price. All credit to the Bosch group on that count. I’ve had reason to call on them for replacement internal fittings and got these readily; without them the appliance would have had to be scrapped. My previous two fridges from other manufacturers were junked because of failed — and unreplaceable — door seals.
The obvious benefit that the customer has a machine which he or she knows can probably be repaired at an economic price. What customer is going to want a machine which is likely to be difficult to get repaired or impossible to get repaired at an economic price?
If and only if the repair parts are available. And if the repair parts are unavailable at an economic price, then it’s all a waste of effort. We’re not all going to buy in repaired circuit boards on ebay from a back-street operation in Germany (apparently the most practicable way of getting them economically) when a washing machine needs to be repaired TODAY.
That 20-year life-cycle is a nonsense if the cost of repairs a third of the year into the life-cycle exceeds the cost of a new machine.
Let me give you a real-life example.
Miele washing machine. Pump failure at about seven years. Miele pump a ridiculous price. Third-party pump from UK Whitegoods fitted. Now you might say that the replacement is bound to be poorer quality and not a direct replacement. But wait a minute! Why did that Miele pump fail? No, there was nothing jammed in it. I like to be sure I examine failures carefully. In this instance the shaft had fractured and manifestly obviously because
(i) the shaft was of ridiculously small cross-section
and
(ii) the metal used was of grossly inadequate specification for the application
So much for high-quality parts! The pump had been production engineered for minimum cost — with all due respect, it was a piece of junk.
Same appliance a few weeks later — solenoid on main wash cold water inlet failed. On many machines the simplest of all jobs to replace. But wait a minute — all the solenoids hidden away in an expensive unit that would require the placing of the whole lot with a Miele-exclusive part.
Well, there are usually several ways of skinning a cat and since the machine was my own and since after the pump failure I’d bought a new machine and taken the old one — transit bars etc. in place and transported upright and palleted — to our holiday cottage, I simply rewired the solenoids with a jump-lead between the main solenoid to the pre-wash solenoid and told my wife to put the powder in the right-hand section of the drawer. She’s never used the pre-wash anyway and she can still use it as long as she remembers to put in more powder before the main wash. If I come across a working scrap dispenser I can always reverse the process without difficulty. A poor design, though, in my view and asking for trouble with failure-prone parts.
Worth the money? Well, the £160 (retail) BEKO I gave one of my daughters in law as a wedding present at the time I bought the MIele has not been treated gently but has never hesitated in all that time.
The new replacement machine I got for ourselves last year WAS a Miele — but that was got before the second failure on the previous machine. Miele, as far as I’m concerned as a purchaser, are on probation. If they don’t get my business next time round it will be because of restrictive practices, high parts prices for parts which are of questionable value and poor production engineering.
Hello Anonymous: I apologise for the length of my replies. I find it impossible to keep them shorter but I usually delete half of what I write before posting so it could be worse :-)
I’ll try to answer your specific points by quoting and replying underneath.
Manufacturers should surely only be concerned about the quality of engineer they themselves employ. Once their product is out of their guarantee anyone should be allowed to pursue legitimate business interests maintaining and repairing or refurbishing it and no company shall attempt to prevent legitimate trade. The car repair business was highly restricted for years until independent dealers took class legal action and won. Now the government is looking into claims that the white goods industry is also having too much restriction on free trade and competition after admittedly many years of doing nothing.
Independents in the trade (especially the trade associations) also call for some sort of recognised qualification. Believe it or not there are many independent engineers that are just as concerned if not more so as yourselves because cowboys and incompetents give them a very bad name and damage their business.
It’s the government’s job to regulate or not. In the absence of any qualifications or regulations the government is content to let the free market rule for better or for worse. DASA do say they have “a vetting procedure through which all applicants must pass. DASA only wants quality firms that can demonstrate compliance with its Code of Practice and Quality Criteria” (as do the WTA). Why would Miele want to snub white goods trade associations striving to improve standards?
You have misunderstood my article. It’s too much free competition in finished goods that has resulted in obsolescence of repair specialists. Too much competition to sell finished goods has driven prices down to such levels that many appliances are seen as beyond economical repair. A further devastating effect has been the increasing un-repairability of so many white goods appliances by design in a blind attempt to keep prices down. It’s nothing to do with engineers or repairs.
I regret the fact it might appear that way, but criticism isn’t defined as fair or unfair by how many others are doing the same. It can be unfair to single only one out, but the criticism itself is still valid. Here are just 2 examples where I’ve also advised consumers on lack of technical information availability, or suspected restrictive practices -
LG smart diagnosis – advancement or con? | Appliance Error codes – friend or foe?
The other brands you mention are also mentioned in an article above but to my knowledge people in the trade can still buy spares easily and at trade discount, and there’s a lot of error code information available for most of them but yes, it’s an increasing trend that is bad for consumers, and I believe one that cannot be maintained for much longer.
I may have greater concerns regarding Miele because I’ve personally recommended them so much, and have persuaded countless numbers of people to buy one with the promise that they are built to last 20 years. One might even argue that almost the entire contents of Washerhelp’s 11 year existence so far ultimately make the case for buying a Miele washing machine.
Discovering recently that some Miele customers are being quoted so much for a repair that they consider it is beyond economical repair (at ages such as 6 – 8 years) was a staggering shock to me. As far as I’m aware this is a relatively new phenomenon and a sign something’s not right. I’m still presuming it is relatively rare, but it doesn’t seem to be exceptionally rare. This has made me reconsider the concept of investing in such high quality appliances if you can end up faced with such potentially staggeringly high repairs, and if there’s even a chance they may not last anywhere near 20 years after all.
Regarding competition
Everyone knows that lack of competition means higher prices, this is an inescapable truth. It may initially help stop quality tumbling into the gutter but ultimately it ends up with someone having a monopoly and that means higher prices and ultimately longer waits for service etc. In particular the government set up the monopolies and mergers commission (now the Competition Commission) specifically because they see lack of competition as bad for the economy. Part of the reason for their existence is stated in their opening statement on their web site, “..ensuring healthy competition between companies in the UK for the benefit of companies, customers and the economy. ”
I agree with you that too much competition results in lower quality, and until you said so I thought I’d thought of that myself – unless you are quoting my own words from my article in 2007 where I said exactly that ;-)
Washing machines on sale in supermarkets and other daft places where I said
Quote:
So I do agree too much competition can have undesired effects. We need the right balance but individual companies can’t use that as a reason for reducing their own competition.
Here’s the rub
I do indeed lament the severe drop in quality of appliances, their terrible longevity record, the unsustainable constant price drops of appliances in real terms, and as you pointed out the drop in repair standards and virtual extinction of specialists.
But all of these real problems could be irradiated if Miele was the only manufacturer no?
I really don’t mean that to be facetious, it’s perfectly true. If you could somehow eradicate all other competition then Miele could be the vanguard of quality ensuring all appliances are forever better, and repaired by only the best. I’m aware this could be misinterpreted as having a swipe but it’s a school of thought some could even subscribe to at Miele in an idealistic way. It’s just easier to see how wrong it is when put in that stark manner.
I’m pretty sure no one else in the UK would think we would all be better off if Miele (or any single manufacturer) were the only manufacturer yet most people at Miele would if truth be known be likely to believe it would be better following the logic of the arguments so far. However laudable and sincere the intentions to make better appliances are, and no matter how much I understand them, they are motivated ultimately by self interest. People must be allowed to choose whether to pay more for better, whether to risk their money in the hope of saving a substantial amount or not.
All the arguments put forward so far are for enforced quality, enforced for the greater good. I may agree entirely with your motives, your genuine and laudable aspirations and indeed share them, but each business needs to persuade people that customers should use them in an open market.
Hello John and thanks for your comments. You made some good points, but regretfully the one saying Miele are rapidly gaining a reputation as being one of the worst horror stories with regard to whitegoods repairs appeared a bit sweeping and maybe exaggerated? I spent 15 minutes searching google trying to see if it’s justified but can only find the odd angry complaint. If you want to amend it or send something to back it up I can put it back but I want to make all efforts I can to only have fair and justified criticism published. Hope you understand and thanks again for your contribution :-)
John
Ever tried to get technical assistance from Siemens?
The price of parts is all relative; Miele parts are more money but then relative to the cost of a machine they are not unreasonable; no more so than when you compare the price of an indesit part to its purchase price.
But thankfully many people still make their decisions based on more than price. I for one did so on the basis that my expensive machine, with ten year guarantee and then with repairs, will last me far more years than a cheaper one, and do its job better and with less complaint over that period.
On balance that still holds true for the vast majority of people and the odd horror story does not make any kind of compelling argument that i or other readers should take note of.
Andy himself has just confirmed that according to his own research their is very little complaining going on about Miele on the net, other than on his own blog!
I am content that I have achieved more in environmental impact and get a better return for my time and money with Miele than with any other product.
Stop beating up the good guys is what i would say!
I’ve just said I found no evidence to back up the pretty extreme statement specific to aftersales service but people are complaining about price of spares and machines not lasting. I don’t subscribe to the idea that just because someone’s trying to make better quality products they are “the good guys” and should be able to do whatever they want without criticism. That argument is that the end always justifies the means and a lot of pretty bad things have been done under that banner.
Anonymous wrote on Sept 2, 2011
“John
Ever tried to get technical assistance from Siemens?”
No, never needed it. Siemens appliances are produced by Bosch and Siemens Hausgeräte, so they’re effectively, if not legally, Bosch Group. If their production engineering weren’t so cheese-paring I wouldn’t have needed most of these parts at all, but all credit to them, their parts stock-holding has proved excellent and not unreasonably-priced, and the electrical and mechanical problems I’ve come across have never demanded more than a little thinking on my part.
“The price of parts is all relative; Miele parts are more money but then relative to the cost of a machine they are not unreasonable”
I’m afraid I really can’t say that such has been my experience. A pump at, IIRC, more than 20% of the cost of the machine is not, to me, reasonable unless the pump is good quality. Certainly the pump I replaced on my own Miele was anything but good quality — it was manifestly unfit for purpose. A shaft that thin was asking for trouble even if had been made of very high-quality engineering steel, which it most certainly was not. I’ve no quarrel with the pattern pump supplied by UK Whitegoods at, IIRC, just over £50.
” no more so than when you compare the price of an indesit part to its purchase price”
I have vivid memories of replacing a mains switch on a particular Indesit dishwasher a few times until eventually I simply wired it out; and equally, on the same machine, replacing the plastic panel which carried the controls several times as the replacements fractured, one after another, in exactly the same place as the original. I gave up eventually and stuck a reinforcing piece to the back of the panel with epoxy. The machine soldiered on reasonably after that. The problem wasn’t the availability or cost of the replacement parts, it was the poor quality of the parts.
“But thankfully many people still make their decisions based on more than price. I for one did so on the basis that my expensive machine, with ten year guarantee and then with repairs, will last me far more years than a cheaper one, and do its job better and with less complaint over that period.”
As, in fact, do I. My “using” LandRover is 23 years old, rebuilt on a new galvanised chassis with virtually all the steel parts galvanised at a local galvanising plant. And I have a much older Series IIA in the last stages of a rebuild. My “respectable” car is nine years old. But I’m not blind to the faults of these vehicles. And certainly in the case of the LandRover, the principal virtues are
1. that parts are readily available, even for 60-year old models
2. they’re like a giant Meccano kit, the ultimate in user-fixable vehicles.
Conversely my Honda was off the road for some time at its last MOT because one of its Lambda sensors is a dedicated Honda-only model and there was a massive rush on such parts as a particular batch of cars needed them replaced at the same time and none were available. No Brownie-points for Honda on that one. The other Lambda sensor, a standard Bosch product, was, of course, readily available, cheap and didn’t need replacing!
“On balance that still holds true for the vast majority of people and the odd horror story does not make any kind of compelling argument that i or other readers should take note of.”
The vast majority of people do NOT buy Miele machines. I agree with you that odd horror stories can exist with any machine, but for me the question is how do the manufacturers respond in such circumstances? Let me illustrate from a slightly different area of machines:
Many years ago I had a couple of vehicular disasters at the same time. LandRover oil pump seized, stripped timing belt, valves met pistons and one mess of buckled valve stems at less than 20,000 miles. Top-end rebuild of engine required at vast expense. LandRover wouldn’t cough up for even a replacement oil pump. While that débacle was going on, the automatic transmission of my then Honda (several years old and 30,000 miles on the clock, started giving rough changes. Honda paid for the transmission to be removed, rebuilt and refitted — no charge. Result: I’ve bought three top of range Hondas since, but it’s better for me if I rebuild an existing LandRover than buy a new one, since that way I know the quality of the parts that are put in, even if the end result costs me more than buying a new one.,
“I am content that I have achieved more in environmental impact and get a better return for my time and money with Miele than with any other product.”
I agree with not being needlessly wasteful. My own domestic cooker is an English Electric of c1960 vintage — but it would have been thrown out decades ago if it had not been easily maintained with standard parts.
“Stop beating up the good guys is what i would say!”
I’ve no desire to beat up Miele. I wouldn’t be using two of their products myself if I didn’t like them. However, if I were a member of the public relying on Miele to carry out those two repairs a third of the way through the alleged design life of my own Miele washing machine, I would have been better junking it.
Just had a Miele engineer in to look at our nearly 9 yr old W304 Miele washing machine. The machine had become noisy with more vibration than normal and was diagnosed as having a distorted drum (+ a bracelet found between the inner and outer drum won’t have helped). Total projected repair cost was £500 so it was a no-brainer decision to scrap the machine. We bought the machine new for £450 and it’s had pretty heavy family use (we’ve 4 kids) so £50 a year useage-cost doesn’t seem too bad.
Up to this point the machine had been faultless, never once requiring repair and washed brilliantly so overall I have been delighted but its life span came nowhere near Miele’s claimed 20yrs.
Are we happy with Miele and their claims of reliability and durability? Yes of course we are.
A Miele washine machine that has had moderate use would have lasted a lot longer no doubt, so people need to be realistic about their longevity expectations and base them on useage and wash quality. Ours has washed wetsuits, sleeping bags, Nike trainers as well as all the usual items from a large family (in quantity) – always with excellent results. Any machine that lasts 5 years and washed that lot will have done very well indeed.
It would have been nice to be able to report that our old Miele machine could have been resurrected for £200 but that was never going to happen given the high quality of the components (and their associated high cost) that were needed. We were happy to lash out £750 on a new Miele from a very helpful local independent Miele dealer in the full knowledge that you get what you pay for. The whole life costs of these machine are low compared to almost all other brands, something people ought to be factoring in to their buying decisions.
Pretty-in-pink, I’m pleased that you are happy with the Miele brand. However, your experience is, as others have found, that Miele’s 20-year promise is compromised by the cost of repairs. The damage to your machine may have been ‘exceptional circumstance’ but it still demonstrates the problem being discussed within this forum.
Perhaps our own family has just been lucky with our 16-year-old and quite heavily-used Zanussi (which I selected after a fair amount of research into the pros and cons of the different makes/models), but I’ll remind readers again that this gave not a moment’s trouble in all those years until the motor brushes recently came to the end of their wear allowance. A simple D-I-Y replacement of the brushes (£10.50 per set) brought the machine back to life and it is now operating ‘as new’ again.
Not that I’m suggesting that a D-I-Y repair should be the norm for increasingly complicated washing machines, but brush replacement on the Zanussi involved only putting the machine on its side, removing the worn brushes by undoing a total of four screws and two blade connectors, and replacing ‘in reverse order’. Even if carried out by a white goods ‘professional’, I wouldn’t have expected the repair to have cost anywhere near as much as it would on a Miele.
Pretty-in-Pink wrote –
“It would have been nice to be able to report that our old Miele machine could have been resurrected for £200 but that was never going to happen given the high quality of the components (and their associated high cost) that were needed”
I would raise two questions on the basis of what “Pretty-in-Pink writes:
1. Is the quality of Miele parts always high?
2. How much of the cost of these parts to the end user relates to Miele’s buying-in price?
As I have already indicated, I was shocked at the poor quality of a failed Miele washing machine pump. Electrically fine, but mechanically very poor quality design and manufacture.
I also question the practice of making failure-prone parts such as inlet solenoids an integral part of a much larger sub-assembly, thereby precluding the use of readily-available standard parts as replacements.
Miele’s site says, “Miele products are made in Germany and tested to last for 20 years”. This is implying they are designed to not break down for 20 years.
Re my comment above, the 20 year claim would have the caveat of the product needing to have been used under normal conditions and not exceeding a certain number of cycles, which Miele software counts and can be read by an engineer. Therefore they would only claim they are designed to last 20 years under certain conditions.
However, these limits are usually generous enough to cover the vast majority of people (and mostly presumably mainly designed to weed out commercial use) as described in an article I wrote a few years back – Miele extended warranties have a clause limiting amount of washing you can do
The 20 years life (at least regarding washing machines and tumble dryers) equates to a lot of hours, which is highlighted in another article I wrote some years back – 30 tons of laundry washed & dried live on the Internet and reminds us of the quality of Miele washing machines and tumble dryers.
It has to be said though that this was around 7 years ago now, so I couldn’t say if quality has been compromised since then or not. It can’t be easy for Miele to keep their appliances from becoming prohibitively expensive.
Having said all that I still take the Miele statement to be “promising” that most people should expect 20 years trouble free life. If this is actually true, then the price of spares isn’t so much of an issue, but if the reality is that a lot of Miele appliances do still break down – even if only after 10 years or so – then they can only manage the rest of the 20 years if repairs costs are not totally uneconomical, and with some motors costing £600 fitted I can only hope it is exceptionally rare that someone faces that kind of bill.
(Note: I’ve only seen one Miele motor at £500, others are around £390, £450)
So many responses to this issue! My own defective machine (see my other posting) required a new drum and the engineer said that on Mieles both the inner and outer drums are made of stainless steel unlike most other machines on the market. So I guess that yes, the quality of the parts would be high. (Although not sure whether I needed a new inner or outer drum the repair price quoted included parts and labour.)
Not wishing to labour the point but for most non-technical, non-DIY type people who couldn’t attempt even a simple repair, isn’t the main issue the whole life costs of the machine?
When we scapped our Miele the other day we could have bought a Beko for £189 to replace it. Would it wash/spin as well and would it last even for 4 yrs given the type of stuff we tend to put in our machine, often washing 4 times a day? Probably not. Our old Miele cost us £50 a year (£450 purchase price, used for 9 years). The Beko may have been troublesome, to boot, during its short projected life, would it be even worth getting an engineer out to attempt a repair given it’s low purchase price and the cost of ANY repair, no matter how simple? Would it last 4 years (£50 per year) given our useage? Would it wash well when it was working?
I once saw this sign-written on the side of a greengrocer’s van, “Quality is the only true measure of value”. It would appear that a lot of people nowadays are prepared to buy cheap but end up buying twice. Seems that kitchens are also now largely disposable items that get pulled out and replaced every 5 years or so with the result that the actual units, doors, drawers etc of the mass market brands are rubbish because they are cheap and don’t need to last. Buy a proper kitchen from Poggenpohl or Alno etc – you’ll pay handsomely – but you get a thing of beauty and quality that is a joy forever.
The £750 we spent on our new Miele I feel is money well spent, even if I only get 10 years out of it, because I can be confident that it won’t need much attention even though it’s being thrashed and will always wash brilliantly. 20 years would be great but I’m realistic about our useage. We did consider an ISE machine but we live in a remote part of the Scottish Highlands and weren’t confident of sales/service backup given the minor league presence of the brand in the UK at the moment. It was also £1000 or thereabouts which is just too much.
Pretty-in-pink wrote on September 6, 2011 :
“the engineer said that on Mieles both the inner and outer drums are made of stainless steel unlike most other machines on the market. So I guess that yes, the quality of the parts would be high”
Yes, of course the cost of fabricating a drum of stainless steel is higher than a few plastic mouldings. However the actual cost of manufacture may be only a small part of the cost charged — and the warehousing space and inventory costs of a stainless steel drum is no more than that for a plastic one.
“Not wishing to labour the point but for most non-technical, non-DIY type people who couldn’t attempt even a simple repair, isn’t the main issue the whole life costs of the machine?”
In the end of the day, that’s a vitally-important element for almost all of us.
“When we scrapped our Miele the other day we could have bought a Beko for £189 to replace it. Would it wash/spin as well and would it last even for 4 yrs given the type of stuff we tend to put in our machine, often washing 4 times a day? Probably not”.
Or you might have been surprised. As I’ve already pointed out, the £160 (delivered to a remote rural location in the Scottish Highlands, a mile up an exceedingly rough unsurfaced track) Beko I gave to a son and daughter-in-law eight years ago as a wedding present hasn’t missed a beat and they’ve got three small children, so it’s running constantly. Possibly the exception that proves the rule, but let’s be fair to Beko. I have a strict policy with washing machines of not using the top spin speed as the biggest difference between models with higher spin speeds and their down-range stable-mates is that the bearings are significantly upgraded for the faster models.
“Our old Miele cost us £50 a year (£450 purchase price, used for 9 years). The Beko may have been troublesome, to boot, during its short projected life, would it be even worth getting an engineer out to attempt a repair given it’s low purchase price and the cost of ANY repair, no matter how simple? Would it last 4 years (£50 per year) given our useage?”
I’m sure you don’t grudge the cost of your Miele. Fair enough. I’m still far from convinced that the price of Miele spare parts is justified, though.
“Would it wash well when it was working?”
That is a very important point — and, if it comes to the bit, a major element in my decision to buy a Miele. The versatility of programming is excellent, and while one can achieve similar ends by more roundabout methods on other machines, the ability to design in variations in the standard programs and have those variations remembered by the machine is of considerable value to many of us. Full marks to Miele on that one.
“Seems that kitchens are also now largely disposable items that get pulled out and replaced every 5 years or so with the result that the actual units, doors, drawers etc of the mass market brands are rubbish because they are cheap and don’t need to last.”
Sadly, true in many instances. Although, bizarrely, the relationship between price and quality is not as simple as might appear.
“Buy a proper kitchen from Poggenpohl or Alno etc – you’ll pay handsomely – but you get a thing of beauty and quality that is a joy forever.”
I’m never likely to own a Poggenphol kitchen. However the skill of the fitter is more important than anything else and with a good fitter, a careful choice of range with particular reference to the drawer construction, hinge quality and countertop density of the substratum,if it’s laminate worktops, together with the purchase of a supply of replacement hinges and the purchase of an extra drawer unit, there’s no reason whatsoever why a range from amongst the most economical shouldn’t last at least forty years, even in very heavy use.
“We did consider an ISE machine but we live in a remote part of the Scottish Highlands and weren’t confident of sales/service backup given the minor league presence of the brand in the UK at the moment. It was also £1000 or thereabouts which is just too much.”
I simply can’t think of a corner of the Scottish Highlands which is beyond the reach of service engineers. Incidentally, pursing the question with Miele, it was interesting to find that in their case (to be totally fair to them) the Highlands are covered by a firm in Aviemore who are their service people for commercial products. In fact, to put it simply, if you’re within reach of a shop with a freezer or refrigerated counter, you’re probably within the standard servicing range of a company which may well cover much more than their advertised line of work and is used to doing so on an emergency basis.
I do find it amazing that ISE have no dealer in Inverness, the fastest-growing city in Europe; however their representation in the Highlands and Islands has greatly improved over the past year or so and they now have dealers in North Uist, in Thurso, in Dornoch and in Aviemore and the last-mentioned has full coverage of the Highlands and Islands for service and is actually also the provider of official Miele service for the Highlands and Islands. If you have a five or ten year parts and labour guarantee you can look for a speedy and realistic service in whatever part of the Highlands you may be, even if you have no local service provider.
I live in the Highlands myself and my holiday cottage is in a very remote location. Last time round, Miele won the toss. However I’m not so sure that today ISE with a ten year parts and labour guarantee AND proper parts availability might not be a better choice, especially bearing in mind that if I’m away from home for some time, my wife might have to get washing machine service from some other source.
What was the outcome of the complaint made by kwatt and his Whitegoods Association to the OFT into the alleged restrictive practices he and you alluded to?
I heard it was examined based on the evidence he and his members submitted and it was found that there was no case to answer?
Can you reassure your readers with the outcome of the OFT’s findings with a link
Hello Anonymous: The restrictive practices I mention are not alluded to, they are clearly admitted by several people at or involved with Miele on these comments. Their main arguments have been structured around justifying the practices – not denying they exist.
I haven’t followed anything regarding the OFT. A few months back I did mentioned that they had started looking into it because it added some weight to my points, but that was years after my main article and most of my comments and they are in no way necessary to validate my points.
I’ve just had a look at the report. It seems they have a very strange and naive way of looking at things. For example they seem to think that because most people don’t bother trying to get a white goods appliance repaired any more there is no issue, when the reality is that so many have long since stopped trying to get them repaired because of the very problems they were supposed to be investigating (ie. prohibitively high spares prices).
They also seemed laughably appeased by “evidence” from eSpares “that has indicated that the five most common spare parts for a dishwasher could be purchased for a total cost of £12.96″. No doubt the lemon fresheners they hang inside dishwashers made up most of these so-called common dishwasher parts. Anyone in the trade would know that statement is ludicrous as an argument that spare prices aren’t too expensive. It seems most so-called government investigations can be so easily misled and manipulated it’s depressing.
Reading between the lines of the report Miele just have too small a market share to be a concern, so that’s great for Miele. However, they haven’t said there are no problems – only that when they look at the entire market it’s generally not too restricted – or it’s more un-restricted than restricted (thanks to other much bigger companies that do not restrict anything or only a little like AEG Zanussi).
My argument has always been that I believe the extreme costs of spares and repairs for Miele appliances combined with the lack of any competition is becoming a threat to Miele
Regardless of whether anything will officially be done about it all of my points in this article are valid, and important consumer advice. As long as people know the full picture they can make informed choices.
I’ve only had chance to skim the report but one paragraph stands out in rebutting the Miele argument that independent repairers are no good -
Aftermarkets for Domestic Electrical Goods (pdf file)
Andy
You seem hung up on this.
It is disingenuous to compare a miele fill hose (whose description itself neeeds qualifying) with the cost of a cheap dishwasher.
The Miele fill hose for a dishwasher has the entire water proof system built in including valves, and how many fail in all honesty? You seem intent on citing the very worst examples to support your claims and to my mind you are over egging the problem.
If you buy your parts from espares or any of the other middlemen you are automatically suggesting that folk should buy their spares from the highest priced source available ratherthan pick up the phone to Miele and get the part at a cheaper price.
This whole thread has lost all credibility in my view, not because there is actually any problem with Miele or their network of INDEPENDANT dealers or their practices but simply because you have an axe to gring about the industry wide practices and are singling out Miele for special attention.
Most of the defense of Miele is based on the premis that in order to obtain service excellence you have to apply some kind of management to who does what in your name. As Miele make the highest quality appliances with the greatest life expectancy they do so in support of that quality pledge.
Somewhere near you will be an indpendent repairer who repairs your Miele products as reasonably as can be done. Anyone of them will affirm the quality of the products and the brand and its life expectancies; all of them will confirm that on occasions it is necessary to have a repair during the lifecycle of a machine.
My washing machine has so far given 12 years of trouble free service in family use; in the same period ny neighbour has got through 3 machines and ‘borrowed’ the use of our Miele along the way!
Anonymous wrote
“If you buy your parts from espares or any of the other middlemen you are automatically suggesting that folk should buy their spares from the highest priced source available ratherthan pick up the phone to Miele and get the part at a cheaper price.”
What an extraordinary comment! It’s primarily because of reservations about the very high prices for spare parts from Miele that owners go to other sources.
Anonymous wrote
“This whole thread has lost all credibility in my view, not because there is actually any problem with Miele or their network of >> INDEPENDANT <> gring <> defense <> premis << that in order to obtain service excellence you have to apply some kind of management to who does what in your name. As Miele make the highest quality appliances with the greatest life expectancy they do so in support of that quality pledge."
Anonymous, you're entitled to your views, but your spelling and use of English is somewhat extraordinary. Everyone here has something positive to say about Miele machines, but not everyone believes that either the machines or the company which produces them is flawless.
Anonymous wrote
"Somewhere near you will be an indpendent repairer who repairs your Miele products as reasonably as can be done. Anyone of them will affirm the quality of the products and the brand and its life expectancies; all of them will confirm that on occasions it is necessary to have a repair during the lifecycle of a machine."
"Somewhere near you" is simply not true. If I'm not mistaken, some people will be well over 100 miles by road from the nearest service agent.
To me, this thread can be summed up by saying that there's a real concern that Miele machines may be heading for a situation in which they can be described as "Nice machines, pleasant to use, but expensive to buy and so expensive to repair that for many people they've simply got to be treated as throwaway items which may perhaps last a. bit longer than most throwaway items" My advice to end users with regard to Miele would to write the appliance off over the period of the parts and labour warranty; after that it's probably not worth paying for factory service and availability of both parts and service information is restricted.
If parts and service information were readily available at a fair price, then Miele would be top of the recommendations for domestic use. It's the lack of parts at a fair price and the lack of accessible service information which brings about reservations which would not otherwise be there.
You can also buy this one for less than five quid and you can also get any old engineer to fit it if your not able to do it yourself.
here you go: http://www.buyspares.co.uk/cold-fill-hose-15m/product.pl?pid=71672&query=Miele+water+inlet+hose
For the benefit of your readers Andy; lest they be misled.
And John; yes some people live a long way from civilization; they cant get pizzas delivered either.
Despite this they can still get parts at a fair price; they just have to go the right vendor and its not espares, buyspares or any of the online suppliers to the public. None of these vendors offer a discount on any of their products to the public or the trade.
By the magic of Google it took me 2 minutes to come up with a list of over 50 Independent repair companies who can supply you parts and carry out service at a reasonable price.
Here you go : http://www.miele.co.uk/customer/DealerDirectory.pdf
They will probably provide spares a darn sight cheaper than buyspares too!
Like I said; you seem hung up on something and appear desperate to construct an artificial case by only sighting the most extreme and ridiculous examples you can find based on the internet.
Why dont you do some proper journalistic research and ring around the real world and get some hard evidence for what you are alleging? Hearsay evidence is hardly convincing and the number of complaints about Miele out there are bearly audible above the chatter of satisfied customers giving glowing reviews and experiences.
Hello Anonymous: You can’t keep challenging my article and then call my replies being hung up on it. I simply wrote an article which has valid critical points about Miele appliances, it’s just one out of many articles otherwise praising and recommending Miele.
The only reason it may appear to you as if I have an axe to grind is because of repeated comments by yourself and a few others causing me to repeat the same points over and over again and provide more evidence.
Regarding the hose
The hose I linked to is just a hose, and is clearly shown on the photo and description – albeit a very nice metallic looking one. It doesn’t come with any solenoid. I can see other Miele fill hoses at £95.99, £133.99 and a “cheap one” at £70.99. The cheap one is definitely a “normal” hose, which is the equivalent of the one you linked to at just £2.50. There’s no doubt the Miele fill hose is a lot better quality but at £70.99 you could buy 28 normal fill hoses at £2.50. The sad fact is that a Miele fill hose is at best 2 or 3 times better quality, but 28 times the cost. The Aqua stop one you claim my link to be is actually £180.99 and there is another Miele fill hose which comes with Aquastop at £226.99.
If you prefer me to use better examples there are dishwasher circulation pumps at £332.99 and £414.99. There are Miele washing machine motors at £490.99 and that’s one of the cheaper ones – not to mention the price of main control boards, drums etc. These parts clearly can still go wrong, and if so many people will decide to scrap the appliance because it’s not much more expensive to buy even another Miele dishwasher or washing machine.
As far as I can see the reason Miele spares would be even more expensive elsewhere is if Miele do not give a proper trade discount to spares sellers. I suspect Miele don’t sell them cheaper as you imply, they just make them more expensive anywhere else?
A large spares company such as Buyspares should be able to command a very high trade discount and either sell them at the same price as Miele (or their dealers) or even – god forbid – cheaper. In the absence of a proper discount they may well have to add their markup on instead. If this is the case then your argument about Miele spares being more expensive (at the competition) neatly proves my point that Miele’s control over spares results in higher prices.
If other companies, which are highly prominent to consumers are selling Miele spares even more pricey than Miele do then that is BAD for Miele. They should be keen for other companies to sell their spares cheaper, which in turn will reduce repair costs and try to halt this disastrous slippery slope of Miele appliances being uneconomical repair. I recently had another email correspondence with a Miele customer who had her 8 year old Miele washing machine scrapped at 8 years by a Miele engineer, and another who’s tumble dryer was scrapped at less than 10 years old by Miele engineer. Anyway, there I go again repeating the points. I will try to stop doing so in the future.
Miele appliances are great
Ultimately we agree on how superior Miele washing machines are to most of the competition. I totally understand that controlling everything for their own benefit is what Miele want to do, and their reasons why, and that they have done so successfully since the beginning. As such I also understand why any challenge to that status quo is likely to be appear from the Miele bubble. I can imagine genuine (if misguided) outrage at anyone having the audacity to criticise Miele.
People will make up their own mind. The irony is that I always thought it was no big problem that only Miele repaired them in the past. I accepted that Miele would be likely to give a high standard of service suited to the high quality of the product and naturally it would cost more. It’s only since this appears to have ended up with Miele appliances being scrapped because of uneconomically high repair quotes and I’ve realised how ludicrously expensive many Miele parts are that I’ve seen it as a problem for customers and Miele alike.
I’ve thought about the paragraph in my last but one comment regarding the Mile fill hose at £185. I didn’t want to infer (as believed by Anonymous) that all Miele fill hoses are this price, and have quoted cheaper examples in my comment above. I’ve deleted the paragraph in question as it wasn’t worth adding even more words trying to explain it all onto an already long comment.
I’ve also deleted some of the paragraphs in my last comment above since posting to try and reduce its bulk and remove some comments that merely repeated points I’ve made too many times before.
Anonymous wrote
“You can also buy this one for less than five quid and you can also get any old engineer to fit it if your not able to do it yourself.”
I should imagine that anyone reading this is capable of fitting washing machine supply hoses with their eyes shut and probably has a few good ones hanging up as spares. I’ve never seen a Miele hose, external or internal, that’s posed any problems to remove, even without specialist tools for the internal ones.
Anonymous wrote
“For the benefit of your readers Andy; lest they be misled.”
Surely no-one reading this is likely to misidentify a standard hose. Using one on an American machine may require a little ingenuity to get it to seal, but that’s not a problem faced with a Miele machine.
Anonymous wrote
“And John; yes some people live a long way from civilization; they cant get pizzas delivered either.”
1. I don’t need pizza delivered
2. I can find a pizzeria a whole lot closer than I can find a Miele service agent!
Anonymous wrote
“Despite this they can still get parts at a fair price; they just have to go the right vendor and its not espares, buyspares or any of the online suppliers to the public. None of these vendors offer a discount on any of their products to the public or the trade.”
Sadly, not true. Last part I actually bought for a Miele washing machine was a pump from UK Whitegoods because
1) they’re a reliable supplier
2) the Miele genuine part which had failed was in my judgment poor quality and should never have failed if the design and materials had been adequate
3) I wasn’t going to drive 100 miles to collect the part from the nearest service dealer and the carriage on the genuine part would have inflated the price still further.
Anonymous wrote
“By the magic of Google it took me 2 minutes to come up with a list of over 50 Independent repair companies who can supply you parts and carry out service at a reasonable price..
We’re not stupid — and of course I’ve seen that list before. A rather stupid list, in my opinion, because so many of those listed don’t spell out in the list the areas they cover.
Anonymous wrote
“They will probably provide spares a darn sight cheaper than buyspares too!”
Come on, most of us will check through supply sources on the internet and aren’t going to pay more than necessary, like for like.
Anonymous wrote
“Hearsay evidence is hardly convincing”
Neither is anonymity!
Anonymous, there’s no need to imagine that people are “down on Miele” — everyone here rather likes Miele machines and acknowledges that in many respects they’re better than average. What’s not better than average is the price charged for spare parts and the availability of those spare parts and essential service information.
No-one needs to buy a Miele. There might well be a case, if someone’s going to spend around £1000 on a washing machine, for casting their eyes over some of the commercial machines which are usually much more robust and for which there are generally good service arrangements and availability of spare parts..Commercial purchasers are much less tolerant of machine failures and even less tolerant of service failures. ISE machines come close to the mark of being a good practical compromise and are slowly building their dealer network which is a point in their favour, as is the ready availability of parts.
It seems to me that Miele are cutting off their nose to spite their face.
Interesting thread, that has been running for some years.
I am a Meile victim.
Vacuum cleaner stopped working. Just out of warranty.
Why will Miele not release technical information to allow me to service the machine. They are no more responsible for my Health and Safety than Mercedes is when I work on my car.
Why should a consumer be forced to use an authorised repairer or an independent?
Why does everyone refer to these guys as ‘engineers’ I would be surprised if any of them are. Some are trained technicians, some are rather less qualified. In any case most of them are not that capable and rely on manufacturer support, black box swapping and having the freedom to land the end user with a large bill.
Oh yes – I am an Engineer! :-)
I’ve reached the conclusion that Miele machines are best treated as better-than-average-quality disposables. The chances of being able to effect a repair oneself are fairly good, at least where pattern parts are available, but if not, it’s going to be cheaper to ditch the failed machine.
What rather surprises me is that there seems to be no secondary source of servicing information and it seems strange to me that the only obvious source of refurbished PCBs is a service engineer in former East Germany.
Norman: I agree that the word “engineer” has always been very generous and even erroneous when used to describe people who repair appliances. A true engineer is very different to someone (myself included) who just repairs appliances (Engineer: Wikipedia). Even most of the true diagnostic skills that used to be required have long since declined in necessity due to error codes, symptom-cause charts and complete parts swapping of modern times.
To be a good appliance repairer is no mean feat though, and the job can be very tough and demanding even if the job title overstates the skills somewhat :-)
John: Their washing machines are real class compared with “normal” washing machines, and a pleasure to own and use, so I would rate them much higher than just “better than average”. I would also hope and presume that it’s a relative minority of Miele appliances that end up being beyond economical repair though as I’ve said many times, no Miele appliance should ever be allowed to be too expensive to repair under 20 years old.
Funny about the complaints about service information.
My engineers, qualified and with years of experience, are in our service office every morning from 8-9am servicing customers information requests and advising them about what they can do, what they can try and what things mean.
The only thing they cant do (yet!) is diagnose a fault and fix it by telepathy.
The ‘codes’ complained of give a pretty succinct way of addressing a fault because instead of relying on a customers pretty wayward description of what they perceive to be happening they can tell us its showing code so and so, which is a language technicians understand and on which they can readily advise; and its not always the end of the world!
Some folk need to realise the world dont revolve around them or their misconceptions about the world, nor are they full of the conspiracies imagined. Most things are done for perfectly logical and well-intentioned reasons that benefit more people most of the time.
Appliance Error codes friend or foe?
Anonymous wrote on November 14, 2011 at 10:32 pm
One can assume only that “Anonymous” is some part of the Miele organisation.
1. Where is this fact made clear on the Miele website?
2. What about the vast majority of people who require the information other than between 8am and 9am?
3. If the information can be given between 8am and 9am why can it not be published on the Miele website — details of codes and possible action(s) required, full circuit diagrams including those for PCBs and specifying normal voltage and current readings at relevant points in the circuits?
Anonymous wrote
One might reply that some people can read, write and spell. Indeed some of these same people have a lifetime of experience of both customer relations and many decades of experience of repairing appliances and equipment which has failed, often prematurely. Insulting your customers — especially those who actually like Miele equipment — is hardly the way to maintain customer loyalty or build up the brand image.
Anonymous wrote
Rather a sweeping statement. It’s more than probable that most actions of any commercial company are done with the ultimate aim of making more money. Anonymous should perhaps also consider the possibility that even well-intentioned ideas may perhaps have unintended and unforeseen consequences and that there may be merit in reviewing and even revising policies in the light of experience.
Is it really necessary to state once again that this long-running thread has been contributed to by people who, it seems to me, all like Miele equipment but many of whom have expressed unhappiness about the price and availability of Miele spare parts, together with reservations about the lack of ready availability of service information.
I’ve already indicated that I’ve got two Miele washing machines.– one in my home and the other in my holiday cottage. My dishwasher — not a Miele — is at the end of its design life. If it should fail beyond simple economic repair, will it be replaced by a Miele? I don’t know, but certainly the cost of spare parts will be a large part of the equation. When I last replaced my own large larder fridge, one of the basic reasons for choosing a Siemens was that the Bosch Group have a very ready availability of spare parts and the door seal (unlike that on many other makes) was designed as a replaceable part.
I run a caravan site and the cost and restricted availability of parts for Miele domestic equipment has certainly been a factor which has steered me away from Miele commercial equipment. Of course the caravan site can afford to pay for a repair, but is it wise to buy from Miele when the nearest service agent is a three-hour round trip away? In point of fact we’ve had only one failure of laundry equipment in that commercial environment in eight years — a door microswitch in an American dryer — and the factory spare part was in my hands at the cost of a couple of pounds and within 24 hours. Is it too much to look for the same from Miele?
Just for you John, from the front page of Miele’s website.
http://www1.miele.de/iinet/gb/callassistance/ca.aspx
Could they be any more obliging?
Front page has changed since I last looked at it.
Could they be more obliging? Yes, of course they could, though the sort of guidance provided is welcome, even if it’s really the sort of end-user guidance necessary to stop wasteful service visits where the problem is one which any end user should be able to sort out. The sort of thing that one should expect to find in user manuals — and indeed Miele have always done user manuals which are better than most, especially with regard to programming instructions.
What is rather more interesting is the 5yr and 10yr “free” parts and labour “special offers” on certain models and the £149 charge to upgrade from the 5yr to the 10yr offer.. Clearly in the latter case, Miele expect that repairs which will cost Miele (as distinct from what the retail cost to the customer would have been) an average of £30 per year from year 6 to year 10 inclusive.
Fair enough buy, as long as the 10 year offer is in force. It still suggests to me an attitude of “Write the machine off over 10 years and regard anything further by way of machine life as a bonus. Still a long way short of 20 years design life.
My car, which has a seven-year design life, is over nine years old. It’s exceeded its design life with nothing significant beyond “consumable” parts. I can’t blame the manufacturer for parts failure from now on. No part has failed inside its design life. Even so, I expect replacement parts be priced equitably, which they are. I would look for neither more nor less from Miele.
Wow, this is all really interesting. I came across this thread after researching a problem with my Miele dishwasher (an F14 fault code), which is 12 months out of its 5 year guarantee. I’ve been quoted a £108 callout charge by Miele, and looking at costs of parts (£450 and up for a circulation pump!!) I’m thinking it’s too risky.
I shall most likely scrap the machine and replace it with a cheaper brand. Never again.
Pete Griffiths wrote
There’s simply no way that any pump in a domestic appliance is worth £450. And the drain pump I replaced this year on a Miele washing machine was woefully pathetic in terms of quality — I’ve never seen a shaft so under-specified in my life.
One might rather have expected that a pump failing significantly short of its design life should be replaced at a nominal materials cost and the failed part charged back by Miele to the supplier who had failed to provide a pump meeting the design-lfe specification..
The trouble is that the pump may be not faulty – it could be simply that the impeller needs cleaning. I could (almost) stomach paying £108 for an engineer to clean it. What I couldn’t stomach is paying the callout only to be told I need to pay a further £450 for a new pump.
What’s more – I’m a reasonably competent DIY’er – but there are no drawings in the public domain that would help me to tackle this job by myself.
Thanks for posting the basic troubleshooting link Anonymous. Some of the information there may be useful for some Miele users, though it’s all pretty basic stuff so I’m not sure why it was accompanied by the phrase, “could they be any more obliging?”
Every manufacturer publishes such basic troubleshooting in order (primarily) to cut down on in-guarantee calls to their service engineers to avoid frustration and confrontation when the customer expects the fault to be covered (and therefore not be charged), but it turns out to be something pretty silly that shouldn’t be covered under the guarantee.
Things like – “washer doesn’t start – check that it’s plugged in, check the door is closed, check it’s switched on” are not technical information. As with all such manufacturers “help” sections they only cover extremely silly, basic issues and advise customers to call their engineers for anything else.
On the odd occasion the guide strays away from basic silly problems into more technical faults the advice is typically unhelpful. An example of which is -
“An exclamation mark and ‘Technical fault’ flashes in the display.
Cause: There is a technical fault.
Remedy: Switch the machine off and disconnect from the mains supply. Reconnect the machine, switch on and restart the programme. If the fault persists, contact Miele Service.”
I hate to appear critical again, the guide is every bit as good (or bad) as every other manufacturer’s similar guide and an expected facility on any manufacturer’s web site. I merely point out that it is nothing to do with the subject of this topic and it will help no one with any real faults or error codes.
Peter Griffiths
Points taken entirely.
The trouble is that Miele appear to be engaging in a rather confused marketing strategy, touting a long design life, but at the same time marketing on the assumption that as with kitchens, a maximum economic lifespan of ten years — or even five years — is quite acceptable.
Presumably very few contributing to this particular on this website subscribe to that way of thinking. My own kitchen units went in 33 years ago. Our viewpoint seems to be one in which Miele are not interested.
Yes, of course Miele equipment is nice to use. So a