There’s been a lot of talk about a new EU directive proposing to give everyone a 2 year guarantee on all products. Many articles are even saying this new right is being suppressed in the UK and consumers are being deceived by retailers. The truth is that it is not the extension to the manufacturer’s 12 month parts and labour guarantee that some seem to believe it is. It isn’t a new law giving us 2 year guarantees instead of 1 year.
This ruling says that consumers have a right to claim against a retailer regarding faulty goods for a period of 2 years. However, in the UK we not only already have this right but we have it for a much longer period of 6 years, with 5 years in Scotland.
This can be confirmed by the reaction of the Citizens Advice Bureau -
“The limitation on legally required provision of redress to a two year period is an important reduction in protection (my emphasis) for UK consumers..”.
Source: Eu proposals for a Consumer Rights Directive (Pdf)
The UK Sale of Goods Act already offers us protection against faulty goods even when the manufacturer’s guarantee has run out and says that goods must last a “reasonable time” – which can be claimed anything up to 6 years from the date of purchase.
The problem is that what is a reasonable time is subject to much interpretation and is also affected by how much a product cost, and how it has been used. Retailers and manufacturers have always stubbornly refused to entertain most claims for free repairs or compensation after the 12 month period and most consumers have historically accepted this even if begrudgingly at times.
The government’s guidelines say:
“Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the price and any description.”
There is no 6 year guarantee
We don’t have the right to free repairs up to the 5 or 6 years in the sense that any faults up to 6 years should be repaired free of charge but I do think many faults that render an appliance uneconomical to repair within the 6 years should be potentially covered (depending on full circumstances). It’s not necessarily automatically unreasonable if a fault develops on a washing machine or other white good within the first 5 or 6 years. Appliances can and do break down and this is accepted in the Sale of Goods Act. However, whilst it might be considered reasonable for a fault to develop on a £200 washing machine after 2 years washing for a family of 4 every day it might not be considered reasonable for a washing machine costing £600 to suffer the same.
Major faults occurring within the first 5 or 6 years (which these days commonly render an appliance beyond economical repair) are a different matter though, and I believe many cases may well be covered. If an appliance breaks down and is unrepairable because of the huge cost quoted to repair it within the 5 or 6 years (especially after only 2 or 3) then I believe there is a strong case that the product has definitely not lasted a reasonable time. You have to take into account how much it cost though, and how much use it’s had. Maybe if a washing machine only cost £200 and did 5 years of heavy washing it could be considered a reasonable lifespan, but one costing £350 and only washing for one person, or a couple, should surely have lasted longer? It’s very much open to interpretation but don’t forget the Sale of Goods Act specifically qualifies the phrase that a product should last a reasonable time by saying “reasonable” is “that (which) a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory”.
A can of worms is waiting to be opened
Until enough people start to fight for these rights and retailers and manufacturers are forced to comply most consumers may have to resort to taking a seller to the small claims court to get a decision on the true extent of their rights ( Small claims court advice ). If this ever occurs on a large scale it will cause serious ripples because the status quo affords a lot of extra profit to retailers and manufacturers and effectively encourages them to continue to produce or sell poor quality rubbish. They financially benefit from doing so through extra sales when they don’t last, extra repair business, extra sales of spare parts and sales of extended warranties, which mostly cover repairs within the period that consumer legislation says many products shouldn’t be seriously breaking down within anyway – and so shouldn’t be necessary. I’m sure many people take out an extended warranty to protect them from the fear of a major fault developing within the first 5 years, which may well be covered under the Sales of Goods Act.
What would happen if consumers actually received their statutory rights?
I suspect retailers were made responsible for all problems with the products they sell – even when it’s clearly not their fault – for two reasons. Firstly because the customer only has a contract with the people they bought from – and not the people who made it. They shouldn’t have to negotiate with faceless third parties. Secondly, and I’d like to think this was intended though it’s only speculation on my part, if retailers sell rubbish they (in theory) should suffer financial and time consuming consequences and would either stop selling the rubbish or put pressure on manufacturers to improve quality.
Unfortunately retailers do sell a lot of poor quality products that don’t last anywhere near as long as they should, and of course manufacturers continue to make them. Because most consumers don’t enforce their consumer rights both manufacturers and retailers generally profit nicely from sub standard quality and have little incentive to produce or sell better quality products. Consumers take most of the impact of poor quality goods themselves by paying out extra for extended warranties or by replacing products far too often, or by paying out to repair products within the first 6 years when the retailer may well be liable. Most manufacturers (of appliances at least) own so many brands they don’t even fear people being so dissatisfied with a brand that they don’t buy it again because they own many of the “alternative” brands. ( Who owns who? Who really makes your appliance? )
If consumers en mass started to reject the status quo it would put the cat amongst the pigeons and cause a lot of trouble for retailers and manufacturers. Retailers in particular wouldn’t know what had hit them. In the end they’d have to stop selling rubbish because they could no longer profit from doing so. They would only be able to survive selling products that were good enough to last the “reasonable time” expected.
I wouldn’t try to say that most appliances are so rubbish that the majority of them don’t last (although some might), but there’s little doubt that an unacceptable percentage of white goods appliances do suffer expensive breakdowns well within the first 5 or 6 years and this current situation, which is bad for the environment as well as consumers, is only viable because it’s the consumer that bears most of the financial costs. If the consumer refused to accept this burden it would pass back to the retailer as the Sale of Goods Act intended and guess what – the retailers would ensure products they sold were more reliable.
Would we be better off?
This paragraph is a little tongue in cheek but believe it or not I would worry about how all this could impact the economy especially in these very tough times for retailers. If there’s one thing I’ve learnt from the “credit crunch” it’s that our economy seems to be based almost entirely on everyone buying lots of products they do not need, and replacing them way too regularly. As soon as we enter a time when people stop buying things they don’t really need we have mass unemployment and business’s struggle. So if all products were much more reliable it could have a big impact on sales and jobs. It would however be better environmentally and that’s pretty important at the moment.
The cost of products would have to go up because you can’t have very cheap and very reliable. It’s ironic that in a way, all these shoddy goods help keep our economy going. However, the same could be said for crime and vandalism, think how many jobs would be lost if there was no crime – seriously it would be millions. There’s no need for every product to be high quality and there’s plenty of room for a healthy variance in quality but products should still last a “reasonable” time and most people would think a white goods appliance lasting less than 5 or 6 years before a major fault renders it not worth repairing is not reasonable in most circumstances.
Fair Wear and Tear clause
A vital point to realise is that the Sale of Goods act in the UK giving rights to compensation for between 5 and 6 years is not a guarantee or warranty. There has always been a fair wear and tear clause and it has always said that it does not mean that no breakdowns at all should occur within this period -
“Goods cannot always be expected to work fault-free. They can break down through normal use. Buyers cannot, therefore, expect to hold the seller responsible for fair wear and tear. There needs to be a fault that was present on the day of sale even though it only became apparent later on, or a mis-description of the goods, or a lack of durability that suggests the goods were not of satisfactory quality to start with”.
Research further
Last year I spent a few weeks researching consumer rights and wrote an entire section focussing on consumer rights for washing machine owners though most of the advice should be equally relevant for most appliances and even other products.
John Lewis give a minimum 2 year guarantee on all washing machines, 3 year guarantee on all John Lewis own brand appliances and 5 year warranties on all TVs although they take the form of “free” extended warranties run by an extended warranty company after the first year.
Many manufacturers give 2 year guarantees (such as Bosch) and even 5 year parts and labour guarantees such as Miele or 10 year guarantees (ISE10 and occasionally Miele). The longer the guarantee period the better. However, any guarantee given by a retailer or a manufacturer, as the famous phrase says, “is in addition to your statutory rights”. The Sale of goods Act is a separate right which often needs fighting for and is shrouded in mystery, confusion and denial as well as (to be fair) often over inflated expectations from consumers.
Here’s what the government advises retailers regarding their obligations
I’ve highlighted some phrases in bold.
“If a customer rejects faulty goods within this ‘reasonable’ period, they’re entitled to ask for their money back. All customers can claim compensation at any time if they choose. If you sell to consumers they can ask for a repair or a replacement immediately (instead of asking for a refund) at any time until six years after purchase.
If you’re dealing with a consumer, any repair or replacement you arrange must not cause them too much inconvenience. You may have to pay for other costs such as transportation. However, if a replacement is impossible and the goods cannot be repaired economically, or vice versa, then you can offer a full or partial refund.
In law you have a responsibility to your customer for up to six years from the date of purchase (in Scotland, five years from discovery of the problem). During this period, you are legally obliged to deal with any claim of breach of contract.”
Source The Sale of Goods Act: The rights of customers: goods
“If faulty goods are involved and the purchase was made a reasonably short time ago, you should offer a refund. Although they won’t usually do so, the customer may claim compensation from you – either immediately following the sale or up to six years afterwards. If they do so and it’s a reasonable claim, you can either offer to repair or replace the goods, or to provide an appropriate sum in redress”
Source The Sale of Goods Act:What do I have to do if a customer complains?
Related Links -
My washing machine is now out of guarantee, but I don’t think I should have to pay for a repair (An article on my Washerhelp.co.uk washing machine site: consumer section)
I’ve read all the consumer advice about washing machines, I’m thinking of taking them to court (This page contains a link which allows you to pursue a small claim online, without even having to leave home. The article is about washing machines but the link can be used to pursue any small claims court action)
My Consumer advice section Research consumer issues on Washerhelp.
The above link includes many links to consumer booklets and guides as well as looking at many related FAQs regarding white goods and repairs. One of the most useful guides available is written for retailers. This is a valuable guide for retailers, but as consumers it is very useful to see what retailers are being told are their responsibilities by the Department of Trade & Industry.
The Law Relating to the Supply of Goods and Services – A TRADER’S GUIDE (pdf file)
UPDATE: 16/10/2009
I’ve just found a useful BBC news page Five consumer laws you really ought to know. There are several references to washing machines and white goods in the article and the comments below it.
UPDATE: Sept 2011
Thinking about it, retailers have nothing to lose by simply denying any responsibility (apart from goodwill and reputation of course – which you’d expect they’d be more caring about). If approached by a customer with a valid case and they pay up it costs them a certain amount of money. If they fight it all the way, most customers give up. In the rare cases where customers don’t give up and eventually win, the retailer only pays out roughly what they would have in the first place. It’s a no-brainer for any retailer that isn’t overly bothered about happy, life-time customers, and thinks there’s plenty more fish in the sea..
As I say they’ve nothing to lose except their reputation and future custom of the customer and their friends and relatives. Their arrogance, and complete lack of concern about losing another customer implies they are concerned primarily with immediate profit. That’s why shopping at places like John Lewis and possibly the Co-operative Electrical who generally have well earned reputations they are proud of and try to maintain makes a lot of sense. I believe they are more likely to genuinely try to resolve any genuine issues than most other retailers.
(I have affiliate relationships with John Lewis & Co-operative electrical but the above paragraph still represents my sincere opinion. I also have affiliate links with most other retailers)
As a retailer I feel very frustrated by the mixed messages we seem to be getting on the above issue.
Only last week I read a leading trade paper that stated that retailers were not bound by a 6 year warranty period set down in European legislation.
Like us, most retailers want to keep exsisting customers and would not begrudge going the extra mile to keep our customers happy. What would help on this issue would be a definate piece of Uk legislation on the matter to clear up once and for all the mixed messages that retailers seem to be getting.
Thanks for your contribution Nick: Retailers are bound by the UK’s 6 year period (5 in Scotland) defined under the Sales of Goods Act. It’s not a warranty period or guarantee period though, the only “guarantee” we get is from the manufacture which as we all know, “does not affect our statuary rights”.
It’s just the period in which a consumer is entitled to take a retailer to court if they believe the goods they bought were not fit for purpose or haven’t lasted a reasonable time.
In my opinion any major product costing hundreds of pounds should not suffer a major breakdown within 6 years, especially one that renders it uneconomical to repair. The problem is that some products are so cheap one could argue it is naive to expect them to last more than 6 years anyway.
If you buy a washing machine for £200 and use it to wash for a family of 5 and the main bearings or motor fails after 5 years it could be argued that it’s still “reasonable” considering the work it’s done and the relatively small amount it cost.
In cases of “cheap” products it may need a small claims court to decide. I doubt there would be so much uncertainty though if a consumer has purchased an expensive product and it breaks down needing very expensive repairs within 5 or 6 years. The chances are though that the consumer will meet great resistance from the retailer and would need to be extremely insistent, stubborn and prepared to use the small claims court to get their “rights”. At the moment the majority of consumers don’t either realise the extent of their rights or aren’t prepared to fight for them.
Thanks for your help on this issue. I fear this will continue to be a sticking point within the industry. I have an example of a problem our company faced 6 months ago.
One of our customers bought a creda freestanding cooker from us 3 1/2 years ago. when she contacted us 6 months ago she told us that rust marks were appearing around one of the hob hotplates. She had contacted Creda to get the machine exchanged. As expected Creda point blank refused stating the machine was out of its warranty period. The customer then got back to us asking for us to remove the damaged appliance and provide her with a replacement free of charge, which as reputable dealer we gladly did at our own expense. We tried to get Creda to take the appliance back from us for credit and surprise surprise they point blank refused to help us aswell. Now i could take this matter further and try and take creda to court but frankly is it really worth all the time and effort to do so.We are now left with a 3 1/2 year old appliance which cannot be sent back being left to gather rust and dust in our warehouse.
My point here is that if creda are supplying us with a machine that has gone rusty within a 3 1/2 year period of time why does the small retalier have to bear the complete loss on supplying the replacement appliance to the customer. Surely Creda or any other manufacturer that makes appliances must hold some responsabilty for the products they supply and should help the retailer if the applinace becomes faulty within a reasonable period of time. Small retailers cannot bear this loss alone and will need help from the manufacturers. Until the manufacturers are forced to take responsabilty for the long term quality of the products they make i fear small retailers will the ones who lose out the most while the people who make these machines get away scott free.
Hello Nick: It sounds like your company is reputable and defends its reputation even at cost to itself. Your customer was very lucky to get the cooker exchanged, which wouldn’t have happened with a larger retailer I’m sure. After using it for 3 and a half years, if she was entitled to a refund it would be a refund minus the value of 3 and a half years use. This would have to be worked out by trying to find the average life expectancy of the product.
A retailer isn’t obliged to replace the product unless it’s unrepairable, only to repair it or offer a refund minus the appropriate amount for the use the customer has had from it, or to offer some amount of compensation if still usable and they accept compensation instead. It all depends on the exact circumstances.
Your example highlights a major flaw in the Sales of Goods Act, which is that it gives rights to a consumer to be borne by the retailer but gives no rights to the retailer who is not responsible for the quality of the product. It’s one of the reasons I got out of selling finished goods and cannot imagine ever selling them again because of the unfair burden on retailers – particularly small ones. Having said that though, the retailer is responsible for choosing to profit from selling the goods they sell, and so one argument is that this is why they are fair game. If a retailer profits from selling rubbish then they get what they deserve don’t they? In practice though this is a simplistic view as most of the problems are caused by products not being so rubbish that no one will sell them, but being of just the right sub-standard quality to make them viable – as long as customers and retailers bear the main consequences of the lack of quality – instead of the manufacturers.
A small retailer should have exactly the same rights as a consumer regarding the quality of products but they don’t. In theory the customer demands recompense from the retailer and in turn the retailer, who is only a customer of the manufacturer, demands recompense from the manufacturer. That way everything gets sorted. The problem is that only the end consumer can quote the Sales of Goods Act, which (as far as I’m aware) does not apply to the retailer who can quote nothing.
National retailers have great clout, they don’t need to quote anything, just threaten to stop stocking their product. The manufacturers often dance to their tune and believe me the major retailers do have power over the manufacturers.
The middle and lower retailers though have little or no clout and can’t make demands. The most they can do is stop retailing a product but as they are so small it’s as a flea bite to an elephant. Small retailers are often just grateful a manufacturer even allows them to sell their products, or are so small they can only buy through third party wholesalers where their power is just as weak.
Small to medium sized retailers have no obvious rights and have no influence over giant manufacturers. The most they can threaten is to stop retailing a brand which they usually don’t want to do so they end up bearing the costs and the hassle themselves. The only people I can think of that could be a help to small retailers in this situation are the Federation of Small Businesses who have a legal helpline as part of the benefits of (paid) membership. I have emailed them asking for their take on this.
I’ve just added a new paragraph to my original article entitled “Fair Wear and Tear clause” which you may find interesting. The quote is from the The Law Relating to the Supply of Goods and Services – A TRADER’S GUIDE (pdf) which offers a vital insight to a retailers responsibilities as advised to them by the Department of Trade & Industry.
Thanks for your detailed help on this matter. Many thanks
The life of Fridge-Freezers
I bought my L~G fridge-freezer less than five years ago from a reputable local retailer (RLR).
>> It started running madly the side (and later the back) of the casing >> heating up. Only way to stop it was to switch off at the mains.
>> I rang RLR who said they would send a man round for the standard call-out fee.
>> He came, offered four equally unsatisfactory explanations:
>> 1. I had been leaving the door open
>> 2. the door-seal had Failed
>> He then removed the grille at the back
>> 3. it needed re-gassing
>> 4. the capillaries were blocked. I asked what with. “With solids”>> I queried this, how could it happen in a liquid/to gas/to liquid/to gas >> system. He gave no reply., but re-fixed the grille (8 screws)
>> He then recommended I buy a new one – which would get me a £20 reduction >> of his bill, which he wrote out for £46 plus VAT.
>> I gave him my cheque as in duty bound, but know I had been swindled
Fair wear and tear is a valid exception to the 6 year rule but if your fridge needs replacing after less than 5 years how can that be fair wear and tear? Most people would agree that a fridge should last much longer than 5 years so if it is truly beyond economical repair you have a case for arguing it has not lasted a reasonable time.
The problem is that honouring these consumer laws will cost retailers a fortune and they are trying to dodge the responsibility. If the people you bought it from refuse to offer any compensation you have no choice but to go to the small claims court and let them decide.
If they decide in your favour though you will not be entitled to a full refund because you’ve had use of the appliance for almost 5 years. It could be decided for example that it’s lasted around half as long as it reasonably should have and therefore you should get half your money back.
There are some useful links in my Washerhelp consumer section I’ve read all the consumer advice about washing machines, I’m thinking of taking them to court
Of course I agree that after five years I should not expect my money back.
What I do expect is a correct diagnosis, and trhe replacement of whichever component has failed.
Repair would not have cost the retailer anything since I was under the illusion that I would pay the price of that component in the same way as I paid the “engineer’s” call-out fee.
Was this man ‘qualified’ only to con elderly women into buying a new appliace because the old one must be written off?
Have just read (under the Repaircare heading) contributions by someone whose his fridge-freezer needed only a “pcb” replacement.
What is a “pcb” please.
My appliance’s compressor and gas were working; was it a “pcb” fault that the “engineer” should have diagnosed BUT DID NOT?
Incidentally I DID carefully study the “handbook” that came with the appliance. Very limited “trouble-shooting” advice. Nothing whatosever about running on and on apparently out of control.
Lilly: PCB is a Printed Circuit Board. It’s a board full of resistors and microchips etc.
I’m presuming from your description that there wasn’t enough gas in the machine due to a leakage. This meant the fridge could never be brought down to temperature and would run continuously.
It sounds like the machine is beyond economical repair and so the question is has it lasted a reasonable amount of time? Most would say not. You need to go to the small claims court if the retailer refuses to offer any compensation. You can do it online easily and cheaply (links available on my consumer section links in previous comments above)
Thanks for your latest.
No, when I ran the fridge experimentally it cooled from 64deg room temp to 40deg (“Normal” setting) in a couple of hours, so presumably gas and compressor were OK. It’s juist that the motor wouldnot stop running… …
Hence my question about pcb – or what about thermostats, are they indepednet, or incorporated into the pcb?
I assume purchasing one of these would be possible and MUST cost less and be QUICKER than going to a small claims court?
As usual, L.
Lilly: The way I see it is -
Either your fridge is beyond economical repair in which case you need to decide whether to accept this, or claim in the small claims court (which is actually pretty simple) against the seller under the Sales of Goods act.
Or, your fridge has been misdiagnosed and is repairable. Unfortunately you can’t know this for sure without getting a second engineer out. Although I appreciate you are trying to find this out without getting an engineer we can’t get bogged down in trying to diagnose individual appliance faults.
The best I can do is say that the diagnosis of not having enough gas because of a leak and therefore the appliance is not worth repairing is feasible. If a pcb or stat fault was causing the fridge to run continuously all the milk should freeze and it would get very cold indeed. On the other hand if there isn’t enough gas in to allow it to reach the required temperature it would run continuously because it can’t get cold enough to trip the stat.
If you suspect the fridge is repairable you need to get another engineer (I’d recommend an LG dealer). If he confirms it’s not worth repairing you should be able to claim his costs as part of your compensation claim.
If he says it is repairable for a reasonable cost you can try to claim back the money you paid for the first engineer and also decide whether to accept the repair as reasonable, or try to claim it is unreasonable to need this repair after 5 years or so in which case a small claims court judgement in your favour would be required.
Unfortunately all this is a lot of stress and hassle which is why most people don’t bother and why most legitimate claims under the Sales of Goods Act don’t get pursued.
I have just one month over the year guarantee Acer pc, I have contacted Acer as it has a fault they have told me since it is now out of warranty, I will have to pay £51.99 for collection and then pay for the repairs, I did state this EU directive but they insist they only have to give one year, do I have any rights I purchased the Acer from QVC should I go back to them, any help would be appreciated.
Regards
Paula
Paula. Although your query isn’t regarding a white goods appliance the principles should be the same. The phrase, “we only have to give one years guarantee” is a bit of nonsense really because they don’t have to give any specific guarantee and many manufacturers give 2 year, 3 year, 5 year – 10 year warranties. And, as they are all forced to point out in their literature, the manufacturer’s guarantee “does not affect your statutory rights”.
The statutory rights they mention are government imposed consumer rights written in The Sales of Goods Act as discussed in this article. The guarantee’s they give to us when we buy a product are, “in addition to your statutory rights.
The statutory rights say a product should last a reasonable time before breaking down. What’s reasonable depends on the cost and how much usage it’s had but I would have thought most people would say a month out of guarantee isn’t reasonable especially if it’s an expensive fault.
Your only redress is with the people you bought it from but they are likely to fob you off. The manufacturer has no responsibility whatsoever so don’t waste your time with them. Unless they decide to do something out of good will (which can happen) they are just not obliged to do anything even though they made it.
Unfortunately (for the retailers) the retailer is 100% responsible but they are likely to fob you off too. Most retailers probably think it’s unfair that they are responsible and I have a lot of sympathy for that. But we should all be entitled to our rights without a fight (they buy products too don’t they?)
The chances are most of the front line staff at most retailers will genuinely not have been trained about these rights and genuinely think once a product’s out of guarantee it’s just bad luck. Therefore anyone who believes they have a strong case may have to fight their way past them.
All you can do is either shrug it off and accept it, or take advice from the consumer advice people with a view to taking them to the small claims court where a judge will decide if it’s reasonable that it has broken down so quickly or not. You wouldn’t be entitled to your money back but to claim compensation to cover the costs of repair.
You need to read all the advice and booklets linked to on this article and the consumer help pages. It’s a lot of messing about, and most people won’t pursue it because of the hassle and stress, and there’s no guarantee of winning, which is why nothing much changes. However, the small claims court is supposed to make it relatively easy and cheap for ordinary consumers to take a company to court and it can even be done online – Taking a company to the small claims court.
Retailers can’t afford to suddenly start compensating many thousands of people when products break down under 6 years old (5 in Scotland) so most will dig their heels in and refuse to do anything unless forced.
As my original article points out, no one has a blanket 5 or 6 year guarantee under the Sales of Goods Act, people need to read the article and the links from it carefully to understand what their rights are. The UK Sales of Goods Act just sets out the maximum 5 and 6 year terms beyond which it’s too late to use the courts. We have a right for a product to last “a reasonable time” without breaking down and to last a “reasonable” time before needing replacing. What is reasonable is subjective, and all circumstances must be taken into account.
I think products just out of guarantee have a strong case and I definitely believe any expensive product under 5 or 6 years old that breaks down and is beyond economical repair is also a strong case. However, if it’s been flogged really hard and was a budget brand things start to get cloudy.
In our case, we bought replacement doors and side panels for our kitchen units. We assumed they were oak veneers. It transpires they were what is termed ‘foil’ (resembles vinyl wallpaper) glued onto MDF. A boiling kettle will over time melt the glue, loosening the foil, creating a bubbling effect. After 4 years, this has happened to us, but as we have no washing machine or tumble-dryer, this must have happened to others within 2 years. Indeed the retailers admitted (verbally) to at least one such problem. Trading Standards said we had a claim within the 6 year rule. The retailers would only replace ‘at cost’, i.e. at cost to us, but in any event they had nothing which we could accept. They ‘do not pay compensation. The original cost was £600 plus about £1400 labour, as drawers had to be made to replace the originals. Replacement with what are apparently more durable surfaces, ‘laminated’, will cost about £650 plus £300 labour. We have taken the claim to the Small Claims Court, for an amount between £950 and £2000, as we do not know the actual cost for certain.
On the advice of a solicitor, as we paid our joiner for the goods, who had paid the retailers, we have to sue the joiner, the retailers, their suppliers (and as these suppliers have brought in the manufacturers as an extra defendant (having initially declined to give me their details)), the manufacturers.
As the retailers had not submitted their Acknowledgement
of Service in time, I posted my claim for judgment on 29th December, 1st. class. The Court says they do not have it. Meanwhile the retailers have declared their intention to defend, which is being allowed, as it would be, the court says, even if they had received my claim for judgment.
The three dealers are limited companies, so have to use a solicitor, the same one in this case. It appears important to them to continue to sell rubbish.
I’m doing my bit against shoddy goods. Is anyone else?
Please keep us informed on your case Ken. Although it’s not directly related to appliances it’s interesting to see how people get on when taking a trader to the small claims court.
Your case sounds a bit complex but if you buy kitchen doors they must be for for their purpose, and one of their purposes is to be fitted to the front of the cupboards above the kitchen worktop. Everyone knows kettles are normally used on these worktops so presumably any kitchen cupboard door should be designed to withstand the steam from a boiling kettle.
Hi,
I have read through your different posts, and all are of interest. I have been reading a lot around this subject, purely from a business I am starting up ( have not mentioned it here as don’t want to be accused of jumping on the bandwagon as such, if people want to know I wil post another piece with its details, it will be of use to people who commented here on this post.).
I am interested to know of all those people when you returned to the retailer or manufacturer with their particular product issues, did you have the following :
(A) Receipt, and where you asked for it?
(B) Knowledge of guarantee length and expiration?
This will help me understand more the issues that consumers are having with manufacturers and retailers, as this will help me fine tune the service I am working on.
This website is a great resource for consumers,I will follow it more, and thanks for this very informative post.
hi i purchased a slimline dishwasher in March 2008 from an online store, i had it fitted by a corgi regisyered gas fitter/plumber. i live alone so it is only used every 2/3 days, last week it kept switching itself off a few minutes after starting, and i had to unplug it and wait to restart it, but still same. i have had a plumber/ white goods engineer out today who says the pump need replacing, it has been leaking,maybe since fitted, as inside of area has lots of rust, says he will get price on pump, but maybe over £100, then it still may need new circuit board, but will not be able to tell until fitted new pump. i have contacted the retailer who says all appliances sold are brand new and carry 12 month warranty. i live on the isle of wight and paided £45 for delivery, so do not think the retailer will have engineer to call here. do i contact Belling, or the retailer to sort this out?
Linda. As mentioned in the article and comments after, under the sale of Goods Act it’s the retailer you would need to complain to if you believe it’s not been of reasonable quality and has not lasted a reasonable time.
Whether this is the case or not is far from clear and may need to be tested in the small claims court. There’s little doubt most retailers will fight you but that doesn’t mean they will win. It just means probably 99% of people will begrudgingly accept what they say. I can’t imagine any retailer accepting responsibility for a repair out of guarantee unless you fight, they will simply say, sorry, it’s out of guarantee there’s nothing we can do. However, this is not true. They are responsible under the Sale of Goods Act if you can show the appliance was not fit for purpose, or not of reasonable quality or has not lasted a reasonable time.
Having said that we can’t say no appliance should ever break down at all out of guarantee so it depends on looking at all circumstances. If a minor fault develops maybe most people would accept it, but if the repair costs are going to be very expensive – and as commonly happens these days – beyond economical repair you probably have a good case that the appliance has not lasted a reasonable time.
It doesn’t matter how rubbish a product may turn out to be, the manufacturer didn’t sell you the appliance, the retailer did, and the contract is between you and who you bought it from. It’s up to the retailer to take it up with the manufacturer if they have to pay out compensation.
As you’ve found, retailers are reluctant to deal with this aspect of the sale of goods act and they’ve got away with it for so long they’ve all but forgotten about its implications. They are just not geared up for dealing with and more importantly paying out for thousands of claims under the Sale of Goods Act on appliances under 6 years old but outside of the manufacturer’s guarantee.
Therefore only people prepared to go to the trouble of fighting for their rights and of course taking a chance they might lose the claim will pursue anything past the first brush off from the retailer and so nothing much changes. Generally, if you can show it hasn’t lasted a reasonable time you can claim compensation, which often may be the costs of the repair and of course your (minor) small claims court costs. If the appliance is beyond economical repair you may be entitled to claim a refund minus an appropriate amount for the use you have had from it prior to the fault.
Linda,
I think a very good response has been posted to your query, as pointed out the retailer is obliged under law to help in these circumstances and getting your problem fixed. Have you got any updates for us, always interested to know what has been said and what further action is been taken to rectify the situation for you.
Sincerely,
Joe
Thanks to the information and advice provided by Andy I have at last had the defective fridge-freezer removed, and replaced by a Beko model of similar size at a cost of abt £148 (free collection and delivery)- roughly half list price.
This is rather more satisfactory than the “engineer’s” indication of £20 off his bill if I bought a new appliance! (See eearlier entries on blog above).
Thanks again, Andy, for the moral support and effective help.
Lilly.
Many thanks Lilly.
Anyone following this article might be interested to know I’ve added a few paragraphs to the original article quoting advice given by the government to retailers and linking to a business advice site run by the government. It’s down near the bottom under the heading Here’s what the government advises retailers regarding their obligations
Thankyou for the information on here. I have a faulty hotpoint fride freezer only 14 months old purchased from currys, and thought I didnt have any rights as the manufacturers guarantee was only 12 months and I couldnt afford extended warranty.
I now intend to go down to currys and argue my case with them.
Thanks, please let us know how you get on.
Went down this morning, the manager was very nice, but obviously well versed in the trading laws. He said he was unable to authorise any sort of refund or compensation, and the best chance of me getting anything of that sort would be to write a hand written letter to Customer Services, Currys, the parkway, Sheffield, when I have had an engineer come to look at the appliance and diagnosed the fault. If it was a faulty part that was either faulty from purchase or had become faulty without any sort of mis-use on our part, then Currys ‘may’ pay for the repair and refund the cost of the engineers call-out / labour.
The problem with fridge/freezers is: When one breaks, you need another replacement immediately, and unless you have a garage or large house with enough room to store the old one, theres nowhere to put the broken appliance while the engineer comes. So either way I have had to buy a new one.
I assume the small claims court will also require proof of the fault by an engineers report, in which case I cannot claim as I have nowhere to put the old appliance, and cannot now afford to lay out money for an engineers callout now I have had to purchase a new fridgefreezer (we walked straight OUT of Currys and into Comets !)
Lesson learned for me, I have purchased a 5 year warranty on my new samsung fridgefreezer…..
Miss J Hunt: You highlight one of the problems with this situation. No retailer will just give us a refund because we say an appliance has broken down. They need to have their engineer or the manufacturer’s engineer check it out first. This is reasonable. As you point out though, with most of our white goods appliances we don’t have time to wait around and let this drawn out process happen.
In your case though, as you have a Hotpoint appliance, you can get the Hotpoint engineer to repair it for £104.97 which includes parts and labour ( http://www.washerhelp.co.uk/manufacturer-charges.html ) – So you don’t need to buy a new fridge!
Either they will repair it for the £104.97, or they will say it’s not worth repairing (if by any chance it’s something serious). If they repair it, for £104.97 you can put in a claim to Currys for compensation of the cost of the repair under the Sale of Goods Act by claiming it hasn’t lasted a reasonable amount of time.
If the Hotpoint engineer said it wasn’t repairing of course you’d have definite proof that it hasn’t lasted a reasonable time to take to Currys.
The important thing to remember is that it is the retailer who sold it to you that’s responsible for compensation and not the manufacturer although some manufacturers may occasionally offer to replace appliances or do a free repair.
If you decide to buy a new fridge immediately you would need to get Hotpoint or the Currys engineer out to look at the old one as soon as possible but they may well find out it’s easily fixable and you didn’t need a new one after all.
On your last comment about the lesson being to buy an extended guarantee. That’s one way of dealing with this problem, but you will pay a lot of money out over the years, thousands probably. All to cover appliances in the first 5 years when they shouldn’t be suffering serious breakdowns anyway, and even if they do the retailers are often responsible for compensating us for it.
The trouble is it’s inconvenient and often hard work to get this compensation so the majority of people never pursue it and will even pay out extra money for the largely unnecessary cover. I understand why so many people do it for an easier life but we should never need to insure all our many products for the first 5 years, they should be good enough quality to last at least 5 years. All consumer groups including Which? advise it’s bad value for money.
I have one of these RSH1 samsung fridge freezers, nearly 3 years old, two days ago it started making a noise like a fan was catching on something, it has now stopped, but so has my water dispenser and ice maker, I have phoned samsung and they said a local guy will come by soon and do some safety wiring check, is these two problems conected?
Sparky: No. Is it one of these? Samsung RS21 and RS60 range fridge freezers recall: Potential fire risk
Also, the symptoms you describe are commonly caused by ice forming around the fan which pumps the cold air round. If it’s now stopped it could be because the fan is completely encased in ice and stopped running.
It’s been a problem with Samsung frost free fridge freezers for a long time.
Have read the exchange with interest and feel a lot more confident about my consumer rights. I have a £700.00 Whirlpool washing machine which screams like a banshee on spin – something is on its way out after only 15 months use, I am ready to tackle the Retailer but guess what – neither Whirlpool who supplied it nor Domestic and General who I paid for it will own up to being the Retailer – so just wondering if anyone got similar issue/solution
Hello Paul: That’s a lot of money for a Whirlpool. They are supposed to be a budget brand in the UK.
I’m assuming your situation is that your new machine was supplied to replace a previous one that was beyond economical repair and covered under Domestic & General’s insurance policy? I would assume whoever supplied it, and received your money is the one you have the contract with. It’s less clear than a normal purchase but someone must have sold it to you. Please let us know how you get on with this.
Whirlpool –
I have a whirlpool AWOD 6727
I have had it for 14 months it began screaming and banging and the bearings have gone on the drum = it gave me an electric shock. Guess what Neither Whirlpool or Comet want to know – quoting YOU SHOULD HAVE BOUGHT EXTRA WARRANTY. Comet offered to come and look at it they wanted to charge me for the call out and then go away write a report and decide who was to blame – how long would all that take. I called them on Thursday and they could not come till tuesday and then go away and write the report. I meanwhile have NO WASHING MACHINE. I have written and emailed to the Chief Executive of COMET and am awaiting a reply.
R Wright: Apologies for not replying sooner.
Saying that you should have bought an extended warranty looks a bit disingenuous. By purchasing an extended warranty you absolve them of most Sale of Goods responsibilities because by paying for extra cover any Sale of Goods claims can be just dealt with by the insurance company instead of them. To make matters worse if they are an authorised repair dealer for the insurance company they will even get paid for sorting out the problem they are obliged under consumer law to compensate you for. No wonder they love the extended warranties.
Having said that, it could be argued that taking out this cover does offer some useful protection against this sort of situation because as you are finding, claiming against the retailer for a product that hasn’t lasted a reasonable time is a hassle to say the least, which is why the vast majority of legitimate claims are never made, or if made never followed up.
It’s a bit of a cheek for a retailer to say you need to take out extra insurance (which they profit from), so that if it turns out they’ve sold you a rubbish product you don’t have to fight them to get compensated and they don’t have to lose out financially by compensating you.
Having said that –
When a customer has a broken down appliance, which they feel hasn’t lasted a reasonable time and is therefore covered under the Sale of Goods Act they naturally complain to the retailer. However, it’s quite legitimate for the retailer to not immediately just accept the complaint and compensate them. They have a right to send someone out to inspect the appliance first. They also have a right to charge the customer if it turns out not to be a valid case – although clearly there is a lot of room for dispute about how valid the case may be, and a retailer may dispute a case that a small claims court may validate.
Example -
A customer could complain that the bearings have gone, and the washing machine is making a horrible grinding noise, but the truth could be that the noise is coming from a small nail or screw left in a pocket and being ground by the impeller. There are numerous examples of faults a customer could be unaware are not really the fault of the appliance, some of which I highlight in this article – I don’t want my washing machine repaired – I want it exchanged
A customer could complain after 20 months the washing machine has suffered a major breakdown and it should have lasted longer, but it could be the cheapest washing machine on the market and an engineer may call to the house and see the washing machine is in a bad state, been knocked about and is washing for an extended family of 10 people with mountains of washing piled up in the corner. In such a case (which does happen) they would argue the washing machine has lasted as long as you could reasonably expect for how much it cost and what it’s had to cope with, and they’d probably be right.
So if we accept that in order for both parties to be sure of fair play the retailer will usually need to get an engineer to inspect the machine then the problem is that it’s all going to take time, and there’s the potential for dispute. In your case I would agree to the retailer coming out to inspect the machine and agree to pay their call out if it turns out to be something not covered as long as they agree that if the drum bearings have actually failed that this is unacceptable and you have a right for compensation under the Sale of Goods Act. If they dispute this fact from the start, what is the point of them inspecting the machine?
If they do dispute this you have to decide if you accept that or not, and if not, your only options are to try and enlist a consumer group to help you deal with them, or take them to the small claims court for the cost of the repair or a refund (minus an appropriate amount for the use you’ve had from the machine so far), which can be done online, and should be relatively straight forward ( I want to claim compensation from the repair company or the washing machine seller )
If you do this you have no guarantee you will win out but I’ve heard of many cases where people have received compensation or new products after 3 years and even 5. There seems to be a lack of actual cases to learn from on the Internet (I hope this article will eventually attract enough examples of successful or even failed cases, which we can all learn from).
Unfortunately unless something changes this is the way things are. Whilst this is the case some consumers will prefer to just buy an extended warranty to cover the risk. My personal preference is to use the money an extended warranty costs to buy a better appliance in the first place, preferably one with a longer guarantee, but I accept this isn’t necessarily the best option for everyone. I just find it depressing to think that the people who need the protection of extended warranties the most (because they will be seriously affected by any future repair bills or early replacement costs) are the people who can often least afford to pay extra for virtually every product they buy to “insure” it and would save many thousands of pounds over their lifetime if they didn’t have to fork out for them.
A high quality retailer is likely to be far more mindful of their hard won reputation and more likely to deal favourably with Sale of Goods claims. Retailers trading not so much on reputation but on price, and big volume sales are more likely to be obstructive in the face of such claims.
Re my posting of 8th. Jan. 2010 re faulty kitchen unit doors, I am pleased to report a successful conclusion. A date was fixed for the Small Claims court hearing, but it seemed sensible to consider the local arbitration offered, especially as the judge’s comments implied it would be unwise not to! This can only happen if all parties agree, which took some time to establish. Because of this arrangement, the court hearing was put back until 30th. July.
Meanwhile I had been exchanging letters mainly with the retailer’s owners’ solicitors, who clearly wrote their letters without bothering to read the facts of the case first (for instance that we had already arranged to have replacement unit doors fitted). No doubt they would be charging high fees to their clients for these letters. One such letter showed them in such a bad light, that I forwarded it to the court in order to strengthen my case. The solicitors were quite miffed that I had forwarded a “Without Prejudice” letter, but I pointed out I was just an ordinary member of the public and could not get involved in any legal arguments. I received no more letters from them.
Re the arbitration, which would have involved myself and three other parties being available at the same time on the phone, it was decided it was too complicated to organise, and the court hearing was confirmed. As 30th. July approached, the manufacturers’ solicitors offered £1300 in settlement, £700 from themselves, £300 from the wholesalers, and £300 from the retailers’ owners. This was about £150 more than I would have claimed in an early settlement, and covered the full cost of replacement with doors of a similar cost, but in our view, of better quality.
Finally, on 4th. August, the last two cheques arrived. I hope this encourages others to make claims against suppliers of goods which become unreasonably faulty.
Excellent Ken, many thanks for the update. Your case, although not related to white goods is a perfect example of using the sale of goods act to get compensation even for a much more serious amount than a washing machine and after 4 years.
It’s also a great example of how you usually have to fight for your rights, and be patient. We all have rights under the sale of goods act, but as in civil law, having the right doesn’t automatically get us justice if the other side doesn’t comply.
The lesson is that if you genuinely believe you are in the right, and don’t fall at all the hurdles they throw in front of you, then you can get compensation in the end. You need a just case though. The retailers often won’t comply, not necessarily because they believe they are in the right – but often because they know if they just accept all claims it will cost them a fortune.
If anyone else has examples of where they’ve fought for compensation or recompense please post them, the more the better. Even cases that failed can help us get a handle on this complex issue.
Hi
i am looking for some advice, i purchased a white samsung tv from a company called beyond televisions, the tv cost £750 and broke down after just 6 months, Beyond did get someone out to take the tv out and repair it but now the tv is showing the exact same fault.
i contacted beyond who have told me that the tv is now over the 1 year warranty and they can’t help me now. can you please give me some advice as i am very angry at this. for a brand new tv to give 2 exactly the same faults within 14 months is not acceptible
Please help
Chris
Dear Chris,
Your comment was passed on to me, so here is my reply:
Firstly, I need to explain I am not legally qualified, but I am happy to give you my opinion. Secondly, it is vital that you phone Trading Standards at 0845-404-0506. The advisors there are authorised by the Office of Fair Trading. I had to phone them myself recently after our £200 Samsung washing machine basically died after 2 and a half year
In my personal view, you would need to remind the retailer (who is responsible to you in this case) that even under EU law we have a minimum 2-year cover, and that in any case, since the original fault has not been cured, this failure extends their claimed 1-year cover until the repair is permanent (within the 6 years).
(Please ask Trading Standards if they agree with this!) I would ask T.S. how often the same fault has to occur before you could claim a new replacement or refund.
T.S. may give you advice which means that if the retailer does not agree to comply with their ruling, you would have to take them to the Small Claims Court. As a Limited company has to be represented in the Small Claims Court by a solicitor, and their solicitors would be writing letters to you, it becomes very expensive for them to defend the case, with the risk of additional costs being awarded to you, so they would not normally defend the case in court, but would settle shortly before the case was due to be heard. Retailers assume that you would not ‘go all the way’, because of the hassle involved, but it is important for consumers to take them on until retailers generally get the message. Even the threat of taking them to court may be enough for some retailers, especially in the current economic climate. If, after advice, it turns out that you feel you have to return the TV to the retailer for a refund or replacement with another make, and they refuse, and you buy a replacement somewhere else, you would then claim all the costs through the court.
Also, you should be able to obtain 30 minutes free advice on the matter from any solicitor, I understand, but check first! As using the Small Claims Court may put you off, you can always phone me at 01253-899742 for info about my experience. Please obtain all the leaflets from the court, which will freely be posted to you if you ask your local court.
Hope this helps,
Ken Gorman
Hi Chris: When they said they can’t help you now as it’s out of guarantee they really meant they can’t help you now without inconvenience and cost to themselves. I sympathise with retailers caught in the middle of poor quality products and consumers but as they are profiting from selling these products the government has decided to make them responsible. That way if certain products cost them a lot of money because of extended claims under the sale of goods act they will stop selling them or pressure manufacturers to make them more reliable.
Unfortunately they do have responsibilities under the sale of goods act and you can claim compensation up to 6 years after purchase in the UK. By claim though I mean try to claim.
As my article states though, this in no way means you have a 6 year guarantee (5 in Scotland) covering all faults, it just means consumers can make a claim under the sale of goods act up to 6 years but the claim could be rejected by the courts if it isn’t deemed valid. As Ken says, you need to get the advice of Trading Standards and if they say you have a case confront the shop with it. If they still refuse to do anything you have to take them to the small claims court or at least threaten to.
These “rights” are in no way clear cut, and few if any retailers will willingly give them to us. They have to be fought for either by being insistent, speaking to managers, writing to head office or taking them to the small claims court. I want to claim compensation from the repair company or the washing machine seller
This has been very helpful. I have a Servis washer/dryer bought in July 2007 and the dryer’s mucking about and not working properly right now. I’m going to get a guy out to tell me how much it will cost me to get it fixed but I’m dreading it being loadsa’ money as it cost me £329 then.
If it turns out to be a large quote would you advise I go back to the seller-an online site ?
Many Thanks for any help.
Lynda~
Hello Lynda: If a washing machine breaks down after about 3 and a half years it’s not necessarily an issue that you could get compensation for. The Sale of goods act doesn’t say products should not break down within the first 5 or 6 years, only that they should last a reasonable time and be fit for the purpose.
Occasional breakdowns of a highly mechanical appliance are par for the course so it would depend entirely on what had gone wrong and if it was related in any way to “fair wear and tear” although this would depend on the type of use it’s had.
I would say if a major fault has occurred that makes the washing machine unrepairable (or beyond economical repair) then you should have a case for claiming it hasn’t lasted a reasonable time. In such case you would need to claim against the retailer.
Thankyou for your reply. I think it’s a part in the dryer that’s gone as the top of the machine gets hot but heat doesn’t reach the drum. I guess it will come down to fair wear ‘n’ tear which is what I was thinking, even though it only gets used once a week and not even that in warmer months !!
Cheers, Lynda~
Hello.
I am looking for some advice. I bought a Bosch Frost Free Fridge Freezer in November 2008 it came with the 2 year guarantee. The appliance overheated at the weekend, freezer totally defrosed and fridge overheated, have had to throw everything out and turn off the appliance. When I rang Bosch they said my guarantee had ran out and I could get it fixed if I took out a repair plan. I told them that this was not acceptable and they said sorry you will have to take out a repair plan.
Any suggestions.
Frances
Sorry for not replying sooner Frances: It’s probably too late now ( as you are likely to have had to do something quite quickly with a failed fridge freezer). Whether you have a claim depends very much on what the fault is, and unfortunately this means you have to get an engineer to look at it to find out. No one is going to do anything until they know exactly what has gone wrong. It could turn out to be something fairly minor which you are happy to have fixed.
If it’s a major fault that requires a lot of money to fix or even isn’t worth repairing that’s when your statutory consumer rights should kick in and you would need to take it up with the retailer if you think it hasn’t lasted a reasonable time.
By lasting a reasonable time I believe they mean if it’s completely failed and needs replacing at an unreasonably short time or suffered a serious fault in an unreasonably short time rather than it broke down as some failures can be minor or even related to how they’ve been used.
This web page has been a very useful and interesting
What I would like to know is
Do you need the original receipt of purchase? Or can you use a copy?
For example if I keep all of my receipts I would be using them as a sofa
Could I in fact make a copy and keep it on my pc?
Also I have sky equipment and with this I have a warinty cover that I pay £5 a month for ( to a third party provider ) they have said I needed this because its out of the 12 month manufacturers warinty. If I’m paying B Sky B for the use of there product and after the 2 years manufactures warinty. Can I get a re placement from sky under the sales of good act? And could I also claim my money back from the third part warinty provider because I didn’t need there service anyway?
Trevor: You need proof of purchase, which could be a bank or credit card statement or a copy of the receipt. The copy would have verifiable information on it.
The sale of goods act only makes the original seller of products liable where liability can be shown. A third party warranty is a separate service and would also be covered under the sale of goods act under the providing services section in that it must be fit for its purpose. The company you bought it from would be liable if you could show it wasn’t fit for its purpose.
Hi there,
Very informative website…which sadly is very relevant to us now.
Our problem is the bearings in our washing machine have gone and the entire drum unit requires replacing. The service people have quoted £300 (including parts and labour and VAT) to fix the issue.
This is where our problems begin. We initially had a 2 year warranty that came with the machine and the failure happened 2 years 4 months after we moved in (meaning the 2 year warranty period was over). Whirlpool pointed us back to Barratt Homes (as the washing machine was provided with the house when we bought it in Dec 2008). However, not totally unexpected, Barratts Homes couldnt care less, they just said the warranty period was over so too bad!
I mentioned to them the sales of goods act and that we believe we are covered for such a major machanical fault that has rendered the machine unusable but they couldnt care less! When I spoke to the customer service person I asked her who she had sought advice from on Barratt homes legal responsibilities, she said it was her own opinion that we werent covered! Her letter in reply to our complaint also specifically did NOT make mention of the Sales of Goods Act either!
I have already told them that as the machine came with a four bed family home that it wouldnt be unreasonable to expect the washing machine to be fit for purpose (ie. able to take the pressures of washing for a modern nuclear family of 2.4 people (the .4 is the cat:). Ive also told them that it wouldnt not be unreasonable to expect the washing machine to last longer than 2.4 years before such a major catastrophic fault had occured. OK, I could accept this happening towards the end of year 4 or happening in year five…but not 2 years and 4 months after taking ownership of the machine!
So, any idea what our next step would be? If they continue to ignore our pleadings do I just get the thing fixed and then take them to the small claims court to recover our costs? Im off the mind to ask the judge to refund us the £250k we paid for the house…after all, the washing machine came with a free house! :)
Regards
Mr Bob Dobalina
Got a reply from barratts just before 6pm.
Some guy called Chris Carty advised the following after I asked fir thus issue to be escalated;
“I have received a copy of your e-mail of today’s date regarding the washing machine and dishwasher at your home. I confirm I have consulted our Head of Legal Services. He advises that whilst it is correct that the time limit for bringing a claim under the Sale of Goods Act is 6 years from purchase this does not mean that all goods must last six years. We are satisfied that the goods supplied were of sufficient durability for their intended use and that accordingly you have no basis for a claim against us in this instance.
I regret that I cannot be of any further assistance in this matter.
C. CARTY”
So, any advice on how one forces the issue with barratts and get them to take responsibility for the dead washing machine?
Regards
Bob
Mr Dobalina: Thanks for sharing your experience. You have found the same attitude that most people find, which is basically intransigence. Many companies appear to totally disagree with this aspect of the sale of goods act and don’t see why they should be liable. I do have some sympathy with them on that. It must be a real pain to be expected to be liable for something you sold (and possibly made just a small profit on) over 2 years or more ago when it not remotely your fault that it’s now scrap because you didn’t make it. But the government has made them responsible so they have to deal with it.
In theory this obligation should improve the quality of products as retailers realise it’s more trouble than it’s worth to sell products that don’t last a fair time. The government presumably think that retailers should take responsibility for the quality of the products they sell us to make profit. At the end of the day if a product is rubbish it’s totally the fault of the manufacturer but we didn’t buy it from the manufacturer we bought it from a retailer who profited from selling it to us and we bought it from them in good faith expecting it to do what it’s supposed to and last a reasonable amount of time. They seem to forget it’s also designed to protect every one of them and their families too when they end up with an expensive product that is scrap after only a few years.
They are right in that products are not expected to never break down within the 6 years (5 in Scotland) or even necessarily last 6 years, it depends on what product it is, how much it cost and how it has been used. This is also pointed out in my article. The sale of goods act implicitly says it must be fit for its purpose and must last a reasonable time when taking all the cost/usage into consideration. The stumbling block is that the word “reasonable” is totally subjective.
Basically I don’t think 2 years and 4 months is anywhere near a reasonable time for a major white goods appliance to last before it needs throwing on the rubbish tip helping to destroy our environment and having to be replaced. If the replacement lasted a similarly short time then accepting that as OK means people are potentially expected to scrap a large appliance and buy a new one every two or three years for the rest of their lives, which is totally unnaceptable on any level.
Clearly you also agree it hasn’t lasted a reasonable time, but the problem is that many companies (the majority I fear) simply refuse to take the hit for it and defiantly reject the customer’s consumer rights. If companies sell rubbish products and have to recompense customers when they don’t last a reasonable time they would have to start selling better quality products, but they currently get away with ignoring the sale of goods act so much that it hardly affects them.
Very few people will stick to their guns and refuse to accept that they have no claim. This, coupled with the fact they are in no way guaranteed to win a claim probably puts off 99% of people with a valid claim. Consumer rights are troublesome to enforce if the company refuses to do anything because you have no option but to take them to the small claims court. Most people can’t be bothered so companies know they are safe enough just digging their heels in.
Ultimately no one can tell you with certainty that a small claims court judge would agree with you that 2 years 4 months is an unreasonably short time so there’s no guarantee you would win. However, the entire point of the small claims court is to assist the public in fighting big intransigent companies and redress the balance a little. The entire procedure should be fairly straight forward, relatively cheap, with little financial risk and can even be done online.
If you did win the case though they can take off the amount of time you have had use of the washing machine so if the average life of a washing machine is (tragically) only about 7 years these days then if you’ve had 2 years 4 months use you’ve had roughly just over 30% of the life of one so in theory should be entitled to a refund of around 70%.
Ultimately only the stubborn and highly principled are likely to pursue this sort of thing although simply informing them you have taken steps to make a small claim in the courts and maybe sending them the link (below) could persuade them to offer something…
My opinion is not official. I’m not qualified in consumer issues. I have merely made it my business to study consumer issues and law as part of my job and as part of my free advice on this blog and Washerhelp.co.uk. For official help please try -
my dishwasher has being playing up and had a quote to fix it £140 but its guarantee has run out 4 month sago so i throw out my receipt have i got any chance of getting anything back from the retailer
You don’t need a receipt, only some proof of purchase such as a credit or bank card statement, though not having a receipt further complicates an already difficult matter. If the guarantee ran out 4 months ago the retailer and manufacturer are unlikely to help. They will both tell you that it is now out of guarantee and all repairs are chargeable.
If you believe the appliance has not lasted a reasonable time you can pursue the retailer using the Sale of Good Act but they will fight it. Use the links in my last comment to try and get assistance.
I have a Hotpoint Ultima WMD960P washing machine purchased in late December 2009. The rubber seal is decidedly manky – black gloop build up in the folds of the rubber. Rang and reported the problem – but told it is out of its 1 year warranty. I pointed out that the machine was less than 2 years old, and I had nevery had such a problem with previous Hotpoint washers. Operator said manufacturer was aware of the problem. She told this is a new fault, caused by detergents being made stronger, etc, and to the cold fill of machines. She said I could buy a crystal cleaner and use monthly, at a cost of £24.99 for a 2 year supply. The cost of replacing the dodgy rubber seal is £104.99 for an engineer to come out and replace it. In other words, the manufacturer knows there is a problem but has apparently not been able to resolve it. I keep my machine clean, flushing it out regularly. Now being told it must be done on a HOT 90 degree cycle. So much for economy! I ought this machine through the Benefits Scheme of my former employer (Hotpoint being part of the group). The operator on the phone told me it is a maintenance fault, not a manufacturers fault! Any idea where I stand on this one?
Hi guys,
Here is an update on my claim against Barratt Homes.
Basically they told us to f8ck off so we have sinced filed a claim with the small claims court for the cost of the replacement washing machine we purchased as well as the costs of the multiple trips to the closest laundrette we had to us.
Additionally, should we be successfully Ill also try my luck and ask the Judge if I can claim for the lost day of work for myself and my wife! :)
Secondly, I have included my dish washer in the claim BUT will use that as a bargaining chip. Should Barratts claim the damage was from fair wear and tear then I will agree with them and ask for the dish washer to be removed, as I agree that buttons or knobs or washers falling off would be expected as fair wear and tear as that wear and tear hasnt rendered the entire unit unusable. However the same cannot be said for the washing machine as the damage HAS rendered the entire unit unusable!
They may argue the item was used outside of its design specifications, but the counter argument would be that the unit was provided with a four bedroom family home on the expectation that a family would be using it. If the washing machine was not to be used by a family then I guess that makes the washing machine unfit for use! :)
Anyway, I should hear back from the court with in the next week or so as to whether Barratts intend to defend the case!
I also checked with the NHB people and they had a report out from 2007 that stated the average life expectancy for a washing machine was something like 14 years! Just need to track this report down so I can take it with me to the small claims hearing!
Boom!
Regards
Mailman
Thanks for the update Mr Dobalina: Your case sounds like a perfect example of one which should be fought and I wish you luck. Win or lose we need to know as your experience can help others.
Unfortunately the average life of a washing machine is now only around 7 years because they are being made less and less repairable by both design and prohibitive spares costs. However, even by that pathetic standard you’ve been short-changed.
Elaine Alexander : It isn’t a design fault in most washing machines. It’s more of an undesirable problem caused by modern detergents lacking some previously used chemicals that were banned for environmental reasons combined with the constant use of low temperature washes as well as liquid detergent, which contains no bleaching agents
Many people (most probably the majority) don’t have a problem with it (myself included) so it’s caused by something unique to the individual sufferers. It’s all explained in this article – Washing machine smells – causes of grease, slime and black mould inside washing machines
That’s really useful and I have my machine running a hot wash as I type……….thanks for that information !! I have the touch of black “stuff” on the rubber and as the article says I’m one of those guilty of always running it at 40 degrees as a rule. It’s managed to get on clothes before and it’s oily and can ruin stuff so one hot wash a month is well worth doing.
Barratts have failed their defence, and its the same as before…2 years 3 months, according to them, is more than acceptable as being the expected life of the washing machine.
Ive since filled out the paper work and sent back so now all that remains is for the court hearing to be set.
Regards
Mailman
Hello Mr Dobaline: Your case is dragging on for ages and shows why most people give up. Thanks for your continued update and please continue to update us. Even if it ultimately fails your experience will still be very useful to others.
Hi I wonder if you could help with my problem of trying to get a refund from Hoovercandy.
I purchased a washer dryer in Mar 2010, shortly after it became very noisy and several faults occurred. 13 months later Hoovercandy finally sent me a replacement, (I originally purchased thorugh NEXT). The replacement after 4 and a half months has started to go wrong again. I waitied 6 days for a repair man, who apparantley fixed the door fault. The following day it went from a washing settng to drying setting (without me knowing) ruining a load of washing, as the heat setting was extermely high and it clearly had items of clothing in that I would not normally dry in the dryer. I have contacted Hoovercandy and Next electric by phone and letter stating the Sale of Goods and Services Act and requesting a refund. Hoover Candy have written back with a standard letter refusing my request and offering a repair only.
Is there any advice you can give to me, I feel as it is only 5 months old I have the right to request a refund?? I do not want a repair or further replacement as I have lost faith in the product.
Thanks
Carly
I purchased a Beko Fridge/Freezer in 2008. From Comet stores in Crewe Cheshire. 3 weeks ago it started to defrost (freezer) and the fridge was over 10c. The Motor just refused to switch off, and the electric meter began to sizzle with the cost of continuous working.
After phoning Comets new help line number. I was told the earliest a man could come out to me was 3 weeks. and they diagnosed on the phone a timer switch. We emptied the whole thing out, and all the food bought 2 days before was binned.
Today the engineer came, His lap top was broken so he couldn’t look up the part we needed. And he diagnosed the compressor has broken; He left telling me he would phone later.
He has just phoned to say he has contacted head office, and they will now phone me in the next few days to tell me when they can come and look at the freezer again.
We took out an extended warranty with the purchase, but to me it does not seem to be worth the paper it was printed on. Does anyone think I am entitled to an exchange on this appliance. Or do I just sit and wait and wait. or trust to Comet’s engineers when they do get around to coming out again.
Sue: Extended warranties are generally accepted in the consumer advice world to be not worth taking out for most people. One of the problems with extended warranties is that you are a captive customer, you can’t often go elsewhere, so service is often slower. Under the Sale of Goods Act they have to fix your appliance within a reasonable time. No one could seriously argue that waiting 3 weeks before even looking at a fridge, and even then not fixing it, is reasonable. Unfortunately I can pretty much bet you won’t get anywhere asking for a refund. Have a look to see if there are any promises on the extended warranty about how quick they promise to fix things. You’ll probably have to start being a nuisance to get them moving.
Carly: Under the Sale of Goods Act if a product breaks down under 6 months it is deemed to have been faulty when sold. It was sold with an inherent fault. Therefore you should be entitled to a refund or compensation. It’s no surprised Hoover / Candy have rejected your refund request as it’s only the retailer you bought it from that is responsible. I would try pressing for a replacement saying it was sold with an inherent fault and your previous experience with the same brand has made you lose confidence in them. Unfortunately many of the national retailers will not comply, and even scoff at such an outrageous request. You need to take consumer advice from Citizens Advice or similar.
Thanks for the advice. I went directly to the CEO of the retailer and within 2 hours I received a full refund. They are collecting the faulty machine this week.
I am a very happy customer finally.
Carly
Update Number xxxxx
I got the allocation questioneer a while ago, duly completed and sent it back and asked for the hearing to be moved to my local court, which is only a mile down the road.
On Saturday just gone we got a letter from the Cambridge Court (which isnt our local court) advising that the hearing had been set down for the 7th of November and that a FURTHER fee of £55 had to be paid by the 9th of November! Then on Monday we got another letter saying the court date is now the 7th of December. I rung them up to ask why this cant be heard at my local court and they said I could fill the form in, pay £45 and then the judge would consider moving it. I then rung back a second time to question this only to be told my town doesnt have a district court anymore and the judge probably moved it to the closest one to us! So lucky I didnt waste £45 for nothing!
I was surprised that there was a further fee payable though, after having already paid the fee when we lodged the claim in the first place!
So…no wonder people give up. Nothing is simple, straight forward or easy in this country!
BTW Mr Washerhelp, do you have any links to reports etc that say whiteware goods should last up to 7 years before total failure and copies of reports that say the extended warranties arent worth the paper they are written on? It would be good to see these and perhaps send copies to Barratts to put the sh1ts up them!
Regards
Bob
BTW, the letter from the court only gave us 8 days to pay the further 55!
Mr Dobalina: Washing machines apparently only last on average 7 years these days but that’s not the same as saying they should last 7 years – or even that 7 years is acceptable. How long they should last depends on how much it cost and how it’s been used so there’s no strict formula. The only official thing we have is the Sales of Goods Act stating they should last a reasonable time, which as we all know is pretty subjective.
Which? and other consumer groups usually say extended warranties aren’t worth bothering with.
Hi – firstly what a great resource this is, hopefully manufacturers will start producing goods that last longer than 366 days. :-)
I have an interesting one that I haven’t seen covered here. I had a brand new Hotpoint dishwasher installed in Nov 2009. 18 months later it broke, failed pump – common fault by the sounds of it. Out of warranty, and somewhat in desperation, I foolishly paid £106 for Hotpoint to fix it. They replaced the pump – the engineer even said it was a common issue since the parts aren’t great quality.
6 months later (so the dishwasher is now 2 years old) and the same part would appear to have failed again. I called Hotpoint (Indesit) and they said the part only came with a 3 month warranty so I’d have to pay another £100+ for them to come out and repair it again. This, in my view, is shocking.
Now, if I go back to the retailer and quote the SOGA are they not within their rights to say “Well, you paid Hotpoint to repair it – you’ll have to take it up with them.” ?
I have to say I do feel sorry for the retailer in these situations, however hopefully it will encourage them to stock brands that don’t break within 18 months. I asked Hotpoint if they thought it was acceptable for a brand new dishwasher to last 18 months before breaking and they said “Yes”. Oh dear.
Thoughts appreciated!
Andy
Hi,
My issue isn’t with a white goods item, but a computer component, namely the graphics card, (GPU). This was bought for me approximately 2.5 years ago, by my then girlfriend, (we haven’t been together for almost 2 years now).
I don’t know where it was purchased from, but at it cost around the £350 mark when she bought it. In the time I’ve owned this GPU, I haven’t overclocked it and have, (for the most part), used an advanced, aftermarket cooler on it, (namely the Arctic Cooling Accelero). In laymans terms, it hasn’t been under serious stress from heat at any point in its life. I am a casual gamer, spending probably around 2-3 hours maximum a day on my pc.
For anyone that knows, this was THE fastest graphics card of its day, not some bargain basement rubbish, but high end, top quality stuff, and the price justified that.
My question is this – as I don’t know who the retailer was, is it possible I can have the actual manufacturer repair or replace with a GPU from their current line up, (of equal quality/performance)? I don’t have the reciept, but I still have the box and all the sundries that were included, except the original heatsink and fan, (I threw those away as soon as the after market item was fitted).
I have Googled for issues with these cards, and I wouldn’t say that it’s “common” for these cards to suddenly die like this, BUT, the manufacturer, (XFX), do have a “lifetime warranty” in the USA and Canada, (under strict conditions so I understand), but not here in the UK. Is there any way I can enforce that here? ;-)
Also, is it fair for them to say that any such warranties are applicable ONLY while the graphics card is in it’s “lifetime”, ie, whilst in production, considering the fact that graphics cards are probably THE most frequently updated/shortest “lifetime” of any PC component?
I hope you could help me resolve this issue with the result I’m looking for – repair/replace. I think the price of this card justifies some recompense, especially as it’s not being driven like a dog all its life and that it was touted as the “Rolls Royce” so to speak when it was brand new. Just as a last note, the current highend model retails for around the £460 mark. I don’t see why I should pay that kind of money to get to where I was a couple of days ago, and quite happy as well :(
Many thanks, Steve.
I bought a beko fridge freezer which is now just few weeks outwith the supposedly 1 year warranty that you get with the product and when called at first said there was nothing they can do , until i gave them the consumer rights and sales of good acts,
they ended up saying they will send out a repairman to fix it out of good will gesture, just awaiting the phone call for a date , they said within 48 hours ,
As i also told them that the fridge i had before buying this was a beko and it had the same problem with it and was not happy that after only just over year it has happened to this freezer as well the problem is the freezer isn’t freezing properly , what could this be that is wrong with it.
my last beko fridge freezer was about 4 years old and at the time didn’t know about all this info and put it down to ah well i got it on good price and lasted 4year not bad was about 200 got on sale ,
but at right price may of expected longer out of it
Me again , i know this is not a white goods but just after reading about the person with the acer laptop
i have a Sony vaio and paid good 600 for it , its not hat you would say a cheap brand , and is just over the 2 year warranty that Sony supposedly gives ,
i actually had it repaired just couple of months after having it was making loud noise like fan over working now this was done free as was in with there warranty
but recently last couple months my monitor has been distorted at bottom and covers whole task bar i cannot see anything at bottom of my screen.
now company i bought it from saying nothing they can do because out warranty fobbed me with Sony which you can only talk to some one on Sony site by entering the model number on laptop when i enter it on the phone it just says automated sorry we cant help bye ,
cost the repair is needing a new screen which will cost 120 how do i go about getting through to Sony or getting my money , as i don’t think this is fair time for needing fixed after just over 2 yrs for the cost and fact it already been repaired after few months buying
thanks if you could help any one
Hello Mr Washerhelp,
Can you tell me where you got the statistic from that says washing machines on average last 7 years?
Also, I had a look at the extended warranty from Whirlpool. First up it costs over £100 for the two year warranty and then it excludes the delivery and installation costs!
Anyway Im just getting all my ducks in order before our hearing next Wednesday morning.
Regards
Mailman
I’ve heard the stats being quoted several times at trade meetings and presentations. I’ve not seen an official report stating it but presumably the figure came from some report somewhere. It was used in the context of how they aren’t lasting very long these days.
OK, its show time on Wednesday. Ill let you all know how things go as soon as possible.
Just out of interest, I was speaking with our neighbours and their washing machine (same as ours) also died earlier in the year, along with their oven AND friends of theirs in another Barratts home on our street ALSO had their washing machine (different make) die on them!
So just in our street without doing any work what so ever there are three houses in our street that had Barratts provided whitegoods all have had issues. Im picking that should a journalist, looking for a story, start door knocking that he is going to find a lot more issues to write about!
Naturally I shall be raising this point tomorrow! :)
Regards
Bob
Hi all,
Im back from my hearing, to cut a long story short, I won!
Was awarded the full amount of my claim (which covered a new washing machine, the cost of all the laundry we had to do at the next towns laundromat and mileage, as well as my filing fee’s and travelling expenses). I did ask if I could claim for the lost days work but got shot down…oh well, if you dont ask you will never know! :)
Barratts didnt even turn up! The judge did say though that Barratts may ask for the verdict to be set aside if they have good reason NOT to have turned up but otherwise Ill get a copy of the verdict in the next couple of days. So we shall see…hopefully Ill get a cheque from them within the next what ever days they have!
BTW, Ill post a much more detailed account when I get the verdict.
Ill let the kids know that christmas is back on when they get home tonight :)
Regards
Bob
Many thanks for the update Mr Dobalina. That sounds like very good news, and confirms what I’ve always said, that drum bearing failure, which cannot be repaired without having to replace major parts rendering a two and a half year old washing machine beyond economical repair is totally unacceptable.
Your supplier trying to fob you off claiming that the sale of goods act does not require products to last 6 years was typical muddying of waters. Of course it doesn’t require products to last “6 years”, it requires that they last a reasonable time, and two and a half years is not a reasonable time unless you have been taking washing in for the entire street.
BIG congratulations !! I know it’s been a long time coming as I’ve been following the story but it’s always tremendous to hear of somebody beating the ‘big boys’ and getting what’s due to them.
Well done and cheers for the update. Happy Christmas !!
Washerhelp,
Ive only just noticed your September update about suppliers paying up now or later and there being no difference.
In my case I reckon Barratts has simply tripled or may have even quadrupled their costs by arguing this one for so long…and this may be the same for retailers who fight a case all the way to the courts.
If Barratts had said right back at the start that they would cover the cost of the part and us the cost of the installation then we probably would have been agreeable to that. That would have probably set them back £150, maybe £200 at the very most.
Instead, what they have done is not only paid for the entire cost of the replacement washing machine, but they have picked up all of my costs (over double the cost of the washing machine) AND incurred countless hours of lost productivity from at least 6 staff (from customer services front desk staff right up to the Head of Legal Services). So in the end they have probably forked out over £1000 in fighting this!
Not only that BUT our neighbours are now going to contact Barratts to sort their washing machine out (exact same make and model as hours) as well as another resident in our street and once I get our money Ill make contact with the local news paper to see if they are interested in a local interest story.
Also, I found this site while surfing around for info…I found it very informative for the sales of goods act.
http://www.retra.co.uk/consumerInfo/consumer_info000.asp
Finally, maybe you and I could incorporate the Provision of Goods and Services act in to this page as we now there is some experience of bringing action under this act against someone who has provided the goods to an end user?
Regards
Bob
Mr Dobalina: .. but think of all the money they save by adopting the attitude. I bet for every one like you there are 100, or anything up to 1000 people who just give up. They must be “saving” many thousands of pounds, with national retailers possibly saving hundreds of thousands of pounds with their stubborn attitude. However, they clearly aren’t taking into account the clearly much larger sum possibly running into millions that they are losing when people, and their friends and family never buy from them again.
Hi
I have a general question. If I buy a product with a 3 year manufacturers warranty and the product just stops working after 2 years, should I be looking to the retailer or the manufacturer to handle the repair/replacement of this product?
I believe it should be the retailers responsibility to deal with me, but my friends say I should go directly to the manufacturer. The main issue with this is the manufacturers require the item to be sent to Holland whereas the retailer is local.
Any advise would be appreciated.
Pete: Normally you would should go to the manufacturer or their agent first using the guarantee as you need to know exactly what is wrong before you can decide if you have a justified complaint or not. It could be something relatively minor, which is not necessarily a breach of the Sale of goods Act.
Products do not have to be totally free from breakdowns especially after a few years, they just have to be of merchantable quality, be free from inherent faults and last a reasonable time. If you then feel you have a complaint then legally it is the retailer who is responsible but manufacturers can sometimes take it upon themselves to keep a customer satisfied.
Your particular case is unusual if you have to send it off to another country. I’ve never heard of that, which seems a bit unreasonable.
1. Re: Mr B’s success in Small Claims Court when Barratts refused to replace/repair a defective appliance,
I read an article not all that long ago (regret no longer can recall exactly where)
It was by a successful Claimant who then found that the amount awarded to him did not get paid, and there was nothing – short of going to court again and/or instructing Bailiffs (??) he could do about it.
That is why I tentatively suggested that Mr B might ask the Small Claims Court about procedures should he have a similar bad experience.
Of course, in an ideal world, Barratts’ cheque would by now have arrived, been paid in, and met.
But unfortunately this ain’t no ideal world!.
2. Sending defective appliances back to manufacturers: at whose expense, there and back? Could this be another defensive tactic designed solely to deter the Purchaser? (My replacement half-price fridge is a Beko, this being a Turkish manufacturer: presumably it costs infinitely more than the damn thing is worth to even attempt such a thing!
3. A couple of months ago several house fires were reported, all of them caused by defective Beko fridge/freezers (manufactured about ten years ago). What are the purchasers’rights in such a case? -
Food of a long debate here. Would anyone like a copy of the press cuttings?
4. This is posted at Andy’s suggestion
Thanks Lilly: I’ve also heard of lots of cases where people have not paid after losing a small claims court although it’s usually individuals or very small rogue companies rather than household name retailers.
Hi all…Happy New Years and all that! :)
Final update on my case. The money for the washing machine turned up the week before Christmas with a lovely “With Compliments” slip :)
So in the new year Ill make contact with the local paper and see if they are interested in a “human interest” story as well as get a hold of Which magazine and see if they are interested.
I still believe that Barratts has missed a trick here and only ended up quadrupling their costs and had they just entered in to this in the spirit of looking after a valued customer not only would they have saved them selves several hundred pounds in a payout BUT also saved themselves several or tens of thousands pounds in staff time wasted in this…and then there is the cost of lost reputation. Sure, people dont have a lot of good things to say for Barrats and this case has only reinforced that point.
Either way, this story will get out in to the wild!
Regards
Mailman
Hello, I purchased a double memory foam mattress with Maxicool cover, on 24th January 2011 online from TJHughes,it arrived 28th January, we unwrapped it 29th,& discovered a hole in the cover.It was a snag that had been pulled & was incorporated in the zip.I immediately photographed the hole & telephoned & e-mailed the manufacturer(Sleepdesign who give a guarantee, what a joke) & supplier (TJHughes), was told to continue to use & return faulty cover,which we did & TJHughes reimbursed the postage.The manufacturers sent a kingsize replacement (for a laugh presumably) back, which we returned, then TGHughes went into administation. Sleepdesign & TJHughes refused to speak or communicate with us any further.Consquently we still have no cover for the mattress & are still trying to get a partial refund from the credit card company.
Hi, I purchased a Samsung LCD freeview TV in July 2006 and paid £600, which to me was and still is a lot of money. November 2011 to freeview on the TV stopped working. I bought the Tv from Freemans catalogue. I have been having a running battle with them. I just want someone to confirm what is a reasonable lenght of time for a TV to last. To me £600 for 5 years of viewing is NOT reasonable or value for money. Freemans want to offer me a partial refund of £90. Can someone just tell me what is reasonable.
Thanks
Mr ALLEYNE: The problem is that what is reasonable is subjective. There are no acknowledged acceptable lengths of time for any product. When something only lasts 2 or 3 years it’s a little more clear cut but after that it gets less clear.
However, the Sale of Goods Act specifically qualifies the phrase that a product should last a reasonable time by saying “reasonable”, is that (which) a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory.
My experience is with white goods so I don’t know how long TV’s are generally expected to last. It could be that as a product that advances technologically at considerably greater rates than white goods a TV at 5 years is considered relatively old. Alternatively it could be they normally would be expected to last 10 years or more. As you’ve had it 5 years though you need to also bear in mind that the 5 years would be knocked off any potential compensation so for example if it was accepted they should last at least 10 years you have had half of that so would get 50% of the cost of a new one.
I moved into a new Barrats house in April 2008 and it was fitted with whirlpool appliances, I am already on my second washer/dryer and have had the repair man out twice to this one.
However this complaint isnt about the washer but about the oven – the oven door just spontaneously shattered like a car windscreen and we were lucky that my children weren’t injured. I have been on various forums and have read about other people this has happened to. I have contacted Whirlpool and they just sent me a general letter stating that there is no manufacturing or design fault and that it was dangerous to continue to use it and we should contact them to organise an engineer at a cost of £80 and the replacement glass at £140. I have never before had brand new white goods always had second hand from relatives so my experience of Whirlpoll isnt good.
I work in a hair salon and overheard a client complaining of the same thing – oven door shattering. I asked him if it was a Whirlpool oven and was he in a Barratt house and he said he was – he said he complained to Whirlpool who he said practically laughed at him down the phone. I contacted the Barratts show home on my estate and they said they had no complaints about the appliances fitted in the
houses. I will be taking this further with trading standards as it is not just about the door shattering but the potential injury this fault can cause. The amount of postings I have seen on the web says to me that their is definitley something faulty about the oven doors and Whirlpool/Barratt are just hoping to fob people off.
caroline jan 2012
Very interesting blog, and particularly this thread! I have a Zanussi washing machine which became extremely noisy at 2 years 7 months old – 7 months outside the warranty. I called our usual trusty engineer who diagnosed a failed drum & recommended buying a new machine.
We purchased the washer from John Lewis (for £420) so I contacted them. As has been mentioned here JL would not even consider any action without an engineer’s report but our engineer would not do this. So after paying £60, and waiting almost 2 weeks for the engineer recommended by JL to visit, his diagnosis was the same. The repair would cost £305. As a result JL have offered £160 cash or £250 towards a replacement (if purchased from them). They argue that the report does not explicitly say that the washer is “beyond economic repair” and that their offer exceeds SOGA’s requirements.
I realise that JL’s response is better than many retailers offer, and my discussions with them
have been amicable so far, but taking into account the money I’ve paid out on inspections (£70 in total) and the difference between what they’ve offered & the cost of a new machine this would leave us nearly £300 out of pocket. I also realise that as we’d had just over 2 and a half years from the machine any settlement could be reduced to take that into account.
So – after all that – I guess my question is, would you accept their offer or not? I have asked for £300 but am I being unreasonable? I have a number of major hassles (this is minor in comparison) going on at the mo so I’m concerned that these are clouding my judgement somewhat!
Thanks in advance
Dear Sir
I Bought back in 2009 an LG 50pg3000 however as of the beginning of December 2011 the television developed a serious fault that requires 2 internal boards being replaced, after being mucked about by D&G & LG, i contacted Richer Sounds who i bought it off.
After not having a TV for nearly 2 months with which they keep informing me it is being looked into with their head of Service department & someone from customer services, weeks have gone by with no communication & no sign of my TV being repaired I was wondering where do i stand as in theory this unit shouldnt have developed a fault this serious so soon(£500 was one quote), i should add however that this item was sold to me out of the window as there were no others available at the time (Which would have added to the wear & tear) & i wasnt offered any kind of discount at the time of purchase
Any help will be much appreciated
Helen: Yes, no one would be able to swap a machine over or give compensation based only on a customer saying the old one was faulty so it’s fair enough they needed something official. It’s a shame the original engineer was unable to give a written invoice stating his quote to repair the washer.
I think £250 towards a replacement if buying from them equates to half the cost of a new one (even looking at a £500 replacement cost), which I personally feel sounds reasonable. I would think most of the big national retailers wouldn’t go anywhere near that far, and would more than likely just be telling you there’s nothing they can do now as it’s out of guarantee – and treating you as if you were stupid for not taking out one of their extended warranties.
I can see your point of view counting in the £60 cost of getting an engineer report but technically that’s the fault of the original engineer who appears to have refused to give you a proper invoice with an estimate of the cost of repair on it. Maybe if he didn’t charge you it’s not so bad, but I see no logical reason why he couldn’t have obliged even if he exacted a small charge for doing so.
I think £305 to repair a 2 and a half year old washing machine that can be replaced for hardly any more is obviously beyond economic repair. The most expensive Zanussi washing machine on John Lewis’s web site is only £389 and the rest are from only £249.
If you accept that the most expensive Zanussi replacement, with 2 years guarantee and free delivery is only £389 then £250 towards it sounds very reasonable to me especially bearing in mind you haven’t needed to get involved in stressful arguments and threatening to take them to the small claims court.
Phil Gallagher: You don’t state exactly when in 2009 you bought the TV but even assuming it was in January it hasn’t even lasted 2 years? If it’s going to cost £500 to repair it’s obviously beyond economical repair and clearly hasn’t lasted a reasonable time.
If it was on display in the window you were unwise to accept it without a big discount, but you did accept it knowing it may have already used up an unknown quantity of its life. You might raise this point in your case as it appears you were additionally hard done to by not even receiving a totally brand new product – though as I say you were aware of it and accepted it at the time.
I don’t know Richer Sounds well enough to be sure of their reputation regarding these issues but I know they pride themselves on good customer service and I’ve bought things from them myself. I think they may work off relatively small margins, and any one working on small margins tends to be less generous when it comes to problems like this.
However, although there is no guarantee you would win, I believe a small claims court judge would agree that less than 2 years life from a new TV is not a reasonable lifespan under the Sale of Goods Act and would find in your favour. I would contact the shop and advise them politely that if you don’t get this resolved within the next few days (or week) you are going to lodge a claim in the small claims court.
Thanks very much for your reply, it’s really helpful to get an expert’s impartial opinion. I think on balance I’ll probably accept their offer & hope the replacement machine is more reliable!
Just an update to this: I have now been credited with £250 towards the cost of a new machine. I’ve been VERY impressed with John Lewis & wouldn’t hesitate to buy from them again. When I read about the amount of hassle people have had with other retailers I know I’m very lucky!
Thanks for the update Helen. That’s why I recommend them so much and buy most of my things from them. At the end of the day I want good service and you are more likely to get it from John Lewis.
Really nice to hear a good result for a change, Helen.
Hi again I had forgot about this site and fact I put a message up regarding my beko fridge and then my lap top ,
Just came on a I had I email saying had comment and I noticed that you did not reply to either of mine but to all the rest
Well I did manage to get my fridge fixed from beko them selfs for nothing and my laptop through sony both out with the 2yr supposid gaurantee , pays to contct them and even speak to diff people if on es don’