Over the last 11 years I’ve been writing about the poor quality of many modern washing machines. As a long-time repairman I’d witnessed the gradual slip between people keeping them running as long as possible to all too often throwing them away at the first breakdown – unless it could be fixed for a pittance. Since then it’s become a serious environmental issue.
Price is King at the expense of quality
This isn’t an advert for Miele, I mention them because apart from the odd machines such as the ISE10 made by Asko it’s hard to find a washing machine that is still so well built. However, buying a high quality washing machine such as a Miele is regretfully no longer a guarantee it will definitely last longer than a normal one even though most will. These days it seems some Miele repairs can be uneconomical due to very high spares prices and lack of competition in repairs. However, most should still have a much better chance of lasting longer than an average appliance, and are without doubt a much better machine all round in every other sense.
The ISE10 is semi-professional quality, guaranteed for 10 years parts and labour but it costs around £899. Miele have models just as “expensive” and more though entry models are around £600. The most important thing about the ISE10 is the commitment by ISE not to profit from spare parts other than to cover costs, and to make all technical information freely available to all repairers out there. This should ensure that despite not being quite as good quality as a Miele, spares and repairs should be seriously cheaper meaning an ISE10 should potentially outlast anything else on the market at the moment. A point I make on the Miele article above is that no matter how well built a product is, it can only really last if either it just never breaks down – or future repairs to it are economically viable compared to replacement costs.
I use the word “expensive” reluctantly, and in quotes, because they are only relatively expensive. £800 is what a washing machine of that quality should cost these days – if not more. They only appear expensive because other manufacturers constantly undercut the quality so much they can sell much cheaper and make them look expensive.
To quote from the first article linked to below -
.. For example, Hoover used to sell a 1200 spin 4.5Kg washing machine at over £400 in the 1990s, yet you can now (2008) buy a Hoover 1600 spin 6Kg washing machine for £211. That’s inflation in reverse, and it’s achieved in large part by reducing quality, repairability and aftersales service.
In 1973, a basic Hoover washing machine was £94.88, in today’s prices that’s £912.74 (April 2011) – Source: Inflation calculator. Today – well over 30 years later, a similarly basic washing machine – but with faster spins and a bigger drum can be bought for £179 (Beko or Indesit – source Kelkoo price comparison site). That’s equivalent to just £18.43 in 1973. So in 30 years the price of a basic washing machine has dropped (in real terms) by nearly 80% which is absolutely staggering.
A 80% reduction in the cost of a washing machine 30 years later is impossible without reducing the quality and longevity of the product. If you want to produce a washing machine made as well as the Hoover was in 1973 it would cost at least £500+ and with extra features and technical advances it can easily be £700+.
Bear in mind also that Hoover weren’t even a quality manufacturer, there were plenty of better built appliances available at the time. They simply produced decently made washing machines that were relatively cheap to repair because spares were reasonably priced and technical support freely available to every independent repairer. This optimum recipe meant Hoover washing machines commonly lasted at least 10 – 12 years and very often 15 – 20 years. I’ve repaired 30 year old Hoover washing machines from the 70s). This is something ISE are trying to reintroduce (What is the ISE washing machine, and why is it different to other washing machines? )
Related articles:
- EU 2 year guarantee. Sales of Goods Act gives us 6 years to claim for faulty appliances (Article on this Blog)
- Are new washing machines made as well as they used to be? (Article on Washerhelp.co.uk)
- Do washing machines have built-in obsolescence? (Article on Washerhelp.co.uk)
- If I buy a more expensive washing machine, do I get a better washing machine? (Article on Washerhelp.co.uk)
- Pros and cons: Quality washing machine verses cheap washing machine (Article on Washerhelp.co.uk)
What’s your take on this?
How long do your washing machines last? Do you remember the days when you bought a washing machine and had it repaired 6, 7 or 8 times over a 15 to 20 year period or were lucky and had one last as long with hardly a screwdriver touching it? Assuming you could afford it, why exactly would you refuse to pay £700 or £800 for a proper washing machine? And are you someone who won’t afford it rather than can’t?
Chee: What did the engineers report say exactly, and did he leave the appliance fixed?
No he didn’t leave the machine fixed – I had told him I wanted a refund. The report said:
“Grinding/catching during spinning – cust removed transit bolts. Found damage to front panel near base plate above plynth. Pump cavitating and vibrating. Transit blanks/hose clamps all broken. No packaging present on delivery”
This was quite tame, as he told me that the machine was pretty bad condition, and asked me if I saw the packaging. I said no, the machine came out of the van unwrapped – I assumed they had taken it off in the van!
He tutted at this, but did not elaborate………
Unless he suspected the faults were caused by the customer an engineer would usually arrange for it to be exchanged after getting an uplift number from his boss. They would normally telephone from the customers house and arrange it or leave an uplift number with the customer and advise them to ring the shop or office.
He can’t just leave it unfixed and not tell the customer how to arrange a replacement. However, if he advised it could be fixed and the customer refused, he would presumably leave it to the customer to fight out with the office.
“Why don’t most modern washing machines last very long?” Here’s a possible way to avoid this bad situation:
I would suggest buying an old and reconditioned washing machine that was made at a time when all washing machines were easily repairable or buy an “ISE” brand, which is said to be very reliable and affordable to repair. If you can find lots of spare parts for an older washing machine online, it sounds like a much better option than paying around £400 for a new washing machine which only lasts about 5 years then it can’t be repaired (or the price of the repair is almost the same as buying a new washing machine)!!
Another advantage of old washing machines is they rinse MUCH better than today’s washing machines! I’m not happy with the rinsing of my current Zanussi-Electrolux washing machine because it uses so little water, so I have the frustration of adding jugfuls of hot water to the rinses and that is not much fun, but I have no choice as my skin is sensitive to detergents.
When it breaks, I am considering replacing it with a Zanussi ZFL1023 that’s about 20 years old and I can see many spare parts are still available online for it. If you search for the Zanussi ZFL1023 on Google, I found at the top of the Google search some links to videos of it. 2 things strike me from briefly watching these videos: 1) It does a “spinwash”, which my washing machine doesn’t. 2) It uses a LOT more water than mine for rinsing.
With a TMV fitted, I hope one day I can own this washing machine and rinse everything in warm water with those higher water levels. I’m not sure if a TMV would work if that washing machine has hot and cold fill (or if I can use a “Y” connector on a TMV valve to connect both hot and cold hoses to the TMV?).
I definitely agree with the earlier comments about keeping old washing machines running. Let’s not forget that you won’t have the hassle of onboard computer electronics dying (these are standard on all new washing machines) because the old mechanical timers seem to outlast the electronic ones by many years.
Old washing machines do have smaller drums and slower spin speeds, but does that matter if you can keep it going for years and the repairs would work out cheaper than the stupid prices charged by the manufacturers of today’s washing machines (except ISE)? Let’s put an end to this “stack ‘em high, sell ‘em cheap” rubbish and use washing machines that are reliable, cheap to repair, wash and rinse properly i.e. “old” washing machines. :)
Inflation is the result of of government manipulating the money supply. We had deflation throughout the 19th Century because of increased competition and improvements in manufacturing that generated cost savings etc. Does’ the author not think that computer technology has not contributed to the cost reduction in his 1973-90′s comparison?
Use limes scale remover regularly and your machine will run for ages. i have had my Zanussi for nearly 6 years and paid £225 (first flat) and gets used 7 times per fortnight.
Miele are fantastic as are their vacuums. But all this technology in machine to link in with formulations is ridiculous. The cost in the expensive ones is as a result of an over engineered washing process in collusion with the laundry powder manufacturers.
Maybe would pay £300- 350 for a washer with 15 year guarantee. Anything else is a rip!
Paul: Inflation is presumably also caused by people putting prices up, supply and demand fluctuations and asking for wage increases etc but manipulating the money supply is also part of it. It’s one weird system.
According to the Historic inflation calculator £300 today is the equivalent of just £30 in 1973, which is my point in the article. In 1973, when washing machines were made to a pretty high quality standard a Hoover washing machine (which was just a normal mass market machine) cost £94.88 so if you buy a washing machine today for £300 that’s the equivalent of less than a third of the cost. If you want to pay less than a third of the cost, you will definitely get a far poorer quality product which will be less repairable and last only a fraction of the time.
In 1973 an ordinary washing machine cost £94.88, which is the equivalent today (2011) to £912.74. So if washing machines had continued to be made to the same standards they should now cost around £900. The fact that many cost a mere £300 and some a crazy £179 cannot be explained by improvements in manufacturing processes and mass production etc alone. They certainly play a big part and my amount comparisons are pretty blunt and general, it’s far more complex than that – but I think it gives a good idea of how the cost of washing machines has plummeted far more than most people realise and the cheap ones are now less than a third the cost from the 1970s, which has been achieved in no small part by drastically reducing their repairability and lifespan.
An update into my ISE 10 ownership after the first year.
I couldn’t be happier.
There have been a couple of incidents where it’s made noises and for the first time this month I had an Error code on the panel. The noises turned out to be a bra wire poking through a hole in the drum, and the error code was fixed by a manual drain and restart. Did I mention how much I love that little hose on the bottom that lets me empty the machine without flooding the utility room??
Both times I’ve had to look at the machine I’ve had my wife giving me that look saying “Now we’ll see if it was worth that £800 you talked me into” and each time it’s been an easy fix and so well thought out with regard to maintenance that its been a pleasure to work on. I’ve no doubt that if something more challenging to fix came along then the 10yr guarantee will be whipped out straight away. So far though I’m impressed!
I’d just like to pick up on a previous poster stating that his 6 yr washing machine was coping with 7 washes a fortnight. I would have thought that was very light use. My machine seems to be on every day. Sometimes twice a day. If I’m more typical use then he’s looking at an equivalent of 2-3 years old, which is an unremarkable length of service, but still nice that its going strong.
” I’ve had my wife giving me that look..”
I hope you returned it when the culprit turned out to be a bra wire! :-)
It is encouraging that at least one manufacturer is making things with an eye to ease of maintenance. Many years ago I had an East German car that, necessarily, was designed the same way. It was a pleasure to work on, but like old motorbikes and old washing machines, it did need regular tweaking, and it could be argued that a modern low-price machine that gives no trouble for 5 years is just as good. Putting £1 a week in a pot and using it to buy a replacement when necessary is not such a bad alternative, although the unintended consequences of ‘low energy’ design, such as crap rinsing, is a complicating factor.
“£300 today is the equivalent of just £30 in 1973″
I think that’s based on the RPI, which is affected by the very thing we’re looking at, namely consumer goods, which have got cheaper over the years and thus helped reduce the index. Compared to wages, I would say that the difference is a lot greater – £300 was a quarter of my gross salary in 1973!
my mums 51 year old hotpoint empress gets used only once a week these days but when i was a child i remember it being on almost every day its built like a tank when its on thers no noise at all apart fromthe sound of swishing water and as my mum says you can have a load of washing on the line while an automatic is still filling up , i myself foolishly bought a new hotpoint auto washer a fiew months back i only bought it because my old hotpoint gave up the ghost after 22 years what a mistake its had two sets of bearings in 6 months if they go again im going to take it down to currys dump it in the shop and demand a refund meanwhile where do i do my washing when its broken you guessed it at my mums in the old Empress of course
The real issue here is why even £350-£450 washing machines are so unreliable. There is absolutely no reason why they can’t be just as reliable as in the old days, and indeed, even cheaper! Thats the whole point of efficient design and cheap manuafacturing techniques… Sadly profit is king, and companies have learnt to exploit people’s fears and convince them newer is better.
Doesn’t capitalism, with its endless growth, require all manufacturers to keep on making and selling things? So its not in Hotpoint’s interests to keep machines from 1990 going! The car industry is now exactly the same, its a massive joke!
I’ve just bought a basic Beko washing machine as I genuinely can’t afford a £600-£800 machine at all! At £229 I’m not too fussed if I need a few parts here and there outside of the year’s warranty.
Hello Pete: They could still be more reliable yes. My research showed that it should be at least £500 – £600 in today’s money for a basic washing machine though. Cheaper prices have been partially down to production methods but also very much down to simply reducing quality.
One of the biggest problems is that they simply keep changing components (presumably in the never ending pursuit of finding cheaper parts) and never benefit from a slowly evolving reliable component. All they have to do is design a decent part, let it evolve, see that it works, and keep using it. There’s no need to keep changing all the components other than to constantly drive down prices or as you suggest increase profits.
Hoover for example have been making the modern (matchbox-style) front loading washing machines for over 40 years, yet they currently have washing machines exploding in people’s kitchens (article coming soon). No one can tell me Hoover shouldn’t have perfected the art of making decent washing machines by now if that’s what they wanted to do.
I have a 25 year old Whirlpool ThinTwin washer/dryer. It looks dated, is inefficient and only does a mediocre job of washing and drying, but you’d have to pry it from my dead hands to get me to part with it. With all of its shortcomings, it keeps running with only a $50 or $100 part every three or four years. So far, all it has needed is a timer, belts and a few pulleys. Most of the newer, sleek looking, efficient machines they sell here (in the US), cost $2000 a pair, do an even worse job of cleaning, tend to get moldy and stinky, then quit after a few years. They have too fragile a design (especially front-loaders) and tend to have too much cheap (though expensive to repair, due to unique parts) electronic junk from China packed into them; thanks, but no-thanks!
One last thing: no matter how efficient it may be, there is nothing sustainable about an appliance that doesn’t last. All the energy saved in its short life (and more) will be consumed melting the metal down to make a replacement, shipping parts to or from China and land-filling the parts that can’t be recycled.
I got my second washer in the space of a year (1st was a Hotpoint, the 2nd is the Zanussi Jetsystem ZWF16581W). The Hotpoint broke down in the first month and again once a month for 6months, each repair taking 2weeks except for the final repair which took 6months! I decided to cut my losses and buy a new machine.
My mum has a Zanussi Jetsystem from 2001 which has had two repairs (a new pump and a new PCB board), and my dad has one from 2006 (which has had no repairs at all) both work like they’re new so I’m hoping my machine lasts just as long. When I lived with my mum the machine was on at least once a day, same for my dad. Mine is used at least once a day. My dad took out an extended warranty which has since expired and not had to use it, so he’s happy the machine has proved to be reliable but not too happy as the warranty was wasted money.
My parents first washer (Zanussi Washcraft) is still running. They got it in 1986 after my mum refused to wash both mine and my brothers Terry nappies by hand. It cost them over £500 back then. They then changed to the Hoover Ecologic washer dryer, whilst it broke down a few times (brushes, belt, programmer twice and bearings) my dad repaired the machine then by a new one, the only reason why they got rid of it was because my dad wired something up wrong in it and blew the thing up. The next Hoover they got lasted 18months hence to change back to Zanussi.
I have looked at the price fr spares for my machine and my god are the expensive, I saw a motor for mine costing over £200! I myself am 27 and brought up to repair things than bin things. While I like modern things I also like reliabilty. I’d rather repair my machine than bin it because a simple part has broken, however due to the high costs for spare parts I will reluctantly replace the machine which I think is a waste. My dad has a Kirby Cleaner that he got in 1983/84 costing a lot of money, I hated it when growing up but now appreciate the quality, it still works perfectly fine. I have a Dyson and it’s nowhere near as good but it’s better than others I’ve used.
A couple of questions, why do Hotpoint washers have so many bearing failures. Are Zanussi a more reliable brand than Hotpoint or did I have rotten luck? From personal experience I’d say Zanussi are more reliable, my mates parents have had 2 Hotpoint washers in the time that my dad has had his Zanussi but again not sure if that’s just down to luck as they’re both in the same price range. Also what do you think the LG washers, my dad said he will replace his Zanussi with an LG machine once it’s given up the ghost due to it’s DD motor (he’s an engineer and so loves things like that.
Don’t touch LG! Absolutely dire!! Their own engineers say anything over a half load will destroy motor (DD type) and one I tried used over 4 times the electricity on a 30 degree wash that my old Hoover did on a 60 degree. Washing poor and rinsing dire and that wad a Which? Best buy model! Also reliability awful. Skipped it at 18 months old after 3 catastrophic break downs.
Thanks for the heads up on LG Dave. Will let my dad know. Do you know anything about the new AEG washers? They said their new machines have fewer moving parts so will last longer. I had thought of buying an AEG but it cost more than Zanussi yet is built by the same company so wasn’t sure if I was paying for a better machine or not.
Thanks for the tip about AEG. just one question, is their overall reliability better than Zanussi despite being made by the same company?
Phil
Hotpoint have always had drum bearing failures as do many other washing machines though I’m not sure how they fair at the moment. In my opinion it’s because they don’t mind, they make plenty of money out of the spares or selling another machine. I don’t accept for one minute that a manufacturer who has made washing machines for decades cannot produce a reliable product or one where drum bearings rarely if ever fail. They produce them to be as reliable – or unreliable as they desire.
I accept that any manufacturer making a product too reliable will probably not survive or price themselves out of the market unless they can command a premium price. It’s all about the balance between what’s acceptable and fair compared to the prices paid. Currently many manufacturers have pushed this acceptability and fairness to the limit by making their appliance less and less repairable. The only trouble is they virtually all do it so they are all in it together and it’s hard to single out any brands that are much more reliable as they are mostly much of a muchness (apart from Miele and the ISE10).
I reckon they are a little more reliable but I’ve been to many with the same problem of drum bearing failures though I think it may be cheaper to repair theirs. Many Hotpoint’s can no longer even have their drums stripped down as they’ve started welding the inner drum and bearings into the outer tub. One reason I would avoid Hotpoint.
I used to go for AEG personally, parts and technical information are easier to come by. But unfortunately they appear to have joined the increasing ranks of manufacturers building washing machines with drums bearings and seals completely sealed into their outer tubs which cannot be repaired or stripped down to retrieve obstructions which I completely disagree with and do not recommend.
An interesting thread. My parents had a Hoover new wave bought in 1990, when i was born, and it lasted to around 2006, this was in constant use with four people from new to when it died. Any new hoover i would doubt would last a year, and to make ones which explode is really irresponsible. How can you cost cut when it gets to the extreme of being fatal, especially the Beko fridges and cookers.
Any appliance now, I would go for Miele, (I have one of their vacuums and its amazing) I am hoping to work for them in Germany in the design sector. Granted they are expensive, but they have a long history, and the testing they go through is immense, even the laboratories that test out the effects on garments, and how they can achieve the best results! I also like how they make the majority of their own components in house, something no other company does, probably Asko included. So even though they are expensive to fix, its a very small likelihood they’ll go wrong, when they’ve been through so many tests and development, the Germans are very fussy about this.
Reminds me of a time, when my dad fitted Miele kitchens and one of the clients insisted their built in washing machine was faulty, because there’s a certain knack to closing the door; swinging shut rather than slamming. A rep from Germany actually came over to Yorkshire to inspect the problem! Any other company that would do this? I doubt it very much.
Phil: There probably isn’t a significant difference, Zanussi are roughly in the budget price range and AEG are their mid price range. Most manufacturers add features not quality to their more expensive products. However, I would expect some slightly better quality components, maybe slightly stronger suspension legs etc.
Adam: The New Waves were much more repairable than modern Hoover washing machines. For example you could still strip down the motor to replace an armature or just the carbon brush ring. Funnily enough when I was repairing the Hoover New Wave’s we were all lamenting how they were not as good as the previous models.
I agree with all your comments about Miele, and if money is no object you cannot better them. However, people can have more concerns and worries about something that’s statistically rare if consequences are serious, and can worry less about something that’s more likely to happen if the consequences are more easily dealt with. The way most people’s psychology works is if you tell a million people that only 10 of them will sufferer a serious event, at least half of them are likely to immediately tell themselves, “that’ll be me”. (maybe even more?) . This strange behaviour works in reverse of course, if you told a million people that 10 of them will win a million pounds I reckon at least halve of them would think, “knowing my luck it won’t be me” :-)
I completely disagree with much of this article and most of the comments. Miele is mentioned for example, which to be honest are completely overrated. My wife has a good highend Hotpoint Washing machine from 6-7 years ago and her mum has a Miele which cost significantly more. The Miele is crap in comparison pure and simple. We have had to do NOTHING to the Hotpoint (and Hotpoint are a garbage make). The Miele by contrast has had the water pump replaced which cost a couple of hundred pounds and was dreadful to work on as well. Don’t even get me started started on Fridge Freezers – they are ALL garbage, even the SMEG’s which costs £1500 are nowhere near the build quality of an older fridge freezer.
Ungrateful? Spoilt? Where do some of you people get this stuff? If you are paying several hundreds of pounds for a machine it should last, regardless. The duty is on the manufacturer to produce a good quality item (which is what you are paying for) and I shouldn’t have to fork out £1000 for a washing machine, just to be sure it will last. I certainly shouldn’t have to be content with a pathetic 12 month warranty. Stop attacking the consumer and put the blame where it lies, with the greedy corporations and their self-absorbed shareholders. We consumers are doing our part by PAYING for their salaries – aren’t we?
Traxxion: Your argument is based only on examples of two washing machines. It uses the flawed logic of, I know of one Miele washing machine that has been unreliable, and one Hotpoint that has been reliable, therefore the consensus that Miele are better than Hotpoint is wrong. It’s like saying a report that silver cars are the most common cars in the UK is wrong because on your street the most common colour you can see is red. Miele are completely superior build quality to Hotpoint. The fact that a Miele you know of had a pump failure and a Hotpoint you know of hasn’t broken down in 7 years doesn’t mean Hotpoint are more reliable than Miele.
It’s the same kind of argument as saying my granddad smoked since he was 12 and lived ’til 95, therefore smoking can’t be bad for your health. Anomalies are everywhere, as are exceptions to rules, but they can’t change facts.
The consumer is to blame in the same way as the consumer is to blame for the trashy magazines and newspapers like the News of the World. They are also to blame for spam. If no one clicked on any spam the entire industry would instantly die, but clearly many (albeit a minority) do click, and do buy the rubbish which is why we all have to suffer spam. Likewise if no one bought all the crap magazines focussing on tittle-tattle, lies, scandal and paparazzi photos then they too would not exist.
If people stopped buying rubbish appliances….
The argument doesn’t mean all the public are to blame, but elements of the public are to blame because most people buy the cheapest washing machines and shun the ones trying to be better because they are “too expensive”. Manufacturers of washing machines and appliances supply what the public generally want, or at least what they think they want. If the public wanted high quality washing machines that could be repaired and last 20 years then the people producing them would thrive and the ones selling crap would not. The truth is, that although most people want them, they are not prepared (or often even able to afford) to pay for them.
Of course the manufactures are very guilty too, but we can’t change their behaviour without changing ours first.
@Traxxion
I’m mainly in sympathy with your post, most certainly over the points about length of warranty and longevity (or not) of (many) premium brands for which one is expected to pay (excessively) high prices.
The only slight area of disagreement between us might be over your implication that a fair price for a washer should be in the lower hundreds of pounds.
Given the atrocious build quality (including that of at least one premium price brand: LG) I feel that all currently available washers should be costing less than £500, possibly a lot less. HOWEVER, IF – and it’s a very big IF, washers were built to the same standards that even CHEAP ones were up to the late 1980′s, and taking account of inflation, I do think that perhaps we would then be wrong to expect such low prices.
My 1983 washer retailed at about £250 at the time it was new. It’s still running as good as the day it was bought and it’s now 29 years old. It was not a premium brand (Hoover) but it was built to a quality standard which was evidently even better than the maker’s warranty of the time (2 years) suggested.
If you do some calculations (and I’m no economist so I’ve relied on something that Washerhelp posted on here over a year ago, but it seems reasonable) you’d now expect to pay about £900 for the same product.
I’ve experienced an LG that cost £800 in 2008 – that was absolute rubbish in both reliability and doing the job. So obviously paying a price that is roughly equivalent to what we were paying in the 80′s is no guarantee of getting the equivalent quality, therefore I agree with you about the rip off pricing. but IF the quality WAS available, then I think perhaps we should be prepared to pay for it now as we were then.
I absolutely agree with you about Fridges – any and every brand. They are over-priced and often the big name brands and ‘trendy’ ones are lower quality and less effective than the super-cheap ones. I read a few years ago that a Russian made fridge, being sold as a Dixon’s own brand for £99, had won awards for build quality, reliability and accuracy of temperature control, which none of the big name brands could come near to. I think this proves your point.
There are a lot of rip off prices. Take shavers for example. The price of some shavers is unbelievable. We are always charged by one simple calculation, what can we get away with charging for this.. and how can we add extra perceived value…
I believe, as Dave has pointed out, that a high quality washing machine is likely to cost at least £800 and higher. However, if most people favoured high quality washing machines the price would come down as they became mainstream instead of niche-market selling in relatively very small quantities.
Currently we are being ripped off with pretty expensive washing machines full of so-called desirable features that are built no better than the cheapest basic versions – If I buy a more expensive washing machine, do I get a better washing machine?
Another complete rip off is spin speeds. The idea that a manufacturer needs to build washing machines all virtually the same but with varying spin speeds is pure marketing Are washing machine spin speeds a con?
By the way, I do acknowledge, or at least guess that you are no doubt an experienced tradesman, so I defer to your experience of various brands. I was just trying to make my point that I don’t believe the prices of premium brands are reasonable, therefore while the average consumer may be ill informed and feeding a broken system, I don’t think the consumer is to blame for poor quality. Certainly not in the same way that they are to blame for the rise of rubbish Apple products and trashy magazines. Washing machines and fridges are domestic utility items. They need to be fit for purpose and it starts and stops with the manufacturer (aka scam artist) as far as I’m concerned.
I understand what you are saying, but please listen to what I was saying. For a start I did not say that Hopoint are better than Miele build quality simply based on one machine (better check your logic there). I said. yes, that Miele are overrated. That in this case the Miele cost more, is less reliable, has less features AND the washer pump is a common problem on this model. How does this distinguish the Miele build quality as superior – in this case? What benefit did the consumer get from paying the extra money? NONE. I also definitely said that Hotpoint are RUBBISH, yet in this case, the consumer has been robbed by Miele and Hotpoint are looking pretty good by comparison. What I am saying, is WHY should I pay over the odds, when I am not guaranteed to get a better result?
Do you not feel the features and design of a Hotpoint machine somewhat offset the bland oldschool build of a Miele? Why do Miele’s fetch a premium, when they are using less advanced technology and basic designs? The same goes for SMEG, Bosch or any other overrated brand. In all cases I am quite possibly better off financially and possibly getting a better machine by plumping for Beko. Its not like the premium brand is offering you the benefits of say buying a Ferrari over a Fiat. They aren’t better machines, just ‘possibly’ better build quality. By the way – Beko are not a premium brand, but service the lower end and yet do not run far behind Miele in reliability stakes – interesting no?
I do agree with what you are saying about the consumer in general however, I just don’t think it applies so much to these machines, when the lines are so blurry and pretty much all the machines are expensive. £700 is NOT cheap. I don’t care who you are trying to defend – an appliance costs nowhere NEAR that amount of money to build. Defending the dirty behaviour of manufacturers, exacerbates the problem. And then the cheek of them to ask me for MORE warranty money? I’m sorry, I agree with some of what you are saying, but I do feel your reasoning is faulty…..
I see my previous post hasn’t appeared, but I really have to disagree with you Traxxion. Miele are the best you can get, and do you not think that the design and build of them hasn’t changed for decades, because it hasn’t needed to be.
Please find me a manufacturer however that goes to the same level of detail and testing that they do, including laboratory testing on laundry, and even manufacture of components. I suppose you’re also calling the Which readers liars, as Miele constantly comes out on top. Because are they that un-reliable and crap?!
Oh, I forgot, Miele offer 10 year warranties, rather than just a year, does that not prove they are confident in their products? Afterall, they are German, says it all.
As for Beko being good, you have got to be having a laugh. Carbon monoxide cookers and fridge freezers bursting into flames, I dont think so. Wouldn’t go near a Beko with a 30ft barge pole.
@Traxxion.
Your last two posts exemplify EXACTLY why we get cheap, rubbish, washers flooding the market: people who buy an appliance based on it’s ability to carry out the job it is supposed to do and / or for it’s build-quality & expected life-span, are not interested in so-called ‘features’ (which, incidentally, the Energy Saving Trust claim are responsible for the excessive energy consumption of modern appliances compared to their predecessors, is-spite of the worthless energy-ratings they display).
Broadly speaking, though not 100% of the time, the more ‘features’ an appliance has, the less reliable, less efficient, less effective and less robust it is.
Indeed, many ‘features’ of modern washers are in fact things that older, and possibly quality (like Miele and ISE), machines did / do as a standard part of their cycles. They are not really “features’ at all.
Miele (and maybe ISE and possibly Bosch) build machines that are designed to last, designed to do the job (as well as you can get these days) and designed to look like what they are: white goods.
The demand from (mainly very gullible) customers for silly curvy shapes, daft colours (who wants a pink washing machine with daisies on it? LG think you do!), (mainly) pointless features (almost all of which never get used by almost every owner) and, worst of all, the expectation that you’ll change your appliances more often than some people change their socks in order to have the latest looking one all the time, are the reasons why the manufacturers turn out utter trash.
Miele have the confidence, quite rightly I think, to make machines which look plain (so they will fit with ANY kitchen or decor), machines which do a better job than any other on the market (though I can confirm from immediate relative’s experience, not as well as machines made 30 years ago) and machines which are guaranteed for at least 10 years and designed to run for at least 20 years.
I’m not a massive Miele fan, but if I ever have to face the horror of replacing my 29 year old washer which actually does wash, rinse and spin well, I’ll be buying a Miele because I will be confident of getting a similar trouble free lifespan from it and of getting the best washing and rinsing that can be obtained now.
Adam: Please listen to me very carefully. I categorically did NOT say that Miele were crap. I said in essence “why should I be ripped off by Miele for their overrated machines, when there is a good chance a Beko or Hotpoint will last every bit as long?”. Unlke you I had the benefit of an actual example and if you cared to look, a cursory glance down the comments on this page would reveal that many people feel the same way. I also said that Beko were not far behind Miele in reliability. Don’t believe me – why don’t you check Which magazine? I also said that Miele machines lack modern design features. For example, my 8 year old Hotpoint (still going strong) can be opened mid wash. Sounds useful – no? Then there is the actual cost to build. You can spend 1000 quid on a 30 year old design if you like, but that machine doesn’t cost anything like that to build. Then there is your comment about ‘labs’. Wow! Small point – do you not think ALL product manufacturers have test labs? It just sounds like you are ‘reaching’ a little. I have the benefit of facts (i.e. all the above) so I would think there is little we can disagree on?
Traxxion: There’s no doubt that Miele washing machines are seriously higher quality than a Beko or Hotpoint. And that they are far more sophisticated. You may have been comparing a basic entry model Miele with a “bells and whistles” Hotpoint. I can certainly open my Miele door mid wash if I want. It’s more to do with water levels, which were at one time high enough to prevent the door opening but now are universally low enough to make it ok.
It’s like comparing a BMW with a Fiat car. However, there are people who buy a Fiat – or of course a Beko – and it lasts for many many years and it rarely or never breaks down, just as there are people who conversely buy a BMW – or Miele washing machine – and have a lot of trouble with it, or it doesn’t last very long. But these are just anomalies, which if so minded, anyone can use to justify saying there’s no point paying so much more to buy the “better quality product”. It’s a completely flawed logic but understandable if anyone has been let down by a “quality” product or has bought a so-called cheap product and been lucky enough to have no trouble and a long life from it.
At the end of the day it’s about odds. The odds are that if you buy a product known as the cheapest on the market it won’t last or be as reliable as one renowned for being the best at twice the cost. If you buy the best and it sucks, it’s illogical to deduce buying the best is pointless just the same as if you buy the cheapest and it lasts it doesn’t prove buying premium brands is pointless.
To me, it’s the same principle as playing the game Bruce’s play your cards right with the predicting of higher or lower cards. If the first card is a 4, then statistically the odds of the next card being higher are greatly in your favour and you should call higher. But it’s perfectly possible for the next card to be a 2, 3, or even another 4 – and if it is, it doesn’t mean you were wrong to predict higher. You should generally always predict higher on such a card because although it’s possible for the next one to be lower or only the same there are far greater odds that it should be higher.
It’s more complex than that of course when buying products because the cost is often highly relevant but although I agree that Miele don’t appear to be as great as they once were they are still seriously better than any Beko or Hotpoint.
Again Traxxion you are wrong.
I have been a subscriber to Which, and no Beko washing machines have ever been a best buy, and Hotpoint haven’t had many either.
Drama as washing machine explodes in Hatfield.
Really, Hotpoint now owned by Indesit. And as for the jokes aka known as the faulty cookers and fridge freezers brought to us by Beko, you really think they are reliable? People died as a result of those poorly designed products, Beko were manufacturing those fridges for 7 years with the same thermostat. Quality control I don’t think so.
Don’t talk to me about Hotpoint, my current flat has a WMA35, the parents have the exact same one, and they are nothing but useless. They don’t get anything clean, even with a 40 degree cycle and Waitrose concentrated bio liquid. They are so noisy and unstable, and really are a waste of space.
Say what you will, but Miele can’t be beaten. FYI, Miele machines can be opened mid cycle, and the design hasn’t ever changed because it works, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
Washerhelp: OK, its really obvious how differently we see things.
I find it interesting that you used BMW as an example. There we have the same issue – is a BMW worth the premium? The answer if you know anything about cars is NO. The logic that BMW’s are made in Germany therefore they are better than X (although FIAT I will grant you *shudder* ….) is flawed. BMW’s are waaaay overrated and overpriced. They are not quality vehicles. In fact a 3 series is so basic and uncomfortable it makes me want to cry and then laugh at the silly owners who choose them. Mercedes – same problem – HORRENDOUS recent sevice and reliability records on their machines (no I don’t mean the S class), yet the yuppies stil buy them. I’d rather own a Ford Focus – and I hate the Ford Focus. In my opinion, Miele’s are overrated in the same way.
How anyone can look at Which charts, see a 2% difference in machine reliability between Beko and Miele, then hand over an extra £400 quid or so is beyond me, but it is your money and everyone is free to do as they please. Personally I would rather plump for an underdog any day of the week if it there is even a chance of getting the same/similar service life and more features. Its back to the basic Miele costing more than the highend Hotpoint. Erm… I think I’ll take the Hotpoint thanks very much, skip the warranty and take my chances….!? To me it is a no brainer. I don’t think this makes me a ‘stupid’ consumer – quite the opposite actually.
I just bought a Beko fridge freezer today – it can operate at – 15 degrees C, unlike other fridge freezers on the market and is well designed in other respects too. The Hotpoint FF has given up after about 8 years (not too bad). Longevity of the Beko – I guess we will see, but my old Beko TV gave good service and again, the picture was better than an equivalent Sony costing twice as much. Interesting to note that my premium brand Sony only lasted 3 years. I have a Miele vacuum cleaner which has been pretty good. Again, it is pretty basic compared to a Dyson, or even an LG. I don’t rate the Miele higher than LG to be honest, since the LG didn’t break either and had the benefit of being bagless and not losing suction, but the Miele does work well enough.
You seem to be assuming again and again that I speak only out of experiencing one product vs another, even though I have repeatedly tried to clarify this is not the case. In fact I specified that the pump failure on this particular Miele was apparently a common problem, not a one-off experience. I also, was the person who replaced the pump for my mother-in-law and the inside of the wshing machine looked like something from the 80′s! So, finally, I did a random search for Miele on Google and completely by chance ended up on one of your reviews. I found an interesting comment, which sums up the likes of Miele quite nicely:
“Of course parts are likely to be expensive too because they are high quality parts though even accounting for the quality it’s hard to justify some of the prices of some spare parts, which franky can be astounding (eg. £500 for a motor, £200 for a pump). ”
The fact you have ever encountered having to purchase these parts, let alone that they are a COMPLETE ripoff, is all I need to make a decision I’m afraid and I can’t STAND unreasoned brand loyalty (i.e. Sony, Miele, BMW, Dell) when other products are almost always better. Where are the ‘better designed’ MIele/BMW products? I just don’t see it.
Thanks though for the civil debate. I think you have a great well written website!
Hello Traxxion: I agree that many of the premium brands have reduced quality compared to their past and it’s a shame, though they are usually still better than the budget or even normal brands. Unfortunately we pay a lot for better quality. I also agree that “premium brands” are commonly overpriced in that their perceived value is worth more money and many people will pay extra for better. Often it is 3 times the cost for 50% better but premium quality brands don’t sell in the mass quantities that cheap ones do so economies of scale don’t help.
I wouldn’t go too much on the reliability figures from Which? – I have commented on them before as I believe the chart to have flaws in it due to the vast differences in sample numbers. Here’s what I wrote before on the topic –
“.. Which? say that the table is compiled from “the manufacturers that have the best reliability according to our members” and although that’s extremely interesting to see, I do have a problem with it in that each manufacturers reliability percentage is derived from a totally different sample. So to me its not really a fair comparison.
If you look at the numbers in brackets at the side of each manufacturer listed you can see that there’s a potentially distorting difference. I’m no statistician, but the numbers sampled can have a significant effect on end percentages. If you have 100 people owning a washing machine, and 10 of them have problems then its 10%, but if you have 200 people and 10 of them have problems its only 5%. The same results from just 2 people would be 50%.
The Tricity Bendix figures, which show as the most reliable washing machine are derived from just 93 people, whereas the Miele sample was 393 and the Bosh sample was 2,104. Because the samples are all different I cant see how this table can be 100% reliable.
Another anomaly is that Tricity Bendix beats Zanussi in the reliability table (who appear only halfway down), yet Tricity Bendix washing machines are only budget versions of Zanussi washing machines made by the same (Electrolux) group so you’d expect them to have the same reliability. One possible explanation (other than the very small sample size used for tricity Bendix) is that as budget washing machines, the Tricity Bendix brand is less complex, and therefore could be more reliable than the supposedly better quality Zanussi they are derived from. In fairness, if Tricity Bendix was particularly unreliable, a small sample size would work against it creating a larger percentage of people with problems so I’m happy to accept that Tricity Bendix may be very reliable for the price.
Finally, Candy is 6% above Hoover yet Hoover and Candy are fundamentally the same washing machines made by the same group with Hoover being the slightly more up-market product and supposed to be slightly better built.
Washing machine manufacturers labour charges are all fairly similar and surprisingly, the better quality washing machine manufacturers often charge no more or even less than some of the much cheaper brands.”
@Traxxion
There is, of course, the issue of the fact that “long life”, “Work well”, “Good value”, “Fair price” and so on are all SUBJECTIVE statements. I.e. they are all based on OPINIONS and not facts.
In my OPINION, no white goods item which lasts less than 5 years without a repair, or which has a total lifespan of less than 30 years is worth buying at all ….. that’s why I use a 1957 Hoover vacuum which has never yet needed anything beyond belts, sweeping brushes and bags, a 1983 Hoover Washer that has only ever had a new door seal or two, a 1976 Swan automatic kettle which has never needed any repair of any kind, a 1984 Russell Hobbs coffee percolator that has never failed, a 1981 Black and Decker lawn mower that has never had any repairs beyond replacement blades, a 1986 Bosch hedge trimmer that has never had any repairs other than sharpening the blade, a 1991 Hitachi TV that has never needed any repairs, a 1989 LEC fridge that has never needed repair, a 1994 LEC freezer that has never needed repair & a 1979 Glow Worm boiler that has never yet failed in any way.
It’s also why I now have a 2007 Miele Dishwasher with a 10 year guarantee after having a 1988 Bosch that managed only 10 years and then a 1999 Hoover Dishwasher that managed only 6 years. After that I had a year of washing pots by hand whilst I saved for the Miele. The Bosch and the Hoover together cost as much to buy and have repaired a couple of times each as a top of the range Miele, but I only bought a mid-range Miele. It’s still got he warranty so I should be quids in and if I’d had sense and bought Miele (or some other very highly reliable brand) to start with I’d not have wasted the money on the other two.
MOST people will not agree with me that my expectations are either realistic nor even desirable. Most people will also think that my machines are not good enough because they don’t have new ‘features’, and it sounds as though you would think that too, but why would I want new ‘features’? My Vacuum is rated at only 225 watts. Most modern ones are rated at at the very least 1500watts. I vacuum for 1/8 the energy cost of any new machine and yet my vac picks up all sorts that a Dyson and even a Miele, yes a Miele, modern one will not suck up at all.
My washer washes the clothes for less than 1 kWh of electricity, does a cycle in well under an hour (and that is NOT the quick wash) and rinses all the soap out properly. Why would I want a new one that uses 2 or 3 kWh to run a wash, takes 3 hours to do it and then leaves it full of soap?
As I said in an earlier post, I’m afraid it’s folk like you who demand ‘features’ and also demand what you call a good price but what in real terms is actually a huge reduction in price from what is realistic, who encourage the manufacturers to turn out crap at a throw away price. You balk at the cost of spares for the likes of Miele, but that’s only because you appear to live in the throw-away society that says “don’t mend, replace”.
As for you your comment that Washerhelp has unreasoned brand loyalty – I don’t think he or anyone else on here has said anything to suggest a brand loyalty at all except you with your budget-brand loyalties. I am only loyal to the brands I have as long as they continue to work without repair or replacement. If any of them do fail, at the age of my appliances they owe me nothing , and come that time I will replace with whatever is on the market that is expected to do the job, nothing but the job, do the job well and last a long time. Buy the time I buy new it may be that the brand I buy doesn’t even exist yet. There is no question of unreasoned brand loyalty.
Let me clarify a few things:
It is, and i have to say, I agree with him. He is an engineer after all, what does he know?!
Have you ever been to Germany? After a recent trip to Berlin, 99% of cars I saw driven were BMW, Audi, Mercedes or VW. I will rather believe that the Germans do favour their quality vehicles as opposed to anything else. I doubt very much that the Germans are wrong, they insist on quality.
Hmm, Im not saying anything. But in my previous post, I describe Hotpoint machines as a waste of space, poorly built and don’t wash at all well, and thats an old one, I hate to imagine what the newer ones are like…
Again, good luck with that….
Again, back to the previous post. You seem to have been brainwashed that bagless is better, when it at all isn’t. ‘Loss of suction’ is a load of bunkum, James Dyson would have us to believe…
Like we have been telling you, Miele have not changed their design or construction because it works! Why change something when it already works well for you?!
Interesting comments. I hope this doesn’t descend into unfriendly arguments from entrenched points of view. As Dave rightly pointed out some of these points of view are subjective, so chances are no one is going to change their mind in an argumentative situation.
As I pointed out in my previous comment people usually arrive at certain points of view in reaction to personal experiences and Traxxion’s comment, “my premium brand Sony only lasted 3 years” appears to confirm one of the reasons for Traxxion’s feelings.
I do actually agree with some of the points, especially regarding the extremely high cost of Miele spares (which I’ve been very critical of in another article and comments).
I welcome all points of view and have no wish to run a discussion where people are unable to express a differing point of view without being jumped on but maybe the opening phrase, “I completely disagree with much of this article and most of the comments” was not the best way of joining in a discussion :)
Washerhelp:
Point taken….. :)
Dave: That’s pretty remarkable and if the machines do the job, then why not. To be honest I am no different with the machines that interest me – computers. These days, I recycle and redploy them for different tasks through the house and am not too worried about having the lastest/greatest. I just don’t think a washer is worth £1000, that’s all really …..
Adam: Unfortunately, I feel you are being slightly more personal than anyone else, so to be honest I did start to write something, but out of respect for Washerhelp’s exemplary moderation I will just cease and desist. We are only discussing machines after all ….. Thanks.
Cheers Traxxion: I think it’s established we are all reasonable people now so if the discussion continues it can steer away from being too aggressive :)
@Traxxion. Thanks – yes it is quite remarkable in some ways. It’s worth pointing out that I’m not a silver-surfer (not that there is anything wrong with them) but only in my early 40′s. Some of my domestic appliances are older than I am, ALL except the dishwasher are the first and only of each type I’ve ever had, which is why most are a similar age due to being bought in the 80′s when I turned 18 and came to live in my own house. Possibly a large part of it is that I expect things to last ‘forever’ and I look after them and maintain them to try to get a good life out of them.
I’m also a Chartered IT Professional and teach computing – so you’ll not be surprised that I favour Apple products as they also have very long and usually trouble-free lives. Possibly you and I would agree on Apple being good value and well made? Apple are surely the Miele of the computer world?
I’ve read through this thread with great interest and have decided to chip in with my two pennyworth. I think that a lot of the raw anger expressed here is simply because it is increasingly difficult these days to take the quality option when buying white goods, given that even once reputable brands are little better than the cheap as chips alternative.
In my own house I have two fridge freezers (don’t ask why) – one a 35 year old Swedish built Electrolux TR1241, the other a 16 year old Asko KF7932. The Electrolux came as part of the deal when we bought our first house twenty odd years ago, so it was by no means this year’s model even then. Over the intervening years, the only replacement for it has been the fridge thermostat, not even the light bulb has gone. The Asko was probably the best quality model going when we got it in 1995 and was by no means cheap even then. However its door seals are now on the way out, the internal fridge lining has cracked in places and the bottom of the freezer door is beginning to rust away. The reality is that I can’t get parts for the Asko, so when the seals do finally give in, I’ll have to replace it, even though I would prefer not to. As such there is every likelihood that the Electrolux will still be going when the Asko is on its final journey to the dump. And from what I can see, I’m probably not even going to be able to buy another fridge freezer like the Asko, with twin compressors, at almost any price, unless I go for a US imported GE side by side American style job. As for something with the build quality of the Electrolux – well they just don’t exist anymore. So I too sense the frustration when pursuing the quality option for white goods becomes so constrained, and limited between one or two brands, with the rest being equally poor. I’m sure that I’m not alone in wishing that manufacturers would concentrate far less on all the bells and whistles they put on their products, and instead get back to making rather less complex items that are designed to last, and which can be fixed when they do go wrong. This is though I imagine just too much to hope for.
@Dave “I’m also a Chartered IT Professional and teach computing so you’ll not be surprised that I favour Apple products as they also have very long and usually trouble-free lives. Possibly you and I would agree on Apple being good value and well made? Apple are surely the Miele of the computer world?”
Ha ha… I think you are trying to catch me hook line and sinker?? If we start a discussion about my opinion of Apple products, we will definitely, DEFINTELY having a falling out on our hands here :) Suffice to say that I don’t disagree that they are generally well made – hmmmm….. we should probably leave it at that before I start a rant ;)
Hi Mark: Most of the white goods manufacturers who made high quality appliances for decades have now moved over to mass producing lower quality appliances. Brands like AEG and Bosch once made very heavy, very high quality appliances, but now just make relatively normal appliances with little difference in quality to their competition. You can now buy a Bosch washing machine for as little as £230 and an AEG for as little as £318.
Even without looking into these figures carefully it should be obvious to most people that you cannot produce a high quality washing machine for £230 – or even £318. Why have they done it? Either because they can’t make it pay any more selling high quality or they got greedy and preferred the mass-market sell.
Unfortunately most white goods manufacturers are flooding the UK with appliances full of fancy features but lower on quality and less repairable. As far as I’m aware we’ve never had so many fridges, cookers and washing machines catching fire or exploding! Just look at some of the recent
white goods safety notices
People appear to want features, features and more features, or they are being beguiled by them. They are buying really cheap throwaway ones or extremely expensive appliances that just aren’t made anywhere near as well as they once were and should be. Until enough people start to shun the brands who only make fancy appliances at high prices where money goes into the features and not the build quality then that’s all we’ll get.
Whilst ever the majority of people think a Miele washing machine at £600 is too expensive because it only has a 6Kg drum and 1300 spin, but will pay up to £800 for a Hotpoint (and then even take out an extended warranty) because it’s got an 11Kg drum and 1600 spin and may be a fancy colour – the quality appliances will remain a niche market selling in such low quantities that they can never bring prices down without having to start reducing quality a little.
Dave – did you not see Traxxion’s, “rubbish Apple products” comment several back? ;)
Washerhelp – thanks for your response to my contribution. As you well know this problem is not simply confined to the white goods market. Going off topic slightly, the same problem affects the power tool industry, where many of the big players source their goods from the thousands of small factories which have sprouted up all over China in recent decades. As a consequence you can, for example, buy a power drill sporting a brand you’ve never heard of, but which looks indentical to that being offered by a big name at double the price. And in reality the two drills are pretty much the same, though the quality control on the latter might be rather better. I know that one increasingly common cheap as chips brand is able to offer a three year warranty on its tools – this being greater than almost all the big players – simply because it doesn’t offer any service repair or spares backup worth mentioning, thus significantly lowering its overheads at a stroke. As a result, if your tool goes wrong within three years, they’ll just send you another one and scrap the old one without even trying to fix it. As a model of sustainability this just cannot be right, but as a consumer it is just very difficult knowing which way to turn given that so many of the big names are at it.
Traxxion: Re the Which? reliability report chart you mentioned. I think it’s flawed, and don’t believe Beko washing machines (basically the cheapest on the market) are almost as reliable as Miele. However, if true it would certainly need an adjustment of attitude :)
The chart is only based on a questionnaire sent out to, “35,000 Which? members asking about the reliability of their domestic appliances up to six years old. Only 10,538 members responded”. The sample numbers used are totally uneven. 1,355 Bosch owners replied but only 139 Whirlpool owners responded.
If 100 people had problems with their Bosch washing machine out of 10,538 owners that’s roughly 1% failure rate – but if just 2 Whirlpool owners out of the 139 had breakdowns that would be roughly 1.4% failure rate. I’ve made this point before too, and repeat, I’m not a statistician so I’m open to being put right if I’m misunderstanding something here. As far as my logic works, you need the same sample size to fairly compare anything.
Regarding Miele verses Beko. 390 Miele owners responded and 215 Beko owners. If you multiply up the stats then out of every 100,000 people, 4000 more Beko owners will have a fault. The chart can’t also take into account faults after 6 years. It’s perfectly possible that the majority of Beko washing machines have long since been scrapped after 10 years but the majority of Miele washing machines are going strong for another 10 years. Therefore although I appreciate your way of interpreting the “only 4% difference” figure as being significant and proving something, I feel it’s taking something at face value which gives a distorted impression.
Another anomaly is that it shows John Lewis washing machines reliability rate of 91% yet John Lewis washing machines are actually Zanussi washing machines with the John Lewis name on. They may have a few extra features such as some extra options or a slightly faster spin, but they are otherwise exactly the same as a normal Zanussi washing machine yet this chart says Zanussi washing machines only have 84% reliability.
Although I’ve made this point in my article and elsewhere it’s worth looking again at how prices for washing machines have changed over the years.
In 1973 a Hoover washing machine spinning at less than 800 rpm with around 4.5kg drum space cost £94.88, which is roughly the equivalent of £986.75 today (according to the Historic inflation calculator)
Unfortunately that’s a pretty simplistic calculation, and can’t be 100% accurate as many things have changed but in real terms I believe it gives a fair idea of how relatively cheap many modern washing machines are.
You can buy a Bosch washing machine now for £230, which is the equivalent of £22.12 in 1973. So imagine if someone had brought out a washing machine in 1973 which instead of the Hoover’s £94.98 price was only £22 – imagine what corners would have to be cut in order to reduce the price so much.
According to this way of looking at things washing machines should in theory be on average around £900 if they’d kept pace with inflation but many are so substantially cheaper it’s hard to explain away in simple lower production costs, and surely no coincidence that they aren’t anywhere near as well made or repairable.
(Apologies for the multiple comments today). I just found whilst pruning my forum, a post from July 2007 where I stated that you can buy a Bosch washing machine for £230. This is exactly the same price as I mentioned earlier today when I said you can buy a Bosch washing machine for – “as little as £230!”
So, 5 years later a Bosch washing machine is exactly the same price. How can we expect quality products when prices are suppressed so much and people at the budget end of the market still only want to pay just over £200 for such a hard working and important appliance?
Washerhelp:
The cheapness of machines relative to inflation – hard to know. There are other obvious factors – availability of materials, streamlined production lines, better tools and engineering, more machines sold and yes, higher turnover of the machines themselves, higher markup on parts?, etc. On the flipside – generally higher labour costs, probably higher materials costs?, more competitors (but that can work both ways). Some of it is just technology I guess. I mean a computer now costs what? – nothing basically.
When you mentioned the bigger drums in your other posts, it clicked with me that this is the main difference on our purple-ish highend Hotpoint! :) Honestly, I find the larger drum incredibly useful and the machine washes well.
Oh I totally accept that a 4% difference (if it is indeed a failure rate), IS statistically significant. No doubt there is some skew in the results as well, but it still says to me that quite a lot of people, the particular type of people who subscribe to Which, are pretty happy with their Bekos. An inferior machine for a third of the money with possibly just as good results, for half the time? Not a bad deal overall.
Your intent in making your point is noble, but I feel the reality is, that if Miele could increase their market share, the prices would not come down – they would go up. Take Apple as an example….. ;P
(sorry, its done now… doh!)