Which? have so far thoroughly tested hundreds of washing machines & washer dryers but one remarkable thing stands out, and it’s something I find astounding. According to Which? they are almost all not good enough at rinsing. Even some washing machines and washer dryers singled out as a Which? “Best Buy” have been “poor” at rinsing, and believe it or not at least one best Buy is “very poor” (accurate at time of writing).
From studying the figures it is clear that if “good”, or “very good” rinsing was one of the prerequisites for a Which? Best Buy there would be no Best Buy washing machines or washer dryers at all – not a single one. It appears that Which? have decided to allow the poor rinsing results to be a caveat instead of a best buy killer. Please note however that several Which? best buys are “satisfactory” at rinsing which is something at least.
Out of 125 washing machines and washer dryers tested, a remarkable 75 of them (60%) were rated either “poor” or “very poor” at rinsing with only 3 getting the rating we should expect for all washing machines which is “good”. The rest were a mere “satisfactory”. To summarise, just less than 3 % of the 125 washers & dryers are “good” at rinsing according to Which?
[update] Since writing this article I’ve discovered Which? no longer give the majority of washing machines 1 or 2 star ratings for rinsing ability, and the majority appear to get 3 or 4 stars. Which? tell me they’ve readjusted their rinse marks to more accurately reflect the degrees of abilities between even poor rinsing machines. However, they are still critical of many of their rinsing abilities in the comments and the pros and cons.
What does this mean?
Well for a start it doesn’t mean that we can settle for one of the three washing machines that are “good” at rinsing because they unfortunately let themselves down in other areas such as with “noisy spin, and poor brand reliability”. However, if you really need a washing machine that rinses better than any other – maybe because of allergies – then at least Which? have identified three candidates out of the 125 they’ve tested so far. I have to advise though that you should go for them only if good rinsing is your most important requirement and are prepared to accept big compromises elsewhere – as long as it rinses well.
Why aren’t washing machines rinsing properly and does it really matter anyway?
Surely all washing machines should rinse well? It’s surely quite simple, you just use enough water to rinse them properly. It’s astounding that we have reached the situation where the majority of washing machines and washer dryers on sale in the UK are apparently poor at rinsing.
This has probably come about because people have been focussing on other aspects, which has left rinsing as a low priority. Two explanations spring to mind. Firstly, the focus on using less and less water is clearly impacting on our washing machine’s ability to rinse effectively. Whereas modern detergents can facilitate efficient and effective washing results at lower temperatures and with less water, no such product is currently allowing effective rinsing with much less water. Good rinsing needs plenty of water which is in direct opposition to the current environmental concerns and clamour to be the washing machine using the least amount of water.
Eco Labels
It might be a good idea to create a fourth category, “rinse efficiency” on the eco labels, or at least include the rinse efficiency as part of the wash efficiency test.
Ultimately if customers don’t notice an issue then it could be argued that it doesn’t really matter. Maybe it doesn’t for most people, but it surely does to anyone sensitive to wash detergents and with allergies and a lot of people are. There were 581 comments added on this topic from such people before I had to close comments to prevent it being endless.
The current situation is that to anyone keen to buy a washing machine with good rinsing I have no washing machine to recommend because none of the companies producing the best, and the most reliable washing machines currently supply one that rinses above average according to Which? (although this could easily change and you would need to check out the latest to be sure – Hundreds of Which? washing machine reviews including the top performing Best Buys).
Are Which? wrong?
Are Which? being too critical? Are Which? applying too stringent a rinse test? I must admit I’ve not had many complaints from people saying their washing machine isn’t rinsing properly and my own Miele washing machine, which although a Which? Best Buy, didn’t receive a “good” rating for rinsing yet it appears to rinse perfectly well as far as we can see. In fact I remarked to my wife that my clothes don’t smell of detergent like they used to in the old washing machine and deduced that it rinsed much better. However, neither of us have any reactions to washing machine detergent.
The thing about Which? is that they are totally independent. They work only for their subscribers interests and are actually a registered charity. They don’t make any money by recommending any product (even though they could) because they want to be seen as 100% unbiased. They are highly respected and I expect they test products fairly.
I suspect Which? are right and that modern washing machines don’t generally rinse very well because of the reasons I speculate about above. Whether it matters or whether it will change depends on whether enough of the public are bothered, or even notice. The 581 comments added to this article below show that many people do find this a big issue.
Related links:
Which? research
NOTE: Which? do rate some washing machines as “satisfactory” for rinsing and even a couple are rated as “good” although unfortunately the few rated good (so far) are not so good on reliability.
Which? are constantly reviewing washing machines so if rinsing is particularly important to you it makes sense to become a member and see all the buying advice. I can’t print their advice for copyright reasons.
Here’s how they describe their reviews -
“We are of course well known for our traditional product testing. And when we test something like the proverbial washing machine, we will ask the laboratory not only to measure how clean the clothes get, but how much water and energy is used? How easy is it to work out the programmes? What is the machine like on specialist cycles? How long does it take? All these things feed into our best buy criteria. We will devise the testing schedule by looking at things from the ordinary user’s point of view: and if standard industry methods are not good enough we will devise our own methods”
Which? Best washing machine brands guide – 1 month trial offer available (access to full reports and all of the Which? online data available to subscribers only. Some useful information is still available to non-members and there is a great trial offer available.
Causes of poor rinsing
There are some common causes of poor rinsing even in washing machines that do rinse well that it might be useful to point out. Anyone experiencing poor rinsing problems where washing comes out with detergent residues or white powder streaks should read this -
White streaks or residual washing powder after washing
Modern washing machines that are good at rinsing?
Which? washing machine reviews and test data available to Which? members. (Which? Best washing machine brands guide – 1 month trial offer available)
Frustrated with Technology:
Your comments are quite right, that adding water to your washing machine on the rinse cycle will help. This is clear evedence that they do not use enough water.
When I had my Hotpoint Aquarius I contacted them about my machines inabillity to rinse. The stupid woman in the call centre said she would check to see if all Hotpoints machines were like this, she said they were, I mean do you really need to be a weatherman to know when it is p155ing it down!!!
So I asked what Hotpoint were going to do about it, such as compensation towards me having to buy a new washing machine, short answer…..NO! Instead a very understated apology, which she bregrudginly had to give.
They did not care their useless washing machine had cause me no end of dermatitis and eczema, the stupid woman made me feel like an oddity and said Hotpoint machines were good at rinsing, I would like to know what sort of washer she has, I bet she hasn’t got a Hotpoint!!!
I even suggested they relaunched a machine that they used to make that use high water levels the Aquarius Diamond springs to mind (they will still have the blue prints, they won’t destroy those), they said it was a bad idea as this machine was bad for the environment as it was a “water guzzler”, why do we need machines that use little water we hardly have droughts as it rains most of the year in the UK. This environmental tosh is a selling point, playing on peoples caring side!
Going back 20 years who had heard of washing detergents aggrevating their skin, no body thats who! Because machines back the used alot of water, in the case of the Servis we had back then about 130 litres per cycle. The other week on the television doctor Hillary Jones was saying about more and more cases of detergent induced dermatitis due to it being left in our clothes. These modern washing machines are breeding a skin complaint, how long will it be before manufacturers see it is their fault and bring out some machines that rinse properly?
Have you ever noticed that every time you buy a new washing machine it does a rinse less e.g. Tricity Bendix 4 rinses, Siltal 3 rinses, Hotpoint 2 rinses. just an example of some of the machines we have had over the years. How long before 1 rinse? So it is not just low water levels but less rinse cycles also. Plus you don’t see “Super rinse” and “Higher water level” options on machines any more.
My reconditioned Bosch WFF2000 (4 rinses and higher water level option) has cleared up my dermatitis and eczema, it shows machines from 12 years ago do rinse properly. This machine uses about 100 litres per cycle. My Mums Siltal washing machine uses 49 litres per cycle, you cannot even see the water in her machine, not even on rinse, I am not slating this machine 10-15 loads a week, 8 years old and still giong strong!!
Hope this helps you,
All the best
Oliver.
Use Ecover liquid, only a small amount. If that’s no good then I suggest that when the cycle has finished you do another wash without any detergent – on my machine there is a “refreshing wash” cycle.
Carbon-Careful?
I have tried Ecover liquid and other supposebly natural alternatives to main-stream washing powders and found them to be as useful as a snooze button on a smoke alarm!!!!
I have to use skin ointments and creams and Ecover etc. does not remove them from my clothing, also if not properly rinsed out they still irritate my skin even non-bio! Also natural alternetives do not contain bleach which cause bacteria growth in you towels making them smell, also cause black slime in your washing machine. Unless run your machine empty regulally on a 95 degree wash.
I use Ariel biological powder which does remove the skin treatments very well even with “Short wash” pressed in on my machine, so long as it is properly rinsed out it is OK. I have tried all detergents and am allergic to the lot you name it I’ve tried it!!
Like I have said before washing machines using less water is a selling point, it has no effect on electricity usage what so ever, I do not care about the environment, I love my water guzzling Bosch to bits as it rinses perfectly well, and has cleared my dermatitis and eczema. The only point to saving water is if you are on a water meter, which we are. So what is more important saving water for a country that rains most of the time or not itching like a flea bitten cat? You decide!!
All the best
Oliver Shaw.
Using eco liquid, and not much, may help rinsing issues but unfortunately a consequence can be a build up of sludge and grease which can ruin a washing machine – Washing machine smells – causes of grease, slime and black mould inside washing machines
If this happens use normal detergent with bleaching agents such as detergent for whites on a boil wash once a month although that isn’t very “eco”. However, there’s not much point being environmentally friendly if it shortens the life of the washing machine or causes breakdowns.
Which? have done extensive tests on washing machine detergents and last time I checked the eco ones didn’t do too well although they said they were OK for lightly soiled laundry. I suggest if people are keen to be environmentally friendly they should at least try some for lightly soiled items though not necessarily to replace normal detergent Eco friendly (green) detergents
I’ve just realised something…
Compare laundry detergent with dishwasher detergent and you notice one major difference: dishwasher detergent does not foam (or if it does, it’s a very very small amount), compared to laundry detergent which foams excessively if you use slightly too much and/or wash too few items.
Nearly all new washing machines don’t rinse properly and I believe the reason is not JUST down to less water being used during rinsing and fewer rinse cycles. I reckon laundry detergent should be re-developed to rinse off fabrics easier and not create any foam. If they can already make dishwasher detergent to not foam excessively, why not do the same with laundry detergent?
Talking of dishwasher detergent, if new dishwashers continue to use less and less water and the detergent remains on our crockery, would that cause a health hazard? New washing machines are a health hazard to people with sensitive skin, as you can read above!
Frustrated with Technology:
Foam does nothing in laundry detergent unless heavily soap based, it is there for the consumer only, so leaving it out would have no effect on rinsing, only to the eye. The chemicals that irritate our skin are still there eg. enzymes, surfactants etc. Foam hinders the cleaning power of detergents by cushioning fabrics and preventing the weave of the fabric openning up properly due to it restricting movement.
Another big difference between the two detergents are laundry detergent contains OXYGEN based bleaching agents whereas dishwasher detergent contains CHLORINE based bleaching agents such as Domestos etc. also would remove colour from coloured clothing!!
As for dishwashers not rinsing properly, don’t worry detergent is removed from crockery very easily. Crockery does not absorb detergent like fabrics do. Dishwashers rinse more than you think, ours does two on Economy 50 and three on Intensive 65 (good job I kept the manual for that one!!!). There is no trace of detergent left on anything even after Economy wash.
There is deffinatley a niche in the market for someone to invent a washing machine and washer-drier that rinses properley with a choice of water levels say 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, up the door on wash and rinse also make it have a choice on the number of rinses say ranging from two to five. “Shaw’s Good Old Washer Co.” sounds good don’t you think!!This way people have a choice of how they want their laundry rinsing and washing. But make the default settings the current low water usages so it would sell and could also be A rated, the last bit suggested by Andy Trigg (Washerhelp), comment 48. Also make these machines mechanically timed as solid state timers are unreliable, often why modern washing machines break down!!
All of our washing machines that have lasted well have been mechanical, whereas the solid state broken down within two years!! We like ‘em simple up ere in Yorkshire don’t we Andy!!
All the Best
Oliver Shaw.
Oliver: Yes I agree, as far as I’m aware the suds in washing machine detergent are put there mostly for show. In fact suds inhibit washing because they cushion the laundry and reduce the effects of rubbing against each other, which is an essential part of washing. Therefore if too many soapsuds are introduced you will get less efficient washing.
My understanding is that a cynical public do not like detergent which doesn’t contain soapsuds and apparently do not believe it is washing properly unless there are suds. This may well be true but it could easily be dealt with if detergent manufacturers wanted to. It would be very easy for them to get across the message that you don’t need soapsuds. However, whether soapsuds are a substantial part of the rinsing problem or not I am not so sure.
Regarding your comment on solid-state timers being unreliable, they replaced mechanical timers years ago under the flag of being much more reliable. Clearly a solid-state controller should be much more reliable as there are no moving parts but in practice if they are not well designed or cheap components are used they can be unreliable. In some of the cheaper makes they can not only commonly fail but are so expensive when they do that they often write the machine off. However, we will never go back to mechanical timers because all they can do is switch mechanical switches on and off in a linear fashion. Today’s washing machines require computer program software to run and to monitor during wash. If they are made properly they should be more reliable than the mechanical timer.
Andy:
A point that I forgot to mention, alot of washing machines suds-lock during the intermediate spins these days. Meaning that detergent is not pumping away properly and carrying through to the next rinse. However only modern machines seem to do this, and less rinse cycles, often two is the norm means even worse rinsing.
My therory on this is not enough water in the rinse phase to dilute the detergent properly and spin it away, also modern machines spin very fast during the rinses about 800-to 1600rpm, whereas older machines do about 300-400rpm. None of our old machines suds-locked. The Siltal is a bugger for that, its rinsing is bad anyway but even worse because of it suds-locking. I have heard of Mieles doing this, not what you expect from the top quality end is it? I would never ever have a Miele as the rinsing is so poor, shame really as I always fancied one. Oh well at least I can keep my old reliable Bosch going!!
All the Best
Oliver.
Oliver: I’ve not heard of any problems with suds locking. As the machines are specifically designed to spin with water in during wash and spin to force water and detergent through the fabric it shouldn’t be an issue. Are you sure you don’t have a partially blocked filter or a partial obstruction in the drain hose or pump chamber that’s reducing how fast the water pumps away? That could cause such problems.
Andy,
These machines are not blocked, I have already had them in bits! The problem is instead of starting to spin slowly, they are going up to about 650rpm straight away, meaning the pump cannot cope. So it foams up the detergent and then will not go it just throws it down the door and around the tank until it starts filling for the next rinse!
My old Bosch starts spinning at about 100rpm and takes it from there up to about 400rpm, this machine never suds locks.
All the best
Oliver
Hello Oliver. On wash the spin is to force the detergent through the laundry, it shouldn’t energise the pump it should just throw all the water about and soap suds will be very evident. Then it should continue with the wash. Hope we are talking about the same thing.
Hi Andy
I mean the intermediate spins ie. between the rinses to supposably clear the water from the load from the previous rinse!
This is the programme sequence if it helps….
Wash – intermediate spin – rinse – int.spin – rinse – int.spin – rinse-int.spin – rinse – final spin.
All the best
Oliver.
Hi Oliver / Andy and all readers.
Thanks for referring me to this board Oliver: most interesting.
This suds-locking things is def for real Andy: my LG is a real bugger for it.
In the case of the LG the problem is caused by a combination of factors:
1. in the wash phase of the cycle the duration is excessive (about an hour on most programmes) and the agitation is very vigorous (which is good). This means that vast amounts of foam are created on every wash.
2. When the wash ends the LG spins (it does NOT spin at all with water in as you suggest many modern ones do) but it spins before any rinses start. This results in a very unpleasant sound and you can hear the motor labouring greatly and the drum slowing down as huge white tides of foam flow down the door.
3. when the rinses start there is, as I have so often moaned about on the hot fill board, insufficient water, so the rinses turn into 2nd, 3rd and 4th wash phases with the soap that’s left.
I get round this quite easily though – as mentioned in a post higher up this board I run water into the soap drawer if I am around to do so, and I do this on the first rinse or sometimes even at the wash phase (like the old “dilution rinse” that Hoover’s used to have). If I am not likely to be around when the rinses start I Select “rinse ++” which on the LG gets water up to about 1/4 up the door and also heats up all the rinses to 30 degrees to help dissolve the detergent better. I have to say that this is pretty good rinsing, but the drawback is time (and energy use). On a 60 degree white wash the standard time is 2h12m, but with Rinse++ selected it’s 3h50m.
Oliver – mum has a Miele Prestige PLus and with the “water plus” selected it washes in water that just reaches the bottom of the door glass, does a dilution rinse (adds water to the wash water up to 1/3 up the door) and then does all it’s rinses 1/3 way up the door too. Mum had a Hoover Electron 1100 (same as mine) before that – we bought hem at the same time when I first left home in 1983 and mum’s finally died 2 years ago, mine last July. Both of us dislike the new machines we have but Hoover are now so unreliable that we decided not to get them again. However, since mum started using the “water plus” she says the Miele is as good as the old Hoover except that it only takes cold water so it costs more to run. If your Bosch ever packs up completely you might like to reconsider Miele for a model with “water plus”.
Dave
I’m aware of the “water plus” feature, but have heard that Mieles also suds lock, actually from what I’ve found out near enough all modern machines do it. Also have read copies of instruction manuals for Mieles and they only do 2 rinses, my Bosch does 4.
Washers just arn’t as good as they used to be!!
On the Easy-care (synthetic) cycles my Bosch uses the dilution rinsing so as to avoid excessive creasing to the fabrics. The Bosch rinses absolutley perfecly so long as “Higher water level” is selected.
The worst rinsing I have come across is on a very reliable Siltal integral washer, my mums to be precise, the quality is brilliant but the rinsing that famous Yorkshire word sh1te!!!
I know a good engineer that should be able to keep the Bosch running for some time yet, aprenticed by a nice fella at Yeadon!
HTH
Oliver
PS. Post for you in Hot valve blog!!
It seems I was talking about something different due to misinterpreting the “intermediate spins” phrase. I thought it was referring to the spins during wash and rinse that some machines do with the water still inside. In the old days that would only happen if something went wrong but these days it’s used to force water through the laundry.
Andy
I was unaware that modern machines spun with water and or detergent in them to aid cleaning. Sounds like a stupid idea as that really will fill the drum and tank with huge torrants of foam, and that WILL decrease rinse efficiency. No wonder you was unsure what I mean’t by intermediate spins!!
This sounds really bad coming from a 20 year old but I preferred the way things used to be not the way they are now! Everytime they supposably redesign the humble washing machine I am always sceptical of what has happened. Lets face they are deffinatley not improving them, quite the reverse infact!!
I am deffinatley going to hang on to my Bosch forever if possible it may look old fashioned but it does a far superior job to the modern machines, I just can’t begin to tell people how good it is compared the new “improved” washers!!
HTH
Oliver
An alternative to laundry detergent already exists and is claimed to work equally well. I’m talking about the Stainz r out laundry sheets. The makers say these are made from natural ingredients and also claim they can replace conventional laundry detergent.
I’m wondering if products like this are the way forward? Do the ingredients rinse out of your clothes easier than detergent? Yes they are expensive, but if they clean properly and rinse away easily, maybe other manufacturers will make them?
Oliver,
the recon Bosch sounds interesting, but I can’t find anyone selling them. Could you say where you got it?
David,
My Bosch WFF2000 was bought at the “Washer Shop” in Halifax West Yorkshire!! Got it for 145 with a 12 month warranty and free delivery. Be wary of the new Bosch machines though as the rinsing is rubbish, look for one about 12-15 years old if possible, other option Hotpoint of similar age they were built properly back then!
WhatMatters – Unless these products contain any sort of bleach they will shorten the life of the washing machine-inparticular the drum spider. To counteract this you will be doing a hell of a lot of maintenance washes with ORDINARY bleach containing powder.
HTH
Oliver
Making an effort to be environmentally friendly is a good thing. But now it’s doing the reverse!!
In this page you read that people are being forced to fill their washing machines with extra water to rinse properly which defeats the purpose of saving water. If washing machines rinsed properly without using excessive amounts of water you achieve the goal of being environmentally friendly. On the other hand, if you use so little water to be environmentally friendly that people end up filling their washers with too much water for a decent rinse, again you defeat the purpose.
I’ve heard of people having problems with their toilets blocking because they don’t use enough water to flush, so they have to flush more than once and end up using more water than they were meant to save!
If we want products to work properly and be environmentally friendly at the same time, manufacturers need to thoroughly test them in the real world. Also appliances, cars etc need to be more reliable so you don’t have to dispose of them so often. I don’t see many environmentally friendly manufacturers making their products as reliable as they were 30 years ago.
WhatMatters:
Could’t agree more!
Being environmentally friendly (oh it pains me to write that) is not just about what an appliance consumes but how it was made, transported etc. It would have less inpact for a washer to do 4 rinses 1/3 up the door and it last for 26 years ( Daves Hoover Electron for instance), Than a cheap rubbish Merloni (Indesit/Hotpoint etc) rinse twice with 2″ of water in the drum and it only last 12 months!!
Its not as if water does not get replenished often enough, I mean it must rain 13 out of the 12 months we get in a year! Plus we pay enough for it with water meters and such like.
I’ve never heard of the toilet problem, but very interesting all the same, will ask people I know who have recently had their bathrooms refit to see if it a major problem! I know I’m sad!!!!!!
HTH
Oliver
I think nearly everyone who reads the comments will agree that not using enough water does more harm than good.
The problem about toilets not flushing properly is due to people using water saving devices such as the Hippo water saver in older toilets. I’m sure most new toilets are better designed, but as with any new development there are often pitfalls eg using less water in washing machines = poor rinsing! They even admit on the Hippo water saver website not to use the water saving device in toilets installed after 2001, what does that tell you?!
If we are not allowed to have washing machines use proper levels of water to rinse away all detergent, will they tell us to use vinegar instead of detergent? It’s getting ridiculous now, we’ve never had taps run dry because people use too much water.
Where can i buy High efficiency front loading detergent from within the UK that actually cleans and works? I use SA8 by Amway but get fed up of having to order it through a distributor. Persil, Ariel, Surf and all the others just foam too much
WhatMatters,
Ah, see what you mean, we have the 6 litre (water efficient) toilets and seem to have no trouble, flush well infact. I remember the Hippo water device, another usless sales tactic trying to get peoples gullable side!
Like you say water will NOT run dry it rains too much!
I’ve heard of people putting white vinegar in the conditioner compartment so it goes in to the last rinse saying it kills the detergent, it must smell bloody awful, bedding humming of vinegar and towels what a pleasent thought!
Simon:
The HE detergents such as Tide HD are just like Ariel, surf etc. They have a different name because in America there is two types of washer, Top-loading high water use that uses a high sudsing detergent and front and top loading HE machines that us low sudsing detergent eg the Tide HD. All our detergents such as Ariel are low sudsing and designed to work in low suds front loading machines.
All the best,
HTH,
Oliver
Oliver, I’ve been researching using white (clear) vinegar in washing machines. Many websites with information on white vinegar and laundry claim that it really does neutralise the detergent (vinegar is acid and detergent is alkali). On one website, it says the smell of vinegar disappears when the clothes dry.
To the lady who wrote comment #16: filling up the washing machine with extra rinsing water about 1/3 up the door (when your husband is away from home) should do the trick. Maybe try the vinegar idea too? Doing this should hopefully make his eczema clear up after a few months. Good luck. :)
Hi Whatmatters,
I’m aware of the chemistry, I’m in the right indusry for that!!!
I have heard of it working, but if washing machines were made properly in the first place you should not need to add vineger! Aluminium does not like acidity and thats what the drum spider is made of, plus expensive bit to replace!
To comment 16, High level rinsing and vinegar behind your husbands back, why not come clean (no pun intended), you wern’t to know when you bought the machine, after all you would expect Miele to rinse perfectly, especially at them prices!!
HTH
Oliver.
Where can I buy a Hotpoint top loader second hand? Model numbers Electronic De Luxe 9600, 9604 and 9605? The hotpoint wma30 is absolutely rubbish at rinsing unless i use ecover liquid. However i need to use bio as cleans better. Even a twin tub would be better than the modern rubbish we have no. Failing that I suppose it will have to be an Amercican top loading washing machine. Any recommendations greatly appreciated.
Simon,
The only place I could think of getting a second hand washing machine is a back street retailler, such as our local one in Halifax called the “Washer Shop”. Any particular reason you want a top loader? The old front loaders rinse perfectly well such as a Bosch WFF2000, Servis Quartz, Hoover Electron, Old Hotpoints. Well anything from just before 1992 should put water half way up the door to rinse and would usually do 4 on the cotton cycles, sometimes 5 such as old AEG’s (very hard to come by though).
My Bosch dates from about 1996 and does 4 rinses with water a third up the door for each.
American top loaders use water in excess, also most of them now are high efficiency and people complain about the rinsing just as we do about our energy efficient models. Also American top loader spin very slowly about 650rpm and use a hell of alot of elecrticity as there is so much water to heat and they are rated “G” for wash, so they do not wash as well as the frontload machines either! You are probably better off with a second hand front load machine than a new top loader IMHO.
Twin tubs are another issue you will not find a good one from the 70s or 80s unless you know someone that has one and are willing to part with it for cash! There are a few new ones about but they are cheap Chinese made jobs (mainly plastic), called a Thompson I think, that will not last. They are for VERY light usage indeed. I havn’t seen a twin tub machine round here for donkeys years!
HTH
Oliver.
Thanks Oliver been really helpful. Ill even try ebay lol.
Simon,
Your welcome!
Oliver.
Our Hotpoint WML540(G) rinses perfectly with any load, I did an overloaded towels wash after being on holiday approx. 7 or 8kg of bath towels, bath sheets, hand towels etc. and I used the Cottons+ 60+ programme (2 hours). and even after a sudslock in the first spin, the final rinse water was almost clear.
I think the Hotpoint washer have the best way of rinsing, which is slow tumbles in low water level then very fast tumbles in high water level, which in our machine fills almost half way up the door!
Even if the Mini Load option has been selected (which reduces wash & rinse time aswell as rinse water) the rinse is just as good, even without softner (I don’t use softner on towels).
So yes I do think there is an issue with rinsing in some machines but definitely not in the new Hotpoint WML range.
Hi Gary,
That doesn’t sound quite right, a modern Hotpoint is designed to fill to the bottom of the door glass on the rinses not half way up the door. The pressure switch must be slightly out of adjustment, although this is NOT a bad thing. I had a Hotpoint WF530T for 2.5 years and the rinsing was awful even with extra rinse pressed, but the water never went beyond the bottom of the door glass. Also sudslocked on ALL intermediate spins. There again I do not rate any Merloni product, well not now anyway!!!
HTH,
Oliver.
Hi Oliver,
Well it only seems to fill nearly that high in the Fast Wash 60C cycle since I overload it, but in the cottons+ 60C it is only just under that. The 1000rpm interm. spins between the rinses help a lot with the rinsing in the Cotton’s programmes otherwise I think rinsing would be poor. Yeah I was told the pressure switch had gone dodgy by people on YouTube (HooverAC110 is my channel). I just think that the rinsing is much better than in my old Hoover Performa AC110 as you couldn’t even see the water! but still it did 4/5 rinses in cottons!
I’m surprised you have trouble with your Hotpoint rinsing as I know others with Hotpoint’s an they never say the rinses is terrible, but I know how it is with skin problems as I have a slight one too, allergic to some detergents and because our previous washer did so many rinses it makes me use Extra Rinse all the time.
Thanks for commenting back to me :)
Gary
Dear Washerhelp
I have ordered a Miele WT2670 1600rpm washer dryer which is coming next week and am looking forward to it. I don’t suffer with any allergies or skin conditions so the rinsing shouldn’t be an issue. Although I may put Water Plus on if I feel that it doesn’t have enough water and I won’t be having washes which are too sudsy. Detergents such as Ariel Excel Gel can get very sudsy iof too much is used. I discovered this in my Hotpoint WD42O washer dryer. If you know of the rinse water levels then please let me know as it would be very good to be aware of this before the machine arrives. Like I said above the machine is due for delivery on 28th August.
And could you or someone else please tell me about its tumbles that it does as I would like to know. I am thinking that the tumbles are 13/2 for the cottons programme but could also be the same on other programmes. I think that good and fast tumbling can help improve wash and rinse performance. Please could you help. Many thanks.
Hi Gary,
No problem. Thats right it should only fill that high on fast wash 60 and super wash 60, but only on those 2 programmes the rest should just touch the bottom of the door, the synthetic cycles use a touch more, sorry I should have been more explicit! I don’t have the Hotpoint any more, got a reconditioned Bosch. The intermediate spins should be 800rpm on cottons and 500rpm on synthetics and fast wash 60.
Laura Mitchell
Re: tumbles.
If it tumbles too fast the washing will not fall correctly in the drum and will just cling to the outside thus providing poor wash performance. Also tumbling too fast on rinses will whip up a hell of alot of foam, Hotpoint machines do this and then cannot spin it away properly. So the balance has to be right, Bosch from 15 years ago and IAR Siltal from 8 years ago seem to have it perfect, cannot comment on Miele, never owned one (or ever will) or had me hands on one!
HTH,
Oliver.
Hi again Oliver :D
Ah cool yes thought Fast Wash 60C rinses should be high as they are only quick and as for Super Wash 60C well my machine doesn’t have it. The new Hotpoints don’t have that programme anymore. The synthetics programme is a fair bit below the fast wash 60C rinse water level on mind which is good too. Shame you don’t have the Hottie anymore :( but the reconditioned Bosch sounds great, what model is it :) infact I know someone on YouTube which has a recondtioned Bosch I think. You might not know me from there though, my account is HooverAC110. As for the intermediate spin speeds well Hotpoint have changed the Cottons to 1000rpm and the Synthetics 600rpm. Fast wash 60C is a little faster at 800rpm, this is only between the rinses though because on all programmes (which do spin after the wash) are all at 600rpm.
Thanks again :D sorry for the delay though :S
Gary
Hi Gary,
My Bosch is a WFF2000, about 15 years old or so. Sorry mate not me on YouTube, never been on that site in my life!! It would appear they have changed Hotpoint machines yet again, they are consantly peeing around with them and making them even MORE unrelaible. Thats why I haven’t got it anymore. It never washed that well anyway, never as good as my Mums IAR Siltal (8 years old), whereas the Bosch does!
They do keep increasing the spin speeds on the Indesit based machines to try to get a better rinse but all they are doing is wearing everything out alot quicker, and doing very little for rinsing. After about 800rpm the extraction rate tales off some what, the difference between 800rpm and 1000rpm is a thimble full of water! The difference between 1000rpm and 2000rpm is 4 table spoons full of water, so not worth the bother! The Bosch spins at 400rpm after the wash and between the rinses for about a minute, but uses alot of water so gives a perfect rinse on any load as it does 4 rinses 1/3 up the door, and it NEVER sudslocks, it would appear all modern machines do this.
All the best,
Oliver.
Well, I had 2 Hoover washing machines that, between the two of them, lasted over 27 years. No problem whatsoever with smell or grey slime. Didn’t even know it could be a problem.
My new machine is a Bosch and grey slime is a mega problem, though I haven’t changed my habits at all. I don’t use fabric conditioner, don’t add too much powder (I am mean if anything) and do the occasional 60 deg wash. I guess it must be the poor rinsing that is to blame.
So, does anyone know if the new Hoover machines have developed this problem? Have they sacrificed the rinse to be eco-friendly?
I would put up with the noise (if they are still noisy), anything to escape the grey slime. I only changed to Bosch because the Hoovers were noisy and my Bosch dishwasher lasted 20 years. I just hope this machine doesn’t last 20 years.
Hi Cath,
This sounds as if you are not using the correct amount of detergent. Are you using a bleach containing powder, eg. not a colour friendly type? Also are you doing alot of low temperature washing, as this will cause slime also.
To help remove the slime select a 90/95 wash with bleach containing powder, such as Ariel biological (using the correct amount of course). Do not use liquid or colour powder as none will contain bleach. This is called a maintainence wash and should be carried out monthly. If it is really bad using a specialist washer cleaner such as “Maytag Affresh” will also reduce the slime, it is avaliable at the 4washerhelp link in the left hand list at the top of the page.
The lower water level on the wash phase is not going to help with slime build up, and as you say the lack of water in the rinsing cycle does not flush the machine through properly. If this machine has “Aqua plus” it may be worth while having it constantly selected.
I also have a Bosch (15 year old) and have no trouble with slime but I always wash at 60 and regulally do a maintainence wash.
Sadly your Bosch may last a few years they are still built quite well, though not as well as they used to be. Also Hoover will have reduced water in the rinse to be eco-friendly, all manufacterers have. No modern machine will rinse like the old ones did!
HTH,
Oliver.
Our 21 year old Hotpoint 96700 Top Loader has just expired having given no previous trouble at any time in it’s long life. The repair man says the gearbox may have seized and of course these are now obsolete. In our opinion this is a superb machine of which this is the third we have purchased. They have all lasted into double figures. Nothing else washes as white or rinses as clean. My wife was a chronic eczema sufferer and these machines have played their part in her relief from allergies. Does anyone know where a replacement gearbox or machine may be found? Any of the original Hotpoint Top Loaders will be acceptable.
Hi David,
The gear box has been obsolete for sometime now, unless there are any kicking around in back street retailers, but I wouldn’t have thought so, but all is not lost…..
Try taking the gear box to a car garage and see if they can repair it. This is a shot in the dark but well worth a try! Another option is to get a specialist to make you a new one, it can be done but will be expensive, there isn’t that much inside so making a copy shouldn’t be too hard!
As regards buying a Hotpoint top loader, I haven’t seen one in 20 years! Nor have I seen a reconditioned one either, but if I come across one I will let you know via this site, but don’t hold too much hope out though!!
HTH,
Oliver.
There is a simple way to get more water into the drum for better rinsing.Every washing machine contains a water level transducer to which are connected tubes from the drum.When the water reaches a certain level in the drum,the pressure transducer activates and sends a signal to the electronics to close the water inlet valve.
However there are ‘adjustable tuning slugs’ on the pressure transducer so that the level of water can be adjusted.I experimented on a Hotpoint and manage to get the drum completely full of water!.So careful how you make adjustments.
I am a retired electronics engineer and would love to design a washing machine complete with PID temperature control,brushless motor, etc etc.but I’m afraid the cost would be prohibitive.
Sounds good Richard (comment 96). Most of us have no idea how to alter the “adjustable tuning slugs”. I would be too scared to take the lid off my washing machine!
Making a video on how to do this and uploading it to youtube might help, but explained in plain English.
One trick that most of us could try on modern washing machines is to take advantage of the pre-wash. Add your powder or liquid detergent directly in the drum and a tablespoon of soda crystals in the “main” compartment of the soap drawer (not the pre-wash compartment). The pre-wash will allow the clothes to soak up the detergent solution. After the pre-wash finishes, the machine will pump out the water and may perform a short spin. On the main cycle (at the temperature you chosen), the clothes will still have plenty of detergent absorbed and the main wash water will facilitate later rinsing. Pressing the “extra rinse” button or whatever it’s called on your machine will also help when you try this pre-wash experiment. I’ve only tried this once, so don’t know if it affects cleaning performance.
Note that on old washing machines the pre-wash would be followed by a boil wash, so check carefully that your machine won’t boil your laundry to death!
It’s a shame that we have to resort to drastic measures to achieve proper rinsing. If we don’t, our clothes will still contain detergent and this causes no end of trouble. I sometimes wonder, after reading these comments, if allergy sufferers have no idea their condition can be traced to the washing machine not rinsing properly?
Hi Richard and Whatmatters,
I’ve heard of this before and is a viable option, but if an incorrect adjustment is made it could cause a serious flood. Which may not be covered be home insurance as it would be the homeowners fault. So I would say extreme caution is needed.
However I do agree with what you both say, I am very tempted (and have been for a long time) to adjust the pressure switch on my Mums Siltal as rinsing is so bad.
In all fairness selecting a prewash and adding nothing or soda crystals to the main wash probably will affect cleaning drastically as the main wash will ineffect be the first rinse. There will be hardly anything in the main wash to facillitate cleaning, it may work on light soil only though? Never tried this but please do come back with your experience Whatmatters.
I have found when it comes to laundry soda crystals are just plain snake oil! They do not work as they say, plus prolonged use may damsge the aluminium drum spider in your washing machine.
All the best,
HTH,
Oliver.
Oliver
The pre-wash “trick” seems to work and during the main wash programme I still notice plenty of suds. If you put slightly too much detergent in or don’t put enough laundry in the drum my machine is prone to foaming too much. Not tried this with stained laundry, but you have to treat stains before washing anyway. If anyone copies this “trick” (comment 97) and finds it cleans well and improves rinsing (or not), I would be keen to find out.
I’ve noticed rinsing is better and I’ve not had to fill the machine with extra water during the rinses, but have enable the “extra rinse” option every time I use the machine.
I know some people who have used soda crystals for years and never had any problems. The packet would not say you could use them in washing machines if they were known to cause damage. I know they soften water and are well known for removing grease and oil stains. There is a page on this site about soda crystals and washing machines:
http://www.whitegoodshelp.co.uk/wordpress/soda-crystals-and-washing-machines/
Could you make a video on youtube on how to adjust pressure switches for higher water levels, in Plain English? It would be wise to warn viewers of the risks involved lol!!
Cheers.
Hi Folks,
Many of you will have seen my regular posts on the Hot Water Valve boards (both of them) and will know about my LG washer.
Not having actually read much on this board until Oliver pointed out to Michelle on the “I want a machine with a hot valve” board that her post on Rinsing should have been on here, I was unaware 3 days ago, when I fiddled with my LG’s pressure switch, of the post a bit further up this board about the “adjustable tuning slugs”.
That aside, I have made 2 interesting discoveries about my LG WM1444TDS washer, which may be of use to anyone else with thai machine and infuriated by it’s diabolical rinsing.
Discovery number 1 was that the “Duvet” cycle, which I always use to fill the machine up as it uses the pressure switch not the stupid and useless “fuzzy logic” sensors and controls to supposedly detect when the laundry is properly wet, has only TWO rinses if left to run right through.
Discovery number 2 was that, having adjusted the pressure switch, to get rinse water to come 1/4 up the door glass, I can now wash non-fast coloureds (40 degree wash) on “Duvet” and not only does it wash in water that comes 1/4 of the way up the glass, but it also rinses in the same level of water and, surprise surprise, it gets the washing pretty much soap free (almost as good as the 26 year old Hoover I used to have) in just TWO rinses.
The only down side to this is that I still have to switch back to cottons to get a 60 degree wash, which means that the rinses, although they now fill up to 1/4 up the door, are all interspersed by spins which take positively eons to start due to “balancing” so the cycle takes hours as always.
Interestingly the Duvet wash doesn’t seem to bother with “balancing” but just spins and be b*ggered to the noise.
I’m very pleased by this development, but must point out to anyone with this (or any other) machine and thinking of making the same adjustment that it will undoubtedly invalidate your warranty, so don’t do it unless you are prepared to accept that fact.
I forgot to mention something that’s really obvious… over 2/3′s of our planet Earth is WATER. In fact, 71% of the Earth’s surface is covered by water (look on Wikipedia for water, it currently says 71%). Also the oceans are miles deep! I’m sure many people know about the “water cycle” too. In plain English: water never disappears, it comes back!
So why are we being told off for using “too much” water? Really, why? Washing machines need LOTS of water to rinse all of the detergent out of fabrics, which they did fine before the do-gooders told the washing machine manufacturers to use less water.
You never heard of so many cases of allergies years ago, nowadays most people are allergic to something! It’s obvious there’s a correlation – less water in rinsing = more allergies!
Okay, the MAIN wash doesn’t need as much water because it’s being heated, obviously more water being heated uses more electricity. But during the rinse cycles the extra water uses no more energy because it doesn’t get heated.
I can keep mentioning obvious things forever, but the last one: I don’t remember old washing machines having an “extra rinse” button, because they rinsed properly anyway. Am I right in saying that old (1970′s and 1980′s) washing machines did not have options for rinsing better?
That is totally Correct!
Oliver.
Has anyone tried Amway SA8 laundry detergent and if so do they think it is good? I have found you need to wash at 50C to get stains out even stains like mud whereas Persil or Ariel get mus out at 30C or 40C.
Also I have noticed some of my clothes have shrunk in the wash lately but I do not why. They have been put on the appropriate programme and spin cycle. Could detergents cause shrinkage?