I’ve long since been a fan of the build quality of Miele washing machines and have written extensively about them as well as personally recommending them. My own washing machine is a Miele and it’s great. They are one of the best washing machines available regarding build quality and design. They are designed to last at least 20 years and should last much longer than cheaper washing machines. Unfortunately though, the cost of some parts and lack of repairer competition means certain repairs can be so expensive that some are falling victim to the same “beyond economic repair” issue that’s all too common amongst much cheaper washing machines.
I have always built into my recommendations the caveat that if buying one you should be prepared to accept that many independent washing machine repairers do not repair them because there’s little demand for Miele repairs in their area, or because technical information is difficult to get and they can’t get a proper trade discount on their spare parts. Therefore you need to be prepared to use Miele’s own engineers or dealers. The problem with this is that the lack of healthy competition means you may pay significantly higher labour costs, particularly on a minor repair where a trusted local engineer may have labour charges 50% less than Miele.
Independent engineers can’t easily get technical information on error codes and Miele don’t appear to give any reasonable trade discount on spares – the profit on which independent engineers rely. This means effectively there is no competition for Miele repairs.
What does this mean?
If you are happy, or even prefer to use only Miele engineers or dealers for any future repair this issue isn’t a concern. If you prefer to use a trusted local independent repairer or even a large independent repair company you should be aware that you may have no choice.
It should be noted that other manufacturers are also increasingly making it difficult for independent repairers by withholding or restricting error code explanations and technical information, and requiring special diagnostic equipment. (Independent companies often come out best in Which? surveys for customer service and customer satisfaction).
Do Miele appliances really last 20 years?
Miele make extremely high quality washing machines compared to most of their competition. As a result they should be much more reliable than a normal washing machine and last longer too. However, Miele washing machines still break down. The theory is that by investing more money in a Miele appliance it should work out cheaper in the long run than buying cheaper brands, which may need repairing and/or replacing much more often.
However, recent evidence is emerging that increasing repair prices – due in part to lack of competition and in greater part to extremely high spare parts prices – means some Miele appliances are being scrapped by their customers long before their designed for 20 years life span (see comments below) because the price quoted for repair by Miele is so high. This is a very worrying development and undermines their “forever better” slogan and ethos.
For an appliance to last 20 years it needs to be made to a very high quality standard – but it must also be economically viable to repair it when it breaks down. It doesn’t matter if an appliance is designed to last 100 years, it will only last until it’s first serious breakdown if it is too expensive to repair! Miele need to address this serious issue. Their appliances cost a lot more than a normal appliance and one of the main justifications for this price is that it will last a lot longer. If it doesn’t – most people would consider it was a bad purchase and will avoid Miele in the future.
This is a very disappointing development, and I would be very interested to know of the results of any legal challenge to Miele on this matter. I’m sure I remember reading recently that it is no longer necessary to use main dealers for servicing cars to keep up their warranty. This seems to go directly against moves made to protect consumers from restrictive trade practices. Is there anybody from ‘Which?’ reading who can clarify the position here?
This sort of thing was rife in the car industry until independent repairers got together and challenged it in court although the issue was more to do with independent garages wanting to deal with repairs under warranty which is different to just wanting to be able to fix something once out of warranty. It was ruled illegal and car manufacturers were forced to provide adequate technical information and sell specialist tools and equipment to independent repairers.
So far no such similar action has been organised in the white goods industry. Ultimately it has to be illegal to protect a product you manufacturer to such an extent that only yourself or your hand picked dealers can repair it. If that’s not restriction of trade I don’t know what is. However, this is possibly only a thin end of wedge situation at the moment.
I fully understand how a high quality manufacturer would want to try and control the standard of engineers repairing their product and would hate to assist potential cowboys to mess with their pride and joy but at the end of the day their customers deserve the option and right to let anyone they choose to repair their washing machine – including carrying out diy repairs if willing and able.
There are many reputable independent repairers who would charge £20, £30 or even £40 less labour to repair many straight forward faults but if by design many faults trigger an error code and disable the machine then without the means to reset the error code the customer would be forced to pay the manufacturer.
I do not have full details but hope people – especially engineers can add comments to clarify this situation fully.
Miele are serviced by reputable dealers with trained engineers. fact! Mine is serviced by a local reputable company.
Miele products are best bought from independents, not John Lewis.
The ISE range is not on sale at John Lewis; why promote it as an alternative ?
Mark: Not sure what your point is about Miele dealers and engineers. How reputable and trained they are isn’t in dispute. In fact I expect they are great and give excellent service. The problem is if consumers are forced to use them whether they want to or not. This would be restrictive practice and is not lawful as far as I am aware.
Your second statement is very sweeping and again, not sure what it means or how relevant it is to the topic. Miele products are best bought from whoever gives the best price and aftersales service. John Lewis have won many customer service awards by Which? and other consumer surveys, while independents generally beat manufacturers for quality, speed and value for money with regards to servicing in similar surveys. Independents however vary so much in standards it’s not possible to pit them all against one company.
The ISE range again is off topic and not even mentioned on this article John Lewis sell relatively few models compared to Currys and Comet etc. and they don’t even stock some makes of washing machine altogether. The fact that a washing machine isn’t sold at John Lewis doesn’t affect whether it’s a viable alternative or not. That’s decided by other factors.
There is nothing wrong with engineers specialising in brands, investing in training and putting parts on the shelf and then expecting that the manufacturer reciprocate some support for their commitment and investment is there?
You would not take a Mercedes to a Ford garage would you? or would you ??
Thats how manufacturers maintain the quality of service to their customers. The ones that care that is !
Why would anyone spend a moment of their time attending a training course if the unskilled and uninformed who do not put a penny into the industry are at liberty to operate not on a level playing field, but with all the advantages of no overheads, no stock, no training and a ‘the-only-thing-that-matters-is-the-price’ mentality?
Is it any wonder the industry has gone to the dogs? From my 45 years experience it is precisely because manufacturers have pretty much done what you suggest and acted without cause or concern for their brands or their integrity in pursuit of short term profits from a stack it high, sell it cheap; uncaring culture.
From your perspective it is ‘restrictive practices’ while to me and to many it is a commercially sound principle on which to manage your business.
Most of the brands that took the route you advocate are derided by all and sundry for shocking products and shocking after sales service. Now, as few brands with any integrity or care are left; you would have them throw in their lot with the great tide of white unmarked vans that make up the bulk of our service ‘industry’?
Lets hope Miele maintain the position that they have held since 1963 and look after what they have got and continue to care about their products and their dealers.
Gaining a toe hold in someone elses business by undercutting them is the easiest game in the world; any plank can do it. It does not mean that is the right way to run the industry for the benefit of customers. There is more to it than you present in your piece above.
You also failed to mention Miele’s 10 year warranty and the absence of any requirement for a charged visit throughout that period.
You are talking about dealers I presume, not independents. Many independents also specialise in brands, invest in training and putting parts on the shelf and they do not deserve to be barred from repairing washing machines and have their trade restricted because the manufacturer has deliberately stopped them doing so by denying them access to special codes. Dealers deserve to flourish but so do the good independent repairers.
Why not if the Ford garage had a good reputation and wanted to offer basic repairs and servicing at a more competitive cost than the Mercedes dealer? What about the thousands of local garages that have no dealership but can offer a good cheaper service on minor repairs or routine servicing? Most Mercedes owners would prefer to go to a dealer and that’s fine but it shouldn’t be compulsory. Also, many Mercedes cars are old and bought second, third or fourth hand by non-rich people who need a cheaper source of servicing.
By law, Mercedes are no longer allowed to withhold technical information to prevent anyone else carrying out repairs on their cars. This is to protect car owners from monopolistic charges and to protect legitimate repair businesses from being frozen out.
Manufacturers standards and quality of service can’t possibly be either enhanced or adversely affected by designing their products so only they and their dealers can repair them. They maintain their standards autonomously and are unaffected by independents. Their standards of service are their own affair and they live or die by them just like independents.
I understand your defensiveness but you are wrong to try to imply that all the thousands of people repairing washing machines that aren’t Miele dealers are some sort of underclass scum. I must admit I too was guilty at one time of thinking I was one of the elite few who were honest and good and all my competition were cowboys. For many years I held that belief but I now realise it was arrogant and unfair. Whilst there are plenty of cowboys there are also plenty of good, hard working and honest independents who have many satisfied customers and do a good job.
If an independent has no spares and doesn’t know what he’s doing his business is unlikely to flourish. However, if he’s one of the good guys his business should not be restricted by restrictive practices.
I respect your 45 years experience. The industry has gone to the dogs because of manufacturers making cheap disposable unrepairable washing machines and the public’s indifference and naive encouragement. This has nothing to do with the issue in discussion. In fact conversely if all the manufacturers had error codes that must be reset by the manufacturer then the culture you lament would be far worse.
Without the independents to repair cheap washing machines at a reasonable price then far more would be scrapped. Forcing consumers to use the manufacturer who charge on average £90 + parts to fix a £250 washing machine would do nothing but cause more to be scrapped. Few would consider paying £90 + parts to fix a £250 washer out of guarantee.
You describe restrictive practices perfectly. Restrict trade to a minority in order to increase profit to the detriment of competitive businesses and to the general public who are forced to pay much higher prices.
Again what you say there has nothing to do with not restricting who can repair their products. It’s their choice to start producing shocking products and shocking service and I share your contempt for them. If they additionally made it impossible for anyone but their own engineers (at £90 for the first half hour) to repair their rubbish how would that improve things? As I said earlier, that would only serve to make more of their rubbish unrepairable because repair prices would be even more “beyond economical repair”.
Agreed. I have nothing but respect for the quality of Miele products and service. However, I strongly believe they will flourish more if they help good independents to repair their products because it will bring repair charges down. Despite being so great, Miele are already starting to suffer from their washing machines becoming uneconomical to repair and I for one have started for the first time to consider whether they are worth recommending as highly as I have always done. I keep hearing reports of people being quoted repair prices so high that people are scrapping Miele washing machines that are nowhere near their expected and designed-for lifespan.
One engineer recently told me, “I just found it absolutely staggering that Miele’s under ten years old were being scrapped just because they need a simple part like a pump and, after it happens, guess what the customer will never buy again.”
I’ve also been told by another engineer that a customer of his scrapped a Miele at 5 years old because the main pcb failed and, “Miele quoted him about £500 to fix it”.
I’ve been told that Miele charge, “£99 plus VAT for the first 15 minutes and, I think, £20 or £25 per half hour thereafter”. If you add these prices to the extremely expensive spare parts and the fact that many Miele washing machines are only between £500 – £700 we are now at a stage where some Miele washing machines – despite being considerably superior in quality – are starting to be scrapped well before their expected lifespan simply because it can cost almost as much to repair (or unacceptably close) than to replace. This is very bad. Another repairer tells me a washer dryer door seal is £140 and an older model is priced at £160. Miele charging £99 for the first 15 mins plus £20 for next 15 mins + £140 = £249 to replace a door seal when they sell a new machine at £500 is little better than Indesit engineers charging £99 + £45 = £144 to repair a £260 washer. The Miele owner still has a better machine and better expectations of the machine keeping running but psychologically it’s still around half the cost of a replacement machine and psychologically there’s still the risk of an further fault meaning even more expensive repairs. This is why many will be tempted to scrap the machine unless repairs are more reasonable.
In my opinion Miele repair prices need to fall substantially or Miele will decline as people realise they’ve invested more money in a better machine but it’s still susceptible to being too expensive to repair (or at least be unacceptably close) when they were told it’s designed to last at least 20 years. Many may decide to go back to the cheaper brands next time. Miele washing machines could be designed to last 100 years but still be scrapped after 10 if it can’t be repaired at a reasonable cost and if the repair cost is too close to the replacement cost. In such a case they are little better than a Siemens or AEG purchase.
I accept that Miele are so well made that hopefully repairs will be fewer and many people will get many years before a breakdown. Many people also get 5 or 10 year warranty but even with a 10 year warranty Miele owners should expect another 10 years life for their washer but if the motor or pcb fails at 10 years + and it’s going to cost £500 or more to fix which is nearly as much as they paid for it many will decide it’s not worth repairing.
Miele can’t afford to have their washing machines scrapped well before 20 years due to them being too expensive to repair. Miele should be above that and need to be so much better than the other throwaway rubbish to survive in their niche.
Gaining a toe hold in someone else’s business by undercutting them is fundamentally how business has always worked and always will. It’s up to the market, and consumers to decide if the business doing it cheaper is best or is cheaper at an unacceptable cost in quality or not. Again this is straying onto wider topics and it’s only relevant to restrictive practices because it shows how you advocate restricting other businesses that are competing with you by methods such as the error code monopoly by Miele.
I didn’t mention it because it’s irrelevant. Once out of guarantee, how ever long or short that is (and 10 year warranties are only on restricted models and for restricted promotional periods and don’t cover wear and tear) a consumer has a legal and moral right to be able to choose who they want to repair it. They even have the right to be able to repair it themselves if they are capable.
If any manufacturer designs a product that forces a consumer to have to pay only themselves or their chosen dealers to carry out repairs they are restricting consumer choice in their own interests and restricting competing trade, which is not legal as far as I’m aware.
Then challenge the legality?
Unfortunately because the industry is unregulated neither a customer or Miele can choose between those engineers who are good and those who are bad.
By opening up your product knowledge to all and sundry, by definition, many customers will end up in the wrong hands and both the customer and Miele will suffer as a result.
Miele are what they are; the best there is. If they wish to maintain that position then managing all aspects of their business and keeping their machines out of the hands of the cowboys is quite proper.
My last Miele repair cost £50 labour plus VAT from my local independent who is a Miele dealer. I have no need of Miele and there manufacturers rates; which are no different to most manufacturers charges.
Anonymous: It’s called the free market. You are trying to justify restrictive practices outlawed by government by pretending it’s in the interest of the people being exploited by monopolistic prices and restriction of choice. Feigning concern for the public being ripped off by cowboys is disingenuous.
Monopolies are seen as such a threat that government created the Competition Commission (formerly the Monopoly and mergers commission) who say-
You stated, “unfortunately because the industry is unregulated neither a customer or Miele can choose between those engineers who are good and those who are bad.”
So having understood that, how can you justify punishing all the good engineers with a blanket restriction of everyone’s trade? By that definition there would be no repairers for any product, and all companies would have their own monopoly on repairs.
Its not difficult.
There is no need to act on anything you complain about because customers already have the choice you say they should have.
Use Miele’s own engineers and pay the rate; use an independent like I did and pay a market rate. Whats the beef ?
It is beginning to sound like sour grapes because You are not one of Miele’s selected independents?
Its not a lot different to the pattern parts debate.
Should it be allowed to make pattern parts for other peoples products? It seems it should be.
But should a manufacturer honour a warranty on a product that has been fitted with a pattern part? Emphatically no.
Why? Because the quality of the pattern is a pale comparison to the original; that is why its half the price.
and the freemarket you love so much does nothing other than get a toe hold into other peoples business by undercutting and usually short cutting and short changing the machines owners by carrying out poor service fitting poor parts or worse.
It is not that customers are paying over the odds for their repairs; it is that they are paying the right price for a proper job.
If the dealers and Miele’s service is excellent and the repairs done properly it follows that the only way in this world that anyone else is going to improve on that is by finding short cuts to drop the price.
and so you have a downward spiral; where all of the quality and the ethics and integrity leach out of business because of the free market.
Nobody can afford to do the right thing; nobody makes any margin to support their business through thick and thin.
Witness all the very good businesses going to the wall as we pontificate because as soon as the tills stop ringing they have no business and no balance sheet and no reserves.
I have seen the impact of the processes you advocate on very good brands over 45 years and it is not something to promote.
It is to be feared.
I don’t think there’s much point continuing with this Mark so this is my last response until someone else contributes. You clearly have blinkers on because you have a vested interest. People can read both our comments and make their own mind up.
I sympathise with your anger because like me you have been around long enough to see the repair industry virtually destroyed but you are blaming the wrong thing. This discussion is purely about one thing only and this is that Miele now appear to be making washing machines that must be repaired only by their own engineers or dealers when error codes are triggered. This is a recent development and your business has presumably had many problems and gripes going back decades.
When you say, “There is no need to act on anything you complain about because customers already have the choice you say they should have.” it puzzles me as to whether you have even read the article and my comments properly. The whole article points out that customers now have no choice but to go to Miele or one of their dealers when error codes are triggered. They cannot fix it themselves and they cannot use their local repairman.
I haven’t complained as you put it, I’ve pointed out important information that the public would not otherwise find out until after a purchase so they can use it to help make informed decisions. I don’t have a vested interest because I do not do repairs and I do not sell washing machines. My interest lies only in giving factual information in a fair and balanced way to try and help consumers make informed purchasing decisions.
If you read what I have written about Miele and my Miele washing machine reviews you will see I am far from a Miele-basher and have convinced hundreds of people to buy Miele when they would not have done so before. I know this because I receive many emails saying they’d bought one only after reading my review, many say they’d never really even heard of Miele before. This is precisely why I feel morally obliged to point out this new development which means they have even less chance of anyone but Miele to do any repairs than I had previously advised about.
It appears to me that you are raising fears falsely, the only one who seems to have an issue is you; or those who tell you about the business you are not involved in.
I feel that is something that needs challeging.
But some useful points have been made, and hopefully consumers will see that there is another side; as there is to every coin.
Hi Martin,
There’s a few points on which I think you are incorrect.
The first is that, regardless of how you slice it, restricting the choice of a customer to Miele service only, squeezing out repairs by themselves or by an independent engineer, is just plain wrong. Why should Miele or any other manufacturer be allowed to create a monopoly in that way?
That’s like saying that, if I buy a Ford car, no-one can touch it except Ford as Ford won’t give out any technical information to *qualified* people. A practice that has been outlawed by the EU as it was deemed to be a restriction of trade and consumer choice.
As for pattern spares, if that is your view then why can I buy a Miele door seal, supposedly “pattern”, as it isn’t supplied from Miele, that Miele sell for about £100 for £30, with the Miele part number on it, from the same supplier as Miele use?
Are you seriously going to tell me that a Miele box and sticker are worth £70? And, if you buy the part only from Miele there is *NO* warranty or return if the pack is opened.
I agree, there’s a lot of bad copy parts out there but, equally, there are just as many that are the genuine article without the genuine price.
But the short of it is, Miele restrict servicing information to an excessive degree and overcharge for their spares as well as, in my opinion, their labour charges. All of which result in people that purchase one and require service to be held to ransom with their own money that they invested in a quality product in all good faith.
Good machines, shame about the catches.
K.
There are actually very few faults that fall into this category; but those that do are entirely to do with the electronic programmer and diagnostic software.
The up and coming scenario that is not that far away is that your quality machine will be wired into the net and potentially a manufacturer will know about a fault before you have time to report it because you will be on there system from day one with your warranty. This is tomorrows world; and there is nothing the ‘independent’ can do about it.
You have to understand that in order to differentiate itself, the quality brands have to offer ‘added value’ that set them apart. If they do not, nobody will buy them.
The under written 10 and 5 year warranty is the backbone of that world because all the added value will be built in to the purchase price; the repairs will be free and beyond that ten years most customers do not give a hoot, because it is more than double the average life of an average machine.
Manufactures may offer an annual service charge to keep the cover on past warranty; but paid for repairs as you understand them in the quality brands will be a thing of the past.
Thats not a monopoly, its a business; and it is a choice a customer makes at the point of purchase. If you oppose it, challenge the legality of it.
How a company like Ford manage there business is for them to worry about. But within warranty it is already the case that you have to return to the dealer.
Out of warranty; well you cannot sell cheap products to the masses and then bind them up in practices that add no perceived value to the customer. No one would buy in to it.
At the other end of the scale; if you go for quality, based on a promise, you buy in to that brands offering and expect them to stand by it. As much as ‘independent’ engineers would like to think otherwise, the majority of customers of quality brands do not have any worries about the cost of service; it is an artificial concern being aired by those here who purport to be ‘free marketeers’.
But let us examine their credentials for a moment. Not so many years ago a very Big retailer called John Lewis turned round to the manufacturers and said; ‘we are sick of being held to our never knowingly undersold price promise; it means we cannot sustain our artificially high prices as the internet are always undercutting us, do something about it’. The response was that Electrolux gave us the John Lewis own brand and Miele gave John Lewis there own models. Now when a customer goes into John Lewis they are free to push their own unique models in the comfort that nobody will be able to undercut that model, nor will they ever have to stand by the ‘Never Knowingly Undersold’ lie. I think that is deceitful.
Do we hear a word of complaint on these columns about this kind of restrictive trading ? No we dont; we have a recommendation of their wares and their service.
and as for pattern spares:
You have no idea about the relativity of parts pricing to its shelf life then. Miele will have your part on the shelf for 20 years or more. Your pattern part source will stop bothering as soon as the numbers selling dry up. That costs money as does so many other aspects of being and maintaining your quality brand.
and what of the integrity of that ‘pattern’ part. Its good because you say it is. But if it turns out to be sub-standard and totals the machine; where does the customer turn ? At that point the ‘engineer’ usually shows his true colours and dissapears.
Every argument you put forward for the ‘free market’ results in profit erosion and the inability to do the things that made you great. Research and Development is a huge cost, carried out to varying degrees of success by the best brands; what does your grey market contribute to that process. Nothing.
If you have any experience of working with the brand you will know three things.
1) Miele machines are reliable, they dont break down often.
2) When they do its usually after 10 -15 years and can be as long as 18-20 years.
3) At that point customers are happy and either do not resent a reasonable repair charge or they rather write off the machine for a replacement than even spend £50 on it.
I have had two Miele machines in my lifetime; my first was 18 years old when it came to me and went on for another 7 before I finally gave up on the noise from the worn motor, and my current machine which is 9 years old and counting; they have both been superb; and neither ever saw a Miele engineer, let alone an independent.
Mark: Thanks for your ongoing contribution. As long as we keep it totally on topic we will hopefully leave a thread that people can read and gain something from. We all need to try and be more concise and to refrain from repeating points already made.
When you say, “There are actually very few faults that fall into this category..” that’s the kind of clarification I was after to help make sure all facts are known. People can decide for themselves if that’s acceptable or not. However, the inescapable concern is that this is the thin end of the wedge and if a restrictive practice only applies to some faults it’s still restrictive practice. If what you are saying is that Miele can only maintain certain advancements on technology and design by only having their own people deal with certain repairs they are straying into dodgy territory.
I accept this is an important issue to you but no one can argue that it isn’t wrong because even the government have legislated against such practices which they say “damages companies, competition, and the economy”. Your argument is that you feel it is a good idea and justified, but unfortunately the argument is based soley on the fact that you personally benefit from it and that you are wrongly convinced that all engineers except Miele engineers are useless cowboys which is not a strong position. I am glad you’ve contributed your points though.
You also said -
You raise an interesting scenario which I could debate on but need to keep to the relevance of restrictive practices. As manufacturers become more sophisticated and technology advances it may be that
they can do this sort of thing but government and the public will need to decide if this comes at the cost of restricting competition and creating monopolies. I for one wouldn’t want someone contacting me saying there’s a fault on my washer and I need to pay them over £100 plus parts to fix it when I have no symptoms at all! I think most people would say no thanks I’ll wait until I have a problem.
Miele can’t offer added value by forcing their customers to use only Miele engineers who need to charge twice as much as some other decent independent engineers. They offer higher quality at a premium price for the few that can afford them. Their “value” has nothing to do with their attempts to restrict competition. Forcing their customers to use only Miele people and making it impossible (by deliberate design) to use cheaper legitimate (and as Ken pointed out) fully qualified competing engineers is in their interests only.
Anyone buying a Miele washing machine has the perfect right to use Miele or Miele dealers who will offer excellent service but at a premium price. Miele should not have the arrogance to pretend they are protecting their customers from cowboys when they try to restrict their competition who in many cases can offer just as good a service at cheaper prices – especially if they have proper technical information. Any Miele owner finding the cheaper engineers were unacceptably bad would never use them again and probably use a Miele dealer next time, that’s how it works.
I fully understand why Miele and yourself and other dealers would want to stop anyone else from ever touching a Miele product. It’s perfectly understandable to want to try and protect your own interests. The competition commission is set up precisely to police and restrict these practices because they recognise that the public and the economy must have protection to prevent thousands of monopolies.
Consumer choice is the foundation of a healthy economy and it’s essential to keep prices down and under constant pressure.
Here are some rhetorical questions – How much do you think a Miele washing machine would cost if Miele were the only company making washing machines in the world? How much labour would you charge if you were the only company doing repairs for 100 miles?
Some of your other points about the difficulties in providing high quality service I have sympathy with but Miele and yourself operate in a so-called free economy subject to market forces. I greatly admire what Miele are doing by being one of the few companies still making proper washing machines I really do. I fully understand how expensive it is to produce high quality products and high quality repair service. However, if the general public won’t pay the premium prices needed to support such high standards then the business model fails. If the public prefer to take risks and use cheaper companies or buy cheaper washers that’s market forces at work and they get what they deserve.
I’ve spent 9 years on Washerhelp trying to persuade consumers they are wrong to keep buying rubbish washing machines and should spend more on a proper washing machine, and whilst having a big effect I’m sure, most people continue to buy the rubbish instead. That’s their choice – and often they just can’t afford anything but the rubbish. We can’t force them. Maybe we could destroy all the competition so only Miele make washing machines, then we could force everyone wanting a washing machine to pay £1000 for the basic model? That would work and we’d be doing them a favour by protecting them from all the cowboy manufacturers selling inferior washing machines. I’m sure they’d be grateful ;-)
Mark: I wish you wouldn’t write so much as it means I have to ignore contentious points or reply to them all which makes my replies even longer ;-)
If the majority of customers of quality brands do not have any worries about the cost of service then this whole subject isn’t remotely threatening to you and purely academic to you. I hope you aren’t arguing just for the sake of it :-)
I disagree entirely with the claim. Miele washing machines start at around £555 and are affordable to most people as long as they value quality over features. I’ve personally received many emails from people saying they have never bought a Miele washing machine before and always bought Hoover, Hotpoint, Indesit etc but after reading my glowing reviews of them ( Miele overview ) they have decided to take my advice and invest money in a Miele.
Some though have described how it was tough to spend that much or even afford that much. Miele customers are not all rich people who don’t care about costs, and many may find if any repairs are required out of guarantee they may not be able to afford to pay Miele labour prices. With the current economic climate set to get very much worse even relatively well off customers are going to need to see if they can cut down on repair costs and should have the ability to do that if that’s what they want/need to do.
It is precisely with these people in mind that I believed it necessary to as well as commending Miele quality to also explain that buying a Miele these days could mean committing to using only Miele engineers for the life of the machine or at least for some specific faults. These people should know this information.
Apologies to all for writing at such length and 3 consecutive comments. There were too many points raised to fit in one reply so I thought splitting them up might help. I’m hoping for some comments from other engineers and consumers too.
You are right to criticise this practice, though you are wrong to blame either John Lewis or the Internet and to say that I would never criticise it. This practice is very old and easily pre dates the Internet and practised by virtually all the main retailers including Comet and Currys. In the 80s I bought a Matsui graphic equaliser for my hi fi which I believe is a Currys own brand with a deliberately Japanese-sounding name to imply quality as Japan had a high reputation for hi fi products.
They all do it and have done for decades. The practice is rife and muddies the waters to the detriment of consumers and I have spoken out against it too.
Contrary to your assumption, I am not someone with a vested interest complaining about things for my own benefit. I have a invested interest only in being seen as fair, balanced and with no vested interest. I don’t claim never to be wrong or never to have made a mistake, only that I try to write objectively and with informing the general public to the best of my ability as a goal. In return I hope to earn money through enough satisfied users visiting my sites to make low key but highly relevant advertisements work.
There are several places where I’ve criticised the exclusive models practice. Here is a quote from my replies to just one thread on one of my Forum posts
The above quote is balanced in that it criticises the practice but also tries to see it from their point of view. People can then make up their own minds about it.
Thank you for the indepth replies Andy.
Ultimately John Lewis use their position to control the market to their advantage. Shame its allowed to happen!
I would say that even if I were not involved in the business I would prefer within reason that companies be given leave to protect their business interests. It really depends on what you have to protect!
Personally I do not do vested-interests and would and do criticise the great and the good, and not for the sake of it !
The quality of an after-sales service network to a quality manufacture is a huge concern as it often these people who actually end up delivering on a manufactures life-expectancy and reliability promises, and thats not to mention safety concerns
Giving an open cheque book to all and sundry to service and repair undoubtedly undermines that aspect of a manufacturers offering, be it on washing machines, microwaves, or dishwashers.
I personally know of many cases that would make your hair curl regarding ‘unqualified engineers’ working on products from many manufactures which are at best dodgy and at worst dishonest.
Miele have a reputation of the highest order. That is something to defend; and I would make no apology for doing so, were I Miele, Mercedes Benz, Rolex or Maserati.
The point you are missing regarding Tomorrows World is that the service visit and repair would be done ‘under warranty’ at no cost to you.
Could you imagine how impressed you would be with the following :
‘Hello, is that Miele?’
‘Yes’
‘I have a problem with my washing machine!’
‘Yes we know, the pump is not operating. We have emailed you the self help problem solving guide, but if that does not resolve your probem we can have an engineer call tomorrow if its convenient; its all covered under your (insert warranty/service plan etc)’
At the moment its fantasy, but watch this space!
So if Miele’s intent is to defend its profit base in order that it can continue to lead the world in the production of the best quality and performing products then I applaud it.
If its illegal then i am sure one of the other manufacturers will come along to challenge it or copy it !
Its good there are still some companies around that look beyond short term profit and use the money they make to innovate and improve the world for us consumers.
The industry is littered with the remains of once similarly great brands that did not take care of their business.
Anyway, I think I have said quite enough !
Thanks Mark. I’m glad we’ve been able to discuss opposing views respectfully.
However, can you not see the irony and contradiction in your opening statement?
I keep trying to end our actual discussion so others can join in but you keep writing provocative stuff that’s hard to leave unchallenged – you are very good at that :-)
I probably know just as many. That’s why the trading standards exist. It’s their job to police the cowboys – not manufacturers. I can see why you agree with Miele (and other manufacturers are also making it harder for independents to get technical information) but unfortunately it’s against regulations to protect your own business to the detriment of restricting free trade. Bizarrely this is the very thing you are complaining about with exclusive models, which helps protect major retailers interests to the detriment of fair competition.
You cannot say that because there are cowboys you have the right to damage all legitimate repairer’s trade. If you are implying all engineers that aren’t Miele dealers or Miele engineers are scummy cowboys then at least say it.
Hi Mark,
Let me get this straight, you’re saying that…
It’s okay for Miele to create a monopoly for themselves through their practices but it’s not okay for anyone else?
Retailers should not be allowed to dictate what they sell or have products made specifically for them as you consider that deceitful and restricts consumer choice?
Yet refusing to supply information to allow the customer a choice of where a machine is serviced is okay by you?
Is it just me that sees a problem with this argument?
K.
I think you miss the distinction between those who make something and those who sell it.
I make it, its my product.
I offer it on terms, you decide to buy or not.
If I make 10,20, or 50% gross margin in my business is none of your concern; Ultimately I am running a business.
Your the one(s) who are harping on about illegality (remember innocent until proven otherwise) and monopolies (unfounded).
It is your opinion, that is all.
and on that basis I felt it was worth challenging and raising a voice of dissent.
Please reread what I actually said about John Lewis and base my criticism on.
John Lewis’s behaviour is deceitful solely based on their price promise. If they did away with the ‘never knowingly undersold’ tag instead of working to set themselves outside of the field of true competition I would have no issues.
Miele on the other hand only deliver what they promise, and the practice you criticise is just one of the ways Miele can continue to deliver on that promise.
You will never get me to agree that a jack of all trades is better than the master of one.
Mark: I can’t keep going round in circles on this with you. I can’t follow your logic any more. An example of which is your last statement, “You will never get me to agree that a jack of all trades is better than the master of one”. I couldn’t agree more with that statement so it’s clearly nothing to do with any argument I’ve put forward.
I will try to write a separate article on the subject of exclusive models though. All the major retailers have exclusive models for most major products. You highlight John Lewis presumably because of their never knowingly undersold boast, which I agree can’t be applied to exclusive models because you cannot buy the model elsewhere.
However, as long as a product is clearly labelled as an exclusive model common sense should inform everyone that it is only available at this store – so obviously it can’t be price-compared. Likewise no one should expect to buy a John Lewis exclusive brand of washing machine anywhere else. The John Lewis brand competes fairly with all other brands in an open market including the Zanussi models they are based on. They offer 3 year guarantees and some extra features. Customers comparing and researching can decide if the price they are sold at is good value or not.
Watch out for the topic and feel free to add your thoughts on it.
Meanwhile, trying to keep things on topic – how would you feel if you bought a John Lewis washing machine and as an engineer wanted to fix it yourself when if developed a fault – only to find it triggered an error code. You could work out what the problem was and cure the fault but the washer wouldn’t work until you’d paid John Lewis £99 to come and reset it? Their excuse could be the same as yours, that they are trying to stop cowboys fixing their washing machines which carry their well respected name and have a hidden agenda of trying to stop all decent engineers fixing them too because they can do it cheaper than them.
The same question could apply to your Sony TV, your car, your PC, everything you own in fact, and all manufacturers could use the same excuse. The result would be all your repair costs for every product would no longer be subject to any competition and rise considerably. I can’t see how you could possibly argue this would be acceptable to you as no one would believe you. You can only argue that it shouldn’t be allowed – apart from with Miele because you personally benefit. Sorry, but that position is indefensible.
You said it’s up to customers to decide if it’s acceptable or not but that is precisely why I wrote the article in the first place so that customers know what they are getting. They can then make an informed choice as to whether or not that’s acceptable to them. The complication is that the government believe restricting free trade is bad for the economy, so even if a small percentage of rich people are happy with the arrangement the government can stop it.
This discussion has been quite interesting to follow and has strongly influenced my choice of machine.
This may seem a little off topic but will not drift as much as some earlier contributions.
I currently need a new machine following the failure of a Blomberg 1501, it expired with much smoke exiting the drum. The machine has provided many years of good service and I have repaired it on two occaissions having previously been told by engineers that the machine was not economically repairable. Once I was informed that a motor would cost in excess of £140 it would take 6 weeks to arrive and then i would have to pay for fitting, at least two hours! I purchased a repalcement motor for £35 inc vat and delivery within three days, fitted in 25 mins.
I had seriously considered a Miele machine following a very good review on this site. I had hoped that paying £650 plus for a machine with a good guarantee and good parts supply would be wise. I would hope for a long service life, available parts and even the possibility of me being able to repair it if I am given a ridiculous quote by an engineer of any type from any company.
However, I will not purchase a Miele machine of any type having followed this debate. I strongly object to any form of restrictive practice that removes my ability to a make a choice. It is my washine machine and my money, I should have the choice of how I proceed to get it repaired and how I spend that money. I would have probably in all honesty sought the services of a Miele engineer, but I also feel strongly that my money should be spent supporting local businesses so I may have called on a local indepdent engineer. This should be my choice, I should not be tethered to the company by the need to have an engineer with access to error codes and/or a laptop.
I do appreciate the need for highly trained engineers to be able to make a living and the opportunity to achieve a return on years of training and experience. But this error code situation effectively forces me to use Miele engineers and pay what seem to be relatively high fees and very high spare part prices on top of paying a large sum for the machine itself.
I would now also be concerend with attitude and approach that a highly trained Miele engineer may have, I can understand brand loyalty, but I would worry that I would be dealing with washing machine zealots.
This error code practice I feel may well put many customers off of purchasing these machines, this will reduce sales, slow business, reduce the need for Miele engineers, as there will be fewer machines ultimately reducing the income for Miele engineers.
It has been stated that ‘the customer will decide’ and this one has, Miele has been crossed off of the list, because of this issue and to some degree the tone of the debate.
I will now re read the reviews on this site and check out Which and buy something else.
Mark said; “The under written 10 and 5 year warranty is the backbone of that world”
But Miele’s warranty is not insurance backed and has not been for some time now.
They used to underwrite it through D&G but not anymore.
If Miele go bust or get bought over it may well not be worth the paper it’s written on.
K.
Yes, thanks Ken, Miele have been running their own extended warranty promotions for about a year or so now. I don’t think Miele’s 5 and 10 year extended “cover” promotions could be affected by anyone else carrying out repairs out of the warranty. They are a promotional tool designed to maintain their image as a premium brand at a premium price and are used instead of price reductions. It’s perfectly legitimate for them to do that and I understand why they do but it would be bizarre to think that their premium brand image also benefits by keeping repairs also at premium prices.
Phil made some excellent points which back up our words but carry weight because they are from a consumer. As he agreed, once purchased, a product is the property of the customer and they have the right to do whatever they want with it including stripping it down and attempting to fix it themselves. They also have the right to let their next door neighbour have a look at it, a trusted local repairer who may have a great reputation, or even take a gamble on ending up with a cowboy.
To me, the ideal situation would be for Miele to maintain their premium quality and price but seek to reduce the extremely high cost of repairing them out of warranty by negotiating with and assisting reputable independent repairers, and by making the spares cheaper. I’m not sure Miele can survive only appealing to the wealthy but they are welcome to try if that’s what they want. If they price their basic models at around £550 though they are presumably hoping to increase sales to more ordinary consumers.
I would have thought they cannot afford to allow a situation where some of their £550 washing machines, which they proudly boast are designed to last at least 20 years start lasting only 5 to 10 years because the customer is quoted crazy prices to repair it. It may be that they are so reliable in general that very few Miele washing machines face this dilemma but according to my sources this is now starting to happen. Miele must be aware it doesn’t take many examples of dissatisfied customers spreading the word that they invested in the best but it lasted no longer than their previous Hoover or Hotpoint to undermine their image.
I bring such points up because I respect the Miele brand and their commitment to quality. Repairs are always going to cost more because of the higher quality of the spares and even the lack of economy of scale due to selling much less of them. But I just can’t see how a premium quality brand would need to also be extremely expensive to repair to maintain a brand image – especially if replacing one part can cost almost as much as a new basic Miele.
In the interests of fairness, there are other examples of restrictive practices by other manufacturers which may or may not deserve their own topic. I would appreciate them being mentioned too if anyone in the trade has legitimate examples.
Andy do you actually have any evidence for what is alleged in the original article you publicised. Have you asked Miele in the interests of impartiality and balance to respond to the source of your concerns ?
Google brings up only three references to this subject; yours, and Kenneth Watt’s (Kwatt?) whos earliest recorded post is dated march 2008 on his own site (ukwhitegoods.co.uk). Ken again repeats the accusation in a later forum discussion on moneysavingexpert.com.
In both instances the ISE model ISE10 is proposed by Ken as a suitable ‘unrestricted’ alternative to the Miele model discussed; and just who is it that is behind the ISE brand in the UK? I am sure you will name them for the benefit of your readers.
It seems the ‘vested interests’ I stand accused of cut all ways; and I hope you will not mind making your readers aware of that.
I’m also hoping that you will come up with some clear examples of actual restrictions in practice as opposed to the hearsay you have seen fit to publish. Otherwise this is in danger of coming over as nothing more than a smeer campaign.
I did ask Miele.
They declined to comment. Which says it all really for me.
As for connectivity, I think you’ll find that most people don’t want, or need, that level of interaction with a fridge nor do they want a call from an engineer (often at their expense) when they didn’t ask for it.
Too close to Big Brother for most I expect and the reason why that LG among others have abandoned the idea. It doesn’t sell as people don’t want it.
Also, if you do your homework, you’ll find I’ve been on about Miele’s restrictive practices for a *LOT* longer than that.
K.
Mark wrote: “In America today! and as americans are the greatest free marketeers there are I think you can safely assume there is nothing illegal or restrictive in the service.”
Indeed but also in America, until someone takes them to court over it then nothing will happen, much the same as it is here.
Whilst Miele get away with it they will unless they are either shamed into changing the practice or consumer pressure forces change through legislation in general as there aren’t enough Miele owners out there to make much impact on government policy. In short, it’s not important enough to be on the government’s radar.
What you will find is that many manufacturers trade on a fine line between what is legal and what they can get away with. Morality doesn’t even remotely factor into the equation which is what is being debated, not clever tricks and selling features as that’s just smoke and mirrors IMO to disguise the fact that, when appliances like these do go wrong, they cost a fortune to put right and you only have one option much of the time.
Miele aren’t the only ones that do this, Indesit Company are at it as well now with their various brands, Hotpoint, Indesit, Ariston, Cannon etc. and even extending electrionic resets etc. to ovens.
So, I have to ask, where do consumers want to go? Do they want this and only the option of manufacturer service at whatever prices they decide to set or, is it more fair and open to allow the consumer the ability to choose who services their appliance?
I tend to side with the latter.
Miele (and others) side with the former.
It really is that simple and regardless of how you try to defend Miele Mark, there is no escaping the fact that they offer their customers no choice for aftercare bar their own service at whatever they choose to charge people. To my mind, that’s a monopoly.
K.
Hello Mark: I deleted your other response, which was merely a long promotion for Miele products and not remotely related to the subject of whether or not Miele are restricting free trade by forcing customers to use their own engineers when certain error codes occur. Apologies to Kenneth who quoted a few of them in his replies but I need to keep this discussion focussed on the original topic.
Here is a response to your on topic comment above -
I don’t see my article as alleging anything. That’s an emotive word implying unsubstantiated accusations. My article is fair and balanced and it starts and finishes by restating my opinion that Miele washing machines are one of the best.
It also says, “If any of the information in this article is incorrect please let me know”. And in the interests of fairness I also said, “It should be noted that other manufacturers are also increasingly making it difficult for independent repairers” and I mention this fact again in one of my subsequent comments. (Kenneth has mentioned some of their names in his comment above)
I would be happy for Miele to comment but it’s hard to imagine how it could be defended really.
The issue isn’t how many people highlight it. It’s is it true or not, and should consumers know before making purchasing decisions or not?
You use the word, “accusation”. Are you now saying it’s totally untrue? As you’ve spent so long in the debate tying to defend the practice you can’t now imply it isn’t even true by saying it’s only an accusation.
I think I’ve made clear I don’t have any vested interests other than to be seen as having no vested interests. My entire sites depend on my reputation for balance, fairness and a resource that can be trusted. I accept your point that Ken is open to the vested interest smear but he has never failed to reveal his interests in all the articles and forum debates I’ve seen of his.
Also, his points cannot be undermined by having a vested interest if they are accurate and fair. Only a fool would totally dismiss warnings or information with the excuse that the one giving the message has some vested interest – although conversely, only a fool would accept words at face value if someone appears to have a vested interest too.
I can confirm that the ISE10 is “a suitable ‘unrestricted’ alternative to the Miele”. The promise of spare parts at reasonable prices, unrestricted access to technical information and support for independent engineers and even diy repairers is revolutionary.
Currently it’s only one model and therefore competes only with similarly priced Miele machines. I also think on a direct comparison Miele washing machines still win on sheer build quality comparison but the ISE10 is close enough to count and good enough for them to give even commercial users a full 3 year guarantee.
The concept is a direct threat to Miele because it is a premium quality product and the people behind it aspire to making it the most repairable washing machine available and want to get back to the good old days when products lasted decades because their owners could always get them repaired quickly and at fair, reasonable prices.
In these environmental and economic times it is potentially cutting edge philosophy but it remains to be seen whether or not the public will support it enough. They certainly should though in my opinion because products being repairable at reasonable prices is essential for the future and highly desirable. In the past Miele have relied on the sheer quality of their products but I believe they need to seriously look at making them a lot more reasonably priced to repair and relinquishing some control. If they do they will surely be unbeatable.
I’ve always accepted that a quality product inevitably costs more to repair, but if it is true that Miele can charge £160 for a door seal which is 3 times the cost of a normal decent quality door seal but in no way 3 times better quality, and can quote £500 to replace a main PC board they are now in serious danger of seeing some of their washers being scrapped due to being beyond economical repair many years before their 20 year life expectancy. This may only happen to a minority of machines but it totally undermines the point of investing in a high quality brand and in my opinion seriously damages Miele’s reputation.
I agree with you that many of these figures are anecdotal as I have not found out by personal experience. I’ve heard the information from sources I trust but I was hoping some engineers would quote these examples directly themselves.
The only problem with the ISE10 is that it costs £800 with a 10 year warranty but then I know I won’t get any argument from you that quality product and quality service costs a lot of money ;-)
You want me to come up with more examples? This is not a Miele-bashing campaign!
The article highlighted the only example I needed to highlight, that is that most Miele washing machines now produce error codes which can only be reset by Miele engineers or dealers which restricts fair trade and competition. You have spent many hours defending this practice as being “necessary”, but now you’ve changed tactics to try and call them accusations implying it was never true.
“Miele aren’t the only ones that do this, Indesit Company are at it as well now with their various brands, Hotpoint, Indesit, Ariston, Cannon etc. and even extending electrionic resets etc. to ovens.”
Well as long as thats made clear ! which it was’nt.
It appeared that Miele were being singled out for special attention; but what you are actually saying is that it will soon be an industy norm.
Thank you.
But Kens your monopoly is imagined, really it is; i’m now sitting in the office of a company that is an independent and is an appointed service agent for miele and other brands. Their service charge is £57.50 inc VAT for out of warranty repairs; they do all Miele machines as well as Bosch AEG Zanussi etc and none of their engineers have laptops. I can give you their number if you want it.
Good luck with the ISE; they (Asko) were a first class product for the years we sold and serviced them before they were taken down by soverieign. There was never much wrong with them; it was parts and service from sovereign that became a problem.
I am also mindful of the fact that Miele UK is a ‘sole distributor’ for the German Brand in the UK in the same way that ISEappliances are for theirs and that distributors have monopolies on products over territories which also presumably keeps prices artificially high and limits choice?
Would’nt it be great if there were two ‘Miele companies’ and dealers could play one off against the other :-)
Where will it end ?
The removed post highlighted the issue of ‘customer choice’ and gave a consumers view of their experience at the hands of Miele’s service Personnel which i felt was very much in tune with some of the concerns about customer choice being raised above.
But its Your site Andy.
Please lets agree to differ on the finer points; what is agreed is that you get what you pay for and what you pay for usually provided tangible dividends over cheaper alternatives. Miele’s philosophy for the last 100 years and something that has done them and the world little harm.
Hello Mark. I’m sorry about not accepting your other post. It’s the first and only time I’ve ever done it on this Blog. I could only see a long post about Miele’s customer service and technological advances. This thread is already bogged down with very lengthy comments which I fear most people will not be bothered to follow. It doesn’t matter how great Miele are, or how fantastic their service or technical advancement is, it has nothing to do with the legitimacy of restricting customer choice and other competition. Absolutely nothing.
A final comment from me before unlocking horns with you :-) and waiting for others to contribute, in response to your comment -
That was made clear in my original article when I said – “It should be noted that other manufacturers are increasingly making it difficult for independent repairers (who routinely beat manufacturers in Which? surveys for customer service and customer satisfaction) to get technical information but Miele seem to be tightening a grip they’ve always held.”
I also mentioned it at least once more in one of my additional comments #24 where I said – “In the interests of fairness, there are other examples of restrictive practices by other manufacturers which may or may not deserve their own topic”.
I also said in one of the first comments, “This sort of thing was rife in the car industry until independent repairers got together and challenged it in court. It was ruled illegal, and car manufacturers were forced to provide adequate technical information and sell specialist tools and equipment to independent repairers.”
Therefore, the fact that others are doing it has no bearing on whether a: it is right and b: it is legal and c: it will eventually be stopped. In fact the irony of your comment is that the more it becomes “an industry norm” the more likely it will be to be ruled illegal and stopped.
Hi Mark,
Actually ISE was my idea because of these practices and the fact that a lot of the indies were being frozen out from certain brands. I make no apology for trying to offer decent products at decent prices with as much freedom on information as possible. Nor do I apologise for making spares cheaper or encouraging repair before replacement.
The point is, if ISE can do it, why can’t Miele? What have they got to protect or be frightened of by allowing repairers or users to be able to repair the machines?
We print the error codes and what they mean in the user manuals. We even tell people how to resolve the problem themselves in there and on the phone, email or forums to try to save an engineer visit wherever possible.
What’s wrong with that and being that open?
And, just as a side note, you drew the comparison first and stated that I had a vested interest and I did and do. Twenty years ago I had an interest as a repairer and I still do today irrespective of what my job title happens to be in seeing that people get all the information without the corporate soundbites. Then the decision is solely with the customer, where it should be, in what to buy.
K.
There are probably a million and one reasons why Miele have evolved into the company they are and none of them will have anything to do with anything illegal or underhand.
The world is a fast changing place; the internet has transformed our business and our companies; but really Ken, to even liken your operations to those of Miele and their 45 year plus history of growth in this country is a bit rich dont you think ?
The ethics are all well and good and have their place as we have discussed, but the reality is that Miele want, for the time being at least, that their dealers survive and thrive on a two way relationship. If you commit to the excellence that is Miele, Miele will commit to providing you with a level field that applies to all their dealers.
Whats wrong with that ?
The alternative is that you evolve into another Indesit or Beko where your only concern is the number of boxes you move and leave the customer care to whoever it was that sells at the cheapest price and picks up the sales.
You and i know that those dealers are the last people who will try to help.
I note neither you or Andy have taken up the challenge on the service side and wish to help debunk this myth that there is any ‘monopoly’ or restriction on servicing Miele.
Please, show me where any other manufacturer, Bosch, Siemens, Aeg, LG, Haier or any of the others have public access to any technical information or help with diagnosing and fixing problems with their machines?
Change the title of this piece to “Warning about potentially restrictive practices in washing machines servicing” and paint the true and complete picture and i would be happy, but its not likely to happen ;-)
I’ve said all I need to say Mark. Sorry, I don’t think there’s any point in me continually repeating the same arguments.
You’ve got the wrong end of the stick on one point though which I need to clarify. No one’s said manufacturers should provide public access to technical information, only to engineers. The public have a right to try to fix their own machine if so inclined and capable – not get technical support. We just meant that being forced to pay Miele to reset the machine infringes on that right.
I am very interested in this debate as we have a Miele machiine which we have probably had for 10 years. This week the motor packed in and obviously it’s too expensive to repair so we are in the market for a new one. My wife is keen on Miele but having read this article I am having second thoughts. Has there been any more news in the past few weeks?
One question – one of the reasons my wife likes the Miele is that the door doesn’t wait 2 minutes before being able to be opened. Is there any way I can find out which other makes and models don’t have this irritating “feature”?
Hello Mark T: The whole premise on which I have enthusiastically recommended Miele washing machines is that they are of such high quality that they should last a good 20 years. If you have a Miele washing machine that you are happy with and it is only 10 years old, which needs a new motor then the theory is that it should be worth investing in a new motor as the machine is only halfway through it’s potential lifespan.
Have you had a quote, or are you just assuming that it is not worth repairing? My gut instinct is that it should be worth repairing because it is a high-quality product. There is little point in buying a high-quality washing machine if you aren’t prepared to invest in repairs to keep it running as long as it is designed to last. However, the unavoidable caveat with this advice is that the cost of replacing the motor needs to be reasonable compared with the cost of buying another Miele washing machine, otherwise your Miele washing machine would then be, “beyond economical repair” which as I have hinted at in this article and subsequent comments would be very bad for Miele.
The irritating feature you mentioned is present on virtually all washing machines because it is cheaper to use a basic bimetal door interlock instead of something more sophisticated.
Thanks for your help. My wife dealt with the service engineer and apparently it doesn’t make financial sense to replace the motor although admittedly I don’t have a quote (and I will now ask for one). We are currently looking at replacing it with one valued at £550, so if the motor replacement costs more than, say, £400 then it probably makes sense to get a completely new one(?)
To make a fair judgement you need to compare how much it costs to repair with how much it costs to replace it with another Miele of similar specifications.
But if you could buy a brand new Miele with a 5 year guarantee for around that price you might still prefer it to fixing your current Miele even if your current one is say £750 to replace.
It’s not for an engineer to decide if a washing machine is beyond economical repair its for the customer. You should have been given a quote for a replacement motor surely?
OK, I’ve had a quote of £400 to replace the motor on our current machine, vs. getting a new one for £550, so it’s about whether or not the price is close enough to justify a new machine. It’s a tough call and I don’t really know what to do. Thanks for your help, though.
Most people these days have a psychological problem with spending £400 to replace one part on a washing machine when they could buy a new equivalent (or near equivalent) complete with a new guarantee on all parts (in this case at least 2 years) for £550. It is just too much of a gamble for most people. In your case you are being asked to pay 73% of the cost of a new machine simply to replace one part. (Don’t forget what I said though about comparing like for like if your model is a higher spec model which might cost (say) £750 to replace with the same specs as this would reduce the percentage to 53%.
With the majority of washing machines and for the majority of people it’s likely to be a no-brainer – the washing machine would be seen as being uneconomical to repair and would be scrapped. With a Miele washing machine of 10 years though it should be less of a gamble because it’s supposed to last 20 years and could therefore give another 10 years service. It’s a quality washing machine so the fears of something else breaking down soon after are diminished but cannot be ruled out.
The problem is these repair prices are now entering the same territory that mere ordinary washing machines have occupied for many years and I’ve always scorned. In the 90s we used to repair Hoover washing machines costing £365 with motors costing £89 (in the days when you could replace the main armature). This equated to just under 25% of the replacement cost, or even if you compare with the replacement cost of Hoover’s entry model at £250 it was still only 36%. Even then it wasn’t uncommon for people to prefer to buy a new one instead but the majority of people would have the repair done with relative confidence.
As I pointed out as a secondary concern in this article, some Miele washing machines are now being scrapped well before their proclaimed lifespan because their owners are being quoted £400 and £500 to replace one part when they can buy a brand new Miele with at least 2 year guarantee for not much more. I still find this shocking. I don’t know if Miele see this as a problem but if a significant percentage of these customers do not buy another Miele washing machine and tell others that it only lasted several years and no longer than their last AEG, Siemens or Bosch etc. then maybe people will start to think there’s no point investing in a Miele.
The whole point of a Miele is that it is superior in build quality, it costs a lot more (in most cases) than their competitors but at least they last 20 years and so work out a good investment in the long term. If this is starting to be undermined because of the high cost of repairs verses the relatively low cost of a replacement there will be consequences eventually.
If these ratios are transposed to other products you can see how crazy they are. If you bought a £14,000 car and halfway through its expected lifespan it needed a repair and you were quoted £10,220 (73%) what would you do? Or at the other end of the scale if you had an £80 printer and were quoted £58.40 what would you do?
If you’d bought a £300 Servis washing machine and were quoted £219 for a new motor (this is a fairly accurate set of figures) it would be equally outrageous but at least I could imply it serves you right for not buying a better quality washing machine.
Please let us know what you decide to do. As you say it’s a tough call.
I agree with you about the relative cost of repairs, especially since this is just one part that needs replacing. I’m not sure how much these motors cost to the trade, but I found only one source on the Internet last night and the cost to me would be over £400, which seems astonishing. It occurred to me our repairer might take away our existing machine and replace the motor with one salvaged from another machine, and then sell it on second hand for a reasonable profit (not in itself an issue but might encourage them to recommend a new machine).
Anyway, after discussions we have decided to buy a new machine as it comes with a 5 year warranty, so it was a no-brainer, really.
Thanks again for your eloquent and speedy replies.
Only this week I have knowledge of two miele machines ‘written off’ as uneconomical to repair because of one = electronic and two = motor by an independent engineer.
The customer (a housing association who owned both machines) sought a second opinion.
In both cases the machines have been repaired by an authorised independent repairer (not Miele) at a fraction of the cost quoted; by repairing the true fault as opposed to the one invented because the repairer had not a clue of what he was looking at.
This kind of behaviour is rife in this industry and should be highlighted. You are better off going to someone/anyone who actually has the trust of the manufacturer in question and avoiding the ‘jack of all trades’ who very quickly gets out of their depth.
At that point the £20 difference you might have to pay for someone who actually knows his way around your machine looks like very good value if it is going to net you another 10 years with your Miele machine.
Perhaps if Miele made the servicing information available, rather than continuing with the restrictive practices, to the trade then those machines would not have been written off.
But they do, so we all just have to deal with it.
K.
This does happen, the reason I don’t believe it’s “rife” though is that most independents don’t touch Miele repairs as they can’t get technical information or the codes to reset the error codes. Add to this the lack of a decent trade discount on spares and the fact that most independent trade spares suppliers hardly stock any Miele spares (because they can’t get a decent trade markup too?) And finally the fact that there’s not a great demand for repairs because Miele are a relatively obscure brand in the big scheme of things and are generally very reliable products – and it all equates to a situation where most independents just shrug their shoulders and accept that Miele products are not something worth getting involved in. This is exactly the situation desired by Miele, as confirmed by yourself.
There will always be some people who will have a bash though, and without technical information some may be unable to diagnose some faults properly. Some others may just be not up to the job and wouldn’t be able to diagnose properly even with technical information. But there’s never an excuse for inventing a fault and telling a customer it isn’t worth repairing just to get out of admitting you don’t know what the fault is or to try and sell another machine. In that I very much agree. Having said that, you can’t know if the misdiagnosis was fraudulent as you claim, or just incompetent or a genuine best guess.
However, the issue being discussed in recent comments was the cost of replacing a motor on a 10 year old Miele washing machine compared with £550 for a new Miele causing another customer to scrap a Miele way before it should be scrapped. Your comment is only really speculating that in some cases an engineer may have been mistaken in advising a motor is required. I accept this can happen but it also happens with all makes of machine due to a minority of incompetents or cowboys.
So we agree that some cases of Miele’s being scrapped could be due to misdiagnosis, but unless you can come back and say a motor for a 10 year old Miele washer would cost much less than the £400 – £500 fitted and that Miele washing machines never need a new motor or PCB etc. then all the issues recently discussed are still valid. The only thing in question is how many of the cases where Miele’s have been scrapped are due to being too expensive to repair (which is impossible to know) – and not that Miele’s are are not starting to get scrapped because of very high repair quotes and when they are no where near their proclaimed 20 year life span.
I can see your point that the amount of Miele’s being scrapped could be unfairly distorted because of misdiagnosis’ but it’s something there are no figures for and you can only speculate on. As I said, few independents bother looking at Miele’s any more so I feel it’s not likely to be affected as much as you claim yet I acknowledge you make a valid point.
I also agree that Miele owners should seriously consider only using Miele engineers or a Miele dealer for repairs and advise so on all my Miele reviews. The problem is, this advice is based on my knowledge that restrictive practices make it extremely difficult or even impossible for reputable independents to give a good repair service, and is precisely why I wrote this article in the first place because no one should be forced to use a dealer or manufacturer’s repair service.
I find BSH Group to be as restrictive as any other. Try ringing Appliance Care and getting technical help to repair a Bosch machine; also try ringing AEG at your local service force office and see how much help you get.
It is unfair to level this criticism at one manufacturer.
It is a fact that if you have a Bosch or Siemens machine you are well advised to use Appliance Care or one of their appointed agents for repairs as they are equipped and trained to work on them.
Likewise AEG, Likewise Miele.
In fact; all the quality brands would stand that test. If you want to see the maximum return on your investment in a quality product invest in the quality of its after sales service network too.
By doing so you will avoid the folly of believing that their is a cheap fix that does not involve untrained personnel and patterned parts; all of which will shorten your enjoyment of your product.
You only need to look at the banking industry to see what happens when you have unregulated price lead competition.
I agree it’s unfair to level this criticism at just one manufacturer although I have said in the original article and several times in comments that other manufacturers have restrictive practices. They have also been named. I do intend to do a separate article on them as I said I would, I apologise for taking my time about it.
Miele are the only ones that I know of though that have upped the anti by creating washing machines that produce error codes that once triggered need a special set of key presses or a special bit of software on a laptop to reset. Customers are then forced to pay Miele or one of their dealers to reset it. Therefore they are (ironically) the best at restricting independent’s trade because even if an engineer easily fixes the fault he can’t reset the error code.
Your argument about using only dealers and manufacturers for quality repairs has credence only if all independent repairers are incompetent crooks out to rip off customers. Unfortunately for you, independents have a far better track record for giving high quality service at reasonable prices according to Which? consumer research. The majority of the public also know that cowboys are a minority and that the majority of independent repairers can fix their machine quicker, cheaper and often in a friendlier manner than manufactuers or dealers providing they have access to proper technical information.
The trade magazine ERT have a mystery shopper go to random towns in the UK and ask for advice about products on sale in over a dozen main household name stores and independent small retailers. Almost without exception, each month, the big stores score 0 or little more out of 10 and most independents score 8, 9 and 10s, which shows that independent traders commonly provide better service.
I don’t intend to cast any aspersions on your own standards which I do assume are likely to be very high but you don’t have a right to accuse all your competitors of being useless cowboys and restrict their trade.
No one can deny there are cowboys, but it’s up to each customer to decide if they want to “risk” getting one or not.
Here’s what Which? say about the car repair industry, which I mentioned in the main article and subsequent comments and is relevant to this topic because there are parallels -
So, without regulation or legislation you pay your money and take your chances?
Or; until the industry is regulated or legislated on you are well advised to seek expert help from someone who is competent and authorised by your products manufacturer to carry out repairs with all the technical knowledge and support required.
By so doing you will not risk being wrongly advised or taken advantage of by the small percentage of bad apples that exist in our industry; or be dissapointed by a competent engineer who does not have the necessary experience or tools to do the job.
These recommendations would apply pretty much to all the quality brands available and will ensure you get the maximum life from your machine; and will put you in a more favourable position with your manufacturer if you were unlucky enough to suffer a premature failure.
You may pay a few pounds extra; but on balance it is money well spent.
Fair enough ?
Yes Mark, that’s the current situation and it echos my own advice on all my Miele reviews such as this from my W3740 review -
If the manufacturers were to permit any and all engineers accees to the full technical information they wanted they (the manufacturers) would still have no idea of the quality of the repairman until after he had damaged, blown up, misdiagnosed or otherwise caused the premature end of the machines life; not unless that is, the customer complained to them, at which point the damage has been done.
The manufacturers are not in the business of training; they are in the business of selling and would not have any means of knowing whether the information made freely available was being interpreted correctly or applied appropriately by the varying qualities of repairman out there.
So even if the world turned on its head and the information you want was available to all engineers, customers would still pay their money and take their chance, and you, if you cared about customers and your reputation would still be advising those customers to seek out and engage the services of someone trained and competent and who has the endorsement of the manufacturer to repair their product.
Its an awful shame that in these times when customers ought to be encouraged to go against mass consumerism, buy responsibly and sustainably, that the one manufacturer who has been abiding by the right principles for a hundred years is being singled out by a few people for criticism on what is a very flaky argument; and one that would apply across the board and which by its very suggestion seeks to undermine what the best achieve in our market place.
Miele appliances have not been of much consequence to independent engineers for over 45 years, and most did not/would not work on them because they could afford not to with or without electronics; as their were’nt that many out there.
It is only as a result of Miele’s phenomanal success and growth in the last 5-10 years that the brand has come under scrutiny here.
Lets face it, given the appauling quality and reliability of the vast majority of the ‘popular’ brands; and their low life expectancy, and given that it makes no economic sense to repair a two year old appliance for around half its original value (typical); increasingly engineers have been left in a replacement market where there are little or no repairs to be done.
Is it any wonder that engineers have been looking for other sources of work and been frustrated that one of the brands that do last; are economically repairable and are now out there in numbers have spent the last 45 years building up a quality repair network that does not need or want additional help; especially as that help would inevitably undermine the quality because it is price lead.
It would be enough for whitegoodshelp and washerhelp etc to recognise the causal need for it; underscore the fact that your unlikely to need repairs on a Miele for a very long time out of the guarantees available, and acknowledge that there is a vast number of independents around the country who already do what K Watt and the others complain of; and even identify and publish the names of those lucky independents who make the grade.
That would be a service to customers and to independents.
We are going round and round in circles again Mark. You just don’t get it do you? We need to agree to disagree as nothing new is being added to the debate.
I, Ken, an unknown but most likely substantial percentage of the public, and the government, all think it is the right of customers to choose who they want to fix the products they buy, and that preventing others from being able to compete in the free market of repairing and maintaining all products is illegal because it creates a monopoly, which the competition commission says is, “bad for customers and the economy”.
You disagree. I accept that, but no amount of excuses you can come up with can change the truth of the above paragraph. Your concern for the general public being ripped off or suffering a low standard of service is laudable but your concerns apply equally to every product ever made. The logical conclusion of your argument is that there should be no independent repairers of any product anywhere, and all repairs should be done only by manufacturers and appointed dealers who can then charge whatever they want – it’s called a monopoly. If that was such a good idea, and the public would be better off, then the government would make it so instead of setting up a monopolies and mergers commission.
Anyone wanting to sympathise with your point of view has thousands of words in your previous comments to read. You’ve exhausted all possible arguments, hopefully you will have confidence enough in your arguments to let people decide for themselves.
Thanks for the speed reading lesson. What waffle, you guys love roundabouts don’t you.
Think yourselves lucky you get 5 and 10 year warranty on Miele products – here in Australia we only get two years warranty.
The service agents are designated by Miele, and there are a number of them – all service businesses that Miele have selected.
What’s the big deal? They let you know, and you have the informed decision to make before you buy.
However, as Miele seem at face value to be better than the rest in reliability and performance, I figure it’s gotta be better than my last piece of junk. I owned a Fisher & Paykel top of the range WL80T65C Aquasmart, and it leaves lint all over the washing. It’s a known fault – have a look at productreview.com.au and do a search for aquasmart.
Having battled for 7 months, I am getting a full refund and so we are going for one of the two base models of Miele. Still, at AU$1699 and $1999 respectively, it’s a big decision, worth researching, which is what has led me here. More info at the au site miele.com.au
It is interesting to read what you say about service errors that need cleared by a magic button combination or a computer. What you don’t say, however, is how often this type of event occurs. I read that it is only on some faults that an error occurs, so why not use the Miele repairer for those faults and use your “no brand” repairer for other faults?
I have just finished a ring around to the local service agents in my area and the biggest concern I have, as raised by more than one repairer, is the cost of parts which is somewhat prohibitive.
So do I buy Miele? Why not. Hopefully if something is going to die it will be in the first two years so the parts will be covered. Otherwise, we will just have to pay. And pay and pay and……